Take it easy on the Nerfing :/

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

I'm taking about the Alexander raids though. Unless you are referring to the one above it; to which I say, "Communication". Even with the adjustments to the trial, you still won't get anywhere without communication. That aside, if you were referring to the part I removed; it's just a given. There are players who are in it for the loot. Some people just really like the shinies.

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I guess I should have mention the part of you comment I was referring to on nerf arguments on the forums eventually happening, which was Alex Savage, not SOF. Savage content and main scenario content are two different things. Nerf argument to savage content are different because savage content is an extra mode to an existing content, it is designed to be harder, and optional.

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Originally Posted by Kallera

I guess I should have mention the part of you comment I was referring to on nerf arguments on the forums eventually happening, which was Alex Savage, not SOF. Savage content and main scenario content are two different things. Nerf argument to savage content are different because savage content is an extra mode to an existing content.

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Ah, I see. That point was completely off-topic and was meant to address specifically on the Alexander raids; which is why I removed it. It wasn't in any way related to the Steps of Faith or the MSQ at all. I believe it was merely just an observation on my part that something akin to what I had stated would likely occur. Like I said, some people just really like the shinies. xD

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Well, that's fine and all, but you do have to consider one thing; future content.

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That's a bold assumption. No, if anything, I would speculate that we hit the cap of what we would see with casual dungeon difficulty with the last three instances we have had. All that forcing heavy communication in casual dungeons does is reduce your playerbase as the pacing of this game is tuned too fast for true co-ordination to be instilled on the casual level.

Instead, I will speculate right now -expect the game to tilt MORE casual with Heavensward. Alexander Normal is the practice mode for Hard, and is released BEFORE hard mode is. That's a direct opposite of what we had with Coil. I expect Alexander Hard to maintain a challenging difficulty.

While I expect new and interesting things to come of the dungeons we are released, I don't expect the competency requirement to pass these dungeons will escalate further than what we already have.

It'll likely be the classes themselves that grow in complexity, with new skills to be added.

I'm all for a nerf when it's catch up content. Sure, Steps of Faith has been out for a while now, but there's nothing to really catch up to, just completing the story. I play pretty regularly, at a "medium-core" pace, and I haven't even completed the MSQ, thinking that I had plenty of time before the expac to bang it out at my leisure. I suppose I'm just a little disappointed that I won't even get to see the fight as it was originally intended to be, and there's not even a way to reverse it if I wanted to try, as there is with echo buffs.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

The nerf to Steps of Faith wasn't needed. All that was needed was actual communication between the 8 members.
Honestly. It really wasn't that hard. I know I failed a couple times in the beginning but the DF group I was with kept trying, and eventually won.

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I didn't know we could solve the "bad players" problem with a few lines in the chat.

Last time I ran the trial (before the nerfs) the cannoneers were terrible. Thanks to your tip, I now know that I'll just tell them to "shoot the big dragon better!" to magically make them good players, well able to do their duty. Hooray!


... Stop thinking that communication was the only thing preventing people to get their clear. On SoF, before nerfs, if only two, or even one player was performing badly, the whole group would fail. And that happened A LOT. So much that people were more willing to take the 30mn lock in the face rather than stay for that trial.

I've run it quite a few time, and I can assure you that telling everyone what to do doesn't make a big difference if you don't start with a full team of at least competent players.

Not being able to carry people and balance their mistakes was the big problem of this trial.
Now, a very talented individual joining the group can turn the tide.
Yes, not being able to carry people was the big problem. And being able to carry people is something to expect in the MQS.

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Originally Posted by UltimateAoe2

I guess everyone wants a easy game.

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If that was the case, it would make you the very tiny vocal minority... and they won't change the game and completly switch their target target audience for you.

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Originally Posted by Hyrist

Instead, I will speculate right now -expect the game to tilt MORE casual with Heavensward.

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That goes for you too. Bold assumption there. Then again, we don't know much considering that there isn't much official info to go on. All we can do now is pretty much speculate for future content. Regardless, this is an MMO and there isn't much anyone can change about it. Communication is pretty much a big deal and can be tied to competency checks. Namely, being able to communicate with your party members on who does what and what does who. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hopefully they can include content for everyone; Casual, Midcore, and Hardcore players.

