Parsers make you stupid

Parsers do not make people stupid.

People that are stupid are stupid with or without parsers.

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Originally Posted by KyrsIsley

^this. Ignorance makes people stupid. Parsers are just a means for them to harass you. Take some screenshots and report those people for harassment.

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LOL the amount of wrong in this one sentence.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Parsers do not make people stupid.

People that are stupid are stupid with or without parsers.

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exactly correct

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Originally Posted by Fendred

However, the only way to know for certain if you are doing well as a damage dealer is to have a good parser and a rotation guide. Over the years, a lot of us WoW vets developed a type of "common MMO sense" for doing damage because everyone used the same general combat system. New players who have never played an MMORPG before are left to the mercy of their gaming background. Some experiences will transfer well to a theme park MMORPG like FFXIV:ARR, while others don't hold up.

As long as damage dealer is a role and enrage mechanics are present, parsers will become indispensable tools for conquering hard content. There really is no way around it.

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For hard content youll be playing with people who probably all consent to thier use. The real problem is the toxicity they create in pf/df.

I could see an ingame parser for alex savage. A parser used in any other way is just harassment.

Mama always said, "stupid is as stupid does"

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

For hard content youll be playing with people who probably all consent to thier use. The real problem is the toxicity the create in pf/df.

I could see an ingame parser made avaliable in alex savage. A parser used in any other way is just harassment.

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Is it now? So if we're failing A1 normal because you're doing a whole 400 DPS for whatever reason, me telling you that you need to step your game up is harassment?

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Originally Posted by m3eansean

You should be self-conscious. This is a group activity. IRL, if you are on a team or at work and see that you are clearly under-performing compared to your colleagues, most human beings would attempt to better themselves so they don't feel the shame of letting the group down. Why can't this aspect of social behavior be extended to a game where you must socialize to succeed?

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You have a point, but in a group full of random people it really doesn't matter so long as things are progressing smoothly.

In a savage progression group, they do fulfill a purpose because if someone is dragging the group down it helps to know who. But if you're not doing progression, it shouldn't matter. (because if things are going sour outside of savage it's probably a problem with more than one person).

Personal parsers would be great so you can know how well that you alone are doing, without having to compare yourself to others. Then again, you're probably not going to perform to your maximum potential in any given fight due to how movement heavy they can be. People might start standing in bad stuff in an attempt to maximize themselves.

I had a DRG doing that the other day on the last boss of Fractal continuum, he wouldn't move away from the boss unless there were adds, he stood on active pads and bombs in an attempt to maximize his dps, thus causing the rest of the group to suffer for every bomb he stepped on.

TLDR: People who are focused on their dps output aren't focused on their environment.

I'd be interested to see my own DPS, I don't care about the damage other players do, though. I don't play any raiding content (except for Alexander Easy), so I don't need to do the biggest of biggest DPS, but I want to do some solid damage; of course.
Thus, I think you ARE allowed to use "fun" as some kind of an excuse and, at least in my opinion, it's okay if you're a casual player (god, I hate that word) and do less damage than all those Hardcore Raiders. Sure, you should know your class, but there's no need to make fun of people due to their damage. With that said, it's okay to friendly ask for trying harder, just don't be harsh or too judgmental.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Is it now? So if we're failing A1 normal because you're doing a whole 400 DPS for whatever reason, me telling you that you need to step your game up is harassment?

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Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

This is not a problem with the parser, this is just a problem with someone who doesn't know how to read a parser.

Back when I had a static for second coil we were running into issues where one of our bards' dps was significantly lower than the others. Using a parser I was able to first off tell that there was a discrepancy but I was also able to look at the differences in their accuracy, crit rates, damage per hit, ability usage, we were able to tell of this was a problem due to gear or some foible in playstyle.

Because of my parser we were able to see what specifically was different and were able to fix the problem, once the bard knew specifically where he was going wrong he was able to put out nearly the same dps as the other bard.

Blaming douchebaggery on parsers won't stop people from being rude. This game fosters a lack of personal accountability both jn playstyle as well as in attitude. In the duty finder people are free to be as rude and obnoxious as they want because the chance that they will see anyone in that group ever again is extremely remote. Furthermore up until you get into raid tier content you can succeed without using optimal playstyles.

That and the internet in general seems to bring out the worst aspects of humanity.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

More and more people seem to be using them. I loathe them, to be honest - they bring the sort of toxicity into the game that I want to leave behind after encountering it in other MMO's.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

For hard content youll be playing with people who probably all consent to thier use. The real problem is the toxicity they create in pf/df.

