Why are DPS so upset about tanks coming close to their DPS?

Risk vs reward. Unsynced or even overgeared alex normal farming, 6 WARs 2 (1?) healers makes everything significantly more faceroll than it already was.

SE tunes pretty well though so no serious content ever puts DPS at risk from losing their spots to tanks, just DPS at risk from other DPS and tanks at risk from WAR other tanks.

I agree on this. ive met tanks in higher level dungeons, for some odd reason they seemed to be losing hate very often and somehow havent learned how to be keeping people alive and yourself. frustrating as a healer and super annoying for a dps/healer that get targeted.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

You don't, for example, see dragoons with a taunt and defensive buffs as a backup tank and doing the job nearly as good as real tanks.

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You'd be surprised at how often I have to tank bosses whenever I run content on my DRG. It's why I have Foresight cross-classed in case the majority of the damage I'm taking is physical (and for magical, I just pray that the healer can keep me alive and that the tank is able to take the boss off of me). The sad part is: even when I'm unable to land my positionals I'm still able to generate more aggro than the tank and end up getting it back even after using Elusive Jump.

Conversely, I managed to out-DPS a DRG on my DRK throughout the majority--if not the whole run--of Neverreap, and I only dropped Grit during boss fights when damage was lax.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

Conversely, I managed to out-DPS a DRG on my DRK throughout the majority--if not the whole run--of Neverreap, and I only dropped Grit during boss fights when damage was lax.

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Wow. Such DPS. So amazed. Very brag.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Wow. Such DPS. So amazed. Very brag.

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Which says more about the DRG DF paired up with me than it does about my performance. Some people don't even try or aren't that good, yet feel entitled to being the only ones who are supposed to do what their job description entails. Present to them a situation that threatens such entitlement and you get to glean at the insecurities we see being talked about in this thread.

I just find it silly how some DPS feel upset over tanks putting out higher numbers. Speaking as a DPS, I say more power to them for being able to produce good DPS while performing their job properly. I feel the same regarding healers who can assist with DPS when it is safe to do so. The higher the group DPS is while everyone performs their roles to a T, the better it is for everyone. It is funny how people get all uptight about something that benefits everyone.

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Originally Posted by SlyRoyale

Which says more about the DRG DF paired up with me than it does about my performance. Some people don't even try or aren't that good, yet feel entitled to being the only ones who are supposed to do what their job description entails. Present to them a situation that threatens such entitlement and you get to glean at the insecurities we see being talked about in this thread.

I just find it silly how some DPS feel upset over tanks putting out higher numbers. Speaking as a DPS, I say more power to them for being able to produce good DPS while performing their job properly. I feel the same regarding healers who can assist with DPS when it is safe to do so. The higher the group DPS is while everyone performs their roles to a T, the better it is for everyone. It is funny how people get all uptight about something that benefits everyone.

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Shear the sheep, they'll complain it's too cold. Don't shear the sheep, they'll complain it's too hot.

Tanks were always coming reasonably close to dps numbers. Now they all have new toys to play with, and most of them are angled towards increased damage.

I don't see it as a problem either. Us tanks are taking the hits and a lot of the responsibility in the fights, so why shouldn't we be rewarded with numbers to cultivate and improve upon in order to engage us? We still won't do what a dedicated dps class can do, but we will get more blame if something goes wrong.

I don't care about how much DPS tanks pull. They can out dps me, fine, whatever, things die faster good.
What I don't like is the holier-than-thou attitude those types of tanks bring.

because they are bad
its pretty much the reason to all whines

The answer to this is obvious: people don't like it when other people do their job. Especially if they do their 2 jobs at once. The end - no grand theorizing necessary.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

The answer to this is obvious: people don't like it when other people do their job. Especially if they do their 2 jobs at once. The end - no grand theorizing necessary.

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Except no tank is out DPS'ing a competent DPS...

So... yeah.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

The answer to this is obvious: people don't like it when other people do their job. Especially if they do their 2 jobs at once. The end - no grand theorizing necessary.

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You mean staying on the mobs as much as possible doing proper rotations while avoiding any and all AoE so as not to tax the healers? Yeah, I hate having to do DPS's job on top of my own. Allow me to clean your statement a bit:

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Originally Posted by ckc22

The answer to this is obvious: people don't like it when other people can do their job far better than they can. Especially if it's not even due to class mechanics but their own ineptitude. The end - no grand theorizing necessary.

