I want to stop playing Summoner.... But I cant

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Originally Posted by Gardes

You can beat both t10 and t11 with 2 ha weapon dps and 2 soldiery weapon (one of them the smn) by at least 40 seconds from enrage. Dunno about t12 and 13 cause we arent on i115 weapon or below anymore but I dont see how smn is a liability in dps checks when everyone has the required gear and performing as best as they can be. Havent seen too much of t13 though.

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Because that's already outgearing what's truly required. What you're basically saying is "If you're willing to wait for progression, SMN does okay." To put it in context, NIN cleared T13 before either DRG or SMN.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Because that's already outgearing what's truly required. What you're basically saying is "If you're willing to wait for progression, SMN does okay." To put it in context, NIN cleared T13 before either DRG or SMN.

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Not sure what youre getting at. If the requirement is to beat every thing as a smn before the 3rd week of fcob season start then I guess I'd see your point but as far I know everyone is already past that time limit. No point in fussing on whether the smn in a group with i115 weapons only is holding the team back because they wouldnt be in i115 weapons only. Pretty sure most groups would have fully outfitted their dps with magitek weapons by now?

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Not sure what youre getting at. If the requirement is to beat every thing as a smn before the 3rd week of fcob season start then I guess I'd see your point but as far I know everyone is already past that time limit. No point in fussing on whether the smn in a group with i115 weapons only is holding the team back because they wouldnt be in i115 weapons only. Pretty sure most groups would have fully outfitted their dps with magitek weapons by now?

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: DRG before the buff was in this exact state. We all knew that some shiny new gear would let it clear T13, but no one wanted it in progression because it was a liability. DRG got fixed. Why shouldn't SMN?

Never said I am against any buffs for smn. Hell i have a smn in my group so it would benefit me as well. Aside from that, you seem to use the word progression in terms of global scale, not personal group scale. We wont really have anything else until expansion's alexander and by then it would be a whole different ball game with level cap increase, new skill, new itemization, etc. I just think liability is too strong a word to describe a smn.

Side note: my smn and others told me they watched a stream of some guide maker who finally beat t12 and their smn was a full blown clicker and was dropping dots left and right. I mean, if THAT gets a pass..

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Originally Posted by Gardes

Never said I am against any buffs for smn. Hell i have a smn in my group so it would benefit me as well. Aside from that, you seem to use the word progression in terms of global scale, not personal group scale. We wont really have anything else until expansion's alexander and by then it would be a whole different ball game with level cap increase, new skill, new itemization, etc. I just think liability is too strong a word to describe a smn.

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Granted. Just, it kinda seems wrong to drop the current issue just because gear is making up for it. I mean, it *could* all change with the expansion, but if nothing ever gets said about it, there's no way to know if SE is going to change anything.

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Originally Posted by Gardes

You can beat both t10 and t11 with 2 ha weapon dps and 2 soldiery weapon (one of them the smn) by at least 40 seconds from enrage. Dunno about t12 and 13 cause we arent on i115 weapon or below anymore but I dont see how smn is a liability in dps checks when everyone has the required gear and performing as best as they can be. Havent seen too much of t13 though.

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Can beat both T10 and T11 with just HA weapons using a SMN, with 40 seconds to spare. My first T12 win was with all HA weapons except the Monk who just got the Tombstone from T11 so they upgraded.

T13 has the same DPS check as T12, you just need to meld some VIT accessories with only i110 body pieces.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

Because that's already outgearing what's truly required. What you're basically saying is "If you're willing to wait for progression, SMN does okay." To put it in context, NIN cleared T13 before either DRG or SMN.

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SMN does take a bit longer to map out a fight to make the most of your resources, VS pew pew BLM. This would be especially difficult while figuring out mechanics on top of things. Other than that, BLM and SMN were fairly close damage wise with only i110 crafted.
Because FCOB has very limited movement, I could see why BLM would have been preferred for progression.
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I do hope things are addressed for the expansion. As people reach i131 the difference becomes very noticeable. Luckily it's not an issue for any current content.

Well with 2.5 just around the corner, I'm hoping for a better BiS gear selection.

