Something need to be done about BAD DPS.

I only do 8 man content, including trials with my static daily. Leveling & daily roulettes are done with friends or fc mates. If you're Dfing its a lot like taking the bus. You could sit next to a hot mess, or a hottie. But if you're taking public trans when you can drive and select your passangers, thats kinda on you guy. Lower your expectations for the general public, there's a reason why its called duty finder. Leave if they're not up to your standards, no reason to pop a blood vessel over some one you're never gonna see again or shame them.

Most players are stupid (since, after all, most people in general are stupid). Most players, statistically, are dps. Of course there's going to be overlap. No amount of handholding, parsers, or whatever else will really help most of those people. Best to just play with friends whenever possible and bail on a roulette that is truly a lost cause.

Recently I brought a laptop, created an alt and downloaded a parser.

My main character is on ps4, I have always been interested in my dps but no way to test.

Tested myself out found I was averaging 800 as a mch on a dummy (no food etc)

I made some alternations and have managed to increase my dps by a further 100 average, having this data available has made me be able to up my game and i will fuether test and improve.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

Exactly. But people who care about it are either running a parser already or playing with someome who does.

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Yes, of course. Most people who care about end-game content also use them. Most people in statics have at least one person who uses them. Etc.
The problem is, it's against ToS, and it's a 3rd party program which might not be up to date with patches, math wrong, etc.
It would be WAY easier if there was some way for people to check at least their own performance without the need of a 3rd-party program.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

It would be WAY easier if there was some way for people to check at least their own performance without the need of a 3rd-party program.

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Which would be pointless to anyone except those on consoles. It won't change the fact that someone being lazy will continue to be lazy so long as there is nothing to point out how lazy they are being. Sure, it will help the handful that don't know how to set up a parser (really takes a few minutes) or someone who doesn't have access via a console, but that is about it. This "fix" fixes nothing in all actuality.

If you're going to put harsh DPS checks in a game that relies on group participation, we need a way to gauge those not pulling their weight and be able to make changes accordingly. It's quite simple. They're not doing it simply because the masses want to "play the way they want" and they don't wish to take a side. This is a amusing considering there is really one way to play (and gear) any of these classes in this game due to the lack of customization.

But hey, we also give losing teams trophies these days. What else is new. Just put the damn parser in the game already and let the player base sort it out.

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Originally Posted by Gugnir

I only do 8 man content, including trials with my static daily. Leveling & daily roulettes are done with friends or fc mates. If you're Dfing its a lot like taking the bus. You could sit next to a hot mess, or a hottie. But if you're taking public trans when you can drive and select your passangers, thats kinda on you guy. Lower your expectations for the general public, there's a reason why its called duty finder. Leave if they're not up to your standards, no reason to pop a blood vessel over some one you're never gonna see again or shame them.

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THANK YOU
Like that's really the crux of the issue, people are queuing into DF expecting clears or farming or people playing with complete knowledge and optimal abilities. Shooting yourself in the foot there. When did the community culture come to expect DF to be for people who knew what they were doing?! When I started it was FOR practice/learning. You used PF for clears/farming. Expecting optimal DPS from DF is frankly a fool's gamble.

Join an FC with other like-minded people. Make some friends. If you're in an FC where it's you and one other guy who 'know what you're doing' and you can't clear endgame content, quit and join another one. There's plenty of FCs out there dedicated solely to endgame and raids who certainly know what all the buttons do. If you solo this game expecting to magically be queued with random strangers who are as dedicated, knowledgeable and gud as you, your dissatisfaction is your own fault.

Edit to add: Honestly, friends and I all think SE should implement two different DFs, one for practice/learning and one for clears/farming. Put strict requirements on the second, make it VERY clear when you queue what you're queuing for, and that would probably cut out half the problem.

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Originally Posted by KaijinRhada

As much as I am a proponent for DPS meters, it won't be a magic fix for people that just don't give a damn.

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SE stated numerous times that there is nothing they can do when someone gets kicked out of a party. It's the party's decision. So when they add an ingame parser, at least we'll have a valid reason to kick people.

There are too many people with this "I dont give a damn about my dps" approach. It's all cool. Add an ingame parser so everyone sees their glorious approach so people can decide whether to mingle with these people or not.

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Originally Posted by Asierid

Which would be pointless to anyone except those on consoles. It won't change the fact that someone being lazy will continue to be lazy so long as there is nothing to point out how lazy they are being. Sure, it will help the handful that don't know how to set up a parser (really takes a few minutes) or someone who doesn't have access via a console, but that is about it. This "fix" fixes nothing in all actuality.