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What parses are you reading that makes you think you come in the top 4?

Dps should be dodging a lot of the attacks, while a tank only has to dodge the critical hits. This only could justify the difference in DPS. The difference on a small pack of trash will seem insignificant. Compare this to a 12-minutes raid where every dps has to run around dodging, and yeah, I'm not surprised the difference could be 300, despite the most optimal damage output by the actual damage dealers.

pvp is nice!!!

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Dps should be dodging a lot of the attacks, while a tank only has to dodge the critical hits. This only could justify the difference in DPS. The difference on a small pack of trash will seem insignificant. Compare this to a 12-minutes raid where every dps has to run around dodging, and yeah, I'm not surprised the difference could be 300, despite the most optimal damage output by the actual damage dealers.

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No... just no. The reason a DPS is doing 300 less than a tank has nothing whatsoever to do with uptime on the target and everything to do with some DPSer's incredibly flawed rotation. There is no excuse for doing 300 DPS less than the tank (or any less than the tank for that matter, while a tank can come close to DPS numbers, actually competent DPSers should still win hands down everytime). In a raid (savage) the tank is likely going to have to spend more time in tank stance (automatic 25% or so dock to their damage) or if the encounter does allow them to swap into DPS stance, they'll have to dodge just as much as the other DPS because they won't have the inherent additional eHP. In Deliverance with full slaying accessories, I'm only maybe 1-2k more HP than DRG/MNK/NIN so I don't have the cushion to just absorb the blows that I could in Defiance.

Uhm.. yes, just yes. Because TOO much moving(to the point where the amount is more than required) can screw with your DPS. I've been out'd by a tank before(and I never beat DRGs but they are very strong anyway) as I know I tend to move unnecessarily and been working on that.

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Originally Posted by Twilite

Uhm.. yes, just yes. Because TOO much moving(to the point where the amount is more than required) can screw with your DPS. I've been out'd by a tank before(and I never beat DRGs but they are very strong anyway) as I know I tend to move unnecessarily and been working on that.

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Moving absolutely does screw with your DPS, no one is going to deny that ever. However, you would have to be doing an absolutely ludicrous amount of non-necessary movement to drop your DPS down 300 below that of the tank, which is a flawed rotation. That's not how the comment I replied to was framed either, it was framed as a "this is the reason why a lot of DPS are so far below the tank", which is absolutely not true because if you're doing your job optimally, there's no reason a tank should win ever. They may come close but they should never win.

I don't know what content you are referring to, but if a tank is out-dpsing the dps, in my experience it's because the dps is crap and has no idea that they are, rather than the dps being decent and the tank being fantastically awesome.

Don't get me wrong, tanks certainly put out a significant amount of dps, but if it genuinely is higher than the dps, those dps are abysmal.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Except no tank is out DPS'ing a competent DPS...

So... yeah.

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An excellent DPS will near to never compensate a bad tank in almost all content. The other way round.. well.


Why should a game with trinity be designed in a way, that one job can be compensated by the other too, only slowing content down (instead of wiping, as it happens when tank/heals are bad).

Hm, maybe we just need more dps-checks, which can't be done by the tank (e.g. Boss has to stay in some position (mandatory) and adds far away must be killed asap), idk.
With some more effort than all those 1-hit-adds like in Fractal pls.

If tanks can take massive damage and have huge HP pool but also deal 60-70% the damage of a dedicated DPS job, maybe they should increase DPS defense and buff our cool downs since DPS have the damage mitigation of a wet tissue right now (until defense scaling rises with higher ilvl to the way it was at Lv50/ilvl130). Shouldn't it be a recipricol? If tanks can specialize in tanking but also dish out 70% of a DPS's damage, shouldn't DPS be able to tank about 70% of what a tank job can defend? Maybe buff Keen Flurry/Forsight as cross class skills, buff Second Wind/Featherfoot, give one or two more defensive cool downs to DRG MNK NIN. Just don't see why tanks can dish out 70% of a DPS job's damage AND be tanks, while DPS deal 30% more than tanks roughly, but take huge amounts of damage.

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

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Sure? You could have that but it wouldn't really change much in the meta. Regardless, a competent DPS does good DPS no matter what the situation is.

