Machinist superior then bards?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

dots only tick ones per 3 seconds

---

Bards have two DoTs.

Quote:

---

if both ticks crit and reset BL then you actually technically lose 1 BL proc

---

Not prior to Heavensward if you use the first BL before the second proc.

But what do I know, I only mained Bard and did it frequently.

And apparently so did Rice.

BTW, did you ever answer me as to what skill's cooldown on a MCH randomly resets from your DoT? I didn't forget about your claim that procs are exactly the same. Don't think you're going to get away from that. The longer you wait, the more obvious it is you don't have an answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

DoTs

---

Every player maining BRD already told you about getting double procs within 1.5 cast. But no, your deduction, ofc, has more weight than evidence from career bards.

Quote:

---

Crit is bad BS

---

Not, if you're not in minuet.

Quote:

---

first off titan ex isnt a reaction fight, lmao

---

It is, with lag. Otherwise, it's a boring fight with no real twist to it.

Quote:

---

second as i said, i've played on a bard with WM. I can go HS > SSproc no problem. I think you might be ..whats the word it.. bad? I'm not resorting to insulting peoples skill anymore but like.. i can get them no problem. if you're mashing heavy shot though you'll have the next one q'd (which you can't cancel) so ofc you'll miss the proc.

---

I think that you're making an ass out of yourself. You have any idea what queuing abilities is? You know that SS proc appears on the hotbar much later than you can actually use SS or even see proc appear on the screen? Don't judge or be judged? I don't know why I'm wasting my time on you, if you obviously don't have enough experience or judgement to judge my skills, but still do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

It's 1.5 second cast on a 2.5 GCD, with the GCD starting when you begin a cast. That only leaves you with 1 second of of using oGCDs before your next weaponskill (which will be a cast unless you have a straighter shot proc) You can't use oGCDs during a cast. You can't immediately start a cast right after a oGCD due to animation locks, nor can you immediately do a oGCD right after an oGCD.

It doesn't weave well because you can't fit two oGCDs in the span of 1 second after a cast, not without it clipping into your next GCD by a split second to a second (which adds up in long fights).

---

You don't need to weave 2 oGCDs into one, it is okay to delay your cds by 1 or two seconds if it means you get another bloodletter. It is impossible to miss a bloodletter no matter when it procs, even if it procs right as you use another ability, and you delay it till the next ogcd. This has not changed from day 1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

first off titan ex isnt a reaction fight, lmao

---

It totally is. I never bothered to learn either hard or ex rotations and were able to do them just fine.

it doesn't matter if you get a double proc (which certainly can happen, of course).

You can simply use the second proc in the next GCD...your dots won't tick again until after that point. You NEVER have to use BL as soon as it comes up, but you do need to use it within 1 GCD of it coming up.

bards have 2 dots. that tick at exactly. the. same. time.

put your dots on a dummy. watch when the numbers show up.
watch when the dummie's hp moves. you will see they /exactly/ line up. every 3 seconds.


I dont know why you think because I dont main bard that I dont k ow how fucking basic game mechanics work, its not a hard concept. the phenomena you are mentioning has happened to me too. But it was the same situation i said - the dot tick lined up at the same time as a gcd, so it looked like i got 2 in 1 gcd. unfortunately, 3.0 > 2.5, so it didnt ACTUALLY happen, but it looked like it.
#bardmechanicsarehard

another and (admittedly, more common way it will happen) is when you dont proc for 15 seconds but proc again the second you use it. that way your BL cd rots, essentially, you use it, then a dot crit ticks right after you hit it, giving a proc in thr same gcd. thay happens, sure, but i mean its not that big of a problem

also, ticking twice in 1.5 second cast time. what? 3.0 is literally twice as long a period of time as 1.5seconds. it's not possible to proc twice in 1.5 seconds when the max is 1 proc per 3 second.

also, when i said MCH procs work exactly the same as bard, i was talking about thr straight shot procs because those do wprk exactly the same. you DO have time to hit it. you just cant be mashing heavy shot/split shot or the next splitshot/hs will queue and ofc you'll get thr blm problem.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

You don't need to weave 2 oGCDs into one, it is okay to delay your cds by 1 or two seconds if it means you get another bloodletter. It is impossible to miss a bloodletter no matter when it procs, even if it procs right as you use another ability, and you delay it till the next ogcd. This has not changed from day 1.

---

That's the thing, it's what made BRD fun for me. The entire thing goes against the inherent design that it's pretty damn annoying they didn't see it coming or to change to accommodate. And every other time, it's still very possible to miss out on a reset that occurs within 1 second of each other because you're in the middle of the cast. That's the thing that bothers me about having cast times on BRD, it just screams bad design in regards to how the class played previously.

