Why bring MNK to anything anymore?

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

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Tell me the mandatory GL losses that aren't manageable by keeping PB ready for it. PB gives you 3 GCDs to get back up each GCD faster than the last, DRG needs 4 normal time GCDs to get back into the rotation. (I'll agree you should wait B4B out so you don't waste it, thus was a moot point on my end)

Getting rid of rng losses, T10 is 100% uptime, T11 is 100% uptime, you might lose it once on the transition to bennu phase on t12 and you'd lose it on the jumps in the last phase, but again once you're built up, the damage from a monk is steady plus you'll have at least one PB for those losses. T13 is lost at the start of the add phase and your group should be leaving a gust up for you to maintain stacks going into the last phase.

T12 is the only fight where monks can take a significant hit however, since you also mentioned the current ilvl of players, you shouldn't see that second jump. Falling back to my previous post these fights are long enough that the sustained monk damage shines. And this point about DK and mantra being useless is really moot, you people are making it sound like your group wants to kick you now that everyone's geared (spoiler alert: megaflares still dickpunch you real hard with only storms path up).

EDIT:
since it's already been said I'll just add the quote here:

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Originally Posted by Noira

So it's simply some fights that aren't catered to monk is all ? Like how some fights favor Blm over Smn or Smn over Blm.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

EDIT: TL;DR melees are balanced in the current meta and some monks just can't handle.

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Seems like you just don't understand what I said.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

If a drg loses B4B uptime the hit to their dps is as bad as a monk losing GL.

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This definitely made me laugh. With GL3 I was talking about game "fault", not human. Even tho, if this were true, why would you pop B4B with Megaflare/Earthshaker coming? Honestly it seems like you don't know how to play your own job, I don't think you could talk about how MNK works.

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Originally Posted by Umbrax

Seems like you just don't understand what I said.

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You're mad that there's competition now for top dps, I understand perfectly well. If you dislike that every fight isn't catered to GL why play monk? I could see your argument if monk was bottom of the parses every single time, but that's far from the case.

And I did amend in a followup comment that it was silly of me to bring up B4B.

Yes 100% uptime on T10, but still with that a ninja/dragoon will do better at the same level.
T11 : last phase screws your positionals, you can't avoid that. Either side or behind (exept a few moments when you don't have to pack)
T12 : Well last dodge phase can be an issue, but it's okay in general
T13 : dives screws 3 GL3, one can be avoided with a gust yes, the other with PB but you will always lose one with no PB up.

These are just examples ^^ the main issue is that not only Monk can't reach the same dps as Nin/Drg on the ideal conditions, but we get a significant loss due to mecanics as well, enlarging the gap. We're not talking about a huge dps difference, but comparable to 5ilvs on a weapon.

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Originally Posted by siverstorm

Tell me the mandatory GL losses that aren't manageable by keeping PB ready for it.

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There is just one case in FCoB that you would be never be able to keep GL3. And that's turn 13, after first set of divebombs we lose GL3 obviously. After second set of divebombs we lose GL3 obviously and here is where I use PB and not lose charges until Bahamut is dead, if played perfectly.

EDIT: you can save GL3 by pushing dps until first divebomb set with 3rd dragon alive and dpsing the dragon while dodging divebombs. Even tho, this is not something every party can execute. So with this MKNs would not lose GL3 in turn 13 or FCoB, but ofc, your party and you have to play perfectly and make weird things only because of the MNK. Man, I love MNK just because of this.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

These are just examples ^^ the main issue is that not only Monk can't reach the same dps as Nin/Drg on the ideal conditions, but we get a significant loss due to mecanics as well, enlarging the gap. We're not talking about a huge dps difference, but comparable to 5ilvs on a weapon.

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When the battle team creates content, they do not tailor it in a way to disenfranchise monks. We've had three different endgame raids so far, but one thing is consistent about the final encounter for each: putting every job's strength on display through a series of independent trials.

