Healers doing damage

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

Fluid Aura

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How often do you use FA? Do you use it on trash that gets knocked back? That's not generally appreciated since if moves mobs out of AoE and away from the tank. I, personally, rarely use FA as it can cause issues. I use it as quick damage against things immune to knockback (slimes in ST for example).

Sorry if you already knew this and all. :P Just saw it in your rotation, that's why I am wondering,

be careful with fluid aura, if you make tank and melee DD's run, the slight damage up it gives to you, isnt worth it. i suggest only to use it if you know the mob cant be knocked away or its stands on a wall where you push it to. otherwise you should restrict using FA to defensive purposes only - or your group will start hating you.

lets see your fc get past AK HM demonwall and ferdiad without the healer dealing any damage

Pro-Tip: If you coordinate with your tank in dungeons, you can ask your tank to position mobs where one flank is to a wall so that your Fluid Aura can:
a) Interrupt a non-stunnable or silenceable skill
b) Do damage without having to knock things back beyond 0.5 yalms

You can also use Fluid Aura as a finisher followed by an Aero as it will land before the bind, making the DoT finish the last 100 health is has left (or just kill it with Fluid Aura). There are also some areas in which you can use Fluid Aura defensively (melee mobs) when you need to shave off another source of damage your tank is taking--this is very situational, and is generally used in very large pulls, especially in low level dungeons I.E. Stone Vigil. But I digress. Persuade them through premise into fact. If they choose to ignore, there isn't much you can do as it's falling onto deaf ears.

Ok, first of all: My rotation was regarding bosses. Ex Primals, basically. Regular monsters obviously call for a slightly different rotation:

(holyholyholyholyholyholyholydead?no?holyholyholy)

And second of all: While leveling my WHM I used fluid aura and sleep a LOT. It makes both my life and the tank's life easier since focusing on one monster only, and locking down 2 others, for example, is much more effective than trying to do AoE damage to 3 mobs at once at low levels, so it just doesn't make sense that there's 2 mobs attacking the tank not taking damage, what do I do? I FA one of them, sleep the other, mark them with ignore marks and proceed to attack the 1st monster while the tank literally takes 1/3 of the damage he would take if I didn't do that.

Also, Fluid's damage isn't slight at all, it fits perfectly in DPS rotations right after Aero because it's an off cooldown, making Aero and Fluid Aura effectively a 350 potency combo in one GCD.

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Originally Posted by aisustrong

lets see your fc get past AK HM demonwall and ferdiad without the healer dealing any damage

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Haha, I know right? Unless the group is overgeared, no way anyone can pass this without some Holies or Poisons in this phase.

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Originally Posted by CycLee

be careful with fluid aura, if you make tank and melee DD's run, the slight damage up it gives to you, isnt worth it. i suggest only to use it if you know the mob cant be knocked away or its stands on a wall where you push it to. otherwise you should restrict using FA to defensive purposes only - or your group will start hating you.

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Just time it for killshots; it's not that hard.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

How often do you use FA?

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I suppose that's actually a question for all WHM's to think about XD.

Kind of situational. Some mobs and bosses never get the knock back so you can use fluid aura in an attack rotation. You can also use it when they are next to a wall since they won;t go anywhere. Outside of that i treat it like benediction in that it's an emergency skill for moving a mob back to the Tank when it's not a good idea for them to drag stuff in my face. Though once you can use holy it just becomes a damage rotation skill because you can just stun lock anything that comes near you with holy. But yeah fluid aura doesn't follow the GCD and has no cast time so you can throw it out in between holy and stone II which can be great when you are in damage stuff mode.

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

I started off maining summoner and using Scholar for dungeons for the queues and I noticed something different in this game: I had freedom to do damage. And I liked it!

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If you play conjurer/white-mage/scholar you should be prioritizing healing. I switched to playing Healer because all the PUG groups I play with seem to have healer classes that don't know what they're doing and erroneously believe they should be contributing damage when it's unnecessary or even detrimental.

Go to one of the DPS checking "scarecrow" npc's and test the damage you put out with and without Cleric stance. New healers don't seem to know what they are doing. If you do not switch to Cleric stance before firing off something for damage, you're wasting your mana, and everyones time. If you're firing off something for effect (DoT's), then it doesn't matter.

Your FC isn't wrong, but you have to read the situation.

