Expansion is only temporarily enjoyable. Fails to fix all main flaws.

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Originally Posted by Zenif

You can be a sheep or you can be a tiger. Obviously you'll get more of the former, but does not mean the latter don't exist and shouldn't have options to walk their own path.

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So I only have the choices of being a sheep or a tiger? What if I want to be a bear? Or some kind of lemur? I feel so creatively stifled by your lack of choices...

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Originally Posted by Zenif

You can be a sheep or you can be a tiger. Obviously you'll get more of the former, but does not mean the latter don't exist and shouldn't have options to walk their own path.

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Yes, and for the people that only look up builds on the internet without attempting to create them themselves nothing will change, what you have right now is only 1 "build/way to play" anyway, so if these people think there is only 1 viable build, in practice nothing will change for them, they'll be playing that mainstream build, whereas it leaves room for other more inquisitive players to test and adjust theirs. There are only upsides.

Show me a game that delivers what you want. I'm going to guess there isn't one, because you'd be playing it. MMO players complain just to complain. This is the best dev team of any MMO I've played. The amount of content they put out is amazing. The only problem is the lack of pvp, which for me is a good thing because I don't have the time.

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Originally Posted by KylePearlsand

then someone finds that perfect build

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It depends on how things are designed, as I suggested. Not an MMO, but take Warframe. Different frames have qualitatively different effects, and some are more effective at some "roles" than others. However, there are various ways to build a frame from an efficacy standpoint, and there are gear builds that make you play differently - separate entirely from how you build out your frame.

FF XIV starts with an illusion of flexibility (cross-class skills, etc.), and then you lose it all. Jobs pare down cross-class skills to nothing but required skills. Gear becomes ultra-linear (general caster gear vs. Fending/Slaying). Gear/level just directly mods stats upwards. It's not a system made for variety, but systems with variety ARE possible.

The system demands the "perfect build" now, because the only thing the game is designed for is a character fitting a fixed mold they plan the mechanics around.

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Originally Posted by StrejdaTom

I loved the story and some things they fixed according to feedback but you are right. They brought absolutely nothing new which is in my opinion a huge problem after almost 2 years.. we should be definitely moving forward.. not staying on the same place with a bit different textures and mobs..

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Sadly I didn't love the story. There were some good moments but sometimes I was beginning to fall asleep. Maybe If my character had a voice or something even if it didn't change the story but made me feel like my character has a personality. I found my self ended skipping cut scenes especially the boring Fantasy dialogue. Of course with great Voice Actors They could have carried me along the story but they fail to, while Joker and Scarecrow carried me all the way to the end of Arkham Knight despite The easy and boring Tank-mobile combat.

Sometimes I wonder why I even play Final Fantasy XIV then I remember..its Final Fantasy..its the same reason as to why I played Final Fantasy XIII. Not to mention most other mmos either look to cartoony or to sexualized or way to Fictional Korean inspired Gear because...they are mostly Korean mmos.

I'm really pleased with the expansion , no issues at all . I'm enjoying myself.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

Show me a game that delivers what you want. I'm going to guess there isn't one, because you'd be playing it. MMO players complain just to complain. This is the best dev team of any MMO I've played. The amount of content they put out is amazing. The only problem is the lack of pvp, which for me is a good thing because I don't have the time.

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Sure, plenty of examples. Rift (before it went F2P) was everything I described in OP. Amazing character build system, multiple paths to obtain gear, challenging content and expansion launched with three raids. It was a WoW clone like FFXIV, but felt more like its true successor than FFXIV does. Too bad, they ditched the game and made it trash after F2P. Guild Wars 1 is another perfect example of what I described. It had countless character builds that were unique, some of the best expansions ever and content that was perfectly balanced for both casuals/hardcores. For a recent release, Wildstar had everything going for it too and had the followers to make it big, but they screwed up big time with balance issues, defects and awful campaign.

Now you may think FFXIV is still alive because it does something better, but in fact it's mostly popular because of its FF franchise name. Therefore, it also attracts many casuals that prefer questing and crafting over raiding. That's fine, but the issue is with the content balance. Currently only 5% of it is catered towards hardcores. A little more won't hurt to have.