FCoB has very little movement?
T10 - Charge move and having to step in and out of stuff.
T11 - Add phase where you have to rotate around the arena, avoid gas and work with the pairing mechanics
T12 - Not that much movement
T13 - Earth shaker, flare stars, mega flare

Generally, it's pretty much the same as second coil. T6 you have the binding mechanic to which to non BLM will usually move. You could ocassionally move with them and move into branches. That was alright.
T7 you could have the Shriek and move to the back. That's pretty much the only movement you do.
T8, no movement at all unless assigned
T9, Meteors and divebombs

Final coil seems more movement heavy to me. Imperative movement that is

Also you reducing Black Mages to just pew pew just shows how ignorant you are over the class. I dare you to get over 500 DPS on T11. I dare you to pew pew your way through it. If anything, Summoner is a lot easier to achieve good DPS on a fight where the mechanics are rather unknown. At least to me this was the case. Black Mage isn't too difficult either, but to have a reductionist view makes little sense.

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Originally Posted by ViviAnimus

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I got 510 with an i125 weapon, one battle voiced foes and a 10% crit ratio. There really isn't much movement to be done here. You can just eat the gases if you have no procs/swiftcasts, weave your spells on the adds phase if you want to dodge the ground AOEs and for the last phase, unless you are REALLY unlucky and get every single tether, pushing 500+ really isn't that hard.

However, I do agree with your second statement about SMN doing more DPS when you are still unfamiliar with the fight. BLM is the kind of class that to achieve max DPS, you have to be perfectly familiar with the fight and mechanics to know when to save your buffs, swiftcasts, etc.

All I was trying to say, Kairi is that Final Coil isn't less movement heavy as second coil.

If you just stick with the job you like and have invested in, then it will be competitive eventually. The battle team devs won't leave a job sub-par forever. They made fixes for DRG. Heavensward is going to rebalance every job again with new skills anyway. SMN has the flexibility to improve the most because the new Egis they add can bring entirely new movesets. For example Ramuh-egi could be a support buff for all we know that increases your damage and mp regen, makes bane infect more targets or anything like that you can think of.

After getting my summoner to 50 (as my first 50) I started to gear it up and got through zeinith and the i90 set (as that was the farm gear at the time) then immediately switched to gearing sch. I dont even carry any of the smn gear I had anymore because even doing exactly as everyone says to do I'd be the first kicked from a party; and it happened a lot. The only times I ever was able to run new content was the first time, as people went "oh new player, I get bonus" then I just switched and am currently working on choosing a different dps class.

I believe it was a gear thing, because I honestly spent about 2-3 hours looking up smn here on the forums trying to understand what I was doing wrong; but even as a gear thing...If smn isn't doing X, parties dont want them. Being on SCH, I've seen parties kick smns for no reason I can fathom but the vote goes though. Even seen more SMN kicked then DRG before and after 2.4...

Something has to give, would I like to see the job being a true sumoner hell yes...BUT I'd be happy if it was on par with the other dps classes.

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

I'd be the first kicked from a party; and it happened a lot.

I've seen parties kick smns for no reason I can fathom but the vote goes though.

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Damn, sounds harsh on Primal data center. I hardly ever see people get kicked on Chaos (Europe) unless they are actually doing nothing (offline/afk).

Summoners became a victim of the power creep item level 90 and below their DPS was higher than every other DPS job. Then with the item level increase, gear itemization, melee, DRG and BLM buff the Summoner's DPS relative to other Jobs was just above the Bards which caused Final Coil groups not to bring them.

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

After getting my summoner to 50 (as my first 50) I started to gear it up and got through zeinith and the i90 set (as that was the farm gear at the time) then immediately switched to gearing sch. I dont even carry any of the smn gear I had anymore because even doing exactly as everyone says to do I'd be the first kicked from a party; and it happened a lot. The only times I ever was able to run new content was the first time, as people went "oh new player, I get bonus" then I just switched and am currently working on choosing a different dps class.

I believe it was a gear thing, because I honestly spent about 2-3 hours looking up smn here on the forums trying to understand what I was doing wrong; but even as a gear thing...If smn isn't doing X, parties dont want them. Being on SCH, I've seen parties kick smns for no reason I can fathom but the vote goes though. Even seen more SMN kicked then DRG before and after 2.4...

Something has to give, would I like to see the job being a true sumoner hell yes...BUT I'd be happy if it was on par with the other dps classes.

