Curious on opinion. Smn or Mch. Which would you pick?

And I don't understand why every debate needs to turn into one party flinging insults at the other. If you want to make points, make them and leave the insults out of it. Calling names doesn't help your debate any and just makes you look childish. I have not insulted you at all, please have the courtesy to do the same. And don't make assumptions about me-- I also play a Ninja and Dragoon and think they're perfectly fine. And for the record, I'm a MCH, not a BRD. Brds have better utility than us (foe's requiem and easier use of mp/TP regen).

As someone who has mained SCH since release let me be clear in what I personally prefer to have in my party when I heal.

A SMN can offset damage, something I take to heart. Supervirus + Eye for an Eye will never be trivial in my mind. Never. Damage migation is my thing and anyone helping that is golden. HOWEVER the most crucial thing to me is the fact SMN can revive. THAT IS NOT TRIVIAL WHATSOEVER. I do not give a crap what anyone says, it is the biggest relief when both healers die in a raid (for whatever reason) and a smn comes along and revives one of us.

... In a less dramatic situation though if someone dies and a smn revives them (like a dps) then that saves us like 2.5k mp or something around that. That is a big deal because multiple revives sustained by a healer is ridiculously costly and can cause the raid to wipe later on when stronger heals are needed and the healer is already drained half way through.


However for smoother runs for SUPPORT ALONE I like BRD/MCH mana songs. To me the rest of the utility the MCH brings is too undertuned to notice. IE: Supervirus reduces ALL stats for a single target by 15% for a longer duration than dismantle/rend mind. MCH's puny 5% (and I have a 60 MCH) is not something I notice when I heal. Sure, throw it up whatever makes you feel better, but healing with or without it I don't feel the difference. I feel it with supervirus though or eye for an eye though. I realize it isn't some crazy difference in numbers but realize that it 3x or 4x higher than MCH's offering.

really both are alright. really its just which one you like better.

smn does considerably more damage then mch as mch is on the lowest tier of dps along with bard, both of them compete for spots on party as the "support dps"

smn is really strong right now but is a tad bit more complicated then it already was but still not that hard to get a hang of and its focus is for the most part pure killing power unlike mch. oh but it can res which is a nice tool. it competes with blm for spots in party's as you don't want more then 1 caster most of the time.

while smn has the same supervirus and eye for an eye as sch. your not going to be using supervirus that much tbh, as it has a 90 sec cd and prevents any other viruses to be placed for 60 seconds (the healers for example who should be the ones placing it because they work around it being up for some hard hitting moves) eye for an eye however is free mitigation that should be put on when you see your healers about to fall off.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Ok, let's look at this from another angle. You're a SMN..

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No offense but I haven't seen people taking summoner over a bard during 2.0.. Even if we were top dps back then, if melee and tanks run out of tp then rip dps ESPECIALLY on stationary bosses which was the case during final coil. Not to mention long fights/instances that will eat up healers mp, there no way a virus can even help with that or a res tbh because that res will also eat up a major chunk of smn's mp and they will ask for mp eventually. There is a difference between being able to refresh your party's resources(tp/mp) during challenging progression and waiting for someone to drop dead or take a hit to use your resources. People are seriously underestimating mch and brd's utility before alex savage is out, I don't even know...

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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Unless they legitimately make huge changes to current alexander fight mechanics (As in, getting rid of the jumps on A1, have faster spawn timers on A2, Tuning down the amount of phasing in A3, and the final phase in A4 is more than half the fight), TP songs won't be needed because the amount of sheer downtime for melee classes. MP song is (and has always) been dependent on the healers and their mana management.

And content outside of cutting-edge raiding is still a thing, whether or not you acknowledge how important it is.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Unless they legitimately make huge changes to current ..