Most of the requested adjustments for Steps that I've seen was to add a sort of reset option when it's obvious that it's going to be a wipe. Steps was never a hard trial, unless the majority of your party are a bunch of lazy ass brain-dead fuckwits. I didn't feel that HP needed to be reduced in the trial, but since the next major patch is most likely going to be 3.0, they probably want more of the player base to be able to access 3.0 by June 19th/ 23rd. Not that I feel that the HP reduction of Vishap & the adds are going to help. People are still going to wipe on this because they're lazy as hell.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

That goes for you too. Bold assumption there. Then again, we don't know much considering that there isn't much official info to go on. All we can do now is pretty much speculate for future content. Regardless, this is an MMO and there isn't much anyone can change about it. Communication is pretty much a big deal and can be tied to competency checks. Namely, being able to communicate with your party members on who does what and what does who. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Hopefully they can include content for everyone; Casual, Midcore, and Hardcore players.

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Agreed. As far as my taking bold statements - I have a pretty strong track record of being accurate with my statements. Mainly cause I've been following them since NA release of FFXI. I take no shame in admitting when I'm wrong. It just seems that I have a good feel for these things. (For better or worse, I've made calls I didn't want to happen, that came true too x.x)

But yeah, character complexity up, endgame appeals down to more casual players (probably wider diversity and easier time getting settled in.) It won't mean that the 'hardmode' difficult events will be easier, mind you, but that the overall feel will seem more accessible past the point of heavenward.

We can potentially use the level 30 start on new Jobs, the 'below ilvl130' start on level 51+ gear, the delayed release of Alexander as well as the first release of storymode Alexander BEFORE the hard difficulty, as all indications of continuing the trend of 'ease of admission'.

That's what makes SoF and storyline gating such a staggering point - it's in stark contrast to all listed points moving forward.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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It's not just mechanics/cannon damage though. You still need quite a bit of output from player damage throughout the fight. Which was why I was a bit annoyed by the NPC telling me that our attacks "would avail little against this foe"...when in actuality, non-cannon/DK damage would make up about 50% or more of the boss' hp.

I do agree with you that having 1 or 2 deadweights would have a signifcant impact on the overall progress, whether it be them legitimately bad or straight up trolling.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

Personally I'm okay with them nerfing content if it is needed to progress the main story, such as with Steps of Faith. Non required content such as the Coils, EX Primals and CT should not be nerfed ever in my mind.

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I just hope they don't make the other 6 elder dragons easy. Even if that means taking them out of the story. Elder dragon and easy don't belong in the same sentence.

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Originally Posted by Whocareswhatmynameis

I just hope they don't make the other 6 elder dragons easy. Even if that means taking them out of the story. Elder dragon and easy don't belong in the same sentence.

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I don't think Vishap is an elder dragon. Do you know of any sources that say he was?

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

I don't think Vishap is an elder dragon. Do you know of any sources that say he was?

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He isn't, he's explained as "Nidhogg's champion". Nidhogg likely being one of Middie's sons since Middie says one of his sons is calling for vengeance.(and said call is what compells the dragon host to attack)

Hidden the text just in case.

If they make it so the relic weapon work I did for the past year is made to be worthless - I'm going back to FFXI, at least there your grind matters and won't be taken away. I love this game, I really do - but you can't take away people's accomplishments, not the really hard ones. I understand nerfing the Steps fight, so people can get past it and all, but damn yea I agree - easy on the nerfing of the hard stuff.

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Originally Posted by Honey_Tailtwitcher

If they make it so the relic weapon work I did for the past year is made to be worthless - I'm going back to FFXI, at least there your grind matters and won't be taken away. I love this game, I really do - but you can't take away people's accomplishments, not the really hard ones. I understand nerfing the Steps fight, so people can get past it and all, but damn yea I agree - easy on the nerfing of the hard stuff.

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Your weapon will be outdated, but having it completed will assist you in the progress of your new 'relic' weapon moving forward. So, they met you halfway.

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Originally Posted by Honey_Tailtwitcher

If they make it so the relic weapon work I did for the past year is made to be worthless - I'm going back to FFXI, at least there your grind matters and won't be taken away. I love this game, I really do - but you can't take away people's accomplishments, not the really hard ones. I understand nerfing the Steps fight, so people can get past it and all, but damn yea I agree - easy on the nerfing of the hard stuff.