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

Your first 3 cons are the intentional design direction of the game.

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Is that a nice way of saying intentional lazy development?

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Originally Posted by Malevicton

May as well criticize CoD for not having a diplomacy minigame, or Witcher3 for not having spaceships. Diplomacy can be fun, and spaceships can be fun, but everything has its time and place.

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Your examples are comparing apples and oranges. Everything I mentioned indeed has its time and place with FFXIV. I didn't suggest anything out of the ordinary. It is things that improve on its existing features. That's what expansions do. They aren't just more content. They're supposed to improve, bring new features and listen to user feedback to iron out previous flaws. But unfortunately as I have said, it's only more of the same. It feels like one of their content patches except with level cap increased.

I'd say all of the things I remember finding wrong in 2.0 have been addressed in some manner or another in 3.0.

And simply making really hard/harder/harderest content even harder isn't quite the answer when the problem is the majority of the audience is unable or unwilling to take part in it in the first place.

When the stats show that they have the right toning of difficulty and more players are getting involved, then that's a good cause to branch out raids.

It might be a bit premature to judge the expansion as we don't even have all the content yet. Savage Alexander and the new pvp area won't even come till two weeks from now.
I didn't really had much problem with 2.0 so not much needed fixing for me.
Zones are bigger and look better, mobs are tougher, graphics are better, voice acting is better, soundtrack is better, story is better and we can fly.
As for something very different: ARR had stuff like housing, marriage, and the whole freakin Gold Saucer as patch content. I'm pretty sure the 3.x cycle will deliver things you never tought possible.
Me? I just want Hildibrand back. And vampires.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

Opinions and made up numbers.

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So what you are saying is there isn't one, all the games you describe crashed and burned or had very small player bases. Sound like a good business plan, SE should get right on it.

The franchise name is not carrying the game, just go see FFXIV pre 2.0. FYI casuals pay the bills not hardcore players. That 5% of content is for 5% of the player base. I also can make up numbers to support my opinion. I love the internet.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

So what you are saying is there isn't one, all the games you describe crashed and burned or had very small player bases. Sound like a good business plan, SE should get right on it.

The franchise name is not carrying the game, just go see FFXIV pre 2.0. FYI casuals pay the bills not hardcore players. That 5% of content is for 5% of the player base. I also can make up numbers to support my opinion. I love the internet.

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Excellent points, I would only like to add FFXI as an example. while it didnt go F2P it was geared way more towards the hardcore yet only achieved 500k subs at its peak (to the best of my knowledge, i could be off on the numbers.) and it was an FF title.

Like i mentioned on the page before, People are coming to a burger joint and complaining they cant get a steak and lobster dinner with a baked potato. Best you are gunna get is a steak burger with a side of fries.

While I don't have the many gripes the OP does with the game, I do think it needs a third pillar of sorts in the open-world. Perhaps true world bosses or open-world dungeons? I've struggled to come up with a good idea. But, I just think we need a new kind of content.

Open world bosses already exist in the form of hunts. This worked better in FFXI because they could put a cap on the amount of people who could attack it at once. In FFXIV anyone and everyone can attack these "world bosses" so they melt.

For hunts to work properly in FFXIV, the difficulty would have to scale with the amount of people attacking the boss. Same thing would have to apply for an open world dungeon.

I'm a little disappointed that alex was more of a series of trials again rather than actual raid dungeons, the lack of trash/environmental mechanics overall is kinda sad. granted the boss fights are/will be fun but I tend to be in agreement with the lack of actual raid tiers, It'd be fine if the raids were large but they aren't.

Correct me if I'm wrong but WoW has more raids in each patch but they also have multiple difficulties of those said raids for various types of players yes? Would the same system work here as well? From what I've seen they seem to add more raids/dungeons in general and in multiple difficulties. Then again I've never played it so I'm open for someone to enlighten me.

Go compared Heavensward to Blizzards Warlords of Draenor... you will see just how good you actually have it. Heaps of WoW players have quit to join Eorzea.