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Unless SE messes up the difficulty of savage and makes it a joke I doubt any of the savage content is gonna take anything less than 5 mins to finish with downtime, knowing the usual progression difficulty it will likely consume time, effort and proper planning. There will be hard hitting cleaves like always and dps races like always so if those exist, tp/mp depletion will follow. As for normal content outside of progression or difficult content, those do not require high damage output or extreme utility usage, it's balanced.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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I'm talking about the amount of downtime that occurs during the clear time. It could take 10 minutes to clear without factoring downtime, but the matter of fact is that the time transition for A1/A3 bosses jumping/water taxiing is long enough for melees to catch their breath with TP. Same with healer mp except that's also mitigated with familiarity of the fight and the inevitable overgearring as you clear it or as it gets older.

The design philosophy just doesn't sit right for me if cutting-edge end game is the only time that our regens are relevant (mandatory even), but unnecessary afterwards/beforehand and we're designed to naturally do less damage because of it (even when using said regen reduces our damage to begin with).

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

I'm talking about the amount of downtime.

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Yes even with downtime there will be tp/mp depletion in most cases because the dps will not be that high in the beginning.

The design philosophy has been the same since the game is out and bard was like this on 2.0, why bother with it now? Bard was never near top dps during progression as far as I remember and was always bellow casters or on par in some cases. I would understand the frustration over the mobility with WM since bards are/were responsible of most mechanics in previous coil fights but dps wise there shouldn't even be an argument. Most bards even know that their utility has always been a thing and they know they will be needed for it.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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You won't have TP depletion if you have those downtimes is what I'm saying. I've (shamefully) been in A1 runs where we'd go through the cycle at least eight times because of our low damage output. Neither mine (MCH) or the NIN's TP that I queued with ever dipped below comfortable amounts from invigorate. For all we know the fights probably won't be the same anyway and we'd probably be able to attack them even while jumping, but again this is only from a raid-standpoint.

I've accepted that we're on the lower end on the dps spectrum, but the matter of the question is why. I've never been able do more than the resident SMN, DRG or MNK in my group in FCoB, and it's certainly not the case now even with gauss barrel. If it's a matter of their mobility (which I will still disagree with to an extent but that's another subject) then it's more of a moot point with GB/WM. If it's because of the support, why even add on an additional damage penalty on top of their naturally low damage?

Yikes, I did not mean for this to be such a heated debate. :(

I was just curious as to if people were only given those 2 classes to play, which would they pick. Guess my rambling kinda messed that idea up. v_v

Well after reading everything I do have to wonder something as I noticed a few people mentioning groups using 2 melee. Would it be a good idea to level a melee like Ninja or Monk to bring their tools to the raid instead? I'd mention Dragoon but after seeing all they get on the way to 60, I don't think I could fit it all within an easily to reach manner, at least until I get a new G600 MMO mouse.

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Originally Posted by Renryuu

Y...

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Realistically speaking, if you're in a raid group with other people, you stick with one role. Freshly getting to lvl 60 will take some time to gear up one class, let alone two. If you're playing with a raid group, you shouldn't have to "have a melee class incase we don't need ranged", because you'd intially join the group as a ranged class to begin with.

Yarr, far better to gear both of one type of class (though hilarious, all 3 melee dps use different armor LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL).

For example, I'm gearing all 3 tanks.

If your wanting to go with a melee at some point or just to have it on hand, Ninja would probably be the more practical as it shares Accessories with MCH, which it sounds like your enjoying.

Well to be honest, I quite dislike the melee aspect of dps. As much as I've tried since 2.0 to get into melee, I always end up going back to range, specifically Blm and Smn. Mch is actually the first job since I can actually see me giving up on Smn/Blm and going full time, but at the same time I use to WoW where people tend to favor certain dps classes/specs over others due to wanting the most dps possible to down bosses and ignoring those that were on the low end of the spectrum regardless of how skilled a person can be. I used to love Hunter but then had to go Warlock and then finally quit WoW entirely as a Mage since I just wasn't having fun anymore and hated constantly swapping specs/jobs just to satisfy groups to ensure I could always be a welcome addition while not being a hindrance.

