supervirus more impactful than proshell

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

I'm curious what you mean by lower potential? Scholar is certainly the more technical job...

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I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

WHM is very bread and butter in the grand scheme of things and has an overall lower skill ceiling (and thus a lower potential) versus a SCH (and thus a lower potential).

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So much speculation without real numbers yet. Who knows maybe the whm regen bubble of lol is on par with having a regen 2 like potency? maybe ast and sch shields don't stack. maybe pld shields do stack but are based on the heal they receive as to the strength of the shield so a high potency heal will be best for activating it. there is a whole deck of ast cards we don't know about yet. we aren't sure what's a toggle and what's a buff. with all these shields and regens we don't know what they are planning on for content. Does virus and disable stack? Is there really a need to solo heal end-game raid content other than just to say you did? So who cares if a sch can but whm can't? There seems to be a lot more shielding/heals being sent to "nearby party members" aka melee dps/ot. Why? Do we expect a lot of unavoidable aoe damage in new content or do we assume maybe there are mass add phases where lots of people are taking damage?

With so little information there sure is a lot of "talking out one's posterior". We have some press people playing for a bit. Do they play regularly? Did they have time to really get a feel for a class or just try and use skills whether it was an appropriate time for it? Ast seems weak? Did they have time to figure out the class? Sch sure can seem weak even now in easy content they are overgeared for if they never really took the time to understand the class. What kind of dps can we get from an Ast?

Every job role thread is so much speculation and back and forth with not even half the information.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

I realize how ambiguous that statement is due to the way I structured it, lol.

Because WHM has a lower skill ceiling, it also has an overall lower potential versus SCH. Wasn't implying SCH had a lower potential. xD Should've rephrased it to be:

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No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

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Originally Posted by Virin

So much speculation without real numbers yet. Who knows maybe the whm regen bubble of lol is on par with having a regen 2 like potency? maybe ast and sch shields don't stack. maybe pld shields do stack but are based on the heal they receive as to the strength of the shield so a high potency heal will be best for activating it. there is a whole deck of ast cards we don't know about yet. we aren't sure what's a toggle and what's a buff. with all these shields and regens we don't know what they are planning on for content. Does virus and disable stack? Is there really a need to solo heal end-game raid content other than just to say you did? So who cares if a sch can but whm can't? There seems to be a lot more shielding/heals being sent to "nearby party members" aka melee dps/ot. Why? Do we expect a lot of unavoidable aoe damage in new content or do we assume maybe there are mass add phases where lots of people are taking damage?

With so little information there sure is a lot of "talking out one's posterior". We have some press people playing for a bit. Do they play regularly? Did they have time to really get a feel for a class or just try and use skills whether it was an appropriate time for it? Ast seems weak? Did they have time to figure out the class? Sch sure can seem weak even now in easy content they are overgeared for if they never really took the time to understand the class. What kind of dps can we get from an Ast?

Every job role thread is so much speculation and back and forth with not even half the information.

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We actually do have answers to some of those questions, but all in all, you're right. No one will really know until the dataminers go to town on the patch and then when the new raids open. That said, the press at the event were FFXIV endgame players before the event. But in the end, it was still a limited preview.

edit: All that said, if people are going to argue WHM is dead (yet again...) before the expansion, I might as well argue it's not ：)

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

snip

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In that practical scenario, what is the other healer doing? I don't believe I have mentioned that Scholars can completely eradicate the role White Mage have right now. They're simply getting new spells and abilities to their existing kit that aids them in a weak area. Which would be AoE healing in particular. If Scholars are still maintaining their supportive healer role, not much will change for them. Unless Astrologian AoE healing is so severely weak compared to either healers, I doubt there's a need to blow more than 1 aetherflow for the AoE heal they are getting.

But to the point; Scholars have a supportive healing role with the current meta and very likely will keep it in Heavensward. Especially when undergeared for content and/or progressing. I don't doubt any composition isn't viable, be it whm/ast, ast/sch or whm/sch. But scholars have, without doubt, an edge as supportive healer compared to White Mage and Astrologian. Astrologians have some affinity towards the role Scholars have with the current meta, but nowhere as good. Cards aren't spammable (30s CD according to some document) and Disable, while potent in it's own way, cannot be compared with Virus. Regardless, Astrologian definitely has more affinity for said role than White Mage. So what Nihility posted is very plausible:

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Originally Posted by Nihility

The general feeling for a while now is scholar will be the required healer and astrologian and white mage will be fighting for the second spot.

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So unless Astrologian healing capacity in severely less than White Mage, that second spot will probably be shared with the two. With severe I meant bad enough that the other healer has to compensate more than they should be doing. However, if Astrologians have a healing kit that can somewhat rival White Mage, the buffing capability of astrologian may be favored over the raw healing white mages possess. Of course, this will all depend on the potency and details of the kit Astrologians will have. Apparently the preliminary patch notes will be announced during a live stream*, so we'll know soon enough. Reminder: I'm not claiming that White Mages are no longer viable, more in the context where Scholars pretty much have a guaranteed spot.

