We want cleric stance

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Except Sword Oath and no-Defiance don't allow us to effectively triple our damage output like Cleric Stance does.

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Guessing you never played healer before. Cleric stance about doubles the damage you do in Frontlines, not triple. Also, Sword Oath doesn't have a negative impact on you. Cleric stance makes your healing garbage and one mistake can get you or your teammates killed in the 5 second recast it has.

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

healers generally ruin pvp, I think removing cleric stance is the very least they should have done xD

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24v24v24 ruined PvP, AKA Frontlines. Wolves Den felt a lot more balanced than Frontlines.

The fact that you can have any amount of healers in a group breaks it. They should limit it to two per group. Not really sure why they haven't done this yet...

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Originally Posted by Slib

Guessing you never played healer before. Cleric stance about doubles the damage you do in Frontlines, not triple. Also, Sword Oath doesn't have a negative impact on you. Cleric stance makes your healing garbage and one mistake can get you or your teammates killed in the 5 second recast it has.

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Feel free to Lodestone. Before posting that one I did a quick test of the damage using Holy, uncapped, in a basic MND set. How it scales based on i80 and whatever VIT accessories are chosen I do not recall offhand. You making that correction doesn't exactly take away from the point though, lol. Sword Oath still doesn't even double our damage, and is subject to GCD whereas Cleric Stance is not.

You still cannot compare them. At all.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

Feel free to Lodestone. Before posting that one I did a quick test of the damage using Holy, uncapped, in a basic MND set. How it scales based on i80 and whatever VIT accessories are chosen I do not recall offhand. You making that correction doesn't exactly take away from the point though, lol. Sword Oath still doesn't even double our damage, and is subject to GCD whereas Cleric Stance is not.

You still cannot compare them. At all.

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Yes you can, when being forced into Shield Oath would nerf your damage by 20% flat, and not have the extra auto attack damage. The OP is saying to force tanks into their defensive stance since they are tanks and not DPS. Just like how healers were forced to not use cleric stance to apply DPS since they want us to just heal.

Edit: Also, you having a GCD on it makes you able to take it off or change them right away. The penalty for cleric stance is a 5 second downtime of being able to take it off, which is very dangerous if you incorrectly use it. I could see something like 10 seconds instead of 5 on the recast tho.

You are correct. OP is saying lock us into Shield Oath, which would be fine, but SE had better give Provoke a use or us a way to force people to target us beyond Cover. Otherwise you'd never see a tank again, whereas healers still haven't lost their primary function.

I believe they went that route because (as nice as it would be) locking teams to two healers max isn't realistic in such large-scale games. The way it is now though, having more than three healers is rather wasteful considering they can't turn those extra bodies into overclocked Holy's.

As stated before, Cleric Stance and Swiftcast were targeted because of job stacking.

There are still few games where I see 3 - 5 healers on the enemy team (tho this could be because two groups joined together, or parts of them) and things will never die without good CC and focus firing... But this is where I think frontlines fails...there are times when you join and some one of the alliance teams do not have a healer, or the whole 24 person alliance only has 1-2 healers. This is very depressing because you know you are not going to win or at least enjoy the PvP match. There really needs to be something that makes you have at least 2 healers per party or this will continue happening.

Anyway, back on point, this is going to happen to every class, the job stacking of course. Summoners could be part of this too with baning (4 total but still extremely potent and low cd). Since regens do not stack anymore, imagine all of those dots ticking on you hard and having to use purify to get them off. One fester from each summoner and someone will pop instantly.

Also imagine 6 black mages with 2 healers moving in and each black mage casting fire 1 after astral fire 3 with a phantom dart rotation on each target. All it takes is 1 fire 1 from each to kill someone. Cool teamwork tho.

Imagine 8 dragoons running in and using a strenth potion with blood for blood and internal release and their +crit pvp ability with dragonfire dive + aoe.

All of these combos will wipe a group who stacks in the middle of a base or take them down so fast they wont know what hit them. Holy is not the only ability that can do this. It's called teamwork. When people abuse these mechanics they are forming a team to do it on purpose, a PUG would never do this (or from my experience they wouldn't).

At this rate let's nerf every class!

What I'm trying to get at is, frontlines allows 24 people on one alliance. The number of abilities it takes to kill someone is not that much with the damage output DPS can do. Frontlines is definitely imbalanced as a whole. Good teamwork makes it just way too easy to rip apart groups in no time and there will be nothing healers can do. Here are some of my personal opinions on the PvP in this game tho that need some fixing...