OP, the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Just because the game doesn't cater to what you want, it addresses things that people have been looking for. The world does not revolve around you and this game was not designed just for you. It was designed for everyone. So please show some respect to the developmental team for releasing a great expansion pack, even though it did not satisfied your needs, it as satisfied us other players. The developmental team broke their backs rebuilding ARR and making this expansion, so show some respect for them. They are working hard at addressing things and they will listen to us. That is what the forum is for, it's for discussion and for also providing feedback to the game.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

Correct me if I'm wrong but WoW has more raids in each patch but they also have multiple difficulties of those said raids for various types of players yes? Would the same system work here as well? From what I've seen they seem to add more raids/dungeons in general and in multiple difficulties. Then again I've never played it so I'm open for someone to enlighten me.

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Yes but you'll get burned very quickly after doing the same bosses every week with a few extra mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Open world bosses already exist in the form of hunts. This worked better in FFXI because they could put a cap on the amount of people who could attack it at once.

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They can do the same here. You can't attack Treasure Hunt or Leve mobs that someone else is doing.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

They are working hard at addressing things and they will listen to us.

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Problem is when the developers actually listen to people on the boards. Imagine if they followed the TC's directions.

Crafting and Gathering certainly got a lot worse due to them listening to complaints on the forums. They went from being fun at release to becoming a second job.

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Originally Posted by Naraku_Diabolos

They are working hard at addressing things and they will listen to us. That is what the forum is for, it's for discussion and for also providing feedback to the game.

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This is exactly what the OP did, feedback and discussion, what is your issue here? Similarly one can say that the world doesn't revolve around you and that the game wasn't designed solely for you. Don't have such a condescending attitude about other peoples legitimate concerns.

I'm not sure what was so crappy about the 2.4 Bahamut fight. I guess it didn't live up to T9 but I enjoyed it regardless.

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Originally Posted by VargasVermillion

I'm a little disappointed that alex was more of a series of trials again rather than actual raid dungeons, the lack of trash/environmental mechanics overall is kinda sad. granted the boss fights are/will be fun but I tend to be in agreement with the lack of actual raid tiers, It'd be fine if the raids were large but they aren't.

Correct me if I'm wrong but WoW has more raids in each patch but they also have multiple difficulties of those said raids for various types of players yes? Would the same system work here as well? From what I've seen they seem to add more raids/dungeons in general and in multiple difficulties. Then again I've never played it so I'm open for someone to enlighten me.

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All of WoW's focus currently goes into their raids, leaving no content for anyone else to do. This game is better all around currently for MMO players because they focus on multiple things instead of putting all of their eggs in one basket. Putting so many resources on one thing inevitably drains from other areas. There is a finite amount of manpower and budget to go around.

Most people don't play this game for the raids anyways. I believe it was something around 5%? As fun as it would be to have more extensive raids, I'm not sure that would be a smart decision from a business standpoint.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

They can do the same here. You can't attack Treasure Hunt or Leve mobs that someone else is doing.



Problem is when the developers actually listen to people on the boards. Imagine if they followed the TC's directions.

Crafting and Gathering certainly got a lot worse due to them listening to complaints on the forums. They went from being fun at release to becoming a second job.

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Problem is locking the open world mobs to a small group of people would cause the community to be at each other's throats even more than the hunts currently do. People used to sit in Dragon's Aery in FFXI for 3 hours with their bots spamming, waiting to claim. Those who didn't claim it would try everything they could to MPK(Monster Player Kill) those who did claim it. It fostered an us vs them mentality. I'd rather do mob difficulty scaling like how FATEs are.

And yes, you are absolutely correct when you say devs listening to complainers from the forums can sometimes lead to negative consequences.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Problem is locking the open world mobs to a small group of people would cause the community to be at each other's throats even more than the hunts currently do. People used to sit in Dragon's Aery in FFXI for 3 hours with their bots spamming, waiting to claim. Those who didn't claim it would try everything they could to MPK(Monster Player Kill) those who did claim it. It fostered an us vs them mentality. I'd rather do mob difficulty scaling like how FATEs are.

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I know, I did FFXI's endgame too and don't want to see that utter crap HNM system ever again. They could make very challenging pop mobs though.

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Originally Posted by Kona_Nightwind

So what you are saying is there isn't one, all the games you describe crashed and burned or had very small player bases. Sound like a good business plan, SE should get right on it.