And while it's not as bad on single boss fights, there are other fights that have multiple adds (like A1 or bismarck) or just dungeon play in general.

https://youtu.be/39F-jfyCuOY

shit quality right now, but basically what I'm talking about is the split shot spam. if you spam it, the next one will queue and you'll miss procs.

but you can see here if I don't spam the button, i can activate my procs without doing a cast. Its potentially even easier if you use an ogcd (similar to BLM fireweaving, except.. not shitty) to force the proc to show up earlier, but yeah. this is what i was talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

It is impossible to miss a bloodletter

---

Unless of course it procs again before you use it. Kind of like how you miss a Firestarter on a BLM if one Fire 1 procs it, then you cast Fire 1 again and the second one procs it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Odowla

I dont main bard

---

Well, let's see. Should anyone take the word of someone who doesn't main Bard, or the multiple Bards who have said that it doesn't work how you think it does?

Oh, by the way, I got several of these when I was running my main scenario roulette last night as a Bard. And could actually use them because no cast times!

So you're still wrong.

Quote:

---

i was talking about thr straight shot procs

---

So you're saying that because one proc may work somewhat similar but everything else is entirely different, the two classes' procs work exactly the same?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Unless of course it procs again before you use it. Kind of like how you miss a Firestarter on a BLM if one Fire 1 procs it, then you cast Fire 1 again and the second one procs it.

---

Assuming single targets, it shouldn't be wasted if you use it as soon as it comes off because dots only tick every three seconds. The thing is that you have two ticks that are ticking within a second each other of every three seconds. I think that's where he was getting at. Of course if the two ticks proc during midcast, that's all out of the window.

MCH is still garbage buddy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

MCH is still garbage buddy.

---

Yeah, bad ones who don't play the job right are. The rest of us are doing fine, thanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RubenSnizzle

MCH is still garbage buddy.

---

>1.1k sustained

smn does 1.1k sustained

"garbage"

I'm a career bard but since they changed it to bow wizard I've been trying out MCH. I'm only 58 but already GB feels much more fluid then WM. Almost to the point where it seems like the designed it originally for MCH but then threw it on bard last second because they didn't have any better ideas.

But then, I'm on the 'less dps, more utility' side of the bard argument. To close the dps gap for bard I'd rather them make a song that boosts phy dmg for a target party member. Drains mp and can't be used with other songs but can be used with BV. This would highlight that 'support' role they keep saying we are. It would also encourage players to actually play support and not sit on full MP pools for entire dungeons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

-

---

Bloodletter can only reset every 3s, server DoT timings say so. River of blood is activated only when VB and WB crit. VB and WB tic at the exact same time(every ~3s). The only time you can get this "double proc" scenario is if your bloodletter comes off cooldown and your bloodletter resets via DoTs. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to figure this out. Being able to read tool tips and knowing how DoTs work truly help. I thought you needed to hear that from someone who mained BRD, if that is even a qualification lol.


Also there is no way of reacting to straighter shot procs. The proc registers right at the start of the next GCD. People can try it out for themselves by spamming heavy shot > straight shot and watch how the straighter shot proc doesn't get used up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Bloodletter can only reset every 3s

---

Well, I don't know what to tell you, but I've experienced otherwise. Today, in fact. Just did Wanderer's Palace a short time ago and personally saw it reset twice within 3 seconds, with the first reset being halfway through the normal cooldown.

So honestly, I don't care how many people tell me how they think it works, I have personally experienced otherwise, so unless you can come up with some valid explanation for how I personally saw it reset twice within 3 seconds on a boss fight with only one target, I'm not going to say you're right, ever. Being able to read that I've personally experienced it reset multiple times within 3 seconds truly helps not continuing an argument that won't be won.

And that's of course only with one target. Add in multiple target scenarios and you've got any number of procs within 3 seconds if you're spreading the love.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

-

---

Me and a few other people have provided hard evidence. And what did you provide? "Your personal experience" with no video or anything.

If you want to back up your claim, please provide a credible source.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Me and a few other people have provided hard evidence. And what did you provide? "Your personal experience" with no video or anything.

If you want to back up your claim, please provide a credible source.

---

What hard evidence? You've provided your explanation of how you claim it works. I have experienced otherwise. Your evidence, to me, is therefore useless and not hard at all.

I don't care about convincing you or anyone else. I know what I've experienced.

You can cite your "hard evidence" until you're blue in the face, but it won't prove anything to me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

And that's of course only with one target. Add in multiple target scenarios and you've got any number of procs within 3 seconds if you're spreading the love.

---

All dots works in the same way. ALL dots. Be it a bard, ninja, summoner or monk.
The only thing that might give you 2 BL procs in the same 3 sec is a server/latency lag (you actually need to receive this proc from server and there as always some issues happens). And of course getting more than 2 procs is just impossible no matter how many targets you put your dots on.