A good tank will put out good DPS when he/she is able too. It recquires more than a single person to accomplish that. There has to be a solid understanding of the fight and cooperation of the healers to make that kind of damage output even plausible. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

An excellent DPS will near to never compensate a bad tank in almost all content. The other way round.. well. Why should a game with trinity be designed in a way, that one job can be compensated by the other too, only slowing content down (instead of wiping, as it happens when tank/heals are bad).

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That's kinda true. Good DPS can output damage and perform fight mechanics. If DPS are putting out mediocre numbers and you have a slightly weak healer... then it's gonna be a wipe. Really solid DPS that dodge aoe's and output good damage can make a fight go much faster, which also lowers the stress on the healer and the tank. It's really visible when your in the tank seat if you have good or bad DPS.

Plus the ratio is 1 tank for 2 dps. One DPS might not make that big difference, but 2 good DPS certainly will.

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Dps should be dodging a lot of the attacks, while a tank only has to dodge the critical hits. This only could justify the difference in DPS. The difference on a small pack of trash will seem insignificant. Compare this to a 12-minutes raid where every dps has to run around dodging, and yeah, I'm not surprised the difference could be 300, despite the most optimal damage output by the actual damage dealers.

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We're hitting as we're dodging usually. Look up Dervy's video on Ravana he mentions tagging him with phleb's during the add phases, even when we're dodging aoe's we're still finding ways to sneak hits in. Also, if you're seriously not dodging aoe's as a tank can I ask why?

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

I believe their unique niche is the ability to do more dps than tanks and healers can. You just gotta find dps who aren't completely clueless...if they even exist.

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Wow. I'm seeing a constant pattern here.

Tanks think Healers and DDs are clueless.
Healers think Tanks and DDs are clueless.
DDs think Tanks and Healers are clueless.

Can't we all just get along?

This is just my opinion, but I think all non-Warrior/Scholar/Summoner players are clueless; why waste so much valuable time leveling something other which is downright inferior to those 3 Jobs and their unstoppable prowess.


#shotsfired!!!!! #realizeagagwhenyouseeone

The reason DPS tend to be bad is because there's nothing in leveling content that forces a DPS player to learn rotations aside from sporadic (and very easy) DPS checks.
>inb4 read the tooltips
Clearly these theoretical DPS players with i200 weapons pulling 400 DPS don't read tooltips.
As far as leveling content is concerned:
If your tank doesn't know how to do his job, the party wipes.
If your healer doesn't know how to do his job, the party wipes.
If your DPS doesn't know how to do his job, the run takes 10 minutes longer.

I agree Misha, the people talking about people dealing 400 dps and beating them in damage is just their own unfortunate experiences with bad dps players. I've been on a Neverreap run where a paladin didn't use shield oath the entire time, and a lot of the paladins I saw in leveling hardly used flash so clearly all paladins must never read their tooltips right? I'm sure a lot of paladins would facepalm reading this, it goes the same for dps and as well as healers. People that don't know their class are going to make it look bad.

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

This is just my opinion, but I think all non-Warrior/Scholar/Summoner players are clueless; why waste so much valuable time leveling something other which is downright inferior to those 3 Jobs and their unstoppable prowess.


#shotsfired!!!!! #realizeagagwhenyouseeone

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All hail the three great classes!

Btw, you forgot the hashtag again! I'll remind you every time!

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Originally Posted by Neophyte

An excellent DPS will near to never compensate a bad tank in almost all content. The other way round.. well.


Why should a game with trinity be designed in a way, that one job can be compensated by the other too, only slowing content down (instead of wiping, as it happens when tank/heals are bad).

Hm, maybe we just need more dps-checks, which can't be done by the tank (e.g. Boss has to stay in some position (mandatory) and adds far away must be killed asap), idk.
With some more effort than all those 1-hit-adds like in Fractal pls.

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Please no thank you. Every serious fight in the game right now is a DPS check basically.

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Originally Posted by ckc22

Please no thank you. Every serious fight in the game right now is a DPS check basically.

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but still DPS die in the middle of the match in dps check doesn't mean the party can't do the rest(especially if they have limit break)
but if the tank died(especially in the fight when the boss splits or there are 2 boss
it's like 90 % chance the party will wipe

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Originally Posted by Iagainsti

This is just my opinion, but I think all non-Warrior/Scholar/Summoner players are clueless; why waste so much valuable time leveling something other which is downright inferior to those 3 Jobs and their unstoppable prowess.