I face the same issue here where I'm torn between Smn/Blm and Mch I do very well with Smn/Blm and have more fun with Mch (though more cause it makes me feel Megamanish in a way) and we do have several bards in our guild already and a couple of Smn with me being the only real Blm player (at least one that knows the job well enough). I just adore these 3 jobs (though Blm a little less with how tight Enochian + AF/UI can be) and at the same time I can't really just swap between all 3 whenever as that is what made me eventually quit my last MMO. I much prefer being a master of one than a jack of several. :(

Both MCH and BRD can push comparable numbers to other dps classes, just not if other people want to also have them support.

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

It isn't really a burden when the class is played well. Many who complain are just simply bad at the job. Its not on top by no means, but if your failing dps checks, either your party is lacking or more knowledge/practice is needed on your part.

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omg...this doesn't have sense for me...MCH and BRD does less Damage than other Jobs because Guns and Bows have less Weapon Damage than the others weapons...

People think like "If You are crying about MCH saying that You do less damage than others jobs, You are bad MCH, You dont know how to use him becouse When I play MCH in Duty Finder or with my Static, I'm Top DPS !!"...omg...Your static sucks men !!!
If You are a good player and You play with good players too, You are gonna do the worst damage of the group...AT THE SAME SKILL LEVEL...I don't give a shit duty finder DPS...I'm top DPS in every Ravana Ext in DF, then, is MCH the highest DPS of the world ????? no...people are just bad...

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Originally Posted by Korashy

Both MCH and BRD can push comparable numbers to other dps classes, just not if other people want to also have them support.

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/clap
Archer 7 MCH 0
/clap

Now tell us how You saw a BRD or a MCH doing the same DPS than You with NIN...
/clap

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

omg...this doesn't have sense for me...MCH and BRD does less Damage than other Jobs because Guns and Bows have less Weapon Damage than the others weapons...

People think like "If You are crying about MCH saying that You do less damage than others jobs, You are bad MCH, You dont know how to use him becouse When I play MCH in Duty Finder or with my Static, I'm Top DPS !!"...omg...Your static sucks men !!!
If You are a good player and You play with good players too, You are gonna do the worst damage of the group...AT THE SAME SKILL LEVEL...I don't give a shit duty finder DPS...I'm top DPS in every Ravana Ext in DF, then, is MCH the highest DPS of the world ????? no...people are just bad...

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If you count the dps other classes gain from a properly played support class than they don't do less dps.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

If you count the dps other classes gain from a properly played support class than they don't do less dps.

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If We do that, DRG and NIN are the best Supports ever. Battle Litany + Trick Attack.
At the moment my party doesn't need TP or MP, I got tired to be a burden for my team and I'm playing like NIN every encounter, and I'm doing the best support like NIN, every 60 seconds, all my mates do +10% damage, and I'm top/second DPS...THAT IS TRUE SUPPORT !!!!

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

If We do that, DRG and NIN are the best Supports ever. Battle Litany + Trick Attack.
At the moment my party doesn't need TP or MP, I got tired to be a burden for my team and I'm playing like NIN every encounter, and I'm doing the best support like NIN, every 60 seconds, all my mates do +10% damage, and I'm top/second DPS...THAT IS TRUE SUPPORT !!!!

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I was trying to make it simple. Mch/BRD dps buff uptime is a lot more than those other classes. If you take into account all the utility, most groups in savage will bring them for progression. All current content can be cleared with every class so what's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

I was trying to make it simple. Mch/BRD dps buff uptime is a lot more than those other classes. If you take into account all the utility, most groups in savage will bring them for progression. All current content can be cleared with every class so what's the problem.

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Problem it's just You have to play like DRG/NIN/MNK/SMN/BLM if during NON-progress You dont wanna feel like a burden for your team. There are people who never feel like a burden and They are doing no dps and eating every AoE possible :)

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Problem it's just You have to play like DRG/NIN/MNK/SMN/BLM if during NON-progress You dont wanna feel like a burden for your team. There are people who never feel like a burden and They are doing no dps and eating every AoE possible :)

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MCH/BRD isn't that far behind that it'd be considered a burden. I don't necessarily agree that they should naturally be low on dps just for being a "support" class, esp when they already do less damage for using support abilities, but it's nowhere near the abyssal levels as it was before (and even that wasn't enough to justify benching them)

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

If We do that, DRG and NIN are the best Supports ever. Battle Litany + Trick Attack.
At the moment my party doesn't need TP or MP, I got tired to be a burden for my team and I'm playing like NIN every encounter, and I'm doing the best support like NIN, every 60 seconds, all my mates do +10% damage, and I'm top/second DPS...THAT IS TRUE SUPPORT !!!!