I could see an ingame parser for alex savage. A parser used in any other way is just harassment.

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Parsers do not cause toxicity. Players doing the same static content over and over again builds toxicity. There is a point where players don't really want to be doing the content, but are there anyway because of the weekly grind or social agreements. Plus damage dealing isn't something intuitive enough for an untrained human being to pick up like tanking or healing. The signs that someone is doing it right are hidden in a mountain of numbers. The parser is just performing the courtesy of adding those up for you. Depending on perspective, the problem is either people not looking at the numbers in the context of the situation at hand or the very existence of damage dealer as a role.

Parsers don't make better players, knowing your class inside and out does. Parser as a tool is good though but not if it causes people to start being dicks and ignoring mechanics just to get higher dps. Tunnel vision I think is top reason why raids wipe.

Parsers, like many artificial 'aids' to play in games change the nature of the game. IMHO, over use and over dependence on parser data makes people pay overly much attention to their damage numbers at the expense of everything else - and in particular working as a team and performing their role excellently.

Tanks should be more attentive to aggro management, damage mitigation, picking up adds, making sure the healer doesn't get left in the crap, that kind of thing; but NOT paying more attention to maximizing their damage output for their parse. Healers should be paying attention to tank health, watching aggro, checking statuses, keeping half an eye on the damage dealers we all know forget to evade AoE attacks and making sure they are safe themself; long before even thinking about looking at their damage numbers for their parse. Damage dealers should be paying attention to target priority, position, evading AoE attacks, watching the amount of aggro they build, keeping an eye on the healer so they don't get stuck on a limb, when possible maintaining their rotations, and of course managing their DPS checks carefully; long before they start focusing on their DPS numbers for a parse.

The point is that a dead tank is no use even if their parsed DPS output was record breaking. A healer that can out DPS BRD or MCH consistently is utterly pointless if tanks or damage dealers are dying during the fight. Damage dealers with record parsed DPS re only useful if they can maintain that high output without requiring everyone else in the party to compromise their roles to support the all out DPS play focused solely on maintaining peak DPS regardless of incoming AoE or damage.

I'd have thought that people would have woken up to the fact that when everyone plays their role to the max, the team as a whole functions better than it does when everyone is trying to out DPS each other; because DPS is king and some pillock with a parser might criticize their play because their DPS is somehow to low. As if the arbitrary standard, set by said pillock, is somehow an objective measure of a player's ability, rather than a measure of said pillocks' tunnel vision.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

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Then going by that logic, it's also considered harassment to others to queue up for an 8 man raid while not knowing your job or rotation.

If a fights mechanics are being executed fine, yet they're still pulling a whole 400 DPS, then there isn't much you can do to help them. Especially if you do not know their class, and anything you do tell them should have been stuff they learned on their own, if they put any tiny ounce of effort into it.

A1 is literally a practice dummy fight, there is absolutely no reason someone should be that low in DPS, AS A DPS JOB, unless they're screwing up so damn bad and have no idea what any of their abilities even do. It's their job to know the job they're playing as, not mine. If they're holding the group back with low DPS and we're hitting enrage timers because of it, it's their problem, not mine, especially if I'm doing more DPS than they are in my tanking stance the entire time.

It's their problem. If I know the job they're playing enough to point out what they're doing wrong and give them tips, I will, but 90% of the time the person turns out to be a snobby "Don't tell me how to play my job" idiot who gets attitude with you for trying to offer advice. But if they've created a problem for themselves by not reading a damn thing or paying attention to a single thing while leveling, that is their problem.

Though I'm sure many of the people against parsers in this thread are those exact kinds of people.

Some people say public parsers should be allowed because otherwise dps players have it much easier than tanks and healers whos performance can easily be judged. The way I see it, tanks and healers have it easier (at least outside savage) because when they get to certain skill level the only way to improve is to help another role (dps). Dps however has no "skill cap" to reach, and people demand more and more so that runs go faster.

Tank skills: (can't use cd or hold aggro)---------------(holds aggro and uses cd)

Healer skills: (heals too little, people die)-------------(heals enough without overhealing)

Dps skills: (too little dps, enrage)-----------------------(does enough dps)--------(more dps)----(more dps)----(more dps)--->

The problem with pugs is that if they are parsing they will demand higher than "enough dps", especially if the content has been out for a long time. I saw dps complaints regularly in Crystal Tower when I first started playing, even though the groups never wiped to enrage. This is why I don't think the game should ever allow public parsers. It would be used for measuring epeen, harassing others and demanding dps performance above the requirement. A personal parser however would be fine and it could even discourage people from downloading the group parsers, and therefore reduce the negative effects I described above.