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Just what sort of logic are you using here? First of all, no Guild Wars at least was very successful, I haven't followed the others but as far as MMO's go, they certainly hold an above average player base.
Second, are you really so simple as to claim that the success/failure of an MMO, directly correlates with the difficulty of it's content or the complexity of characters builds? As if there is nothing else in existence that has to do with MMO popularity, say like production values, world design, combat or just the general difficulty of making a game within the MMORPG landscape?

In case you've forgotten WoW, back when it was a lot more popular had very hard raids and detailed talent trees and no one complained. If we are to use this sort of ridiculous logic we can actually just say that as the decline in the WoW player base was due to the increasing simplification of content, the timing coincides perfectly with the end of Lich King where the trend started.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I know, I did FFXI's endgame too and don't want to see that utter crap HNM system ever again. They could make very challenging pop mobs though.

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Making some S-rank mobs as hard as the Odin and Behemoth FATEs when they came out, capable of wiping out half the server, that would certainly be interesting. If they can make FATEs scale, they should be able to make Hunts scale, though the systems would work a bit differently. AFAIK, FATEs scale by how many people were in the FATE the previous time. This would be much more difficult to do in Hunts, as some of them spawn rarely with varying results of people. What they need to do then is sift through their data and see how many people typically fight in these A and S rank hunts, and adjust the HP/difficulty accordingly.

I have 3 players in same house I pay for monthly so we can all enjoy the game together. If things don't get alot different we might just spend our money elsewhere. No need to let the door hit me on the way out I know how ppl feel. I'll leave when I'm ready to. When my mind is finally made up not before then.

I agree with most of what OP said. Don't agree with the gear re-skin though. I think they did an excellent job with gear this time around, except alexander gear....its fudging horrible!. Also this game probably won't ever do non linear progression, which can be disappointing but this game wasn't made for people that like to play in-depth, it was made for people that want to just play and not worry about anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Ferocious

Or have raid attunement, world bosses, rep grinds, open world drops, etc to provide different options for gearing.

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These are all major flaws that other games do to artificially extend the life of content. None of these things are fun.

I agree with most of your points. There are definitely some issues that need addressing since the expack.

Fates need to be revamped in the new areas, reasons to go back to areas you discovered flight and new mechanics should be in place. I've only done HM on the new primals and I enjoyed the fights, but they seem too similiar to older fights. I think SE needs to mix up the mechanics and add some challenges into the mix.

As for gear, I felt they did a better job this time around. I just wish more of the new gear was dyeable.

In my opinion this game needs a revamp on its raids, new challenges that don't involve repetitive and familiar mechanics, Upgraded fate rewards in the newer areas, and a new Hunt system. Not to mention PVP is obsolete and needs a huge overhaul. Overall though, I'm satisfied with how far the game has come and am looking forward to the future changes. There are many things SE has listened to and corrected in the past.

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Originally Posted by Lucidbro

WoW, back when it was a lot more popular had very hard raids and detailed talent trees and no one complained

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Actually the downward spiral in WoW came from stupid design decisions and a year of gap between content patches...twice (going on three times now). Nice try at cherry picking though.

BC/Wrath were popular because it was the only game of its kind back in the day. Not because "raids were hard". There were no instanced raids even remotely close to what WoW did. We played it because there was nothing else like it. The next closest thing you had was Aion, and that was nothing than a glorified dressing room. No one complained because they didn't know any better.

Wildstar is a perfect example of why attunement and "super hard" content is bad these days. I hear that game is doing well. Go jump into one of those raids if you wish to live "super hard raids" again see if the nostalgia holds up for you. I'm willing to bet it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Lucidbro

Angry WoW forum post.

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First I never said Guild Wars wasn't successful (relative), I referred to it as having a small player base (relative). Second I have no idea where you got any of that from what I've said. Try reading everything I've typed and what I'm responding to. I never referenced difficulty once, I did however refer to the amount of content that SE put out. I'm basing success on money plain and simple. When did WoW players not complain about WoW, I think never. I left WoW because of he crap community, what I'm worried about is FFXIV community turning into that. Posts like yours just reinforce those fears.