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Wow. I have yet to see this happen, but that's probably cause I only see mostly BLM, DRG, NIN, and/or BRD queue up in dungeons. I barely see SMN's in dungeons nowadays when I was working on my SMN zodiac weapon. I was playing BLM to speed run.. I kinda wanna test this out, like if I go as my SMN, would I get kicked for playing the class even though I'm pretty geared? It would be so sad if that happened... That just mean the community looks down upon people who play SMN. Heck, when you see some FCOB static looking for someone to fill a caster spot, they usually prefer BLM > SMN.

I've never been kicked from any content while on SMN... I didn't know it would be a thing. I've had someone tell me I was on the wrong class on Brayflox HM for a speedrun in DF but I wasn't kicked but that was the only time someone's ever said anything about me being on SMN.

Personally I haven't been kicked from anything as a summone. Have seen pf's that exclude smn for things like t9 and above though

I hope dev reduce the CD for Enkindle skill to 120s instead of 300s. 300s is too long for skill that not give a higher damage or the CD still 300s but raise the skill potency to 500+ since its do higher damage. Then please cancel casting time to Bio 2 and Miasma 1 since that the only main dps skill that SMN has and it can distinguish the SMN from BLM in term of gameplay utilities since BLM is already have higher dps & good AOE skill. Besides, dev can remove the raise and psyhick skill since its mostly useless in raid/dungeon coz SMN have no time to use it because SMN usually tend to DPS rather than do healing/raise thing like SCH/WHM do. This 2 slot can be replace by damage buff/skill for SMN.

I also like the idea, that summoning pet will get permanent party buff like summon garuda will get 5% increase int & spell speed/skill speed etc. I also like the rework idea that, if summoning pet like garuda, SMN will get access to wind type spell and this elemental spell can replace with raise and physick spell. Last but not least, I really hope dev will rework the appearances of the egi's. At least create a true primal appearances in size of the player/minion and not the crystallize one. This will make SMN look like a true Final Fantasy summoner.

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Originally Posted by Rufalus

Damn, sounds harsh on Primal data center. I hardly ever see people get kicked on Chaos (Europe) unless they are actually doing nothing (offline/afk).

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And my SMN use to get 2-4 comme's on ave doing content...on Primal Data Center.

And I didn't do the 'standard' rotations all the time b/c the way I do it works better for me/was higher dps for me.

Actually, I've never been vote-kicked from a party....on any role...on Primal Data Center.


As to the 'buff the SMN' bandwagon. Players in MMO's always flock the the current in thing. Right now, SMN is being back-burnered by the playerbase. The expansion will likely 'fix' this. In the meantime, a capable SMN is still able to do ALL the content in the game. Now are they always 'the best DD for the job?' No. But NO DD is 100% of the time the 'best DD' And yes, right now, the FCOB ppl are leaning more BLM>SMN...but that is how the endgamer min/max crowd works...just because the min/maxers say 'this is the best way' doesn't ever mean it's the ONLY way.

So far,I enjoy this class better than the other ones. Less boring and I can solo stuff.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

And my SMN use to get 2-4 comme's on ave doing content...on Primal Data Center.

And I didn't do the 'standard' rotations all the time b/c the way I do it works better for me/was higher dps for me.

Actually, I've never been vote-kicked from a party....on any role...on Primal Data Center.


As to the 'buff the SMN' bandwagon. Players in MMO's always flock the the current in thing. Right now, SMN is being back-burnered by the playerbase. The expansion will likely 'fix' this. In the meantime, a capable SMN is still able to do ALL the content in the game. Now are they always 'the best DD for the job?' No. But NO DD is 100% of the time the 'best DD' And yes, right now, the FCOB ppl are leaning more BLM>SMN...but that is how the endgamer min/max crowd works...just because the min/maxers say 'this is the best way' doesn't ever mean it's the ONLY way.

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I honestly could not agree more with this statement. Summoner has been my main since 2.1. Like Kinsey said, take a look as who's saying summoner is poor DPS. It's just about damn near all FCoB people.

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Originally Posted by Raiker

I honestly could not agree more with this statement. Summoner has been my main since 2.1. Like Kinsey said, take a look as who's saying summoner is poor DPS. It's just about damn near all FCoB people.

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You should balance to the top-end players, AKA the min/maxers because balance doesn't mean anything in the lower levels of play.

The Summoner right now is balanced around the lower levels of play not min/maxers that's why it's left out of FCOB learning parties. Waiting for other team members to get over geared for FCOB is pointless because by then raid statics are going to want experience players not people just getting iinto FCOB.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

The Summoner right now is balanced around the lower levels of play not min/maxers that's why it's left out of FCOB learning parties. Waiting for other team members to get over geared for FCOB is pointless because by then raid statics are going to want experience players not people just getting iinto FCOB.