* http://eu.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/topics/detail/e70e4ffa10fe619e5e25d3dd59d7ff5f93a77cc1

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

ASTs have to deal with RNG though. You can't guarantee that you'll buff a party's or party member's DPS at any given moment. In fact, you might just make them or the whole party take a vulnerability up debuff.

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Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

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This. At worst, yes, you won't be "buffing their DPS" if you draw the MP reduction card, the TP reduction card, or the damage reduction card, but there could be arguments that via resource management assistance you are "effectively" increasing DPS with every AST card you use.

I know nobody wants WHM to be ousted from the current progression meta, but unless AST's regen sect is really underwhelming and/or SCH's raw healing buffs aren't as good as we think they are currently, I really do think this might be what happens in hardcore "first"-type groups.

Since astrologian cards became a topic now :P

You'd be surprised at the MP reduction card. The 20% reduced cost would mean a black mage can squeeze in an extra fire during astral fire. That is, assuming they still have a 5-spell rotation during astral fire (with or without the new spell). There is also the thing called Spread. You could put away Bole for incoming tank busters or other situations where you'd need that -10% mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

In that practical scenario, what is the other healer doing? I don't believe I have mentioned that Scholars can completely eradicate the role White Mage have right now. They're simply getting new spells and abilities to their existing kit that aids them in a weak area. Which would be AoE healing in particular. If Scholars are still maintaining their supportive healer role, not much will change for them. Unless Astrologian AoE healing is so severely weak compared to either healers, I doubt there's a need to blow more than 1 aetherflow for the AoE heal they are getting.

But to the point; Scholars have a supportive healing role with the current meta and very likely will keep it in Heavensward. Especially when undergeared for content and/or progressing. I don't doubt any composition isn't viable, be it whm/ast, ast/sch or whm/sch. But scholars have, without doubt, an edge as supportive healer compared to White Mage and Astrologian. Astrologians have some affinity towards the role Scholars have with the current meta, but nowhere as good. Cards aren't spammable (30s CD according to some document) and Disable, while potent in it's own way, cannot be compared with Virus. Regardless, Astrologian definitely has more affinity for said role than White Mage. So what Nihility posted is very plausible:

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Well, I was trying to put SCH in the shoes of a WHM there (pre echo of course...). Yes, another healer can alleviate that load. Ordinarily, a WHM would do most of the HP/S, with the SCH shielding&lustrating for the worst spikes but DPSing every moment the WHM can handle on its own. And there's a lot WHM can do on its own.

If both healers are focusing on healing primarily and not really DPSing... even if that's an AST and SCH combo... then I agree, I think everything will be handled without much issues.

As for Nihility's scenario, I really think that depends on the value people see in a SCH. If it's "can virus/lustrate while DPSing and stance dance to shield busters"... then AST will need to be capable of handling a lot of heals solo.

I don't think supervirus is make or break, as SMNs will have it and ASTs will have an equivalent. Possibly AST will be virtually guaranteed a slot, because it has virus-like mitigation, shields, and party buffs? For all we know, AST might replace SCH better than it replaces WHM. But I don't think any combo of the three healers, as long as classes aren't stacked, will have too much trouble.

We'll see soon XD

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

Except for the fact, it's been stated time and time again, that the bad AST card was a mistranslation. Yoshi even quoted AST has no bad cards.

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Apparently I missed that update. But, even if it can't backfire, RNG is RNG.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

No, I think your sentence was on the mark. I mean, I'm curious about in what way you think WHM has lower potential?

In some ways I would agree. WHM can't DPS as much, or flow from DPS/healing/DPS as naturally. SCH does reward ability to multitask very well. On the other hand, I do not think SCH's HP/S potential is as high as WHM.

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In terms of my sentence and generally speaking - a higher skill ceiling means a higher level of technical play which in turn translates into a more rewarding and higher class potential. This isn't always the case, but I think in this particular case it is.

Sleigh put it pretty much down on paper earlier in the first page and I agree with most of their points. Likewise, I also agree that WHMs limiting factor in any long fight is their MP. I've done WoDs as both SCHs and WHMs, playing in a similar style of heavy DPS / off-healing and found the most limiting factor of WHM is their MP pool.

If you look at WHM potency/MP, they're really quite low compared SCH.

Bio = 240 pot / 106 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Bio II = 350 pot / 159 MP = 2.20 pot/mp
Miasma = 300 pot / 133 MP = 2.26 pot/mp
Ruin = 80 pot / 53 mp = 1.51 pot/mp

Not comparing Aero because Aero is for both

Aero II = 210 pot / 133 mp = 1.58 pot/MP
Stone II = 170 pot / 159 mp = 1.07 pot/MP

If you compare the math, WHM is incredibly inefficient compared to their SCH counter part. Yes SCH, needs more ramp up time to get full damage, but at the same time in any long fight you're looking for efficiency which SCH has in spades compared to WHM on the DPS department. While WHM total potency over a single GCD when all buffs are up is slightly higher than SCHs total potency (I think it's about 231 pot/GCD versus 217 pot/GCD), SCH will never run into an MP issue with their abilities, let alone the fact that they can Energy Drain for 200+ MP AND their Aetherflow gives them a much higher MP return per minute versus Shroud of Saints. Let's not include the fact that most "normalizing" healing for SCH (Fairy) has a higher potency than Regen, even if you account for the Fairy's lower MND score and WHM being able to uptime Regen w/ Divine Seal for about 40 seconds if they're playing right.