- Reduce all damage dealt, and all healing done by 50% in frontlines. This is basically doubling the persons health pool, making it so you don't pop in one second when focus fired. This has happened to me vs many premade teams because they are using voice chats to discuss who to burn down next, etc. All it takes is 4 dps and you will die in 3 seconds with the amount of off GCD abilities in PvP.

- Reduce Fetter Wards duration by 50%, reduce its cooldown by 50%. I feel like this ability lasts way too long. A good plus side for reducing the duration is to reduce the cooldown by the same amount.

- Remove baseline skill Raise and Ressurection from Whitemage and Scholar. Only keep the PvP raise in the game for PvP only.

- Increase the cooldown of fluid aura. This ability just seems too powerful on white mage for such a short cooldown. Don't know if it's just me, but I feel that way.

- Bring back Cleric Stance. I am all for cleric stance. I feel like it introduced a fun style of play for healers in this games PvP. If anything, increase the recast on it by 10 seconds to make them suffer longer for popping it. Also, this should effect the fairys healing as well.

Those are my ideas. Most are harsh, but it would make things more interesting imo.

Fine you can have cleric stance back.......

BUT REMOVE RAISE RAISE IS BY FAR THE STUPIDEST THING TO HAVE IN PVP.

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Originally Posted by Slib

Yes you can, when being forced into Shield Oath would nerf your damage by 20% flat, and not have the extra auto attack damage. The OP is saying to force tanks into their defensive stance since they are tanks and not DPS. Just like how healers were forced to not use cleric stance to apply DPS since they want us to just heal.

Edit: Also, you having a GCD on it makes you able to take it off or change them right away. The penalty for cleric stance is a 5 second downtime of being able to take it off, which is very dangerous if you incorrectly use it. I could see something like 10 seconds instead of 5 on the recast tho.

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And that is exactly why the OP's black and white view and "remedy" to this non-problem shouldn't be taken seriously, or even considered.

They removed CS from WHM/SCH because it was broken and undeniably game breaking. Something that a PLD/WAR in Sword Oath is far from being.

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Originally Posted by Dererk

Fine you can have cleric stance back.......

BUT REMOVE RAISE RAISE IS BY FAR THE STUPIDEST THING TO HAVE IN PVP.

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I dunno, having to run from the main base all the way back to the fight because some dragoon used his limit break and instakilled you is pretty stupid (yes you can use VIT gear but the fact you need to use VIT gear to avoid getting one shot is idiotic itself).

With CS you should have 2 healers in the PT maybe, but since we can be so much healer
Just remember 5 WHMs in CS spam Holy XD.
also have a WHM doing Holy in CS is as good than any BLM (exept you cannot get so much mana back)
Tank don't have equal DPS than a true DPS, even when war is bursting and make pretty high damage, when he don't burst he can't be as damaging than a other melee, he still weaker.
Even if CS got back, it's still unbalanced how the dps from healer can match a dps one.
when healer was with CS, we don't see tank compleaining about how a healer have a better dps than my war or pld.
Well i think if CS got back it still need to get a nerf anyway to be balanced ?

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Originally Posted by Slib

Yes you can, when being forced into Shield Oath would nerf your damage by 20% flat, and not have the extra auto attack damage. The OP is saying to force tanks into their defensive stance since they are tanks and not DPS. Just like how healers were forced to not use cleric stance to apply DPS since they want us to just heal.

Edit: Also, you having a GCD on it makes you able to take it off or change them right away. The penalty for cleric stance is a 5 second downtime of being able to take it off, which is very dangerous if you incorrectly use it. I could see something like 10 seconds instead of 5 on the recast tho.

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The problem is they aren't tanks in pvp, they only tank in pve. Shield oath and defiance exist because tanks primary role is to hold agro for the group. In pvp they can't hold agro, in fact they are the last to be killed in pvp. Its usually healers ---> dps then WAR/PLD.

So if they would force them into shield oath/defiance then they would have to change it so they can make players target them by force. Other wise the change would be detrimental to the archetype. Realistically speaking, WAR/PLD have the least defining role in pvp. You need healers for sustain, you need dps to kill stuff. But WAR/PLD only provide thrill of war, mythril tempest, cover and testudo. Due to their long cooldowns their impact is minimum and inconsistent.

In mmorpgs pvp is always the same, healers are the tanks. They are the first targets so they have to be very durable to withstand being trained by dps. So with cleric stance healers were performing three roles at once: tank, dps and healing. Something had to give.

Domira- Tanks should be the ones essential to locking down healers so dps can kill. But how SE has implemented degradation on CC and immunity, this format won't work at all.

To deal with healer tankability, SE should fix their CC/debuff degradation and have better healing debuffs.