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I don't always agree with Akiza, but on this one I do. Classes need to be balanced around end game, since it is the most competitive aspect of the game. Balance in content that everyone is overgeared for anyways does not matter. Sure, I can take my SMN into almost all content in the game and do ok. Hell I even took mine into T11 last night because our BLM was out sick. There was no doubt that it made the fight more difficult than it needed to be.

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Originally Posted by Lavieh

You should balance to the top-end players, AKA the min/maxers because balance doesn't mean anything in the lower levels of play.

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Well, you could unbalance a class at lower levels of play. I mean, some of the suggestions are to up the DPS of a SMN so that it can use ED without dropping too low, but in any situation where you don't really need to worry about MP, would this not give a rather large boost to it's standard DPS numbers, since they'd have the boosted numbers AND three Festers.

Of course there is a bit more wiggle room at lower levels, and Balance comes most into play when everyone is playing at their best, presumably in more difficult content, but there should be some semblance of balance at both levels of play. ((If for no other reason than to avoid giving players a false understanding of their classes power.))

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

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At lower levels of play people play with varying skills and perform at varying values. No ones DPS will every break above the ceiling that is capable in higher level play though, so no one will ever be considered broken/OP. So, no, you can't really "break" a class in the lower end of things. On top of all that balance is meaningless because DPS typically plays no major role in completion when doing easier content.

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Originally Posted by ChazNatlo

Of course there is a bit more wiggle room at lower levels, and Balance comes most into play when everyone is playing at their best, presumably in more difficult content, but there should be some semblance of balance at both levels of play. ((If for no other reason than to avoid giving players a false understanding of their classes power.))

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It is impossible to balance around lower levels of play because the differences in player skill at those levels are massive. Easiest way to see this is just to look around during an ST. When you are fighting a single target and some ninja dropped a doton........ we all know what it means. When you watch a DRG who never uses heavy thrust.......yep. When you see a bard that is not using venomous bite or windbite...... yaaaaa. No amount of balance can ever account for people who do not play at a high level.

Casual players are not always bad players, but bad players are always casual players.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I don't always agree with Akiza, but on this one I do. Classes need to be balanced around end game, since it is the most competitive aspect of the game. Balance in content that everyone is overgeared for anyways does not matter. Sure, I can take my SMN into almost all content in the game and do ok. Hell I even took mine into T11 last night because our BLM was out sick. There was no doubt that it made the fight more difficult than it needed to be.

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Yes, this is true...but you also can't judge endgame by ONE type of content.
Especially when no matter what content you're doing, we have typically 4 party slots open to 'DPS roles' and 6 available roles to fill them. No matter how you cut the cookie, someone's getting left out. In the past, it was melee. People basically preferred 2 mages/1 bard/1 melee. Now with the DRG adjustments, NIN being added, and some of the mechanic's issues/longevity that happens in Final Coil, parties are preferring to go in with 2 melee and 2 ranged...one ranged still being given to bard.

Also, this is content that currently is mostly being done by 'dedicated teams'...meaning the actual roles people play is less important in favor of group synergy. Many groups simply found it easier to go in with a BLM over having both BLM/SMN...they had to pick one. But again, it's not as much SMN sucks as much as 'finally, content people prefer having 2 melee in' ...but 2 melee come at the cost of having 2 mages. 2 of ANY mages.

Still, the next flavor of the month endgame elite content to come out....it might be all caster heavy again.
...or the new, level 50+ skillsets each role gains might change the dynamics again as well
...or things might be re-balanced

It's ONE type of content. Basing whether or not you wish to continue to play a role (which is what the OP was about), based on ONE type of content is silly. Play what you want...if it needs to be rebalanced, it will be...but also, it's not near as bad as people make it out to be. This content is currently clearable with a SMN in the party. Some might say 'but it's harder'....maybe that 'harder' is what SE intended, and people not doing it that way are actually pushing above and beyond what SE expected (which happens often btw...take the recent 'NIN nerfs' as an example).