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From an interview with Yoshida at the Eorzea Cafe a few days ago,

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Zodiac Weapon will not continue. Instead there will be a brand new weapon quest line but those using ZW's will have a slightly easier time. He didn't want to make it completely useless cause he finished a ZW weapon himself!

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So we'll get something for finishing zodiacs. Just who knows if it's worthwhile still.

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Originally Posted by Arixtotle

I also am of the belief that such a mechanic driven fight has no place in the main story line. Such fights should be optional content.

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It HAD to be an MSQ!
No other action but helping kill the Dravanian Invasion Horde at the bridge was going to make the Holy See allow us to enter their realm.
It is the outcome of that battle which changes their minds.

Content that you must do almost every day, duty roulette or not, must be adjusted when it is too hard to clear. Every day content should be breeze to complete, maybe pose a mild challenge at launch but gets easier once more people get to do it (duty roulette expert is a good example). Any other "challenging" content should be grouped accordingly, aka extreme fights + coil fight + savage mode. These should be OPTIONAL content, and in no way shape or form be a part of daily content that most have to do every single day.

It was getting nerfed to face roll easy because they want people to easily play the expansion they bought makes prefect sense.

Casual game is casual.

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Originally Posted by T2teddy

It HAD to be an MSQ!
No other action but helping kill the Dravanian Invasion Horde at the bridge was going to make the Holy See allow us to enter their realm.
It is the outcome of that battle which changes their minds.

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That didn't have to be MSQ. That could have been the start of Heavensward through a different writing method, and MSQ could have concluded without any ties to Corethas whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Honey_Tailtwitcher

If they make it so the relic weapon work I did for the past year is made to be worthless - I'm going back to FFXI, at least there your grind matters and won't be taken away. I love this game, I really do - but you can't take away people's accomplishments, not the really hard ones. I understand nerfing the Steps fight, so people can get past it and all, but damn yea I agree - easy on the nerfing of the hard stuff.

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When SOA was released in XI relic weapons that people worked "far" harder for in that game were largely made paper weights for mog house desks, I don't see how 14 would chase many people back to xi by doing this.

Especially when xi has one final content update scheduled officially later this year, and 14 has no end in sight.

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Originally Posted by Honey_Tailtwitcher

If they make it so the relic weapon work I did for the past year is made to be worthless - I'm going back to FFXI..

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You must not have been a very longtime XI player. When i finally left a bit after SoA release, you could bang out out anything but a Mythic in under a month with no real hardship if you ground it out consistently.

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Originally Posted by Lamentations

When SOA was released in XI relic weapons that people worked "far" harder for in that game were largely made paper weights for mog house desks, I don't see how 14 would chase many people back to xi by doing this.

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Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

They should just put in an iWin button. You get into the duty, you open up duty finder window and click "iWin", party vote happens, if 50% of party agrees, fight is automatically won and you can all leave.

No point nerfing content that's already easy so if you're going to do that, may as well just go all the way and let people win automatically. Look at the Idle genre in gaming, it's hugely popular being a genre that gamers don't play they just wait and get stuff and the gamers who get off to games they don't have to play are infesting our MMOs and forcing companies to dumb everything down or risk losing profit.

Dark days for gamers who actually want to work at and achieve things in a video game.

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Unfortunately, not all people want to work at and achieve things in a video game. I myself is a casual gamer, only play about 6 hours a week, but I also want to progress the story, because I love Final Fantasy.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

...Dark days for gamers who actually want to work at and achieve things in a video game.

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Speaking as one who cleared SoF week one, but is totally fine with the adjustment: How many times pre-adjustment were you actually going back and doing the Promyvions SoF?

I hate the argument "nerf because story." I've never played a game where I expected story to be given to me separately from the game. What's wrong with story being a reward for clearing content?

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

Dark days for gamers who actually want to work at and achieve things in a video game.

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This was simply a story trial that a fair amount of casual players got stuck on. If you want a challenge then do some of the end game raiding or something, but don't get all upset over SE making casual content clearable by even the most casual players out there.