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

So, to TLDR that last bit of math
-WHM HPS about equal to SCH + Eos HPS
-WHM DPS >slightly> SCH DPS, but suffers from HUGE MP issues when they DPS thus limiting their DPS

That being said, I don't think WHM is a dead job by any stretch of the imagination, but I do hope for some helpful buffs come Heavensward to bring SCH and WHM closer together. I think WHM needs better MP regeneration tools. There was a thread earlier about how they should trait Cleric Stance to include means of increasing MP regeneration / decreasing spell costs and I think that's a step in the right direction as WHMs. Also, SCHs bring versatility. This should come at a cost (which will be coming with ANOTHER ability that feeds off Aetherflow). WHMs should have more impact on the field compared to SCH and their versatility.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Lots of stuff

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So, in short, you see a lot of value in SCH's DPS. (And that is OK).

As for HP/S... yes, if you look at the raw parse numbers, that is true. But... have you tried separating out the parse? A *lot* of that HP/S comes from rouse + WD. Which is an awesome AoE heal, but it's not burst and it has limited uptime. A lot of encounter success is having not overall HP/S, but HP/S when and where it needs to be (and lustrate is pretty awesome for that, even though it's encounter throughput is small)

Now SCH (Like WHM) is getting its weak areas shored up. More AoE heals, and it can eat the fairy for a further boost. But then you have to use Aetherflow stacks on that, and resummon the fairy. But using stacks on that AoE heal means less to use for burst single target heals (So you might have to drop out of cleric and plain old aldo/physick more). And if swiftcast isn't up for resummoning, that's more need for aldo/physick healing through spikes until a SCH can get the summon off...

In short... SCH will be able to heal a lot more with its new abilities, potentially replacing WHM, but that's DPS downtime.

I won't argue with versatility. In a pinch, SCH can either shield or focus on pure healing which WHM can't do. But I would see that as more of an asset for pugging or those nights where you need a static replacement...

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

-Snip-

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As you have rightfully mentioned, a raw HPS isn't important, it's about having the HPS at the right times. With that being said, I do find something seriously disturbing about the fact that a Sch + EOS combination CAN output as much HPS as a WHM. WHMs biggest perceived boon is the ability to output HPS. If a SCH + Eos can do the same HPS as a WHM, there's something amiss. Keep in mind I was doing this HPS with SCH + Eos WHILE outputting 150+ DPS during a pre-P3 progression group pre-Echo. That speaks volumes about SCHs power level right there. If SCH can do 1.2K HPS AND 150+ DPS and a WHM can only do 1.2K HPS and 50+ DPS, that makes the SCH a better contributor to the party dynamic (when looking at purely raw numbers). It should be more like a SCH can do 1K HPS while outputting 150 DPS while a WHM should be able to output 1.4K HPS and go nuts in the healing department.

The funny thing is, T13 is the current hardest heal check in the game, and the fight is almost perfectly structured to make use of all Whispering Dawn CDs at the right times. You'll generally always have Whispering Dawn up for Mega Flare into Rage of Bahamut in P2, you'll always have it up for Mega Flare in P4. You'll also always have Fey Covenant up for P1 and P2 Gigaflare and every shared Ahk Morn. Likewise, you'll always have a Virus for every Giga Flare. T13 almost feels like it was made with the SCH toolkit in mind and I hope this isn't the case for Alex.

With that being said, I hope they continue to design SCH with the current trend in mind. To me, SCH has always been about managing Aetherflow and cooldowns. Everything about a SCH screams less about MP and more about being able to manage your abilities. By adding more abilities to the mix, SCH now have to continue to think ahead in the game and feel where they feel are the best moments to use which abilities. Having ANOTHER ability tied to Aetherflow stacks means there will be more choices to make and more quick thought into your next few actions. SCHs should be about versatility and management. WHM should be about their immediate impact on the field.

[edit] Just to go back to your comment about my value in SCH DPS - it's less I value SCH DPS and more I value the contribution SCH brings to the group and DPS is just one of those factors. SCH contribution feels much higher (when played properly) versus a WHM.

The reason supervirus isn't on the table like protshell is comes from that it's an arcanist skill, not a scholar one. Summoners are still able to provide it, even without a scholar around, making balancing healing easier because losing scholar doesn't mean it's gone. If you wanna nuts and bolts try and compare White Mage and Scholar(and holy shit do you guys love to), sure it's something the scholar has over the white mage. However, as far as raid makeup goes it's not a thing where losing scholar means losing supervirus, which is the whole reason behind the protshell changes.