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Originally Posted by Domira

Interesting how the OP doesn't consider healers to be the "tanks" in pvp.

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thats what i meant by being skilled if we use cleric stance or its deadly. Our tanking abilities (apart from the occasional attunement) are nothing except for our heals (on ourselves), and the extensive running. Basically, a healer is a tank with very low defence and no defensive cooldowns.
If a healer uses cleric stance while being focused by large numbers, it means death as he cannot heal himself.

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Originally Posted by AstralKaos

And that is exactly why the OP's black and white view and "remedy" to this non-problem shouldn't be taken seriously, or even considered.

They removed CS from WHM/SCH because it was broken and undeniably game breaking. Something that a PLD/WAR in Sword Oath is far from being.

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I'll just quote myself on that: "As i think all these ideas are terrible, if the decision is to keep the "cleric stance ban", then they would be fair. But just removing that ban would be easier, cheaper, and fair."

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Originally Posted by Domira

So with cleric stance healers were performing three roles at once: tank, dps and healing.

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And that is where you are mistaken. When in cleric stance, a healer loses all his healing power, and since his tanking power is directly linked to his healing, he loses it also. He becomes a dps and only a dps, a dps with "White Mage" or "Scholar" over his head that will make him target number one for the opposing team. Therefore he will be a vulnerable person, taking lots of damage. Thats why, while cleric stance was available, people rarely used it, and if they did they used it for a very short period. Also, about that holy spam problem, Bards do not give mana in pvp (they just don't feel like it, except for some special exceptions, or premade groups.) white mages have 2 different mana regenerating options, with very long cool downs. Holy is very expensive (over 500mp), a healer who abuses of it will have dealt damage, but will be utterly useless after that.

No I'm not mistaken, I meant what I said. And what I said makes sense. They were tank, healer and dps. It doesn't matter if cleric stance nerfed their healing power slightly. Why? Because it only really matters in pve. There are no classes/jobs who hit like raid bosses or dungeon mobs. So even in cleric stance they could heal through the tiny amounts of damage players do in comparison. Yes yes, if you add more players it became more difficult. But then you would see more healers stacked in one group to make up for it.

Not even the strongest dps class would be able to effectively kill a healer with cleric stance, they have no sustain to do so. And like Khonrath mentioned (which is ultra important btw) cc is nerfed because of duration, immunities further make it difficult and healing debuffs are weak. This makes locking down a healer very difficult and next to impossible.

The game isn't like guild wars 2, each class is not suppose to be self sustaining. With cleric stance healers became just that, while that type of design can fit in gw2. It does not fit well in ffxiv since no other class is built like that

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Originally Posted by Domira

Not even the strongest dps class would be able to effectively kill a healer with cleric stance

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It seems like you have never played healer in pvp before, would it be wolves den or front lines, or even in pve for that matter if you would even consider healing yourself with cleric stance up.when a DRG double crits you with a combined damage of 2.9k instantly (GCD and offGCD attacks), reminder that without the vitality buff from having a tank in your party and without any vitality whatsoever (accessories or attributes), you have 3670hp, 2.9k is a lot.

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Originally Posted by Domira

they have no sustain to do so.

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You don't want sustain damage in pvp, you want BIG bursts and thats it.

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Originally Posted by Stylelink

I

You don't want sustain damage in pvp, you want BIG bursts and thats it.

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I'm not talking about sustain damage, I'm talking about longevity. In other words the ability to keep yourself alive through health replenishing.

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Originally Posted by Domira

The problem is they aren't tanks in pvp, they only tank in pve...

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This is a good point. They also have insane damage reduction cooldowns which is why noone would focus them.

Also, focusing healers down is doing it wrong. You are better off CCing healers and burning the DPS down to relieve pressure off your own healers if they are getting ganked. DPS go down a lot easier.

Anyway, back to tanks, the tanks are too powerful with having cooldowns to make them survive better, while putting out insane damage and stuns. I say this for paladins. I have a paladin friend that I run with and his damage comes out on the top over 100k easily in a normal duration match (12 minutes or so). Having the ability to freely run in knowing you won't get picked off makes them very powerful and paladins mass amount of stuns make them extremely powerful. They also have the longest stun in the game. So yeah, I don't see why they shouldn't be forced into tank stance. Most of the paladins you probably see are ones that just spam rage of halone on a healer. I have encountered paladins attacking me like this more often than not sadly.

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Originally Posted by Stylelink

thats what i meant by being skilled if we use cleric stance or its deadly. Our tanking abilities (apart from the occasional attunement) are nothing except for our heals (on ourselves), and the extensive running. Basically, a healer is a tank with very low defence and no defensive cooldowns.
If a healer uses cleric stance while being focused by large numbers, it means death as he cannot heal himself.