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Originally Posted by PinnyAerani

There are actually times as a WHM that I wish the team/the tank would take LESS damage so I could DPS more :D

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This is main the point that determines if your healer has the opportunity to DPS or not. If you fire off stoneskin II, pay attention to which people lose SS first. It should only be the tanks. If you can get through the first set of trash mobs with all the DPS's still with SS on, then you can safely DPS, as they are making an effort to avoid damage.

I Stance-Dance on my Scholar all the time.

The key thing is you have to be comfortable with the content. I never go into new content, dungeon or otherwise, with Cleric Stance on. I'm a Healer first, and I think that is a key point that a lot of healers tend to forget. It's not that most people have issue with Healers DPSing, it's just a simple trust issue because there are many healers out there that let their teammates die, or otherwise leave them on the fringe of next-to-no HP, simply because they can't be bothered to get out of Cleric Stance and do what is their main job.

That said, if you are comfortable with the content, and are able to switch in and out of Stance-Dancing with no affect on the party, and they still don't like it, tell them to shove it.

Change FC. They don't know a thing about healing. When you reach higher levels (and probably already in lower dungeons) you will meet comrades who will LOVE you for dps'ing. This is what differs from a good and a bad healer. The former contributes actively, the latter stays idle (and often can't even do his job right)

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Originally Posted by cgbspender

Change FC. They don't know a thing about healing. When you reach higher levels (and probably already in lower dungeons) you will meet comrades who will LOVE you for dps'ing. This is what differs from a good and a bad healer. The former contributes actively, the latter stays idle (and often can't even do his job right)

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Did they raise the cap yet? :o

Also, please stop telling me to change FC, they are my friends despite disagreeing with me. I will join a static for that kind of thought process.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you play conjurer/white-mage/scholar you should be prioritizing healing. I switched to playing Healer because all the PUG groups I play with seem to have healer classes that don't know what they're doing and erroneously believe they should be contributing damage when it's unnecessary or even detrimental.

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I had a WHM in Odin trial before that just kept healing during his enrage while gungirs were still up, trying to top-off everyone. What they should have done was fire off Divine Seal with Medica 2 and then cleric stance DPS so we didn't have to wipe at 1%. His enrage was going to hit well before anyone would be close to death. Yet they kept healing in the inappropriate manner, and that was detrimental to the success.

Prioritizing smart healing strategy is the better way to put it.

The "this is the difference between a good healer and a bad healer" when it comes to dps really annoys me. A good healer keeps the party alive when the **** hits the fan and massive damage is being done. He manages to solo heal when the second healer gets locked out or DCs. Because that's a healers job, to keep everyone a live! Now if you your in a dungeon that doesn't require intensive healing and you can dps while healing then that's fine if your comfortable with the situation.

Of course, you don't just dps.. You pick the right moment for it. I didn't mean to incitate any healer to dps blindly.

Your FC is made up of anti-turbo-nerd babbies.
Abort ASAP.

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Originally Posted by Kaskel2000

A good healer keeps the party alive when the **** hits the fan and massive damage is being done. He manages to solo heal when the second healer gets locked out or DCs.

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Except a flawless healer will know which phases of an instance/boss the **** can potentially hit the fan as you say and won't be in cleric there. If you don't switch to cleric in the gaps where the boss is ONLY autoattacking (there are A LOT of these) and decide to just stand there looking because...hey..."the boss is autoattacking, the raid could suddenly take a big spike damage because the boss might come up with an unexpected ULTIMA spell!"...it doesn't work that way buddy. Battles in this game are heavily scripted, meaning the boss does X move, and 5 seconds later, the boss does Y...etc. there is no such thing as "unexpected", just people not mastering their jobs/boss mechanics and making others fall behind.
A good player in this game knows exactly each boss rotation and knows when and what they should do in order to optimize damage/tank properly/heal properly etc.
The moment you start improvising in this game is because you are either unfamiliar or bad.

Dpsing is circumstancial in my opinion and not based on whether you are or not a good healer of whether or not you want to dps. It is just based on circumstances, understand the quality of the players you are grouped with and of course, your own knowledge of the place and the people you play with.


Mei

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Originally Posted by Kaskel2000

The "this is the difference between a good healer and a bad healer" when it comes to dps really annoys me. A good healer keeps the party alive when the **** hits the fan and massive damage is being done. He manages to solo heal when the second healer gets locked out or DCs. Because that's a healers job, to keep everyone a live! Now if you your in a dungeon that doesn't require intensive healing and you can dps while healing then that's fine if your comfortable with the situation.