If you look at an entire 11-14 minute encounter and say "MNK loses GL3 here; therefore, they are inadequate" then you could similarly dismiss BLM when there's nothing to AoE, or dismiss DRG because parts of the encounter go on for too long without transitional add segments to burst.

Could you imagine if t5/9/13 were each made of a single, uninterrupted encounter a la t8? We would have people making a thread like this for the opposite reason.

And yet there are players who exceed expectations of their jobs: BLMs who who rival MNK in t8, MNKs who top the charts in t9, DRG who don't KO even once. Is it magic? A bad parser? Does everyone else just suck?

@Umbrax : yeah well I don't want to bother my team leaving a dragon alive just for me :3 gusts are a different story though ^^

@Almalexia : This is not my point at all. In addition to this, your last statement is irrelevant, since it is biased by taking skill into consideration.

EDIT : to clarify a bit. I'm not saying fight mecanics are bad, I'm talking about raw numbers. To sum up (and also reapeat myself) : The issue is : Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions+ is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs. The combination of these two is the issue.

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Originally Posted by Umbrax

Even tho, if this were true, why would you pop B4B with Megaflare/Earthshaker coming? Honestly it seems like you don't know how to play your own job, I don't think you could talk about how MNK works.

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Because some melee have a pld to cover their ass or just don't suck and Weave the earthshakers to pull more dps. There's always a strat to keep dps go, and so there is for GL3 when you think there's not. Yes there's moment where you'll lose your GL, the same there's moment drg and nin can and will lose buffs too. Just need to deal with this the best you can, you seem to underestimate human being's capacity to adapt to situation. That being said, MNK is fine as it is right now, with great utility and dps, and let's say it, double mnk is just violent.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

@Almalexia : This is not my point at all. In addition to this, your last statement is irrelevant, since it is biased by taking skill into consideration.

EDIT : to clarify a bit. I'm not saying fight mecanics are bad, I'm talking about raw numbers. To sum up (and also reapeat myself) : The issue is : Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions+ is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs. The combination of these two is the issue.

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Forgive me for being dumb. I'll break it down into smaller chunks so I can digest it easier:

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Monk can't achieve the same dps as Nin/Drg on ideal conditions

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Give me max SS gear, Selene, a pet MNK for DK, a NIN or BRD for TP and a big, meaty mob who has no business turning. Now, show me another DPS who can beat me under their "ideal conditions." This is a bogus claim, anyway; even the monk-friendliest encounter might bind you in a shitty place and you'll lose a positional or two. There are no ideal conditions outside of Mist.
I'm not being consistent with my own points. A BLM would crush a MNK when there are enough targets to AoE, and in 30s a DRG will crush a MNK in burst DPS. There is no good sense in arguing ideal conditions because different DPS have different ideals. The endgame encounters are built with this in mind.

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is more affected by mecanics than these two jobs.

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It's important for us to consider two kinds of mechanics that interfere with GL:

Rapid phase transitions like t5 snakes, t9 golems and t13 dragons do not exist to sabotage monks but to let burst jobs burst and AoE jobs AoE. If every boss fight were a contiguous 11m encounter, MNK would handily beat everybody. The last raid of 2.0 consists of two 550k HP chunks separated by a 3-minute add intermission; if this doesn't scream balanced party of burst and sustained DPS then I don't know what else to tell you.

Boss gimmicks (conflags, tethers, flares, wiggly wooglies) when properly fulfilled by the MNK/PT, very rarely sap GL. In fact, losing GL frequently on these mechanics is a good litmus test for poor execution. Can the circles/adds come closer? Do you need to disengage so soon, or run that far away? Are other DPS pulling their weight? etc. etc. This is where player skill has a mitigating effect. To say this is "biased" is to contradict your own claim about ideal situations--ideally, the MNK would know the encounter inside and out.

I hope I understood your point well enough to properly illustrate why it is bad.