If you're going to put harsh DPS checks in a game that relies on group participation, we need a way to gauge those not pulling their weight and be able to make changes accordingly. It's quite simple. They're not doing it simply because the masses want to "play the way they want" and they don't wish to take a side. This is a amusing considering there is really one way to play (and gear) any of these classes in this game due to the lack of customization.

But hey, we also give losing teams trophies these days. What else is new. Just put the damn parser in the game already and let the player base sort it out.

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There are different levels of laziness.
Some might not be lazy to get better, but are lazy to set up a parser.

Also you really sound like you are underestimating the amount of people playing on consoles.

And while I would be all for implementing party parsers, and just ban people who use the data to bully others, SE is completely against that idea. But there is little reason why they should be against personal parsers, or "DPS-check" minigames.

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

There are different levels of laziness.
Some might not be lazy to get better, but are lazy to set up a parser.

Also you really sound like you are underestimating the amount of people playing on consoles.

And while I would be all for implementing party parsers, and just ban people who use the data to bully others, SE is completely against that idea. But there is little reason why they should be against personal parsers, or "DPS-check" minigames.

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I am well aware that quite a few people do play on consoles and that this would benefit them greatly.

However, there are way more computer players than there are console players when it comes to the MMO market, just how it is. They -are- a small bunch when compared to the overall population. If you are too lazy to take five minutes of your time to set up a parser rather than spending those extra five minutes chain casting Blizzard and holding back the group, said person needs to adjust those priorities a bit.

But yes. Implement it, ban the douche bags. Let those GMs actually do something other than hovering over me for pointing out someone trolling a group and being able to hide behind a vague ruling in the ToS.

A lot of players are simply new, possibly console players who dont really get its not an RPG to be played like any other single player FF game that came before it. They dont know about specific rotations or even trinity roles they have to play, particularly in group content.

I definitely think the game would benefit from adding class/job quests somewhere in the beginning to really go into detail on whats expected and how to do it. I mean HEAVY detail like how to hold hate and pop defensives for tanks. Or even how to efficiently DPS or come up with rotations with a specific class, etc. Healers .... um ... i dunno, how to prepare for heavy AoE's?

Those old enough to have played games like Chrono Cross know what im talking about.
https://youtu.be/caLTx52jEws?t=1m55s

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Originally Posted by CGMidlander

That's an irrational fear.
If the DPS standards set by a person are too high, the person will find themselves with no one to play with.

The bar will be adjusted based on what works.
You can't fill a party if there aren't enough people who meet your criteria. However, if there are enough people who meet the criteria, then there is no problem and the bar is not set too high.

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That is not irrational, is already happening in dungeons, where a DPS who is not supposedly doing enough good according ot others is simply kicked out, when in fact as it has been said above, was doing more then the others, especialyl the tank that took all the aoes in the face expecting the Heals to heal him and when heal ran out of mana because well there is only so much you can do complained he died for ...lack of heals....so saying is irrational is wrong, if there is a parser it would be used and abused just about like the kick option is used and abused.

For the rest, there is a simple answer, if you dont like something just leave, ahh of course, you will take a 30mn penalty, but it would be the right choice to do...few can do it or would do it, they all are affected by the *Superior* mentality thing...keep in mind people NOBODY is perfect why ? because somewhere lies someone that is more perfect then you....rule of thumb of life, applies online too.

Mei

Hey now. Do you have any idea how hard it is to roll my face on the keyboard and eat popcorn?

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

Hey now. Do you have any idea how hard it is to roll my face on the keyboard and eat popcorn?

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Yeah I do.

To Aberzoluut

do you really believe that numbers are enough to judge the ability of someone to play a given role ? Numbers will only tell you how high DPS was, does that make someone bad ? I dont think so, there are other factors to take into consideration in agame where* human* reaciton, action, interaction is very important, if someone is not putting out some good DPS either of the folowing can be the reason
a) not good enough in using abilities
b) having had the whole fight issues with mobs that were not taken by tank or whatever,attacking him or stuff alike
c) limitated but not because of something technical just that the person playing cant do better

now tell me, who are you to say people affected by b&c should be penalized ? because you see their output of DPS might be slightly if not totally off compared to the others, you really think is right ?

Numbers dont tell you all these things, numbers are cold and numbers need to be interpreted..now in all honesty, you and the others are going to interpret the numbers in order to avoid any wrong doing ? ...I know the answer already..but do you ?