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If you feel like a burden, then again either your party or yourself are lacking. There is no excuse for not being able to down current content unless someone(s) are bad and holding people back.

MCH is a ranged class, meaning it will typically have to deal with less danger, has a turret that can probably (Not 100% sure) act as a damage soak (T5/T9 as examples where you benefit from extra bodies to sponge damage) has MP/TP support, the ability to increase damage of party members with turret debuff as well as other minor support abilities of bind/heavy/silence/stun and minor damage reduction. It also has exceptional burst potential both with single and AoE thanks to Wildfire and Rapid Fire.

I do not see a burden here so long as your playing correctly/optimally. Asking to do Melee comparable DPS is asinine as being ranged is usually a large advantage. We may also choose to go mobile range, lowering damage on GCDs but gain instant casts and AA's back and continue uptime whereas a melee would be SOL until able to connect with the target once more.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Problem it's just You have to play like DRG/NIN/MNK/SMN/BLM if during NON-progress You dont wanna feel like a burden for your team. There are people who never feel like a burden and They are doing no dps and eating every AoE possible :)

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If your able to clear then there isn't any burden from the class, its the players. What your saying equates to brayflox hard mode, where the only dps ppl WANTED to bring was black mages and bards for the aoe to optimize speed runs. Is It optimal for farming? Probably not, but it is by no means a burden.

As were all humans, mistakes can and will be made at times. Having a mch/brd for the tp/mp regen can potentially save what would of been a botched attempt.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Problem it's just You have to play like DRG/NIN/MNK/SMN/BLM if during NON-progress You dont wanna feel like a burden for your team. There are people who never feel like a burden and They are doing no dps and eating every AoE possible :)

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The classes aren't burdens, the players are. The BLM pulling 300 dps and dying to mechanics is a burden, because I have to change my entire playstyle to account for him. The MCH pulling 700 dps and following mechanics, doesn't phase me at all.

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

/clap
Archer 7 MCH 0
/clap

Now tell us how You saw a BRD or a MCH doing the same DPS than You with NIN...
/clap

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My BRD homey does 9XX dps in Alex sustained. The only time he drops lower is if he has to use TP or Mana song because other people can't manage their resources.

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Originally Posted by Korashy

My BRD homey does 9XX dps in Alex sustained. The only time he drops lower is if he has to use TP or Mana song because other people can't manage their resources.

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Fine, I'm doint 11xx with NIN...just like 10%-15% more than You :)

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Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir

Fine, I'm doint 11xx with NIN...just like 10%-15% more than You :)

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Let me see that parse for A4.

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

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Mobility is hardly a good reason for ranged to deal less damage because some of them (speicifcally BLM) can't afford to move as much anyway, not to mention GB/WM restricts movement anyway and its supposed to boost their dps. Their overall dps is relatively the same as it was in 2.0, except we also lose that so-called mobility advantage that some people like to bring up to justify their lower damage output.

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Originally Posted by Ryaz

Snip

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All of these little buffs and debuffs that MCH and BRD have, outside of TP/MP regeneration, are icing on the cake. I don't think it can be stated enough, but TP/MP regen makes these two jobs the most valuable classes to have in a progression raid or even efficient farming. I mained melee all of 2.0 and when it came time to farm coils, if one of the PF groups had no BRD, my motivation was killed. I wanted to do my best and having that regen there is essential to putting out the best dps I possibly could. The same stands true now. One cannot last without MCH or BRD. They make everything better.

I think this can be objectively true: if you are not running out of TP as a TP user you are not maximizing your class's potential. This means you're dry at 4:00 to 4:30. Please bring based MCH/BRD, ty.