That's a good answer. I agree with you, and you're right in what you say/write. But my point is slightly different. (I'm sorry if I can't explain myself properly, english is not my native language ^^' )

first of all I don't take blm or other DPS jobs into consideration, i'm talking about melees, in a Raid scenario
To be more precise, I considerideal conditions to be, let's say, a situation when Dragoon, Ninja and Monk can dps at their maximum, like a dummy (so single target without things to do other than rotation)
I am also looking at dps numbers on a whole fight.


Now I'll detail my point by comparing with different scenarios Monk, Nin and dragoon :

-We agree that Monk specialty is Single target and is weaker when it comes to aoes (expept with PB). Dragoon is a bit better and I'd say roughly equal as monk.
The numbers are not that different, so it's not a big deal over the whole fight. Monk, Dragoon and ninja are single target specialists.

-Regarding single target DPS, where no mecanics are involved (ie what I call ideal conditions for Monk, Ninja, Dragoon) : Ninja will suprass monks (I assure you, it will) Ninja dps is, as we speak , the best on a single target. regarding Dragoon, it's on par with monk

-Regarding single target DPS with mecanics based on doging and positioning : Typically the megaflares or tethers in T11. Monk can't do it's positionals, Ninja can dps normally (minus one skill off gcd), Dragoon can dps normally (minus 2 skills I think).

-Phases transistions : Ninja ready to full dps after 2 skills without slashing damages (minor dps loss), Dragoon need to put disembowel, Monk needs to build up stacks or use PB is available Still has to put DK and TS anyway so at least 5GCDs with PB, 9 without.

-Everything else which is mecanics based, or RNG : same for everyone if well played.

I understand what you call rapid phase transitions. I don't consider them to be a problem for monks at all since their short and not ideal dps situations for everyone. But I assure you that a monk would not beat everyone handily on a 11m dummy fight. Ninja would, then Dragoon or Monk depending on crits and so.

This is what I'm trying to show ^^ nad I hope you can see what I mean :3

Just because DK and Mantra are no longer mandatory doesn't mean they're bad. They still significantly reduce healer strain and make transitions cleaner.

Cause MNK is #1 class.

Why should MNK be #1? Why does any particular class HAVE TO BE #1 at all times? Everyone cites an interview from several patches ago, but why should that remain true? Because MNK is a more difficult class that ANYONE could have had OVER A YEAR to master, assuming they've played since launch? Class strength will rise and fall in relation to each other in any MMO. If you don't like the way your class plays now, wait a patch or two. I assure you SE won't stop tweaking things. (Blizzard sure as hell didn't.)

Please just stop. Monk is not dead.
http://i.gyazo.com/240c87dff54ee99f30b32a0d7d1aa02b.png

<Dragon Kick>, lose the goon. brd/goon synergy is a very weak argument since having a good mnk lets healers dps more. So yeah, you kind of forgot about MNK/HLR synergy. /thread

At nine T13 clears on my main Lord Pounce I can honestly say that MNK is not dead at all. We are still #1 ST DPS not by as much as we used to be though. Even with an i130 (ironworks) I still out dps our nin (dreadwyrm, he is pretty good at nin I have parsed against others as well) by about 10-20 dps. I also dont think the future looks to bad because out of all the melee dps MNK scales the best with gear. A 1 weapon damage upgrade for a MNK is about 20-30dps while for a nin it is only 10-20. This means that as gear increases the gap increases in favor of MNK.

dont be afraid to switch your armor for the job at hand. For T13 I use DET gear because PB is always up for when I need it, but for something like T9 savage I use SS because we can now get enough to keep greased through the second dive jump.

As for T10, I rarely miss positionals there. you can still get back attacks off during tail swipe (even on the adds) and you can still get positionals off during heat lightning be standing literally in the middle of the bosses targeting circle as well as opening the middle for the tether early.

In T11, on the chance that you get forked you can be at max melee range and not hit anyone with it. also on spread outs where you have to leave the boss remember to use shoulder tackle (to few MNKs dont abuse this skill when it will save your stacks and stacks=everything).