Parsers are the most useful tool dps have. I support there use. Any person created group should be able to use them. Any DF group should only show yourself. People who form groups including PF should be able to see the groups dps. If some people are holding the group back, they should be removed. Why should my time be wasted because you are not capable of pulling your own weight. I don't play games to give charity clears to strangers, my play time is valuable. People who expect a carry are worse than elitist jerks. And some people don't know they are not that good, and may need to learn to get better. Many years ago I was a keyboard turning clicking newb. I got a bunch of crappie for it, but I didn't know any better. I decided to change how I played. And I'm grateful for the asshats who drove me to it. I've become a good player.

High dps can also hold back the party, and when they do remove them? If everyone did that no one would learn. DPS when you can, but not sacrificing survivability. Do not over stress your healer. Also don't ever have to touch a parser to do high dps that comes naturally as you learn your class and how to handle bosses and their mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

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Saying "you need to step your game up" is needed occasionally in expert dungeons because a sometimes people are unnaturally bad. I've had been in LS in the past where I refused to run dungeons with several people because they were so bad, NOT because they couldn't play, but because they were always watching netflix, surfing imgur/reddit, whatever while playing and either just hit a macro to do an attack rotation or spammed only a single ability. There's not so good dps/heals/tanking and there's obviousily I either bought this account or not playing attention bad.

Lower dps/heals/tanking I can deal with if they are undergeared, newish, or reasonably close. Unfortunitly I have been running into alot of PTs in daily experts were 1 or 2 players are obviousily not trying and they are horribly bad. They I call out and vote kick sometimes if they don't step up. At level 60 its not my job to explain to someone how to play their class reasonably.

I can be patient for reasonable reasons, but if your making a dungeon run take double or triple the normal time because your too busy watching TV, or never bothered trying to understand the basics of your dps rotation at 60, I got no time for that.

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Originally Posted by Ferth

This is not a problem with the parser, this is just a problem with someone who doesn't know how to read a parser.

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And? What's the point of saying this? Of course there's nothing inherently wrong with parsers. SE has one of their own. The problem is the community at large cannot be trusted to us them properly such that they do far far more harm then good.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

If a fights mechanics are being executed fine, yet they're still pulling a whole 400 DPS, then there isn't much you can do to help them.

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There's a reason why that person isn't doing better dps. Bad gear. Not paying attention. Doesn't know mechanics. It's not an uncaused quantum fluctuation. There's a reason for it. If you can't offer up a solution then you're even more useless then the person doing poor dps.

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Originally Posted by ShinTofu

I can be patient for reasonable reasons, but if your making a dungeon run take double or triple the normal time because your too busy watching TV, or never bothered trying to understand the basics of your dps rotation at 60, I got no time for that.

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The thing is, this is not a problem that using a parser can solve. People who can't be bothered to focus on the game, or who haven't learned to play their class are always going to be a liability. Let's be honest, any decent player can tell during play whether anyone is significantly under-performing - without the aid of a parser. A parser is no help in this situation at all, except as a tool to harass another player - which is of course why we don't have a parser already.

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Originally Posted by Meya

Parsers don't make better players, knowing your class inside and out does. Parser as a tool is good though but not if it causes people to start being dicks and ignoring mechanics just to get higher dps. Tunnel vision I think is top reason why raids wipe.

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The worst tank I ever saw had a great parse. It was in EQ2, I was healing and he was out dps'ing all of our dps. It was easy for him since his gear far exceeded everyone else since it was from the top raids at the time. He couldn't hold ago to save his life, literally. The dps couldn't obliterate the mobs in a normal dungeon pickup group like his raid guild buddies. So, the mobs were up long enough that he actually needed to use taunts and tank stance couldn't have hurt either. So, he topped the parse but kept causing everyone to die because of it. Thankfully, he left after only a few pulls.

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Originally Posted by averageamn

If a monk was outdpsing a BRD in a dungeon, you were failing to AoE efficiently.

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Aside from how completely it doesn't matter if someone is doing slightly suboptimal DPS on random useless trash pulls:

This isn't even really true, when you're talking about well geared groups near the end of the 2.5 lifetime.

Quick Knock/Wide Volley (rain of death is 100 so we'll ignore it for now) do 110 potency per GCD. Flaming arrow does 35 potency ever 3 seconds. Rockbreaker does 130 potency.