Mei

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Originally Posted by Ryel

The Western approach to the Duty Finder:

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I play in a Japanese data center and when I get in a J party, it's normal for people to say "初見です！" if they are new, and the party asks if they need any help with the mechanics, stuff like that.

But when I get in an E party... there is a notice that someone is new and no one says anything. In one party, a dragoon obviously messed up every single thing. Another E player and I, when we saw the dragoon was E, literally asked "are you new? do you need pointers?". The other E player (not the dragoon), then proceeded to detail the mechanics of the fight. It was just a straight up instruction, no sarcasm or anything. The dragoon didn't reply once, didn't follow the instructions, and caused another wipe. We asked again if he needed anything explained... and then this is where it gets funny. Yet another E player said "this is why I hate E parties you're a bunch of elitists".

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAT?

This would help, but would be unlikely to put any real dent in the problem because its impossible to gauge the performance of damage dealers with the tools that exist in the game. Players do not stop by target dummies to test their rotations and they have no bar to which they can compare their output anyway. In groups, its impossible to gauge individual performance because we can only observe the lump sum of the party's combined dps. Even then, comparisons would be relative to other damage dealers, so bad damage dealers further encourage bad damage. The DD role should be burned with fire.

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Originally Posted by Ruri

People who don't care enough to actually try hard to learn playing their job correctly will never improve no matter what learning tools you give them.

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And then FFXIV becomes overrun with Elitist twits and people turn elsewhere to find a more casual friendly MMO....yeah good plan, almost as good as telling people to go back to WoW.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

Numbers dont tell you all these things, numbers are cold and numbers need to be interpreted..now in all honesty, you and the others are going to interpret the numbers in order to avoid any wrong doing ? ...I know the answer already..but do you ?

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Numbers will tell me if a DPS knows how to DPS with his job. You don't need a parser to tell if someone fails mechanics (although it can come in handy to quickly find out why the tank got oneshotted after he claims on TS his mitigation was up, just to find out he took full dmg for example..).

All variables like a horrible pull, or a MNK w/o the right form at the pull, or a NIN w/o a pre huton start up, or a SMN/SCH w/o "double" aeatherflow stacks or the tank losing aggro, or a healer/DPS taking aggro or.. See where I'm going? When you play the game, you will have a general idea of what's going on. One would have a basic idea to what DPS is acceptable.

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Originally Posted by MeiUshu

snip

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Point is, no one cares about the reasons.

Numers are cold, yes, but that is what matters. DPS checks do not take into account the personal or technical circumstances of players.
Assuming the proper management of mechanics (which, frankly, should be a given when discussing dps), no one cares if you are blind and/or without an arm - results are what matters. 7 players should not be slowed down by 1.

It's all based on your role.

DPS hate bad tanks
Healers hate bad tanks
Tanks hate everyone

I suspect what some need to realise, particularly with higher duties in DF at this stage, there are a lot of people still learning, still feeling it out. Not only the new content, but also a number of additional skills to integrate as well. For some jobs it's not just come up with an altered rotation, some are also hindered by movement, and the only way to get around that is to know the entire fight so you can decide best way to handle certain phases, not to mention when they'll start. We're not all super-geared either, which was quite the luxury for a long time. A little patience while people learn wouldn't go astray.

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Originally Posted by Blaste

And then FFXIV becomes overrun with Elitist twits and people turn elsewhere to find a more casual friendly MMO....yeah good plan, almost as good as telling people to go back to WoW.

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It'd be a blessing for that to happen over the countless BRDs I've asked to put on The Wanderer's Minuet at 60 or NINs not using Huton on single target (or even worse, using Doton on single target). These are people who have "friends" and people who have never corrected them on their journey to 60 and will forever be bad DPS. If you are looking for a customizable chat room with an avatar, I reccommend Second Life.

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Originally Posted by averageamn

It'd be a blessing for that to happen over the countless BRDs I've asked to put on The Wanderer's Minuet at 60 or NINs not using Huton on single target (or even worse, using Doton on single target). These are people who have "friends" and people who have never corrected them on their journey to 60 and will forever be bad DPS. If you are looking for a customizable chat room with an avatar, I reccommend Second Life.

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The problem lies in the jargon.

In this day and age, elitist means "capable". Re-read every post on the forums mentally substituting the two words and everything suddenly becomes clear.