T12, like I said earlier, if you do it right PB is up everytime you need it (at least with our strat).

T13, Shoulder tackle and stance dancing are your friends. also learn the cover trick for earthshaker and if you get it twice learn to weave them.


PS: making these threads is pointless its just annoying and discourages new players from playing certain classes

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Originally Posted by pouncing

At nine T13 clears on my main Lord Pounce I can honestly say that MNK is not dead at all. We are still #1 ST DPS not by as much as we used to be though. Even with an i130 (ironworks) I still out dps our nin (dreadwyrm, he is pretty good at nin I have parsed against others as well) by about 10-20 dps.

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Most likely you outdpsed him because you are using ironworks chest which is BiS for monk while your ninja is not BiS. If he were to optimize it further, that 10-20 dps difference will vanish like snow before the sun.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

Most likely you outdpsed him because you are using ironworks chest which is BiS for monk while your ninja is not BiS. If he were to optimize it further, that 10-20 dps difference will vanish like snow before the sun.

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Yea that anecdotal 10-20dps just mean the nin gotta get better, get better geared, or get WTFast

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Originally Posted by Viviza

Monks bring competitive damage and the best defensive abilities of any dps. The job's playstyle is unique with fast, positional movements, and sometimes risky efforts to keep stacks going.

The job is both effective and appealing. It doesn't need attention.

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Technically... it DOES need attention... if you want the TOP deeps that is.

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Originally Posted by Aurelinaus

<Dragon Kick>, lose the goon. brd/goon synergy is a very weak argument since having a good mnk lets healers dps more. So yeah, you kind of forgot about MNK/HLR synergy. /thread

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DK doesn't really let your healers DPS more T10-12, it doesn't change up AoE healing much if at all (possibly an extra Medica or losing some Embraces that could have gone to the MT), and most damage on MT in T10-12 is physical with the rare Crackle Hiss in T10 and the adds in T11 being the most noted exceptions. T13 is a different story, there is serious damage on the MT and raid that is magical in nature.

Maybe with exceptional, planned 20% Mantra usage you could get some serious extra healer DPS in, I could see that making Regen + Embrace so strong healers could truly just neglect during high damage points.

I think DRG + NIN or NIN + NIN is optimal in current gear T10-12, once the healers get used to very slightly higher damage on things taken for granted like the Flames of Unforgiveness. T13, I'd bring a MNK regardless, would rather drop a caster than MNK if you wanna get optimal.

I don't know about DRG as I have not really test them myself after their buff. I do know they can do really good damage now but I still doubt they'll beat MNK and NIN in personal DPS. NIN; however, do beat MNK, slightly so on dummy, quite a bit so in many actual fights, and are more consistent in their damage. With enough Requiem and decent procs, BLM beat MNK and even NIN in certain circumstances.

Those who think MNK is still the best ST DPS is either lying, has never meet a good NIN, or are deluding themselves. Trust me, no matter how high you think your ST DPS is, there is a NIN who can do more. It wouldn't be so bad, as MNK still do damn good DPS, if not for the fact that they have to deal with complications that NIN and DRG don't have to. DK was was helpful for T13 when you're still at low gear but it was never necessary. So the TC's point does stand, at high-max gear and for practical purposes, why bring a MNK when you can bring a NIN?

I suppose MNK had their day in the sun with the last Coil patch and things will probably change with later patches. Though BLM was ALWAYS ridiculously strong, most people just didn't know how to play the damn job.

Oh, and something I've noticed. MNK was never a super popular job but since NIN came along, they've pretty much dissipeared. I almost never encounter on in dungeons and rarely see one in CT-WoD runs.

This, is the truth about Monk nowadays, I couldn't agree more.

Although NIN is powerfull, most monks that do these dps videos or try to compare with NIN have shit gear and have no understanding of how to optimize output. Whereas most NIN that do these omgOPwtfdps videos are usually BiS or close to it. So you cant really compare.