You can go to dummy and try to get separate dots ticks on it. Post a video if you'll succeed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felessan

The only thing that might give you 2 BL procs in the same 3 sec is a server/latency lag (you actually need to receive this proc from server and there as always some issues happens).

---

Which, frankly, is irrelevant how it happens as long as it can happen. Doesn't matter whether it's design or latency, a wasted proc due to a double proc is a wasted proc due to a double proc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

I don't care about convincing you or anyone else.

---

You obviously care enough if you are responding to people with the famous "you don't main BRD argument". The truth of the matter is, they can read tooltips and you can't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

I have experienced otherwise. Your evidence, to me, is therefore useless and not hard at all.

---

Well that's a shame. Hey lets disregard the thousands of years of history written in several books because "I haven't experienced it!" Bad logic is bad. Go to any youtube video recording a parse and watch how DoTs tic simultaneously.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

The truth of the matter is, they can read tooltips and you can't.

---

Which tooltip is relevant and proves your point?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Which tooltip is relevant and proves your point?

---

http://xivdb.com/?skill/90055/River-of-Blood
"Grants a 50% chance that critical damage over time inflicted by Venomous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer."
I will even hold your hand and paraphrase it for you. If your VB or WB tic for critical damage, you have a 50% chance of bloodletter resetting.

DoT tics however, tic at the same time. So your VB and WB(even if both of them crit) can only reset bloodletter once every 3 seconds.
Here is a random video I found on youtube demonstrating that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ZnpeVTbVGE
The only time there are two DoT tics not ticing simultaneously is if there is flaming arrow and WB/VB going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

...

---

Individual ticks for DoTs are calculated separately, but the damage is dealt server-side on a globlal GCD. Otherwise, we wouldn't have two different instances of varying crits when looking at DoT damage (let alone seeing bloodletter refresh twice in a three second window)

And if it were true, then you'd still have the same problem on some of the fights that have multiple enemies (which to say, most of current content) and you'd still have the trouble of those procs occuring in a way you can't use it up.

What bards are complaining about is simple. i'll give a step by step explanation so people with large difficulty with understanding might...hopefully understand.

Example:

Cast heavy shot. Bloodletter naturally cools down 0.2s into the cast. You have a dot crit activating the rivers of blood trait at 0.5 seconds into the cast. bard casts can only be stuttered at 1 sec into the cast.

.1s Heavy shot casted
.2s Bloodletter comes off cooldown
.3s
.4s
.5s A dot crits, activating rivers of blood triggering a bloodletter reset
.6s
.7s
.8s
.9s
.10s Time that heavy shot can be interrupted without losing the effect. 1 bloodletter proc legitimately lost.

Gotta love all the non bards thinking they know stuff though, keep telling us how to play our jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

"Grants a 50% chance that critical damage over time inflicted by Venomous Bite or Windbite will reset the Bloodletter recast timer."

---

Except that tooltip doesn't prove your point. And I mentioned that those reset Bloodletter, so suggesting I can't read tooltips and then bringing up the exact one I was talking about displays an interesting lack of reading.

The tooltip that would prove your point is one which states that both WB and VB cause their procs at the exact same time, or that upon applying both buffs, they somehow sync their damage together. Since, y'know, that's what I'm arguing about, and not that BL procs when the dots crit.

Just because it only displays numbers every 3 seconds doesn't mean everything that you can't see is happening every 3 seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RiceisNice

--

---

Go test it for yourself on a dummy. I have conducted several tests and the only time my bloodletter resets is right after a dot tick on the target. Sometimes both of my DoTs crit and guess what? I was only granted 1 bloodletter proc every single time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

-

---

Then post a video of this. Any video. You can save yourself the hassle, and shut up all these nonBRD mains.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sessurea

What bards are complaining about is simple. i'll give a step by step explanation so people with large difficulty with understanding might...hopefully understand.

Example:

Cast heavy shot. Bloodletter naturally cools down 0.2s into the cast. You have a dot crit activating the rivers of blood trait at 0.5 seconds into the cast. bard casts can only be stuttered at 1 sec into the cast.

.1s Heavy shot casted
.2s Bloodletter comes off cooldown
.3s
.4s
.5s A dot crits, activating rivers of blood triggering a bloodletter reset
.6s
.7s
.8s
.9s
.10s Time that heavy shot can be interrupted without losing the effect. 1 bloodletter proc legitimately lost.

Gotta love all the non bards thinking they know stuff though, keep telling us how to play our jobs.

---

But muh game mechanics theorycrafting and 100% absolute tooltips.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Then post a video of this. Any video. You can save yourself the hassle, and shut up all these nonBRD mains.

---

That's flawed logic right there. You don't go up to someone who does a certain job and tell them their personal observations when doing work is wrong because the policies and rules write otherwise.