Basically, your idea of 'balanced' might not be SE's idea of 'balanced' Nor is basing your idea of balance on ONE series of battles atm really wise. If every new endgame set of content introduced over the next several patches had a 'SMN issue', then yes, your side would have a point (which is what DID happen to DRGs). But one new series of content...one major patch away from an expansion/level cap increase, nothing to sweat over. Huge adjustments to ALL roles (including the addition of 3 more raid jobs), inc.

So people who love and main SMN, hang tight. It's only one patch of content.
People who bandwagon...be ready to have to totally re-gear when 3.0 lands because you need to jump onto the next wagon...whatever role that might now be.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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While I agree with your assessment that Final Coil was designed to be very melee heavy, as well as that being a major part of why SMN has been left behind, I disagree with the idea that it is ok for content to be easier for one party than the next due to composition. And I know you only see final coil as a small part of the game, but it is ALL of the content that us hardcore raiding guys have to work with. And that will be the case for a couple more months.

There is no time in T10-T13 where a SMN is a better choice than a BLM. Not one. And that is the real issue. BLM ST damage should not be higher than SMN, unless SMN can make it up in another way, like utility. Currently, they cannot due to several issues, most of which are revolving around MP management/Final Coil design/gear imbalance. Since Final Coil can't be redesigned, I would like to see SMN adjusted so at least it will be a viable alternative to a BLM for final coil.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

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Well no. Obviously you can't balance for the bads, if they're bad enough you might as well balance it for my cat to play. But assuming you have two people of equivalent (good) talent and gear levels play ST, primarily distinguished by the class they play, shouldn't they feel like they're contributing near equal amounts to the fights, within acceptable variance of "x" class being better in "y" scenario and for classes where that matters, RNG.

I'm not saying Summoner shouldn't be buffed, from what I'm hearing, it could use one. I'm just saying we shouldn't completely ignore lower tier play when thinking of ways to balance the classes.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

Yes, this is true...but you also can't judge endgame by ONE type of content.
Especially when no matter what content you're doing, we have typically 4 party slots open to 'DPS roles' and 6 available roles to fill them. No matter how you cut the cookie, someone's getting left out. In the past, it was melee. People basically preferred 2 mages/1 bard/1 melee. Now with the DRG adjustments, NIN being added, and some of the mechanic's issues/longevity that happens in Final Coil, parties are preferring to go in with 2 melee and 2 ranged...one ranged still being given to bard.

Also, this is content that currently is mostly being done by 'dedicated teams'...meaning the actual roles people play is less important in favor of group synergy. Many groups simply found it easier to go in with a BLM over having both BLM/SMN...they had to pick one. But again, it's not as much SMN sucks as much as 'finally, content people prefer having 2 melee in' ...but 2 melee come at the cost of having 2 mages. 2 of ANY mages.

Still, the next flavor of the month endgame elite content to come out....it might be all caster heavy again.
...or the new, level 50+ skillsets each role gains might change the dynamics again as well
...or things might be re-balanced

It's ONE type of content. Basing whether or not you wish to continue to play a role (which is what the OP was about), based on ONE type of content is silly. Play what you want...if it needs to be rebalanced, it will be...but also, it's not near as bad as people make it out to be. This content is currently clearable with a SMN in the party. Some might say 'but it's harder'....maybe that 'harder' is what SE intended, and people not doing it that way are actually pushing above and beyond what SE expected (which happens often btw...take the recent 'NIN nerfs' as an example).

Basically, your idea of 'balanced' might not be SE's idea of 'balanced' Nor is basing your idea of balance on ONE series of battles atm really wise. If every new endgame set of content introduced over the next several patches had a 'SMN issue', then yes, your side would have a point (which is what DID happen to DRGs). But one new series of content...one major patch away from an expansion/level cap increase, nothing to sweat over. Huge adjustments to ALL roles (including the addition of 3 more raid jobs), inc.

So people who love and main SMN, hang tight. It's only one patch of content.
People who bandwagon...be ready to have to totally re-gear when 3.0 lands because you need to jump onto the next wagon...whatever role that might now be.

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Final Coil is the only type of endgame in 2.4 that matters so the Summoner should be balanced around that. Progression statics ran 2 melee and caster setup pre 2.4 and SE adjusted Black Mage because they were excluded from content. Now that the Summoner is being excluded from Final Coils SE has chose to ignore it.

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Originally Posted by Tex_Mex

I disagree with the idea that it is ok for content to be easier for one party than the next due to composition. And I know you only see final coil as a small part of the game, but it is ALL of the content that us hardcore raiding guys have to work with. And that will be the case for a couple more months.