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Originally Posted by Verdan

The reason supervirus isn't on the table like protshell is comes from that it's an arcanist skill, not a scholar one. Summoners are still able to provide it, even without a scholar around, making balancing healing easier because losing scholar doesn't mean it's gone. If you wanna nuts and bolts try and compare White Mage and Scholar(and holy shit do you guys love to), sure it's something the scholar has over the white mage. However, as far as raid makeup goes it's not a thing where losing scholar means losing supervirus, which is the whole reason behind the protshell changes.

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Certainly true that SMN has it, but it'd mean a no SCH comp is semi-forced to use SMN in a T13 type scenario even - if - SMN is otherwise inefficient or ineffective. I'm not saying that it is, in fact I think SMN is going to be head and shoulders above its commonly viewed perception in ARR, but it'd be kind of lousy forcefully locking in a DPS spot just for Supervirus. I know that's not why I feel SCH should be locked in, it's just one part of it for me.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As you have rightfully mentioned, a raw HPS isn't important, it's about having the HPS at the right times. With that being said, I do find something seriously disturbing about the fact that a Sch + EOS combination CAN output as much HPS as a WHM. WHMs biggest perceived boon is the ability to output HPS. If a SCH + Eos can do the same HPS as a WHM, there's something amiss. Keep in mind I was doing this HPS with SCH + Eos WHILE outputting 150+ DPS during a pre-P3 progression group pre-Echo. That speaks volumes about SCHs power level right there. If SCH can do 1.2K HPS AND 150+ DPS and a WHM can only do 1.2K HPS and 50+ DPS, that makes the SCH a better contributor to the party dynamic (when looking at purely raw numbers). It should be more like a SCH can do 1K HPS while outputting 150 DPS while a WHM should be able to output 1.4K HPS and go nuts in the healing department.

The funny thing is, T13 is the current hardest heal check in the game, and the fight is almost perfectly structured to make use of all Whispering Dawn CDs at the right times. You'll generally always have Whispering Dawn up for Mega Flare into Rage of Bahamut in P2, you'll always have it up for Mega Flare in P4. You'll also always have Fey Covenant up for P1 and P2 Gigaflare and every shared Ahk Morn. Likewise, you'll always have a Virus for every Giga Flare. T13 almost feels like it was made with the SCH toolkit in mind and I hope this isn't the case for Alex.

With that being said, I hope they continue to design SCH with the current trend in mind. To me, SCH has always been about managing Aetherflow and cooldowns. Everything about a SCH screams less about MP and more about being able to manage your abilities. By adding more abilities to the mix, SCH now have to continue to think ahead in the game and feel where they feel are the best moments to use which abilities. Having ANOTHER ability tied to Aetherflow stacks means there will be more choices to make and more quick thought into your next few actions. SCHs should be about versatility and management. WHM should be about their immediate impact on the field.

[edit] Just to go back to your comment about my value in SCH DPS - it's less I value SCH DPS and more I value the contribution SCH brings to the group and DPS is just one of those factors. SCH contribution feels much higher (when played properly) versus a WHM.

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Well... WD is amazing, but to continue with the T13 example: Rouse + WD alone won't heal people up in time for Rage. Or in T12, it's uptime is not sufficient to heal through the p3 Flames of Rebirth spam (Although when it is up, it's very nice).

I really don't like HP/S as expressed by parsers because it doesn't represent things like that. (And using HoTs always makes the overheal counters shoot up...)

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Originally Posted by Verdan

The reason supervirus isn't on the table like protshell is comes from that it's an arcanist skill, not a scholar one. Summoners are still able to provide it, even without a scholar around, making balancing healing easier because losing scholar doesn't mean it's gone. If you wanna nuts and bolts try and compare White Mage and Scholar(and holy shit do you guys love to), sure it's something the scholar has over the white mage. However, as far as raid makeup goes it's not a thing where losing scholar means losing supervirus, which is the whole reason behind the protshell changes.

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The thing is, AST also gets their own similar ability (Although a poster on the previous page didn't think it would be viable for a reason I'm not clear on...). If it does stack without a shared antibodies lockout, SMN + AST will be quite powerful without needing SCH.

And, of course, there's Path, Dragon Kick, etc.

One thing to consider - in a RAID scenario one reason a SCH can provide dps is because the White Mage does such a good job of covering heals - they can basically use every GCD on healing and have the needed kit to do so. However, an AST will need to use their GCDs pretty often for card related abilities - it may take some of the SCH potential DPS away (which could or could not be made up for party dps via the card buffs).

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

~snip~

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The thing tho is that when it comes to endgame raiding eHP gains/ mitigation are significantly greater than raw healing so HP/s and the like means very little, especially in regards to WHM since a decent chunk ends up in overheals anyway. The reason WHM's future is looking dim is due to fact that their sole niche is being encroached on, their potent AoE heals.