There are character builds in FFXIV, it's just that they're called Classes/Jobs, and each one has a different play style. Think of jobs as fighting game characters. You learn the move list and combos the same as you would for a fighting game character but each has pros, cons, mechanics, properties, etc.

Don't be fooled into the 'illusion of choice'. FFXI, for those who never played it, has somethng called the "Merit" system for players to continue their character's growth once the level cap is reached. Upon reaching the level cap (used to be 75), additional EXP was converted into Limit Points which after accruing 10k, gave you 1 "Merit Point". Merit points could be used to purchase bonuses which are either universal (+HP/MP, +Base stats), or job specific bonuses (new trait, spell, or ability). The illusion of choice in that system was each category had a cap, so you couldn't unlock and upgrade everything for your job, only a few (i.e. unlock the Lv.1 version of all 5 things for your job..or unlock 2 things but upgrade them to Lv.5). The issue was...there was ALWAYS a best option. Some of the traits/spells/abilities were worthless, some were amazing. You *COULD* unlock the weird ones and claim it helps 'your build' but you would be ostrcized when you were invited to a raid and were expected to have a certain skill. Example 1: You purchase all the +STR upgrades for your character, but when you played a mage job, you missed out on potential INT/MND bonuses. This reduced your job's efficacy, albeit very slightly. A more pertinent example: DRG in FFXI had a merit ability called "Angon", which reduced the target's Defense by 20% for 30 seconds. Maxing out Angon cost 5 out of the 10 category points and increased the duration to 60 seconds, which was amazingly valuable. A DRG that forgoes maxing out Angon in favor of some other ability, despite having a 'choice', would result in a kick or not being invited. ILLUSION OF CHOICE. A third example was Red Mage which had 5 spells with merits: Dia 3 (-15% defense down), Bio 3 (-15% attack), Paralyze 2 (chance to interrupt a target's spell/auto attack), Slow 2 (reduce a target's auto attack), Blind 2 (reduced a target's accuracy). With that merit system, a Red Mage could unlock each of those spells and upgrade them all to level 2, but that build would have been considered worthess compared to a player that had Dia 3 and Slow 2 maxed out, with the other spells not even unlocked.
ILLUSION OF CHOICEEEEE

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Originally Posted by Jonnycbad

There are character builds in FFXIV, it's just that they're called Classes/Jobs, and each one has a different play style. Think of jobs as fighting game characters. You learn the move list and combos the same as you would for a fighting game character but each has pros, cons, mechanics, properties, etc.

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That's not what a character build is....

All your complaints hold little to no merit. I just came back to a FFXIV after a 5 month hiatus and wow am I glad to be back, I forgot how much better this game handles everything compared to other MMOs like WoW and others. Not to mention the games actually a challenge at times, don't worry if you leave just pretend I took your spot! :3

I agree wholeheartedly with the loot progression. It is boring grinding the same 2 dungeons for law tomes and then joining a Hunt LS and zerging all the A ranks for a few days. The most challenging thing is dealing with baddies in DF and getting into the right instance before the hunt mark is dead. With Alex, progression is based on how many times you can face-roll the content before RNG lets you win a token.

As for the skill tree debate, whether you go with FFXIV's current skill system or a skill tree, there is no difference. With either, an optimized set-up will arise. But, a skill-tree has more longevity than what we currently have because you can expand it indefinitely. I don't look forward to having my entire keyboard mapped for 1 opener. Something needs to be done and HW just punted the problem down the road.

As for the other QoL stuff, I don't know how you can complain. Where the hell is our third free retainer?

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Originally Posted by Rekujin

Go compared Heavensward to Blizzards Warlords of Draenor... you will see just how good you actually have it. Heaps of WoW players have quit to join Eorzea.

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As is evident by the large decline in forum post quality.

The only two 'cons' I'm inclined to partially agree with are

Linear gear progression and no character building.

I've said for a long time here and other games that there need to be more variety for obtaining gear than "ZOMGLETSRAIDGRIND!" But people are narrow minded and don't want to hear it. they're happy with their simpleminded mindnumbing grind, so be it.

Character building could be as much of a negative detractor as it could be a godsend. I think SE could do it well and beat the issues other games face when implementing similar systems. But again it's one of those things that hasn't really been done right yet.. so the narrowminds step in and say it can't/shouldn't be done.