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no, thats a bear minimal healer.

A good healer understands the role of every person in the group and improves all of them as much as he can (same for every other person in the group).
That is all.
its not 8 solo players, its a team effort

Scholars are expected to dps at all times in my experienced opinion.

White mage is more pure healing, but even white mage can (and probably should) do some damage in dungeons and trash.

what people expect and what a healer is effectively in a position to do in any given instance/dungeon/hunt/group/party whatever is entirely circumstancial and depends on the others as much as yourself. There cannot be a rule set in stone. Why people want to make out of a any given job a machine job...everything depends on many factors that are on you and/or others. Saying should/must means qwats in my opinion...people should be able to analyze a situation and just go with it rather then say ohh now I want to dps and just forget of the rest....is like saying I want to hit the Boss and dont care of adds, well you can say so and do so but the entire party will wipe...there is a place and a time for everything but nothing is set on stone.

Just me though
Mei

Not max level yet with my new character (26 Conjurer), but so far I'll dps if the party can handle the stuff. If people take a lot of damage, I'll heal full power. But if not necessary I throw out an Aero and some Stones :)

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Originally Posted by Lyzern

Did they raise the cap yet? :o

Also, please stop telling me to change FC, they are my friends despite disagreeing with me. I will join a static for that kind of thought process.

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Friends don't hold friends back!!!

The ability to swap between cleric during pulls and sneak in DoT / give real help with DPS checks during trials is why WHM actually became one of my favorite roles in the game. It's dynamic, and the better you are at healing, the better/stronger you are at DPSing.

After playing endgame BRD, BLM and PLD, WHM is easily the most engaging class i've played thus far.


Your FC is a bit silly for thinking that BTW. Unless Cleric stance is getting people killed, I don't see how effective use of it is anything but a plus. If the party is in no immediate danger of being killed, what's the point in wasting MP overhealing, or doing nothing, when you could become a 5th source of DPS?

In many cases the most engaging part of healing is doing the stance dance :)

Healing 8 man content with my FC my co healer and I coordinate a lot of our cooldowns including cleric stance usage etc. You wipe at 1% on fights a few times and you start squeezing in dps when healing isn't needed. It becomes habit and next thing you know... You are always doing it. Helping push phases /healerflex

Healers should totally do damage as long as they can get away with it. If they aren't doing damage it is like a DPS not doing a proper rotation. Just makes things take longer for no reason.

I like to swap to cleric and help out, especially if the dps are newer or we don't have many ranged for adds on add heavy fights (since it seems melee do better sticking to the boss anyway). As long as no one dies, it's cool. HOLY however is awesome and I use it all the time simply to get the stun on large pulls --- it gives the tank (who normally runs away and apparently doesn't want stoneskin) a few moments of breathing room.

If I'm feeling lazy, I don't dps. But that's not too often since the dungeons get boring if I'm just healing.

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Originally Posted by Staris

its not 8 solo players, its a team effort

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People who come from other MMORPG's appear to be under the belief that it's 8 solo players. Particularly players who came from open-world PvP games. Because in these games a Healer is the punching bag, so nobody plays them. I actually hear of this problem in FFXIV with the PvP content as well, and I've never played the PvP content because of this.

If you're playing FFXIV as it was designed, the healer role is not meant to DPS inside the dungeons, but the option is there. If you want to play a healer who can DPS or a DPS who can heal, you pick Scholar/Summoner, but you still don't expect the DPS to heal any more than you expect the healer to DPS.

The entire reason Cleric Stance exists is so that people will play healers and can play the single-player storyline content. The FATE's are a great example of how awful healers are when compared to DPS-only roles. Every time you have to level sync to where you can't use Holy, the BLM/Thaumaturge and the Archer/Bard will kill everything before you even fire off a shot since they have AOE's at level 18 or 12. It was such a pain in the butt chasing FATE's around for the Atma's only to have one or two DPS players kill everything.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

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I don't know why you keep telling people that healers aren't meant to use their DPS skills except while playing the small portion of the game that is solo content. If you're trying to encourage more bad, lazy healers, that would be the way to do it.