The way SE set-up most raid instances is that you got your multi-target mechanics and your occasional raid busters. SCH tends to struggle with these unless Eos is on standby an ready with CD's, if not they usually haveta spam succor at a hefty time/mp cost or split embrace an physick duty. Either way it's a timely endeavour which can cause deaths if the next round of mechanics come before they finish. This is where the WHM shines, pop medica I/II or cure III an the jobs done in a fraction of the time. Assuming the AST's medica variant + Wheel of Fate isn't severely underpowered and toss in the odd indomitability it should bring those HP bars into the safe zone in about the same timeframe.

If that is the case what reason is there to bring a WHM? They don't bring any significant party buffs, they're heavily mp gated, their dps capability is poor due to said mp gating and with protect being normalized their mitigation is poor as well. Plus considering ASTs Synastry they'll prob be have an easier time solo-healing the tanks while SCH dps's than WHM currently. Their biggest boon to the party will more or less be stoneskin for tank busters an the like but assuming Disable isn't underpowered/long CD AST should be able to make up for that as well.

It doesn't help that of the five new skills for WHM only tetra is really good in regards to raiding (hopefully a respectable CD) with asylum potentially having its moments. The two dps skills are nigh useless, maybe two an a half if the dps aspect of Assize relies on acc. But I could be wrong an Ast is really underpowered or maybe some new traits could introduce potent strengths into their current kit but if not I def see SCH/AST being the go-to healer combo for early raid progression. That said, WHM will prob be god-tier in all other content lol

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

But to the point; Scholars have a supportive healing role with the current meta and very likely will keep it in Heavensward. Especially when undergeared for content and/or progressing. I don't doubt any composition isn't viable, be it whm/ast, ast/sch or whm/sch. But scholars have, without doubt, an edge as supportive healer compared to White Mage and Astrologian. Astrologians have some affinity towards the role Scholars have with the current meta, but nowhere as good.

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Someone must've been looking at the cards. How can we know that they have an edge as a supportive healer without first fully understanding and knowing what the Astrologian is bringing to the table? Yeah, ok, we've seen a few spells, but so far no potencies or anything else related to their toolkit.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

As you have rightfully mentioned, a raw HPS isn't important, it's about having the HPS at the right times. With that being said, I do find something seriously disturbing about the fact that a Sch + EOS combination CAN output as much HPS as a WHM. WHMs biggest perceived boon is the ability to output HPS. If a SCH + Eos can do the same HPS as a WHM, there's something amiss. Keep in mind I was doing this HPS with SCH + Eos WHILE outputting 150+ DPS during a pre-P3 progression group pre-Echo. That speaks volumes about SCHs power level right there. If SCH can do 1.2K HPS AND 150+ DPS and a WHM can only do 1.2K HPS and 50+ DPS, that makes the SCH a better contributor to the party dynamic (when looking at purely raw numbers). It should be more like a SCH can do 1K HPS while outputting 150 DPS while a WHM should be able to output 1.4K HPS and go nuts in the healing department.

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While true, do keep in mind that HPS is a misconceptualized value. HPS is near meaningless so long as the party has enough HP to survive whatever the next mechanic might be. Whether it comes from one or the other is also meaningless. I suppose the only way HPS may be useful is when it is compared to Overhealing. Even if a SCH can do 1.2k HPS with 150 DPS contributions, if they're overhealing by quite a bit, does it really matter? So long as your healers are working together as a team (which they should be), shenanigans could be had regardless.

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Originally Posted by UOdhn

Someone must've been looking at the cards. How can we know that they have an edge as a supportive healer without first fully understanding and knowing what the Astrologian is bringing to the table? Yeah, ok, we've seen a few spells, but so far no potencies or anything else related to their toolkit.

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It's been mentioned in a live stream that they have less DPS potential than Scholar and White mage. Which is pretty much what Scholars do when they're not healing. There's no specifics yet whether the card abilities eat away on their cooldown locks. Even if it did, you simply have to identify the right windows to draw cards and/or weave it in with the instant healing ability.

edit: Also, it's based on how current meta works. Unless Astrologian healing output is severely weaker than White Mage and Astrologian - Which I've mentioned in another post -, Astrologian is more suitable for the main healer role rather than supportive role. They'll only be drawing cards once every 30-35 seconds and not majority of their GCD on damage spells.

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

It's been mentioned in a live stream that they have less DPS potential than Scholar and White mage. Which is pretty much what Scholars do when they're not healing. There's no specifics yet whether the card abilities eat away on their cooldown locks. Even if it did, you simply have to identify the right windows to draw cards and/or weave it in with the instant healing ability.

edit: Also, it's based on how current meta works. Unless Astrologian healing output is severely weaker than White Mage and Astrologian - Which I've mentioned in another post -, Astrologian is more suitable for the main healer role rather than supportive role. They'll only be drawing cards once every 30-35 seconds and not majority of their GCD on damage spells.

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Yes, but DPS doesn't equal support. Where did this idea that support = DPS come from to begin with?