They also do not take into account NIN trick attack which prolly gives MNK a ~10-12 dps boost over the long run. Whereas all NIN parses already have trick attack damage taken into account.

But yea MNKs need a severe boost. Its just a hell lotta work for such a small dps difference.

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

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On the Monk thread there are a few parses with Monks reaching 640 DPS, with a lot of crits. I managed to do it myself, and I am really close to bis (with party buff, food and strength pot). With a lot of crits I was above 660 DPS for a minute, then it went down to 330-340 ish. This was due to a full crit opener (luck !) and on average, it's closer to 630.

Of course we benefit from trick attack, but I don't consider this as relevant, since double nin would mean double trick attack and thus increasing their DPS even more.

And yeah as you said, we have to work a lot more to reach that small DPS difference ^^^Can't wait for 3.0 to see if we get new skills to fill the gap :)

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

Ninja better than monk stuff.

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Must be an NA thing because on EU servers there's still plenty of monk rocking the DPS meters, might be because a ping of 130~180 (130 being with WTFast) is not too mudra friendly and gives the monks an edge in the long run, we'll see once we get EU servers and can actually start messurring our DPS with NA players.
Ninjutsus are just that slow for us.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Must be an NA thing because on EU servers there's still plenty of monk rocking the DPS meters, might be because a ping of 130~180 (130 being with WTFast) is not too mudra friendly and gives the monks an edge in the long run, we'll see once we get EU servers and can actually start messurring our DPS with NA players.
Ninjutsus are just that slow for us.

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Really depends on people, I know EU players with around 100 ping. I live in France and I have 120 ping with WTFast. It allows me to pop mudras really quickly, maybe not as fast as Japanese players but still fast enough. And you know, some NA players are on EU servers.

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Originally Posted by Deithwen

Really depends on people, I know EU players with around 100 ping. I live in France and I have 120 ping with WTFast. It allows me to pop mudras really quickly, maybe not as fast as Japanese players but still fast enough. And you know, some NA players are on EU servers.

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How quick is quick for you? I pop them pretty quickly now too with 125~130 using WTFast (WHEN I compare them how it was without it 160+) but this is nothing compared to what people do with <50 ping and this is a HUGE deal more for Ninjas than any other class because of mudras.
I'm just saying that Ninjas owning monks left and right is not the case everywhere, but I can only imagine that it porbably would be when we're talking about low pings.

It's situational. On world map it takes a longer time, but during raids or Wod I almost have time to fit a Raiton in my GCD (considering I have a below 2s GCD). Strangely it's a bit random, so somtimes I'll have time to fit a Suiton/huton, then all of a sudden I get I minor lag spike preventing me to do so and I might lose 1s.
It's really fluctuating, but i often have luck with that.

To give you something to compare, mines take almost the same amount of time as those in this video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdwKtanWVOU
Maybe a 0.2s difference at max.
(I'm not the player ^^)

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Originally Posted by Truedragon

Although NIN is powerfull, most monks that do these dps videos or try to compare with NIN have shit gear and have no understanding of how to optimize output. Whereas most NIN that do these omgOPwtfdps videos are usually BiS or close to it. So you cant really compare.

They also do not take into account NIN trick attack which prolly gives MNK a ~10-12 dps boost over the long run. Whereas all NIN parses already have trick attack damage taken into account.

But yea MNKs need a severe boost. Its just a hell lotta work for such a small dps difference.

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Most MNK videos I see, they are using mercy stroke.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Most MNK videos I see, they are using mercy stroke.

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I mean 1 mercy in a 4 minute parse is like, you can do it once in t10 in less than 4 minutes.. so...

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Originally Posted by Odowla

I mean 1 mercy in a 4 minute parse is like, you can do it once in t10 in less than 4 minutes.. so...

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Spike damage on openers skews parses, especially if it crit. Most NIN videos I have seen exclude assassinate entirely. Also, its more like 2~3 mercy strokes. You are giving an example of one fight where that is applicable. T11, no mercy stroke til add phase, T12 no mercy stroke until add phase (unless you are on bennu's but not sure why you would put melee on bennu if you have 2 ranged, given your setup is like this), T13 no mercy stroke until p2.