How about all these non BRD mains stop chiming in with their theorycrafts and <5 minute tests on dummies and actually start gearing upand maining bard if ya'll think it's perfectly fine and dandy.

It's easy to say something is fine if they've never experienced it first hand on a regular basis. Remember how even as broken as war was in 2.0 there were still "brilliant" theorycrafters saying the class is fine and l2p? Yeah, same thing happening right here.

Nobody has addressed my whole "if you have bloodletter available 3 times in one 2.5 second period (as in, getting two procs or whatever after having it ready as the gcd starts OR getting the mythical third proc 14th chakra genki dama) doesn't using the third bloodletter clip into the next on gcd ability?" Can't we only use 2 (now 1, with WM) oGCD abilities inbetween gcds?

Also on the matter of bard vs mch, all depends on alex savage. Bard will trump mcn in any situation involving a meaningful chance to multidot, no contest. ironjaw is arguably one of the strongest skills in the game afterall.

The only time I have personally seen bloodletter reset twice in a GCD was when multi-DOTting adds that spawned mid-battle. This is due to all DOTs ticking at the same time on a target, but each target having their own "clock". This can be verified by going to your house's striking dummies. Throw DOTs on all of them. Since they've been there since the last maintenance, they all have the same clock timing, and the DOT damage will show up at the same time. Now put one of the dummies in your bag and then put it back out. Reapply DOTs and you'll see the DOTs now tick at different times.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

Then post a video of this. Any video. You can save yourself the hassle, and shut up all these nonBRD mains.

---

Why? Like I said, I don't care if you agree with me. I know what I've seen and done. You could post seven videos of yourself never getting double resets and it still wouldn't convince me because I know what I've done.

Also, where's that tooltip that proves your point? After you made such a big deal of how others could read tooltips and I can't, I'd have thought it'd be easy.

It doesn't matter if double resets can occur or not.

1. They don't occur with enough frequency to impact dps.
2. Even if they did it is acceptable. Consider it another drawback of minuet - if it still gives you higher dps, then its fine.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by pandabearcat

1. They don't occur with enough frequency to impact dps.

---

That's cool that you can make that claim. The argument didn't stem from whether or not they caused a significant loss of DPS, though. It stemmed from the claim that BRD and MCH procs were exactly the same.

Edit: However, you're still wrong. Especially in multi-mob situations where you've got your dots ticking on multiple targets at the same time, it actually can happen very frequently.

Alex floor 4, Bard still king there... Mostly healer MP easily drain out with all the mechanic involved. Bard still can maintain overall DPS 800-900 even Ballad is on. I'm not sure why but the DPS in dungeon totally low and proc BL is not really often compare with 8 man pt. And I can cast bit longer my Ballad at Alex. But I have to admit Bard difficulty is tripple compare with ARR.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

That's flawed logic right there.

---

And "you have no idea how bloodletter works because you never mained BRD" isn't? You know, some people actually got a chance to play BRD even though they play other jobs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

I know what I've seen and done. You could post seven videos of yourself never getting double resets and it still wouldn't convince me because I know what I've done.

---

You can believe whatever the hell you like, but please don't spread information based on "what you have experienced" and then flame other people because they use reason without even giving a source of your claims.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aiselia

Also, where's that tooltip that proves your point?

---

"Inflicted" meaning every time your DoTs lower the target's hp it has a chance to reset bloodletter's cooldown. It isn't some magic interval, it says inflicted there for a reason.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JohnMccain

And "you have no idea how bloodletter works because you never mained BRD" isn't? You know, some people actually got a chance to play BRD even though they play other jobs.

---

So you are one of the naysayers when people say classes are fine even though many others who main the class (and even those who don't that have felt the impact when partying with those classes) say they aren't?

So you think war 2.0 was ok and great (even yoshi.p said so, he must be right no?)

How about nins in 2.4?

Or how about more recently with bard 3.0 before the boosts to wm and gb damage? Were those unwarranted changes as well? Remember yoshi.p said it was fine just a few days before 3.01 hit.

All I'm saying is, you may talk the talk, but if you've never walked the walk like they(career main raiding classes) have, your input is just that much more unreliable.

I'd always consider an end-gamer opinion on his class, than the one of someone who just played it for fun.

Especially concerning endgame balance.

Just saying.

And to get back on topic :
Brd and Mch provides differents tools. Mch seems more flexible on MP/TP regen (instant turrets help a lot), while brd can more easily help the raid magical dps. We will have to see exactly how the savage mode goes to see if one brings somthing more needed to one and each fight.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by nuyu11

I have to admit Bard difficulty is tripple compare with ARR.

---

triple? I play BRD/MCH and BRD by himself is not harder than ARR BRD, just currently You must pay a bit more attention because now You have to cast your skills, If You played or play a caster like BLM or SMN, You should adapt easily.