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Originally Posted by UOdhn

Yes, but DPS doesn't equal support. Where did this idea that support = DPS come from to begin with?

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I never mentioned that support equals dps. It's supportive healer, not support. Supportive healers aid main healer when needed. If astrologians were to take that role, they'd only be using cards every 30 seconds while having a lesser dps output when they do not need to help out with healing.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Well... WD is amazing, but to continue with the T13 example: Rouse + WD alone won't heal people up in time for Rage. Or in T12, it's uptime is not sufficient to heal through the p3 Flames of Rebirth spam (Although when it is up, it's very nice).

I really don't like HP/S as expressed by parsers because it doesn't represent things like that. (And using HoTs always makes the overheal counters shoot up...)

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Originally Posted by UOdhn

While true, do keep in mind that HPS is a misconceptualized value. HPS is near meaningless so long as the party has enough HP to survive whatever the next mechanic might be. Whether it comes from one or the other is also meaningless. I suppose the only way HPS may be useful is when it is compared to Overhealing. Even if a SCH can do 1.2k HPS with 150 DPS contributions, if they're overhealing by quite a bit, does it really matter? So long as your healers are working together as a team (which they should be), shenanigans could be had regardless.

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Quite right, both of you. HPS isn't a good gauge of a healer to be perfectly fair. However it's a very good gauge of determine a healer's healing potential. If WHM is tooted for raw healing, there's no way a SCH should ever be able to match a WHM in raw HPS when both of them are playing properly. Unfortunately and sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Stuff

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Indeed. Unfortunately, the ability to play a class badly far outstripes the ability to play it well, especially in the case of healers. If they truly wanted, SCHs could easily make up the HPS because you have to factor in EHP and their shields, which most parses do count as HPS. The potential on the WHM is still there, it's just that in general, we haven't really need to utilize it to that point yet. As to your argument that a SCH should never be able match a WHM's HPS, that's not essentially true. A SCH using Selene will likely never be able to do so. However, Eos is an altogether different beast. Roused and with whispering dawn, a SCH can match a WHM's HPS for a few seconds, unless they're spamming heals, which isn't necessarily the SCH's job in a raid scenario.

I get the impression that people are still talking about HP/S in the sense that a parser displays it. Maybe it's my fault and I should have used different wording... but consider this:

So ACT shows both the WHM and SCH doing about the same HPS. Does that mean they have equal potential? Well... suppose the SCH dies during Flames of Rebirth spam. The WHM can handle that on their own just fine (although it is a bit rough on MP). If the WHM dies... If WD isn't available, it's a wipe. Even as ACT is telling you HP/S is about level.

Or if we can jump slightly further back in history... how well did SCH do with t2 enrage method (or t4 enrage if you hit that)? It has about the same HP/S potential as WHM, right?

That said it sounds like the expac is shoring up this particular weakness.

Shouldn't we be thinking how AST will fit in with WHM or SCH. My understanding is that AST will have the ability to compliment either WHM or SCH much like how SCH and WHM cover each other weakness.

To go off on tangent and start speculating on progressing in the new raid without having a clue about the raid at all is no different to saying two AST or two WHM or AST/WHM combo wil be superior because or X reasons.

Most people with raid experience now do not have actual progress experience. Their experience comes from others who have discussed and over time refined builds and strategies. If anything most raiders have learned to execute the strategies developed by others.

If we look at how raid groups progress you'll see that both SCH and WHM were handling specific mechanics and healing in such a way to maximise healing efficiency.

The whole DPS matter came about once raid groups became geared well and were able survive with less healing. It has been already mentioned that SCH bring a lot of utility to a group but this utility does not come free. The price is a WHM doing the bulk of the healing.

We will find out in 2 days if the white mage goes the way of the do-do bird.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Quite right, both of you. HPS isn't a good gauge of a healer to be perfectly fair. However it's a very good gauge of determine a healer's healing potential. If WHM is tooted for raw healing, there's no way a SCH should ever be able to match a WHM in raw HPS when both of them are playing properly. Unfortunately and sadly, this doesn't seem to be the case.

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You say that now but you have always seemed to downplay people who wanted white mages buffed to the level of scholars. There is so much push back on the healer forums for meaningful white mage buffs which sadly do not seem to be happening with 3.0 minus the mini lustrate which scholar should never have had. Raw % based heals should have always been the realm of the white mage.

I am not so sure a regen bubble is even going to be remotely useful as long as mana is not really an issue. Since the second coils of bahamut and beyond healers have always strived to have people topped off within 1 second after a nasty blow of damage. As long as incoming damage can be predicted from the jump rope mechanics we all love that is ff 14 then the pure healing of a white mage will always be crippled. Regen is mainly useless when topping off people's hp always occurs in a quick manner.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

Also, funny enough if you're playing Eos + SCH, you're HPS is about equal to a WHM. When my group was first progressing through T13, I actually had a slightly higher HPS than the WHM in my group using SCH + Eos (we were both outputting about 1.1K-1.2K HPS leading up to P3 my WHM partner certainly had a higher ilvl due to me wearing ACC melded accessories - we both had a ton of overhealing of course). Once we got more comfortable with the fight and I swapped to Selene, the HPS was more reasonable but his HPS still remained up in that 1.1-1.2K range while mine dropped to 500 HPS.