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Originally Posted by XiXiQ

I suspect what some need to realise, particularly with higher duties in DF at this stage, there are a lot of people still learning, still feeling it out. Not only the new content, but also a number of additional skills to integrate as well. For some jobs it's not just come up with an altered rotation, some are also hindered by movement, and the only way to get around that is to know the entire fight so you can decide best way to handle certain phases, not to mention when they'll start. We're not all super-geared either, which was quite the luxury for a long time. A little patience while people learn wouldn't go astray.

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Most people won't care about others underperforming as DPS in lower content, unless it causes wipes. Just like most people don't care about healers and tanks underperforming unless they cause wipes.
But at least you will be able to help them, and they will be able to see that they are underperforming, before they hit actual hard content.

I have mixed feelings about parsers inside of the game. I mean if we got a hit counter that gave a total over the course of the fight, that would be one thing... but what people seem to really want is scoreboard with players being given grades on how good they are. When this happens, how long will it take before "Prove that you can get B or better on ___ or insta kick"?

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Originally Posted by Kerii

I have mixed feelings about parsers inside of the game. I mean if we got a hit counter that gave a total over the course of the fight, that would be one thing... but what people seem to really want is scoreboard with players being given grades on how good they are. When this happens, how long will it take before "Prove that you can get B or better on ___ or insta kick"?

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That would be only for raid content and statics. I'm pretty certain that people wouldn't want to throw around that 4 hour cooldown on a votekick timer, unless the person was truly a living potato.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

I have mixed feelings about parsers inside of the game. I mean if we got a hit counter that gave a total over the course of the fight, that would be one thing... but what people seem to really want is scoreboard with players being given grades on how good they are. When this happens, how long will it take before "Prove that you can get B or better on ___ or insta kick"?

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This is exactly how it should be used, tho. If an entire group is failing because of 1 person, it is only logical to remove said person. No need to take it personal, it is just..."different playstyles".

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Originally Posted by averageamn

That would be only for raid content and statics. I'm pretty certain that people wouldn't want to throw around that 4 hour cooldown on a votekick timer, unless the person was truly a living potato.

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Originally Posted by Remilia_Nightfall

This is exactly how it should be used, tho. If an entire group is failing because of 1 person, it is only logical to remove said person. No need to take it personal, it is just..."different playstyles".

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If you read what I've stated again, I'm not referring to farm groups, statics, or even duty finder groups where it's just getting to be unbearable. I'm talking about party finder where every single item in the list reads "Know the fight or be kicked."

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Originally Posted by Kerii

I have mixed feelings about parsers inside of the game. I mean if we got a hit counter that gave a total over the course of the fight, that would be one thing... but what people seem to really want is scoreboard with players being given grades on how good they are. When this happens, how long will it take before "Prove that you can get B or better on ___ or insta kick"?

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When the tank loses aggro on a frequent basis, they get kicked.
When the healer lets people die on a frequent basis, they get kicked.
When anyone fucks up mechanics on a frequent basis, they get kicked.

So both tanks and healers can get easily kicked for 2 reasons, while DPS only for one? Why? Why are DPS cared for better than babies?

SE could add a game in Gold Saucer so they can learn their rotations.

Something like Parapa the rapper. The skills to input scroll up at the top of the screen and they need to enter it.

It would be something that both casuals and more experimented players would enjoy.

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Originally Posted by Kerii

If you read what I've stated again, I'm not referring to farm groups, statics, or even duty finder groups where it's just getting to be unbearable. I'm talking about party finder where every single item in the list reads "Know the fight or be kicked."

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So find another party?

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Originally Posted by sirDarts

When the tank loses aggro on a frequent basis, they get kicked.
When the healer lets people die on a frequent basis, they get kicked.
When anyone fucks up mechanics on a frequent basis, they get kicked.

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Um, what world are you living in?

If the tank loses aggro on a regular basis, DPS and Healer should watch their aggro.
If the healer lets people die often, they are tired or distracted lolcalmdown it's just a game.
If people can't do mechanics, they don't play 24/7.

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Originally Posted by averageamn

Um, what world are you living in?

If the tank loses aggro on a regular basis, DPS and Healer should watch their aggro.
If the healer lets people die often, they are tired or distracted lolcalmdown it's just a game.
If people can't do mechanics, they don't play 24/7.

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I'll add two for you. If the tank takes five times more damage than she's supposed to, she just has 300ms latency. If the dps is too low, the BLM is actually totally blind in one eye and nearly blind in the other.

If a tank and healer aren't doing their job properly you can say something to them.

If a DPS is doing bad DPS you're not allowed to say a thing or you run the risk of getting banned for parsing.