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^ this exactly. That is why I said nerfing cleric stance recast for PvP would be better. If you had 10 second downtime of healing effectively, this would make using cleric stance harder, but at least you can choose to.

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Originally Posted by Stylelink

I'll just quote myself on that: "As i think all these ideas are terrible, if the decision is to keep the "cleric stance ban", then they would be fair. But just removing that ban would be easier, cheaper, and fair."

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No, what would be easier, cheaper and fair is leaving it as it is.

And sorry, but you have zero credibility or right to talk about skill when you're advocating the use and return of CS, a skill that turns you into a broken trifecta of unbalance. Nor do you have the right to be telling people they have no idea, or that they "must never have healed in PvP" based on that too. Have you ever played a non-healer role against a semi-competent team with a CS healer in WD, or a squad of them on a flag in FL? If you did, and had any idea what balance is, you wouldn't be preaching the return of that mess.

Once more, it's okay as it is, more balancing could be done for all classes and such, but right now, it's the most balanced it's ever been.

Unless they restrict jobs in some way this will never be allowed back. Just like they are probably never going to undo the BLM swift cast nerf. When you ask for something you need to ask how is the player base going to abuse this. I have been in and 8 man whm CS party it was pure win. We didn't even bother casting multiple regens flag holy for the melee and then focused down the range after.

Second after you figure out how the player base is going to abuse it. Then you have to decide if random pugs will have enough skill and coordination. Which generally is a no for most extremes. So this is why you can't have nice things. If it was in a ranked premade system then you could argue the other teams need to cope. But in a pug system (where you see some bad players) it doesn't work.

I would love to have it back for 16s and 8s or for when the other teams stack 4 healers and i could get energy drain off to help burn that first healer down. But I understand why we can't have nice things.

Give 1 melee class an outgoing heal debuff. BOOM, I just justified the return on CS, powered down healer tankability, and allowed healers the ability to perform a DPS function when needed. Damn I'm good.

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Originally Posted by Khonrath

Give 1 melee class an outgoing heal debuff. BOOM, I just justified the return on CS, powered down healer tankability, and allowed healers the ability to perform a DPS function when needed. Damn I'm good.

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War and Nin already have this :x

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Originally Posted by Hollowed

War and Nin already have this :x

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Warrior: Storms eye is incoming, not outgoing.
Ninja: Dancing edge is incoming, not outgoing.

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Originally Posted by Khonrath

Warrior: Storms eye is incoming, not outgoing.
Ninja: Dancing edge is incoming, not outgoing.

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Ohhhhhhhh misread that then XD

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Originally Posted by Sessurea

healers generally ruin pvp, I think removing cleric stance is the very least they should have done xD

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Say what?


So you are fine with playing as an entire alliance without a single healer?

I don't even...

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Originally Posted by Slib

24v24v24 ruined PvP, AKA Frontlines. Wolves Den felt a lot more balanced than Frontlines.

The fact that you can have any amount of healers in a group breaks it. They should limit it to two per group. Not really sure why they haven't done this yet...

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They didn't do this yet b/c it would break the queues. Right now, it's the First 24 from each GC=entry...whether it's 24 NIN's on one side..the queue line could care less. Furthermore, since you can switch your role in FL's without waiting on CD's/being locked upon entry, it would also screw up this mechanic. So basically, the way they set up both HOW we queue and by allowing job changing within the battle, it sets up a messy situation where they can't limit class stacking (ANY class stacking btw).

Tanks are not "JUST TANKS", their description is DPS TANKER.

Cleric stance in PvP is problematic because of how it was designed. Because is switches Int and Mind instead of being a +20% damage -20% healing buff, it basically makes it so that both the Int and Mind of a WHM or SCH are maxed when they wear only Mind gear.

Combine that with attack abilities that are either on nearly par with rDpS abilities (WhM) or shared with an rDpS (Sch) and you get 2 classes which are both DpS and Healer at the same time. The difference between a SCH and SMN was pretty much a choice between 2 attack spells with a dps pet and 6 healing spells with a healing pet

Tanks on the other hand must make sacrifices to be effective dps by giving up survivability for damage and they still fall slightly behind on DpS when compared to mDpS due to their weaker attacks. Yes, they can hit 100k damage dealt in a good match, but a well played mDpS can get totals two to two and a half times that.

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Originally Posted by Atreus

The funny thing is, you're pulling out the "stupid" and "retard" when everything you've said in this thread so far is dumber than what the guy who doesn't even PvP has said (for the record Valmar, you are correct, I'm not calling you dumb at all).