I love all these deleted posts referencing "asshurts" lmao.

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Originally Posted by Rendecrow

This was simply a story trial that a fair amount of casual players got stuck on. If you want a challenge then do some of the end game raiding or something, but don't get all upset over SE making casual content clearable by even the most casual players out there.

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Yeah man, with this story quest nerfed, all of the ~*~hard content~*~ must be gone *ignores current tier raiding and all of savage coil*

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Originally Posted by AriaEnia

Unfortunately, not all people want to work at and achieve things in a video game. I myself is a casual gamer, only play about 6 hours a week, but I also want to progress the story, because I love Final Fantasy.

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I am a casual, hardcore gamer. I play this game casually, as in at my own pace. That does not mean I enjoy easy content. This is an mmo , not a single-player game. Single player games have the options for easy - normal -hard because they are designed for everyone's play style. An mmo, isusually built to have content for various types of players, but not all content is usually done by all those players. Some will ignore Triad in this game, some ignore coils, some ignore ex primals, some will ignore chocobo raising/racing, etc etc. SE has attempted to step up the "normal mode" difficulty and force people to actually work together with Chrysalis and SoF, unfortunately, keeper being 4-man does not prepare people for this, and chrysalis you are able to carry someone. That doesn't help players gain the skill they need to work together for success. Thus, steps becomes a roadblock for those playing as though they are playing a single player game.

I thoroughly enjoyed SoF, but I understand why it needed to be made easier. This game has never had a storyline quest that was difficult since beta (they nerfed solo quests in beta and made me cry). Every story quest should have been challenging in some way. Otherwise all these players that do not do coils or ex-primals simply cannot work well enough with others for a battle that relies on everyone. The new "HM" primals in the story are not able to prepare people for this as they are all designed to be easier then Titan HM and you can be carried through all of them.

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Originally Posted by Rath

Every story quest should have been challenging in some way.

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I agree with this. If SE had just slowly introduced mechanic-driven fights as the story progressed, the divide between players wouldn't be nearly as bad. It wouldn't even feel like "I'm being forced to do hardcore content!" because it would just feel like typical leveling progression. It never had to reach the level of Coil or other end-game raids, but it should progress some.

The pre-50 dungeons that are mechanic driven are all optional. And I remember while reading a guide waiting for my Temple of Qarn cue I was legitimately nervous because of the big jump that even that dungeon had compared to others. But sure enough told party I was new, they were nice enough, and we trucked through it no problem. And it felt nice that I could actually do it. Even as a casual player with no interest in raiding, I shouldn't feel that relieved to think I can do Qarn. And now the jitters are back while waiting for a time I can cue for Darkhold, but not nearly as badly as before because I got to clear more mechanic driven content already.

That being said, from seeing all the threads that talk about people abandoning SoF, I don't see how people can think anyone can have the chance to be better players (those who blatantly ignore advice and stay bad on purpose aside) if no one's willing to stick around and teach. "Watch a video." Okay, yeah, I am a player that does that. But it is not the same. Knowledge of a fight can turn the tide of battle, but it does not guarantee victory. You have to actually have experience to do the fight well, and the only way to get that is if people are willing to work with you when you initially don't have said experience. And if people don't want to do it via roulette, do you really think people will willingly do it on PF?

That's not saying that people who already cleared it are evil for not going back and doing SoF again. They're paying for their time too and might not legitimately enjoy the trial. But because SoF is the gateway to the expansion something must give. Either people have to be willing to do the trial with lower leveled characters, or the difficulty has to decrease. Bad players are always going to be bad because they won't listen to advice. Don't punish everyone else that wants to get to expansion content just because they didn't get there when all the "good players" were doing it.

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Originally Posted by Purrfectstorm

I hate the argument "nerf because story." I've never played a game where I expected story to be given to me separately from the game. What's wrong with story being a reward for clearing content?

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Because MONEY! How can SE maximize sales of Heavensward if people can't even get past story content that allows them to play Heavensward? Sales would plunge.

I hate having things handed to me, especially after a crapton of other people did it without the training wheels (looking at Coil echo). To me it's like SE is saying "they could do it, but you're not good enough so we'll dumb it down a bit for you". Infuriating.