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Originally Posted by ArtificialxSky

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It only holds true if the bosses are a punching bag, such as turn 10 or turn 11. None of the content atm lasts long enough, or at least has enough pauses to necessitate a TP regen.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It only holds true if the bosses are a punching bag, such as turn 10 or turn 11. None of the content atm lasts long enough, or at least has enough pauses to necessitate a TP regen.

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A NIN runs out <3min if played to full potential. A DRK runs out at 2min. In A1/2/4 you'll run out of TP.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

You won't have TP depletion if you have those downtimes is what I'm saying.

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It'll take a while for those downtimes to happen in savage no doubt, also those downtimes you are talking about are literally 6-7 secs, a perfect time to play a song. There were downtimes in final coil especially on T12(aoe phase, adds phase) and T13(dives, teraflare) melee still needed tp and healers still needed mp. It's literally just a cycle in this game, everything is being repeated, so if that doesn't happen and BRD/MCH will not be needed for alex savage's progression then the dev team will be forced to up their damage and remove their utility all together.

As for why? Alright, let's break the current dps jobs down.

Melee is top dps, why? because they are supposed to suffer dps loss when:

1- The boss is not stationary. (extreme headache and dps loss)
2- Their gameplay is affected by downtime a little more than casters. Losing GL or BoTD etc..
3- Having to move in and out for AOE and mechanics.

So SE has them top dps depending on the occurrence of the above to average their total dps. IF the boss is moving 24/7 rip melee, kick pls, nobody wants those. Alright let's look at casters:

1- They are ranged so they don't suffer or gain when their target moves here and there unlike melee.
2- Their own movement heavily affects their dps, especially BLM. SMN suffers too in exchange for mana, so they are mobile by burning their mana with ruin 2.
3- Downtime hurts their dps, especially BLM, but it's not as painful as melee. SMNs care now because of their AA stacks.

So SE has them right after melee, on single target they will never be top dps especially when melee gets their dummy fight. Let's look at BRD/MCH:

1- Movement during fights does not affect them heavily as much as melee or casters, they can dance all they want- lose damage but they are still DEALING DAMAGE in the end, where every other class with constant movement(or when the target is moving) will fail to deliver combos and casts. The least punished job for consistent on going movement compared to ALL other DPS jobs.
2- Downtime may hurt their activated buffs but they do not have major damage stacks to keep up, only dots which is the case with every other dps.
3- Best utility offered to the WHOLE party which is unique. (Goad is awesome but it is single target.)
Also don't forget, they will be fixing Warden.

so SE gave these ranged physical guys a stationary buff, it's not that OP because if it is then it will make them mobile whenever, extremely rewarding when stationary and best utility to be offered. You know what let's all go bards and machinists!!!


Correct me if i'm wrong about the stacks that you need to keep up? Are there any? Maybe I'm missing something?

I still remember though, all those bards during T1-T5 because of their mobility and high damage. Why would anyone want to go caster/melee on annoying fights? There is a balance in this game and I truly feel like they should give bard/machinist some more space regarding their mobility accompanied with decent damage output.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Mobility is hardly a good reason for ranged to deal less damage because some of them (speicifcally BLM) can't afford to move as much anyway, not to mention GB/WM restricts movement anyway and its supposed to boost their dps. Their overall dps is relatively the same as it was in 2.0, except we also lose that so-called mobility advantage that some people like to bring up to justify their lower damage output.

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Yeah, I totally based that whole response on mobility and nothing else. Let's ignore all the other points I made.

Anyhow to counter Mobility is a good a reason as any to justify lower damage output. A Bard/Mch can disable GB/WM and keep DPS'ing while on the move dealing with movement heavy mechanics, meaning the party dps will take a lower overall hit. The only other job that comes close to this would be smn, at the cost of extra mp consumption, unless healers are comfortable/confident enough to deal with and keep the party alive. Sending a Melee or black mage to deal with movement heavy mechanics is often times bad party play. This may not be as prevalent atm, but it is only the start of an expansion, for which the main raid (Savage) has yet to be released.