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But see here's the problem. It is nigh on impossible for every 'important' battle to be 100% equally balanced at all times for every role to perform equally on. Because in order to have THAT happen, you'd lose some of the very things that make each role unique...or you'd risk the potential of over-compensating and 'fixing' a role for one battle it is less viable in...only to make it OP in another battle (of equal importance). I get it sucks to be the guy on the role that is being left out...especially if you are capable of doing the battle.

And therein once again lies the rub. It's not that SMN's can't do final coil...it's that other roles are more adept to it. I am saying, it's okay for other roles to shine...as long as it's limited/which roles shine change depending on the content....and as long as the content is still doable with a mix of all available roles. Which currently it is.

Sure, the endgame, elite, dedicated team/static crowd are going to do things the Min/Max BiS...fastest/easiest way. And more power to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only way...or even the 'right' way. Nor am I saying there's not an issue...but, my suspicion is the issue will be 'ignored' until 3.0 because with the level cap increase, new skills/spells (and a pet in smn's case) will be added that will likely sort the issue out. My observation is that SMN likely is about as peaked as it can be for 'level 50' and making any real adjustments (like those that have been suggested), might 'solve' this Final Coil issue...but might create further imbalance not only down the road, but within current content. (Like EX primals and BC2).

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach. It could also be that the mechanics in Final Coil need adjusted a bit vs adjusting SMN....adjusting the coil itself (not nerfing btw...just adjusting), might actually be the more logical approach at this point in the game development/life.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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The release of this final coil brought SMN issuesback to the forefront again because the class has not seen any significant changes in the past few patches. While I agree that perfect balance around every fight in the game is impossible, shouldn't at least 1 of the final 4 coil fights be something that SMN excels at?

As it stands now, not one fight in final coil is more suited to SMN than it is to BLM. Not one. 0/4, and that is very disheartening to me. It also suggests that the issues with the class go a bit beyond just coil design issues. MP management, utility, and ST dps are all areas that the SMN class is really hurting right now. Most people agree that SMN should have higher ST DPS than BLM, since it has much lower AoE DPS, but even this is not a reality. SMN is completely overshadowed by BLM at the moment and feels like the DRG of ranged classes (before the last patch that buffed DRG of course)

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach.

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Gear could easily be adjusted. We either have to pick spellspeed, or an overabundance of accuracy. Hell even both of our i130 weapons have spellspeed on them. Every other dreadwyrm DPS weapon has bis stats of some variation. It's been tested to death that spellspeed has a negligible effect on our DPS. This is not true for any other DPS class in the game. Melee/BRD tend to prefer det/crit over skillspeed, but skillspeed does boost their DPS. When asked about the crazy amount of spellspeed they simply said that there are only so many options for stat combos, yet we were effected the hardest? Spellspeed may be revamped for the expansion, but by that time this gear will be very obsolete.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

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Your argument is a little flawed and nor do you seem to really understand the real problem here.

First of all - When gauging DPS everything should be put into a vacuum and you should always consider the perfect scenario for every situation. This is why we can effectively do test Dummy comparisons and easily find out that SMN is not just weaker but weaker by a good bit than their other casting counter part, who has very similar strength/weakness than SMN does. If anything taking their Strengths vs. Their weakness and putting it on paper you could easily see that SMN should be pretty much on top for FCoB - But this isn't the case. The damage spread that BLM has over smn is huge, not to mention that buffs like Selene's SPS and Foe Req give a BLM more mileage than they do a SMN.

Second : You can't over-compensate for a balanced buff if it brings the class into balance. Fact of the matter is FCoB right now is our endgame and SE is still developing the new endgame, they can easily develop it in a way that would make whatever changes they give SMN will have no impact on the new fights. Worst case scenario they can always nerf SMN if they get to strong in later content, but that is the cycle - That is how a Meta should work. Look at League of legends, a beautiful example of a shifting meta based on buffs/nerfs. If we just stop continuing the circle and say "Well this class isn't good right now, but IT may be good later" then we just leave a class out - Which is stupid. Again though, SE has the ability to design their content and they can easily ensure that SMN would not go unchecked in future content.