Depending on the size and frequency of the pulls a monk can pop perfect balance, do 130 potency + 15% GL + 5% fists of fire every GCD (adding up to ~156 potency every GCD, or more accurately 137 potency -> 143 potency -> 150 potency -> 156 -> 156 -> PB off = 149 average potency per GCD over the first 5 attacks) AoE on, likely, shorter GCDs (skillspeed bonus from GL) than the bard who is doing about 140 potency (35/3 = 11.6 x 2.5 = 29 potency per GCD--less with a shorter GCD + 110 = 139, I rounded up) every GCD. And that's not even including howling fist, because it's unlikely to hit EVERY enemy, but if you do it brings monk average AoE potency over those first five attacks to 183 (also not counting using steel peak on the main target once during that either).

Depending on how much longer the fight lasts than the perfect balance, which shouldn't be long if you have a bard using the proper AoE rotation on top of this, it's entirely possible for a monk to outdps a Bard on AoE.

Granted that's only if there's enough time before the boss that the monk is using PB on trash knowing they'll have it up for their opener at the boss (or if the monk decides clearing the trash efficiently is more important than having PB for the boss--which is the case sometimes when a tank over pulls and you really need to get rid of this trash before the healer's CDs run out), and if most of the trash dies in like 6 or 7 GCDs, after which the Archer will begin to catch up to and then eclipse the monk again, but assuming a bard being beaten in AoE by monk means shitty bard is. . . wrong. More so now with bard not getting any more AoEs, to the best of my knowledge, while monk picked up Elixir Field (and form shift to allow opening in couerl to rockbreaker -> PB for 6 GCDs of better potency per GCD instead of 5).

TL;DR: In 2.55, over the first 5 GCDs of an encounter a monk averaged about 10 more potency per GCD than a bard if using their AoE rotation--which is, admittedly, limited due to the CDs you have to use.

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Originally Posted by Sakei

The worst tank I ever saw had a great parse. It was in EQ2, I was healing and he was out dps'ing all of our dps. It was easy for him since his gear far exceeded everyone else since it was from the top raids at the time. He couldn't hold ago to save his life, literally. The dps couldn't obliterate the mobs in a normal dungeon pickup group like his raid guild buddies. So, the mobs were up long enough that he actually needed to use taunts and tank stance couldn't have hurt either. So, he topped the parse but kept causing everyone to die because of it. Thankfully, he left after only a few pulls.

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A parser wouldn't helped in that :P however in EQ2 as a paladin in that game I could ignore tanking aspect and focus on just damage dealing. Not sure why that guy was doing it, maybe he wasn't actually built to tank? His AA could have been spent into the DD part of the tree. EQ2 has a lot more variety in their classes then this game has.

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Originally Posted by ivyblue

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Parsers are good, but stop playing with trash already lol. if someone bat mouthed my dps and I was getting targeted often with mechanics I'd hang him out to dry. It takes a moron to reach that level of stupidity.

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Originally Posted by Meya

High dps can also hold back the party, and when they do remove them? If everyone did that no one would learn. DPS when you can, but not sacrificing survivability. Do not over stress your healer. Also don't ever have to touch a parser to do high dps that comes naturally as you learn your class and how to handle bosses and their mechanics.

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Learning is fine, if the group is ok with it. Parsers also show damage taken so you can see what is killing people. But we already have tools to see people who don't do mechanics, eyeballs and healers. You're right about the parser and high dps. You just have to go to a Web page where some math nerd took a bunch of parses and crunched the numbers to figure out the optimal way to play the class. BTW I love you math nerds and all the people who put in the time and work on theory crafting.

Parsers are a tool, tools are not to blame for their missuse, is not a hammer`s fault that someone kills other with it.

The intended use of parsers is to see and evaluate performance, people usually don`t know how to evaluate and how to generate a good evualation and performance increase enviroment, and then, you have mmorpg people which is just worse. They faithfully think they are doing just fine when they say "uhh, you suck scrub, DPS too low". They think they are great and that will motivate you to perform better.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

Learning is fine, if the group is ok with it. Parsers also show damage taken so you can see what is killing people. But we already have tools to see people who don't do mechanics, eyeballs and healers. You're right about the parser and high dps. You just have to go to a Web page where some math nerd took a bunch of parses and crunched the numbers to figure out the optimal way to play the class. BTW I love you math nerds and all the people who put in the time and work on theory crafting.