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If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

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I assume it's more Eos' WD overhealing more than anything. With Fey Illumination and Rouse, her WD heals 500 a tick. Times that by at least 9. 4.5k a tick, Granted, this happens every 2 minutes; usually her WD only does roughly 400 a tick. In total, over 2 minutes, assuming maximum uptime, she heals at least 56.7k, or roughly 475 HP a second. That's also not including her much stronger Embrace during Rouse and Fey Illumination, which, if you're like me, like to manually spam, can also overheal to an extent.

*Numbers are based on my i110 healer alt

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

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I'm not too familiar with parsers, but the ones I've seen show total HPS (including overhealing) and then overhealing %.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I was under the impression that everyones parser will count out overhealing from HP/S and total healing done

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It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.

That's only with specific settings. If I remember correctly, this is the case when you're parsing simulated data (ie: disabling certain methods/options)

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

If both WHM and SCH are on same gear/skill and trying equally hard, I don't believe SCH and WHM get the same HP/S numbers on a fight like T13.
SCH has a easy time inflating parser numbers with succor shields in light to medium healing intensive fights.
But in T13 in particular the damage to the party is too high for that, medica and cure3 healbombs should heavily outheal the SCH.

There is some kind of flaw in your parser or math, or your team has been doing one perfect try and one ultra messed up.

How can both of you put out 1,2K (= 2,4 overall)(HP/S in my parsers is already filtering out overhealing, I suppose in yours too) on the one fight,
and the next fight you only do 500 (=1,7K overall) and still survive?
That would mean your party took close to 1K Damage per Second less on the second try.

Something seems fishy there.

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It's actually not fishy. We both we're sitting at 1.2K HPS while doing T13 progression at pretty close to i130. We both had 60% over heal because the fight was new to both of us at the time and we were both treating it like we were solo healing until we could find the natural synergies between us and determine where and when we could heal. Once we got over that initial hump and I made the switch to Selene since I knew my WHM could handle most of the AoE heals himself, we got our combined HPS down to 1.6K to 1.7K (SCH = 500, WHM = 1.1-1.2K) and our total overheal down to about 30%-40% (depending on how much accidental damage our DPS took).

With that being said, I don't know the nuances of the parser and what it can and cannot pick up with HPS as, well, I also understand HPS is a very tricky stat in terms of gauging any sort of performance. Instead, we used it as a means to find where we can find efficiencies and tune our heals according.

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.

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I just tested both A.C.T and FFXIVAPP. Both count hots only as overheal if its really overheal (correct), at least for myself.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

It's actually not fishy. We both we're sitting at 1.2K HPS while doing T13 progression at pretty close to i130. We both had 60% over heal because the fight was new to both of us at the time and we were both treating it like we were solo healing until we could find the natural synergies between us and determine where and when we could heal. Once we got over that initial hump and I made the switch to Selene since I knew my WHM could handle most of the AoE heals himself, we got our combined HPS down to 1.6K to 1.7K (SCH = 500, WHM = 1.1-1.2K) and our total overheal down to about 30%-40% (depending on how much accidental damage our DPS took).

With that being said, I don't know the nuances of the parser and what it can and cannot pick up with HPS as, well, I also understand HPS is a very tricky stat in terms of gauging any sort of performance. Instead, we used it as a means to find where we can find efficiencies and tune our heals according.

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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My tests with the parsers show otherwise about HP/S and overhealing.
I only seem get those numbers if I "overuse" succor and I suspect the shields may be the reason. Maybe you use another parser unknown to me but I still doubt your conclusion about WHM vs. SCH HP/S

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I just tested both A.C.T and FFXIVAPP. Both count hots only as overheal if its really overheal (correct), at least for myself.

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Went ahead and tried it myself and it's correct, they actually fixed. Like 2 months ago every single HoT from regen and medica II would count as overheal.

I'm not trying to undermine the strength of SCH, and of course I might be wrong, but I can't imagine that situation in Turn13 given both have the same skill and capable group.
Still, like Grishlain said HP/S (and I would say overheal to an extend) is not really a factor to judge by. Even after counting out possible parser errors it's heavily reliant on overall group performance as well and you can only heal as much as damage is incoming.

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Originally Posted by mp-please

It doesn't, also every HoT counts as overhealing for some reason even if the target isn't at full hp. Which makes hps a complete useless "stat" when it comes to measure healer performance since one can just sit on the corner and spam heal on themselves to get a huge amount of hps.

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Every HoT as overhealing isn't quite correct, but I agree with the rest of your post. On a parser, encounter hps is a useless stat. It's not even like DPS, where more is necessarily better. HoTs do inflate it as well, but that's true for both jobs. Gishlain's stat of about 1.2k... That's close to what my group gets. But, again, it's not a meaningful number.