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Originally Posted by Kinseykinz

But see here's the problem. It is nigh on impossible for every 'important' battle to be 100% equally balanced at all times for every role to perform equally on. Because in order to have THAT happen, you'd lose some of the very things that make each role unique...or you'd risk the potential of over-compensating and 'fixing' a role for one battle it is less viable in...only to make it OP in another battle (of equal importance). I get it sucks to be the guy on the role that is being left out...especially if you are capable of doing the battle.

And therein once again lies the rub. It's not that SMN's can't do final coil...it's that other roles are more adept to it. I am saying, it's okay for other roles to shine...as long as it's limited/which roles shine change depending on the content....and as long as the content is still doable with a mix of all available roles. Which currently it is.

Sure, the endgame, elite, dedicated team/static crowd are going to do things the Min/Max BiS...fastest/easiest way. And more power to them. But that doesn't mean it's the only way...or even the 'right' way. Nor am I saying there's not an issue...but, my suspicion is the issue will be 'ignored' until 3.0 because with the level cap increase, new skills/spells (and a pet in smn's case) will be added that will likely sort the issue out. My observation is that SMN likely is about as peaked as it can be for 'level 50' and making any real adjustments (like those that have been suggested), might 'solve' this Final Coil issue...but might create further imbalance not only down the road, but within current content. (Like EX primals and BC2).

So since having differences in party roles seems important (otherwise they are the same job reskinned) and since an expansion w/ new skills and level cap in inc, I think it's wiser to take a 'wait and see' approach. It could also be that the mechanics in Final Coil need adjusted a bit vs adjusting SMN....adjusting the coil itself (not nerfing btw...just adjusting), might actually be the more logical approach at this point in the game development/life.

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Min/Maxers decide the optimal party set up and everyone other endgame team/static follows that even if SE states other party compositions can complete it. Jobs should be designed around min/maxers not the minimum required to complete hardcore content because min/maxers decide if a job is viable or if it dies. Look at WoW and what happened to the Warlock Blizzard was saying the class was fine but since min/maxers decided it wasn't optimal to bring to endgame raiding the Warlock population died. The only thing Blizzard can do to resurrect the Warlock is to completely redesign it. In order to save the Summoner without breaking Scholar SE has to completely redesign it.

A lot of interesting points being made recently.
Indeed, content design plays a very big role in how strong/weak a job is regarded:

(This list refers to balance at the time of release)***

- 1st Coil:
T1: SMN - Multi-doting and ability to kite slimes.
T2: Balanced - SMN had some utility in Supervirus, due to M-DMG enemy attacks.
T4: Balanced - A mix of AoE and Split-enemy placement; a very balanced fight.
T5: SMN - Pet soaking, Miasma > Lethargy, clutch battle raises were a thing.

2nd Coil:
T6: SMN - High-movement and RNG mechanic choices hinder BLM.
T7: SMN - Kiting & multi-doting.
T8: BLM - Very high uptime, no mp issues.
T9: Balanced

Final Coil:
T10: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues.
T11: BLM - Same as above + resistances hinder SMN multi-doting.
T12: BLM - This is the closest turn to being balanced; SMN has utility in Bluefire, but BLM raw damage and on-demand burst wins.
T13: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues. Also, Apocatastasis is huge here.

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Originally Posted by Dextro

A lot of interesting points being made recently.

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Very good points and I really like your break down.

T6: I feel was pretty balanced for both classes. BLM had some good AOE potential with Bulbs and Bees. The LOS method made movement a non-issue for BLM and with vines you could have a more mobile class do the breaking. (this is all splitting hairs of course but, just saying Second Coil was very well tuned for all classes)

T10: BLM - High uptime, no mp issues. - Decent Multi-Dot potential for SMN and using Ifrit raises SMN single target damage to a comparable level.
T11: BLM - Same as above + resistances hinder SMN multi-doting. - Ifrit Pet Soak for Repelling Cannons lessens healer strain - But overall BLM does have an easier time as the only Caster.
T12: BLM - This is the closest turn to being balanced; SMN has utility in Bluefire, but BLM raw damage and on-demand burst wins. - SMN with Ifrit has great single target damage for this phase as well as multi-dot potential with Bennus (Phase 1-2) - SMN has the best controlled AOE damage for the Bennu phase especially with 2 melee. The Blue/Red fire utility SMN has I'd say is trumped by Bard, since bard can use down time to regain TP anyways.

IMO
T10 - Balanced
T11 - BLM
T12 - SMN
T13 - I do not have enough experience to comment on this turn.