In the video below the MNK crits a mercy stroke and you can see the spike DPS he got from it. It occurs between 0:20 and 0:23.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVnFWIo1B6E


It's also not really about being able to use it within the first 4 minutes, It's more a matter of using it within the first 30 seconds. Openers play a HUGE part on final DPS in dummy parses.

Now put a Ninja to the monk, giving him Trick Attack every minute and all the mercy strokes don't matter anymore.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

Now put a Ninja to the monk, giving him Trick Attack every minute and all the mercy strokes don't matter anymore.

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That argument is not applicable. The NIN would have to use Assassinate to even it out.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

That argument is not applicable. The NIN would have to use Assassinate to even it out.

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It's applicable when none of both use it, Nin parse with Trick Attack, Monks without it. Have a Ninja with you to apply Trick attack and you're on with a real accurate parse.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

It's applicable when none of both use it, Nin parse with Trick Attack, Monks without it. Have a Ninja with you to apply Trick attack and you're on with a real accurate parse.

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No because you are not guaranteed to have a NIN in all of your parties, while the NIN is guaranteed to have trick attack in all of its parties. That's like saying parses aren't accurate because there is no selene there for buffs.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

No because you are not guaranteed to have a NIN in all of your parties, while the NIN is guaranteed to have trick attack in all of its parties. That's like saying parses aren't accurate because there is no selene there for buffs.

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The fact remains that Nin work with a debuff that works for all classes and have access to it while parsing, so when a Nin does about the same damage as a Monk he will of course beat them because Monks do not have access to it.
On a parser it's easy to beat a Monk but if said Monk hits on the same dummy it's a whole other story.
If anything Ninjas beat monks in offensive utility.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

The fact remains that Nin work with a debuff that works for all classes and have access to it while parsing, so when a Nin does about the same damage as a Monk he will of course beat them because Monks do not have access to it.
On a parser it's easy to beat a Monk but if said Monk hits on the same dummy it's a whole other story, yet they are in denyal because they don't want any other classclose to them.
If anything Ninjas beat monks in offensive utility.

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The fact remains that you will not always have a NIN in your party so those parses will not always reflect the trick attack damage. Which is why I gave the Selene example. While Selene may boost my damage, I am not guaranteed to see her out giving me fey light every fight, therefore she is excluded from all of my parses. Things like food and pots are acceptable because they are something that I will always have available for myself. NIN has a similar situation with WAR putting up their Storms Eye for the NIN, but in a parse I would never allow that because I am not always guaranteed to have a WAR in my party and even then I might not get SE from the WAR when he is due to having to deal with mechanics ETC.

im not even sure why monk and ninja still need to be compared. In the hands of a top player I've seen no significant difference between the 2 with or without trick attack. The main point is ever application of huton lowers ninja dps and any breaks in combat can lower monk +slow start. Top player know how to manage and mitigate or negate dps drops. In a 3 minute parse ninja should out dps monk. Get a paeon or goad and make it 10minutes (random number) and monk should come out on top. I haven't seen a fight where a 3 minute or 10 minute dummy parse means anything other than who has the bigger epeen. All this tread is doing is make players think monk isnt viable (the same thing that happened when everyone said positionals were hard).
The lesson to learn here is play what you like and get good at it. It's still not perfect but they did a good job at balancing the classes (I said not perfect) ;P

Just coming to say I don't like this thread's title. This game has nearly perfect job balancing. Why do we need to make other ppl think MNK is worse than NIN/DRG?
Just FYI, there are many raid groups out there crying about how hard T13 is without Dragon Kick while no ppl say "we hit enrage because we don't have TA"

I hope there will be no similar thread like this in 3.0 cos more jobs are coming. :cool:

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Originally Posted by alsims2007

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With a Ninja like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfwucJOTTsA I'm skeptical that there will be no difference.