It seems like you should be directing your displeasure towards the encounters and not the actual job itself, as they have not giving it a proper challenge and a chance to really shine.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It only holds true if the bosses are a punching bag, such as turn 10 or turn 11. None of the content atm lasts long enough, or at least has enough pauses to necessitate a TP regen.

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I'm certain Turn 2 of Savage alex will be requiring a lot of AoE out of everyone, TP is like to be an issue as DPS checks will no doubt be a lot rougher. Turns 1 and 3 may see some song/turret dancing to sneak in a few ticks of mp for healers as there are a good few pauses and turn 4 will likely be something akin to Turn 11, so you can expect the encounter to last a fair bit longer and have TP/MP being drained.

Well, at Lv 60 SMN you have to deal with Dreadtrance and the rush to pop Deathflare before it wears off - no trance, no Deathflare.

So if you hate lining up abilities with buffs ...

Freelancer4 and Minorinz...
please stop. You logic is too sound, they (most anyway that rant on the forums) don't want to hear that.

That post limit ate up my replies...lemme try to abridge it as best as I can

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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Those downtimes still exist is what I'm getting at. It's all interval based and classes won't run out of TP on A1 unless they're using high cost abilities. They will run low, but they won't run out.

The current fights they are now, are not punching bags to the same extent as FCoB. But again, I've said this, they'd have to change it to so it's not the case. We saw SCoB savage that remained mostly intact with the amount of uptime on the bosses (except for T9) because it was close to the original mechanics, whose to say that it will or will not be the same in Alex Savage?

Also, you mentioned this when you brought out your points.

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Melee is top dps, why? because they are supposed to suffer dps loss when:

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Supposed to. While your logic is sound, it's hardly ever the case in actual practice, or least its not to the extent where it is detrimental to melee (because more or less, they still end up topping numbers even on the likes of T13 because they can maintain uptime on earthshakers.) Not to mention I honestly can't think of a boss where it not being stationary would become a problem.

Across the board, every class has something they need to manage, not just SMN or BLM or whatever. The difficulty of that is subjective, but the reward/risk/loss is different. Except for Bard. Their challenge is remaining sane when you realize that none of your skills flow together when WM is active.

And just to nitpick on SMN, does AA have a duration or is it infinite like aether flow? If infinite, doesn't that boil down to cooldown management on when to use DWT, which is technically the case for all classes (but again, the payoff/risk of it is different)

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Originally Posted by FreeLancer4

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Mobility is the most relevant thing when I see "MCH is a ranged class, meaning it will typically have to deal with less danger". Where does the less danger factor from? Other than that, it's the same as my above reply. It's all sound on paper, but it hasn't been the case in actual practice if other classes are still pulling ahead despite all that.

Also, to my knowledge the turret isn't terribly effective at soaking damage. I've only ever heard of T5 where pets work, but not T9.

MCH's support is also not exclusive to them; its typically less effective than what's present on other dps classes (specifically trick attack and virus). If it's the regen aspect of it, then I have to ask why their natural output is supposed to be lower when using said regen will lower their damage anyway.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

And just to nitpick on SMN, does AA have a duration or is it infinite like aether flow? If infinite, doesn't that boil down to cooldown management on when to use DWT, which is technically the case for all classes (but again, the payoff/risk of it is different)

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AA has a duration, yes.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

Those downtimes still exist is what I'm getting at.

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They better exist, otherwise it'll be miserable for the brd/mch to sing 24/7. What matters is the duration of the downtime and its frequency and honestly, so far they are not that frequent. What do you mean unless they use their high cost ability? In savage, everyone will be going all out on dps there is no holding back especially when its a dps races? Could you clarify what you were referring to? Also, the current alex story mode is literally a punching bag, even better there is a lot of AOE going on and guess what? Melee can AOE too!! But you know that takes the fun away, they should make savage more than just a dps race, they should add those kind of mechanics that require much movement to make it a living hell for caster and melee so then a bard/mch can be happy.

Back on t13, plds covered melees over casters, melees are literally dps bots. The whole party would run around getting mechanics done just so melee can sit there and dps. It's the party's choice, this doesn't mean melee isn't capable of doing mechanics, it means the party has decided to adjust and set the melee top priority on the dps list in exchange of the extra effort. Sounds fair to be honest. Melees have the freedom to go and get things done themselves if they want to, SE made sure of that option.