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Can a parser show a tank's TP because when I played a ninja I never knew when to throw out a goude >> Think they'd allow us to see TP already.

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Originally Posted by Meya

Can a parser show a tank's TP because when I played a ninja I never knew when to throw out a goude >> Think they'd allow us to see TP already.

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'course the tank could always have a macro to ping party chat with a message, something like; "MT TP < 150, please help."

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

There's a reason why that person isn't doing better dps. Bad gear. Not paying attention. Doesn't know mechanics. It's not an uncaused quantum fluctuation. There's a reason for it. If you can't offer up a solution then you're even more useless then the person doing poor dps.

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Ah, I see not only are you the type of person who shouts HELP GM IM BEING HARASSED when someone tells you that you need to step your DPS up, you're also the kind of person who doesn't raid (Otherwise you would know that minimum ilvl requirements are a thing), and you have selective reading.

Ok. No point in continuing this then.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Ah, I see not only are you the type of person who shouts HELP GM IM BEING HARASSED when someone tells you that you need to step your DPS up, you're also the kind of person who doesn't raid (Otherwise you would know that minimum ilvl requirements are a thing), and you have selective reading.

Ok. No point in continuing this then.

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You're so proving my point about the community now being about to handle parsers.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

You're so proving my point about the community now being about to handle parsers.

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Not really no, all that's being proven is you cant take any type of criticism at all from others regarding anything you do, without running off to report them for harassment.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

There's a reason why that person isn't doing better dps. Bad gear. Not paying attention. Doesn't know mechanics. It's not an uncaused quantum fluctuation. There's a reason for it. If you can't offer up a solution then you're even more useless then the person doing poor dps.

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There is a solution, but it's on the person to ask. Go look on the forums. Most the topics about "how do I get better" or "I need help" are full of people being helpful and offering advice. But on the other hand you have topics of "class X is bad, it needs a buff" when in reality it doesnt, the op gets told its a learn to play issue, which it usually is.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Absolutely. Saying "you needed to step your game up" is beyond useless and does nothing to actually solve the problem that I consider it harassment. Offer some real constructive advice (ie mechanics, rotations, etc) or gtfo.

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Wait so people should know how to play your class as well as their own? No, thats not how it works. Do some research, practice on target dummies and eat some food.

I personally will call people out if theyre terrible.

Its not correct if the only people that can take flak are tanks and healers because their fails are the most visible.

But if I'm out dpsing your i185 Monk on my i161 Summoner on a single target fight or anything for that matter, there is something very very wrong.

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Originally Posted by averageamn

Instead of using a one-liner with an era 2000 emoticon, could you expand?

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You missed the point. He was "underperforming", and yet the dungeon was cleared in 16 minutes. Parsers make people focus on a number, not clearing content.

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Originally Posted by Ditto

Not really no, all that's being proven is you cant take any type of criticism at all from others regarding anything you do, without running off to report them for harassment.

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I've never once reported anyone for harassment. Never had a need to.

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Originally Posted by Badkarma

Wait so people should know how to play your class as well as their own? No, thats not how it works. Do some research, practice on target dummies and eat some food.

I personally will call people out if theyre terrible.

Its not correct if the only people that can take flak are tanks and healers because their fails are the most visible.

But if I'm out dpsing your i185 Monk on my i161 Summoner on a single target fight or anything for that matter, there is something very very wrong.

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Of course not. Just don't be an ass if someone doesn't know how to play their class as well as you know how to play yours.

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Originally Posted by Rin_Kuroi

Of course not. Just don't be an ass if someone doesn't know how to play their class as well as you know how to play yours.

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I expect people to know how to play their class to a competent level.

I expect people to have a basic knowledge of fights in raids and trials.

I do not expect people to be a member of Elysium or Lucrezia in disguise.

But when people mistake a cry for competence as the shunnings of an elitist, they get mad.

I'll be quoting myself, because I'm lazy, but I'd like to remind everyone about this neat tidbit about parsing:

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Originally Posted by Waliel

There's more to parsing than just DPS. We did our first real venture into T13 this thursday and kept wondering why is our WHM randomly dying on Megaflare stacks. Checking out our trusty parser, it turned out she was hit twice by Megaflare for 5k+. We adjusted by telling everyone to spread out a little more and never had the issue again.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I'll be quoting myself, because I'm lazy, but I'd like to remind everyone about this neat tidbit about parsing:

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I'm pretty sure your WHM's battle log could have revealed that information as well, no parser required.