Also, you don't actually need to kill much of anything to get credit in FATEs; either heal the crap out of players with the most enmity or tag every single mob. Enmity gets you credit, not kill count.

Besides, I never have issues with FATEs even as a level-synced SCH OR WHM. Our damage is sufficient, and we will never die; what more could you ask for?

FATEing (and soloing in general) on a SCH is the easiest thing in the game....tag everything with bio and aero (and miasma 2 depending on lvl), have your pet heal you and repeat ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Cynfael

I don't know why you keep telling people that healers aren't meant to use their DPS skills except while playing the small portion of the game that is solo content. If you're trying to encourage more bad, lazy healers, that would be the way to do it.

Also, you don't actually need to kill much of anything to get credit in FATEs; either heal the crap out of players with the most enmity or tag every single mob. Enmity gets you credit, not kill count.

Besides, I never have issues with FATEs even as a level-synced SCH OR WHM. Our damage is sufficient, and we will never die; what more could you ask for?

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If the game was meant to be a cookie-cutter-clone of every lame MMORPG out there, then every class would be required to DPS and never do group healing. That is the point that people are somehow not getting.

When you do SOLO content, the WHM has only one AOE, Holy. You don't get to use it for most of the FATES because it's a level 45 spell. ACN/SMN/SCH has Bio II (Level 26,) Thaumatuge/BLM has several AOE's you get at level 12 and 18.

When you go into any dungeon where you are levelsynced below level 45, you don't get to use Holy either. When people on the forum are suggesting that a healer that stands around doing nothing is not contributing by not DPS'ing, or that they are lazy, they are completely missing the point that the healer role is not meant to be a DPS class because it takes more effort than a stand-alone DPS class, and takes all the blame for the party wiping. What would suck more is if the game actually enforced the job rules, so say you're fighting a boss and everyone but you, the healer is dead, and you're going to wipe, but look the boss has 1% HP (this has happened), maybe I can throw a DoT and kite the boss while I hit regen. If I stop and try to cast anything else, dead.

That's my point. If you're expecting the healer to DPS while in a party, then you're not playing the game as it was intended. It's up to the healer to decide if they want to. If you have a healer in your party, that gives the tank and DPS more time to focus on damage. If you expect the healer to DPS (so effectively the entire party is DPS), then everyone would be responsible for their own healing by bringing a buttload of pots to spam (which can't be done in FFXIV anyway.) This is how it is in other MMORPG's, and this is why freemium games stop being fun (couldn't afford to cashshop-only useful pots, well guess you get left for dead.)

And this brings up another point that I've seen thrown around the forum...

Not everyone is a spreadsheet nerd. If you are so hardcore that everyone must be maximizing every last second of the boss battle, you're completely sucking the fun out of the game. It's a game, not a freaking job at McDonalds.

The point about the FATE's is that the game makes a lot of assumptions around SOLO or PARTY play. If I have to chase around low level FATE's to complete ATMA's where none of the FATE's in that zone are above level 40, then it's going to be impossible as the DPS will beat me to them every time. Want to know how I got the last ATMA for Western Thanalan and the last Atma for Central Thanalan? I camped the "boss" fates, because the trash mobs for the other fates were dead before I could cast anything but Aero.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

When people on the forum are suggesting that a healer that stands around doing nothing is not contributing by not DPS'ing, or that they are lazy, they are completely missing the point that the healer role is not meant to be a DPS class because it takes more effort than a stand-alone DPS class

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Ok, I see why you have that point of view. So let me clarify something: Dealing damage as a healer, is a thousand times easier than dealing damage as a DD. DDs have rotations, procs, positioning, damage buffs to be rotated, etc etc etc, healers don't. All healers have to do to deal damage is turn on Cleric Stance, throw in a couple of spells here and there, and that's it! Congratulations on being an above-average healer! You've done it simply by casting 3 or 4 spells more than you normally would, instead of:

looking at the screen... waiting... looking at bars... waiting... nothing happens? wait some more...

EXCITING!

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If you're playing FFXIV as it was designed, the healer role is not meant to DPS inside the dungeons, but the option is there. If you want to play a healer who can DPS or a DPS who can heal, you pick Scholar/Summoner, but you still don't expect the DPS to heal any more than you expect the healer to DPS.

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No. A healer who never casts an offensive spell is inefficient. Just like a DPS who gets lazy on their rotations.