I can think of an encounter than made our melees cry, T6 savage, where rafflesia had to move everytime a bulb spawned near it. Their dps was taking a hit, it was fluctuating so bad, the bard and caster were a little higher during that phase. Also t7, whenever they got shriek, it was always a pain. Did I forget to mention that melee have positionals? so it's not only about the target moving but also they also need to get their positionals and combos running while having the target stroll around. Lovely. Yup I totally get it, melee should get punished even harder and the party should assign them mechanics because they are supposed to be equal in dps with casters and ranged physical dps.


Bard's rewards are reasonable, they are not extreme or worthless. People are addressing bard's issues as if they are still back in 2.0, why is bard's dps low? what? you just realized what playing bard is like?
I do understand that weaving during WM is a pain and oh god the mobility vs dps choice, but SE isn't that heartless and cruel, I'm sure they are studying the case. Just don't expect a bard or a machinist going anywhere near melee's level of damage on a dummy fight or something similar.

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Originally Posted by Minorinz

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The point I was getting across is that those downtimes exist to the extent that TP songs are not necessarily needed. Otherwise, you'd have a repeat of fights like T11 or T7 where it's a punching bag and TP regen is absolutely required (not that I necessarily agree with this design choice either since you're pretty much forcing a specific class rather than role into the composition). Whether or not you hold back or not wouldn't matter if you still had downtimes that would downplay the necessity of a TP song.

Dont mind the following responses since I'm just nitpicking your examples, but know that while I do understand your context, its just that it's not to an extreme degree that it gets detrimental *that* to melee.
>T13 my group had melees (and offtank) dancing in an out inbetween each earthshaker to minimize their downtime (unless it was last phase).
>Shriek isn't exclusive to melee and often the placement puts them out of range of ranged attacks anyway, at least with how we placed the renauds so they were never standing on the glowing platforms or risk clipping through the renaud's hitbox.
>I've never seen T6 savage as an issue for melee when it came to moving raff because of it's large hitbox. The tanks always communicated (or at least established a pre-determined direction) where they're going to be taking raff anyway. It wasn't enough of an issue to still pull ahead of me or the summoner.

In the end to me, it boils down to what's justifying their overall lower damage output. Even with their 100% uptime, other classes are finding ways to topple their damage output anyway. Now with 3.0 out, the damage difference is still relatively the same (throwing out random numbers here) as it was in 2.0, except now that 5-10% difference between a physical ranged and a caster is also with WM/GB in mind, dropping lower than it was before if they have to end up disabling it to dps on the go. It's not necessarily a damage increase compared to how it was in 2.0 because everyone's optimal damage is balanced around the new abilities they've received.

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Originally Posted by RiceisNice

In the end to me, it boils down to what's justifying their overall lower damage output. Even with their 100% uptime, other classes are finding ways to topple their damage output anyway. Now with 3.0 out, the damage difference is still relatively the same (throwing out random numbers here) as it was in 2.0, except now that 5-10% difference between a physical ranged and a caster is also with WM/GB in mind, dropping lower than it was before if they have to end up disabling it to dps on the go. It's not necessarily a damage increase compared to how it was in 2.0 because everyone's optimal damage is balanced around the new abilities they've received.

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It boils down to, because they're ranged (which is useful for adds/mechanics/multi-DoTs, not necessarily hitting the main target), they give very generous raid DPS boosts with Foe's/Hypercharge, and they enable Disembowel, they are already worth a slot even in content without TP/MP requirements. You can't just put in another caster or melee over BRD/MCH and have more or even equal raid DPS, it doesn't work that way, and I'm getting the impression people who ask for BRD/MCH buffs don't realize this point (or play at a level where Foe's/Hypercharge are strong enough to justify the slot). BRD/MCH are presently as balanced as they were at the end of ARR, which is saying a heck of a lot.

Really the only thing ranged have to complain about is the playstyle differences aren't as fun/fluid to them as they could be, not much else IMO.