#shotsfired!!!!! #realizeagagwhenyouseeone

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This was the most important choice in my entire life and I got it wrong :'(

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Originally Posted by konpachizaraki

but still DPS die in the middle of the match in dps check doesn't mean the party can't do the rest(especially if they have limit break)
but if the tank died(especially in the fight when the boss splits or there are 2 boss
it's like 90 % chance the party will wipe

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This depends on how tight the damage check is. In early progression content, if a DD dies, it is not an immediate whipe, but a slow agonizing trek to the enrage timer. Which, in most cases is worse (to me) than a quick wipe caused by the tank (or healer), as it inspires false hope. Lol

Edit: it also depends (in which fight) which DD goes down and when (as well as what numbers they are pulling). A DD pulling 750 is not as crucial as the one pulling 1200. Within the party, there are (at times) a survival pecking order for which dps have priority to be kept alive.

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Originally Posted by Leonus

This depends on how tight the damage check is. In early progression content, if a DD dies, it is not an immediate whipe, but a slow agonizing trek to the enrage timer. Which, in most cases is worse (to me) than a quick wipe caused by the tank (or healer), as it inspires false hope. Lol

Edit: it also depends (in which fight) which DD goes down and when (as well as what numbers they are pulling). A DD pulling 750 is not as crucial as the one pulling 1200. Within the party, there are (at times) a survival pecking order for which dps have priority to be kept alive.

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On early progression, after we learnt the mechanics and were trying to kill it; we would just wipe the moment anybody died. Pretty much wouldn't make the enrage and/or people just started engaging domino mode. Being said our first kill on A1 was with 3 DD's and a Tank dead lol.

We started like 4 weeks late too (so we had Eso gear). I could only imagine how it would be for 1st week or 2.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

Except no tank is out DPS'ing a competent DPS...

So... yeah.

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Competent dps seem to be very rare though. At least, in my experience they are.

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Originally Posted by HoodRat

Competent dps seem to be very rare though. At least, in my experience they are.

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I don't think it's that rare, but its the same with all the roles. The really good DPS arent using DF at all. I know whenever I go to run something it's in a mostly premade group. Additionally, if you get one good dps and one lackluster dps ( as is the 2:1 ratio of DPS to TANK) then it makes it seem like neither of them is doing much if your focused on something else.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

I don't think it's that rare, but its the same with all the roles. The really good DPS arent using DF at all. I know whenever I go to run something it's in a mostly premade group. Additionally, if you get one good dps and one lackluster dps ( as is the 2:1 ratio of DPS to TANK) then it makes it seem like neither of them is doing much if your focused on something else.

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Many DPS mains also probably have a tank or healer leveled to help with their queue times if they do make use of the DF regularly. I'm no world-class NIN, but I pull respectable numbers--I just tend to heal my Experts and the like most days, both for the faster queue time and because a run with a bad healer is more frustrating than a slow one because of DPS, on a personal level.

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Originally Posted by Phoenicia

All hail the three great classes!

Btw, you forgot the hashtag again! I'll remind you every time!

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Drives me nuts too! If I'm in the field and post from my phone, no sig; when I'm on the desktop in the lab, it adds my sig. I just have to start remembering to manually add it on the phone.

I like to play each class optimally like regardless I don't like half assing things.

So I do not have a problem with Tanks having good dps, like I mean just cause we're tanks doesn't mean we gotta be just turtles <.< I like being my Blastiose thank you.

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Originally Posted by karateorangutang

I don't think it's that rare, but its the same with all the roles. The really good DPS arent using DF at all. I know whenever I go to run something it's in a mostly premade group. Additionally, if you get one good dps and one lackluster dps ( as is the 2:1 ratio of DPS to TANK) then it makes it seem like neither of them is doing much if your focused on something else.

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This. When I run with friends/fc it tends to go substantially faster then df groups. Extreme primal kills are also a joke unlike when I try to pf them.

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Originally Posted by Alahra

If they ever make changes such that it becomes more popular, tank DPS could become an issue, at which point they might take the same route for tanks that they did with healers: deactivating the DPS stances in PvP.

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Jeez so i need to hope pvp stays "dead" in here then? because atm all melees and ranged jobs are pretty much free kills in 1v1(sometimes 1v2 due Push Back being OP as hell against retards!)and only thing that can give fear of death is other tanks(and maybe SMN's if you dont have proper CD's up and ready).