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Originally Posted by Ghishlain

What frightens me, and as I've mentioned before, HPS isn't a way to determine a person's skill - it's a way to determine a healer's healing potential. I should never, ever, have ever been able to, as a SCH, match the healing potential of a WHM who slightly over gears me. If that's a flaw with the parser in question - I can accept that and move on happily. If that's not a flaw with the parser, then I think we need to rethink the balance of between a WHM and a SCH. Of course I would prefer it to be the former than the latter and be proven wrong entirely. I'm just basing my opinion on the observations I've seen with my own group.

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WHM still has top throughput. You'll see similar numbers because of 1. HoT inflations (very powerful over time, but not immediately) and 2. It's the whole encounter. Potential HP/S for an encounter, unlike DPS, is not uncapped. If you heal less, the WHM heals more. If you heal about 1000 hp/s worth, then the WHM scales back because more healing isn't needed.

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone. Or t2/t4 enrage back when those were things. Or remember titan hm/ex back when they were current, hm in particular, if the group took too long you would get a lot of stomps. We have echo and vastly out gear it now but that used to be medica-only territory.

I'll stop using HP/S then. WHMs have the highest potential throughput. ...And with SCH AoE and single-target burst being gated by aetherflow that may well remain the case, even if the job is stronger in AoE come the expansion.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone.

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Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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Originally Posted by Lumis

Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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Well. I stand corrected. XD

Then, that raises the question... can someone analyze why WHM was able to solo heal t13 before sch? I would have though t12, with that AoE spam bit, would be the tough one.

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Originally Posted by Spoekes

I'm not trying to undermine the strength of SCH, and of course I might be wrong, but I can't imagine that situation in Turn13 given both have the same skill and capable group.
Still, like Grishlain said HP/S (and I would say overheal to an extend) is not really a factor to judge by. Even after counting out possible parser errors it's heavily reliant on overall group performance as well and you can only heal as much as damage is incoming.

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Originally Posted by Risvertasashi

WHM still has top throughput. You'll see similar numbers because of 1. HoT inflations (very powerful over time, but not immediately) and 2. It's the whole encounter. Potential HP/S for an encounter, unlike DPS, is not uncapped. If you heal less, the WHM heals more. If you heal about 1000 hp/s worth, then the WHM scales back because more healing isn't needed.

Again, a SCH can't handle Flames of Rebirth spam alone. Or t2/t4 enrage back when those were things. Or remember titan hm/ex back when they were current, hm in particular, if the group took too long you would get a lot of stomps. We have echo and vastly out gear it now but that used to be medica-only territory.

I'll stop using HP/S then. WHMs have the highest potential throughput. ...And with SCH AoE and single-target burst being gated by aetherflow that may well remain the case, even if the job is stronger in AoE come the expansion.

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I'm just glad we can have a meaningful discussion about all this without it devolving into some random name calling fest that this forum is prone for =p

In terms of HPS, yes, there are a lot of factors that can affect it. Note that I mentioned when both of us were out putting 1.2K HPS, we were both getting used to the fight and progressing through it. In total that HPS will be slightly inflated because it takes place during P1 and P2 where there is heavy healing involved. Those values would obviously drop once we were able to account for P3 because P3 healing is incredibly light compared to the prior two phases. With that being said, I still stand by my point that my HPS should never match my WHMs HPS (it probably does help that T13 does feel perfectly structured for Whispering Dawn usage as most raid attacks are slightly over a minute apart) and in part that probably will inflate my number more.

I also understand that every fight will require different compositions and strategies because they are, well different fights. Like how T2 enrage required double WHM, Flames of Rebirth is better for WHMs than it is for SCHs, Odin trial is better for WHMs than it is for SCH; likewise double SCH composition works well for other fights like all of BCoB outside of T2 enrage or double SCH for single tank Ramuh EX. In this particular case, it may just be because of how perfectly structured T13 is for SCH and their cooldowns, putting the spot light on SCHs power.

Though in the end, this discussion is all moot because we're getting EA Heavensward on Friday and servers will be down tomorrow, lol. Though I do enjoy the riveting discussion. *Offers tea to everyone so we can continue the discussion*

PS, why does no one know how to spell my name right? >>;... lol~

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Originally Posted by Lumis

Turn 12 SCH solo heal. NO ECHO. :)

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This is a unique scenario in the healing world of raids because the heal check for T12 becomes EASIER the higher your DPS goes, specifically when you're reaching the threshold that allows you to reduce the amount of Bennus you have to deal with. Higher DPS means significantly less time in the Bennu phase and thus less Flames of Rebirth to deal with.

The scenario Risvertasashi was speaking of in his example is if a healer dies or d/cs just before P3 starts so now you have one healer solo healing it with only four DPS and probably four Bennus in pre-echo state. That would be much harder to handle on a SCH versus a WHM (though I don't think it'd be impossible).