Someone's acting like some local school bully who bullies other kids who has higher grades than he does :P

The "fun" factor is seriously biased and subjective. What is "fun" anyway? One could consider football "fun", but I would pass on chasing a ball in the grass with sweaty grown men/women, thank you. So why can't making the most out of the class you like be considered "fun"?

That aside, so much more biased and subjective nonsense in there that doesn't even help elaborate your standpoint. This statement for example: "then you're not playing the game as it was intended". Exactly how was the game supposed to be played as intended? Do elaborate.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

SNIP

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The only reason i enjoy playing a healer in this game is because I can DPS. I got my atma just fine all you need is one aero on one mob and you have the same chance to get an Atma. Most dungeons pre 45 I can heal in Cleric Stance except for a couple of bosses, what a waste of skill and abilities standing around doing nothing. Low geared tank, very little dps from me I get that. Push yourself, improve, get better.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

If the game was meant to be a cookie-cutter-clone of every lame MMORPG out there, then every class would be required to DPS and never do group healing. That is the point that people are somehow not getting.

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Not quoting everything, but let's start here: how is pigeonholing the healer role into pure heal/buff somehow less cookie-cutter?

A few more points:

-Yes, standing around doing nothing when you could be contributing somehow is lazy and unfair to your party members who are actually playing well.

- Pure healing in this game is a very easy job if you're at all good at it. Please don't pretend that healers have it rough with playing at bare minimum expectation, because they don't. At least not any rougher than any other player has it with incompetent party members.

- Aero is literally all you need to get gold during trash mob FATEs swarmed by other players. Tag each mob as it spawns, and that's it. Identify a tank or other high-enmity AoE character and heal it if applicable. I've done plenty of FATEs as a solo WHM, and Holy is not the only tool in your box. Blizzard II also works well for tagging clumps of mobs in low-level FATEs.

- I highly doubt that you have the breadth of play experience in this game to tell other people what is intended and what is not, and I don't think that you truly appreciate the capabilities of your own class.

inb4 another elitist accusation

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Originally Posted by Lyrica_Ashtine

inb4 another elitist accusation

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*passes the popcorn to Lyrica*

You can have all my popcorn, actually. I don't need it, being an elitist, fun-sucking vampire who plays from McDonald's.

I am so tired of hearing "elitist" in MMO forums. You join group content to complete it with other people. No one is expecting you to be great, or have the perfect build, study spreadsheets ect. You always take the argument there though, because it makes us easier to attack. What I want, and what most other competent players want is that if join group content you make a reasonable attempt to perform as well as you can. That means knowing the abilities of your job and to perform them reasonably well. If you know you wipe groups, seek out some information to attempt to improve. What upsets me and others is "I play this game for fun, it is my subscription." That is true, but there is a social convention in these games that you are trying to accomplish a common goal and it would be polite to try and help to the best of your abilities. I know that there have been times that my DPS has been the only thing that saved our group. I chose to become familiar with the skills, and became good at stance dancing so when the situation arose I was ready and capable to perform for my group. If I was not somewhat comfortable there would have been no way to pull that off. The only reason I do those things is because I care about the experience of others, that does not make elitist or hardcore, it means I am considerate and thoughtful.

I think KisaiTenshi makes one very good point, though. The healer is responsible for keeping the party alive and if anyone dies or we wipe, we WILL get the blame. (Especially in Cleric, even if the cause is they didn't avoid a telegraph).

Personally, if I'm in any doubt-- the tank is doing things that make me a bit nervous (or DPS for that matter)-- I just stay out of CS. Even if I then look back and think "I could have worked in a triple or quadro holy afterall". At least no one's dead.

The other times I don't really DPS is when I'm really tired. Some times I just got done raiding or doing something, I'm trying to get the EX bonus before I sleep... So I'm just kind of half consciously spot healing where needed and not doing much else.

Lastly, I'll point out that DPSing is a lot easier on SCHs than WHMs. SCHs have the off-GCD, insta-cast lustrate which isn't affected by CS, and CS doesn't nerf the fairy either (unless you summon her with it on).

I won't resent a healer that only heals, though. As long as we're alive. DPSing should be a personal choice, IMO. I do it when I think I can get away with it. Heals first, however. And there are various reasons for one to not play at their peak all the time, especially in laughable content such as EX roulette. Hopefully all that doesn't make me a horrible, inefficient healer :)