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Originally Posted by averageamn

If you are looking for a customizable chat room with an avatar, I reccommend Second Life.

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The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem.

This type of behavior is why SE has, and always will, frown on the use of third party programs to see the mathematical efficiency of a players DPS. By focusing only on that number, you're reducing the player to nothing more than a statistic. This type of tunnel-vision fosters a type of behavior that can be a negative experience for other players. Who are, you should remember, customers before they're "bad DPS." I'm not saying that they shouldn't attempt to learn to be better, but this community's habit of just flat out alienating large swathes of players for relatively minor infractions needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

This type of tunnel-vision fosters a type of behavior that can be a negative experience for other players.

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What about the negative experience THEY give other players? Who then have to carry their slack or simply fail the DPS checks SE love so much.

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Originally Posted by Totobi

What about the negative experience THEY give other players? Who then have to carry their slack or simply fail the DPS checks SE love so much.

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I'm not saying you have to carry them or hold their hand. I'm just saying that the programs have a tendency to make people see other players only in terms of their mistakes. If the bad players are jerks and refuse to follow advice, then I say people have the right to kick them from the party and replace them. However, it's the attitude of many of the veteran players I have a problem with. Many of them leave no room for players who are competent but unfamiliar with the mechanics of certain fights. Which, to me, appears to be detrimental to the overall success of the game. Much of this games later end content is heavily dependent on memorization and experience. If a player has no chance to learn from their mistakes, they will never learn.

I think people on both sides of the parser argument are being hyperbolic. Nothing would change whatsoever were they to add parsers. People who are elitist are going to be elitist no matter what, and are already doing so. They will always find some reason to kick you or be a jerk, because that's just the kind of person they are. And many of them are already using parsers and kicking people for low DPS. People with the desire to get better are already going to find ways to improve their play, with or without their own parser. They'll be looking up proper rotations, trying them out on dummies, finding friends who do have parsers to run numbers on them, etc.

Adding an in game parser would simply be a quality of life change for (mostly) console users who do want to improve their play. Personally, as a PS4 player, I can get numbers if I need them from a friend. But I feel like I'm nagging when I'm constantly asking for how well I did and I'd much rather just have that information available for me to access myself. It also would allow me to help theorycraft intricacies of my own rotation without forcing someone else to use their time helping me.

tldr: parser numbers are already abundant. Anyone who wants them can get them one way or another. Adding an in game parser would simply remove the hoop jumping you currently have to go through to get it. (They could even make the parsers an option that you turn on or off, and have it default off. If you want it, turn it on in the options. If you don't care, don't!)

This not only happens on 8 man content, on dungeons too as well. I recently meet a DRG on research facility that was doing the same atack over and over again. No rotations, damage buffs, dragon blood, etc Nothing lol

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Originally Posted by Kezy_Kaatapoh

Adding an in game parser would simply be a quality of life change for (mostly) console users who do want to improve their play.

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Tbh the first step to get better on PS4 is to get a PC. Then getting a parser.

Ok, sorry, but I had to say it. I know, I am a d**k.

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Originally Posted by Eisen-Zorn

The problem is not the problem. The problem is your attitude about the problem.

This type of behavior is why SE has, and always will, frown on the use of third party programs to see the mathematical efficiency of a players DPS. By focusing only on that number, you're reducing the player to nothing more than a statistic. This type of tunnel-vision fosters a type of behavior that can be a negative experience for other players. Who are, you should remember, customers before they're "bad DPS." I'm not saying that they shouldn't attempt to learn to be better, but this community's habit of just flat out alienating large swathes of players for relatively minor infractions needs to stop.

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The problem with this negative outlook on parsers is based purely on anecdotal evidence. In WoW, and other mmos, I've always used parsers as a method of comparing what I did wrong and right as far as damage (there are detailed breakdowns available in all) when comparing to other classes in the same encounter.

It is also a tool to see where improvement can be made, unfortunately SE does not offer an alternative metric for measuring a DPS class's (or tanks now too) performance.

The third, and least popular reason, is that it lets you identify weak links. While I know you may like to be nice, if there is a DPS that is pulling the same Damage as your MT or Healer, they are clearly not doing their job.

When tanks mess up its obvious.
When a healer misses a heal or ooms, you know it.
When a DPS messes up, currently, you only find out 5-10 minutes into a boss fight when you hit an enrage, an add doesn't die, or they stand in fire. All of these, aside from the last, are hard to pinpoint issues. It is not fair to people playing their class properly to have to share the blame, or carry, someone that is not able or willing to do the same.