If you're going to nerf something anyway, either do it at the beginning or not at all.

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Originally Posted by Elusana_Celah

...Feel free to correct me if you think my ideas are wrong but that is the impression that I got.

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I'm not gonna try and correct you on your opinion, it is exactly that-your opinion. What i will say is what i have said elsewhere; if you cleared SoF and got a bit of challenge from it, is the change taking anything away from you? I mean, is someone else having an easier time at old you content you have cleared already and have zero need to ever touch again really harming you or anyone else that cleared it before the change?

And no, the whole 'they are not gonna learn X' argument is not a valid answer imo. Because, seriously, what is a player that has already done 1-50 and all of the rest of the Main Quest besides, really gonna learn from this fight that they haven't already had more than enough opportunities to have gleaned elsewhere in the game?

Bad players will still be bad and a good players will still be good. And honestly until SE starts offering a bonus service where customers can get extra content for extra cash, we all pay the same(approximately) fee every month.

Now if ppl people want to rail against content they spent tons of time learning/clearing(raids, future actual end-game activities, etc) being nerfed, hey i'm cool with that. Won't change anything if SE decides it needs to be adjusted, but i'll at least be on board with that anger/outrage.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

Because MONEY! How can SE maximize sales of Heavensward if people can't even get past story content that allows them to play Heavensward? Sales would plunge.

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Yeah but promoting bad players doesn't retain subs. Eventually the loyal and good players will take off. And we all know how bad players are..they go after the next new shiny mmo!

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Originally Posted by Iromi

Yeah but promoting bad players doesn't retain subs. Eventually the loyal and good players will take off. And we all know how bad players are..they go after the next new shiny mmo!

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I don't know. WoW seems to be doing quite well despite its extreme catering to casuals. That MMOs been around since 2004 and no new shiny MMO has seemed to knock it off that track.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I don't know. WoW seems to be doing quite well despite its extreme catering to casuals. That MMOs been around since 2004 and no new shiny MMO has seemed to knock it off that track.

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WoW is killing itself no need to worry about the next greatest thing. Their sub numbers have dropped 3 mil since WoD launched and the end of March.

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

WoW is killing itself no need to worry about the next greatest thing. Their sub numbers have dropped 3 mil since WoD launched and the end of March.

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Why is it killing itself? Never played it and I'm curious.

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

I don't know. WoW seems to be doing quite well despite its extreme catering to casuals. That MMOs been around since 2004 and no new shiny MMO has seemed to knock it off that track.

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lolwowisdoingwell.png

Huh, subscription rates stopped rising at the end of TBC/beginning of wrath.... when they started the hyper themepark design. Then it fell every expansion after. Interestingly the design that got them to their millions numbers was when WoW had the more classic MMO approach. Oh well.

I guess loosing 3 million subscribers in 3 months is "doing well".

I dunno why people put WoW on some pedestal. At least, post-TBC/Wrath.

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Originally Posted by Tuathaa

What people fail to realize is that SE has logs from JP NA and EU for every trial, duty, dungeon and raid and nerf content according to what the numbers say.
If they overture an instance and the numbers say it's over tuned it will be nerfed regardless of how long it's been out.

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Thank you, this is all that needs to be said, close thread.

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Originally Posted by Magis

lolwowisdoingwell.png

Huh, subscription rates stopped rising at the end of TBC/beginning of wrath.... when they started the hyper themepark design. Then it fell every expansion after. Interestingly the design that got them to their millions numbers was when WoW had the more classic MMO approach. Oh well.

I guess loosing 3 million subscribers in 3 months is "doing well".

I dunno why people put WoW on some pedestal. At least, post-TBC/Wrath.

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7.5 million subscribers (according to the chart you linked) is still a lot. I and many others would consider that "doing well".

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Originally Posted by kpxmanifesto

7.5 million subscribers (according to the chart you linked) is still a lot. I and many others would consider that "doing well".

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An almost halving of your subscription rate is pretty abysmal considering they have investors to pay as well as everything needed to run such a monolith. And your post was "doing quite well despite its extreme catering to casuals" when no, in fact they have not done well, nor have they done the same. They have done worse. Lucky for Blizzard they had made the right steps in the beginning and could take the hit, not so much other smaller MMOs.