They make it too hard, players make threads about it being too hard. They make it to easy, players make threads about it being too easy. Players are like a overly picky child/woman. I wouldn't want SE's job for the world.

The linear progression and tome grind is the worst of it and it does not seem like something Yoshi wants to change. He thinks it is okay that people play for a couple of weeks and then unsubs until the next patch. It is so lolworthy there are no words, but what can you do. Can't wait for EQN.

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Originally Posted by Ronzeru

They make it too hard, players make threads about it being too hard. They make it to easy, players make threads about it being too easy. Players are like a overly picky child/woman. I wouldn't want SE's job for the world.

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I used to develop on small projects. Tiny games most people have never heard of for the most part, mainly text based games but on larger scale than your common basement ran MUD. Believe me when I say that players generally don't know their ass from a hole in the ground. Not about what a game needs or even less on what they want in a game. It's the big picture they lack. They can't see the game as a whole, only their chosen focus at any given time.

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Originally Posted by Rumpelstiltzkin

Can't wait for EQN.

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I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. If Landmark is any indication of what to expect from EQN, this game and a couple others will still be the goto games. While they were still SoE and Dave Georgeson was still on board.. MAYBE. Not now.

I will try to be as unbiased as possible. These are my opinions and experiences, so if you care to read OP, or anyone else, I am not trying to change the game to cater to only myself. I actually have no concrete suggestions that are long thought out. I will just throw out ideas and share what I think about this game.

I have been playing actively since April 2014. So I have a year and 3 months playing FF14. In that time I grew to love this game. The only other MMO I have ever played in my life is DC Universe online. In my time playing FF14, I made cool friends, met assholes, played various battle classes/jobs, raided, etc. The only thing I have not delved into is crafting/gathering (yet). I loved most things about this game. Then came Heavensward.

The story, new huge areas, flight, new job skills, excitement of new dungeons, new gear (some re-skins that are available to more jobs), made me so happy and giddy. Shortly after I beat the story, I started hunting and looking for new statics to be raid ready. As soon as this happened, I started to enjoy the game a lot less, and see what I actually didn't like about ARR. It hit me like a truck. I was now doing the same shit as before. I was failing at hunts (even in a party actively hunting, I would miss A's and S ranks. People were relentless on my server with early pulls), and I was grinding tomestones (Myth, Soldiery, Poetics) in order to gear up again so that I can run EX primals for a weapon (like Shiva's Diamond weapons), to then raid. Huh, felt familiar. Let's see hunts still blows (grinding for new sands, oil) and the only time hunts were awesome were in patch 2.4 I believe, basically the patch when most were not hunting anymore, I don't remember which). Law is Darklight 2.0, and I was in a rush to be at the top again. It felt so awful that I decided to become a "casual". I decided to play at my own pace, I decided to stop hardcore raiding.

I admit, it stung hard seeing people with Hive weapons and max geared while I wasn't. My competitive nature urged me to do the same shit again, but playing the story at my own pace made me see how free I was playing. People in my LS and free company were farming Ravana EX by like the 3rd day of early access. Now I see how SE played it real safe. No I am not calling them lazy. I know they worked their asses off, but I already got through the best part of the expansion in my eyes. Soon we will get a new Crystal Tower, Syrcus Tower, World of Darkness with more of the same formula, and a new relic weapon to go through hell with. There is no real fundamental change.

What can they do? I honestly don't know seeing how my MMO experience is limited. Perhaps like a base defense/horde mode? Open world PVP? Further character customization? 2man dungeons? (Like DCUO duos mode and no not overgeared lv unsync), raids that involve environmental interactions? (No not just pressing 1 button to active a shield like in Leviathan EX or Bismarck), I really don't know. I can't really put my finger on it, but take away the shiny wrapping paper, and 3.0 is more of 2.X. This is why I will have a different approach to playing because it works for me. I can only suggest the awesome things I loved in DCUO, but that MMO is vastly different. SE said it themselves that ARR was more about building a foundation. Now is the time to gamble with new ideas. Do I really want to go through 3.X and then do the same in 4.X?