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Ohh none Taken, I really know just about Zero in PvP.

But If I'm not mistaken Cleric Stance was taken out from PvP due to the Abuse in Frontlines, and the Unbalance it created in Wolves Den, right?

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Originally Posted by Stylelink

thats what i meant by being skilled if we use cleric stance or its deadly. Our tanking abilities (apart from the occasional attunement) are nothing except for our heals (on ourselves), and the extensive running. Basically, a healer is a tank with very low defence and no defensive cooldowns.
If a healer uses cleric stance while being focused by large numbers, it means death as he cannot heal himself.

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Benidiction, Lustrate.

Boom.

As someone that queues up as a scholar and a white mage for frontlines on occasion, I honestly can't advocate the return of cleric stance. It basically allowed healers to deal out incredible amounts of damage while having a minimal effect on their heals, especially if they had cast med 2 or regen beforehand. With 8 person Holy spam? "Good bye, go away we don't want you attacking us, good day." I actually enjoy frontlines as a healer more without it. If you want to deal damage so bad, be a DPS.

reg and medica 2 stack twice afaik, and im also sure WD stacks with WHM abilities

Heals can not have cleric back, I play healer 90% of the time and it would be tooo OP.

On sch I could wreck it up without an issue, my ruins and EDs critted 70-80% time so that plus DOTs is ridiculous. Then whenever it got a little tight I just used rouse and attunement, lol for a bit while derp dps watch as their wasted CDs tick off, rinse and repeat.

WHM
DS, reg medica 2, swift stone, "noooo youre too close, SC holy ^^" actually where are you running fluid aura, sleep stone, lol

My point is heals can not have CS back, it is sooooo unbalanced, however I do think self sustain abilities like second wind need to be toned down a little in FLs.

My vote is to leave CS in and put a healer stacking debuff where heals get diminishing returns based on how many different sources cast heals on you or based on how many are in your party.

Spider healing is really bad for any PVP game because stalemates are awful and CC has DR whereas heals do not which makes it difficult without voice comms to "alpha strike" people down.

Healers doing DPS = great. Stacking up heals for spider tanking = awful. Fix the actual problem instead of making healing in PVP boring and one dimensional.

And related to the other thread re: tanks - fix tanks by giving them better buff stripping and heal debuff abilities and put a snare on shield lob/tomahawk. Done & done.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Cleric stance in PvP is problematic because of how it was designed. Because is switches Int and Mind instead of being a +20% damage -20% healing buff, it basically makes it so that both the Int and Mind of a WHM or SCH are maxed when they wear only Mind gear.

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Agree!! :)
In FFXIV they designed healers able to ear a DPS support when the party is fine in PvE, so to let them useful they gave them a huge buff for their DPS, because they main role in a hard duty is still healing and they can DPS only for few time.
In PvP this make them totally unbalanced because they can really swap between DPS and Healer at their choice and there isn't any limitation to the healers in the party (I hope they will never implement it).
So in my opinion it would be fine if SE provide to change CS for PvP, not just remove it, because DPS support for a healer in FFXIV is something related to the healer role (and in my opinion make them really funny to play), but just balance it.
Following your elucidation, something like "CS increase the INT by 50% and lower MIND by 50%" would be great, so if you want do be more agressive wearing DPS jewels you will pay with a lower mind and anyway you want be able to reach the same damage output of a DPS.
Or just implement some of the CS nerf proposed by other players, balance it, don't just ignore a part of a role :/

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The difference between a SCH and SMN was pretty much a choice between 2 attack spells with a dps pet and 6 healing spells with a healing pet

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I want to point a thing that I saw, maybe I'm wong but let's see :D
I saw a lot of times SMNs with huge DPS in FL, and usually they are the TOP dps of all the FL.
I tried it, and I used bane a lot, in the final result I was the top DPS, but with only 2 kills, the other SMN in my party did 20k damage less then me but got 9 kills, in my opinion the skill that make the SMN a real killer is Fester (I'm talking about party fight, not 1vs1 or 1vs2, here the DoT can really easy kill!).
So I wouldn't complain too much if SCH and SMN seems to have almost the same skill.
Is like sayinf that THM and BLM has almost the same skills, so they really hit hard with AoEs (THM hasn't Flare :P)

Ah even if I support CS for PvP (Expecially for WD, where it didn't broke the game at all), I don't agree with a lot of other players that want CS too but don't realize how it was unbalanced before, or that healer are almost the tank in pvp, or worst than all "Why did they removed CS and not Defiance or Sword Oath", I know how you feel as healer, but it isn't paragonable at all, tank can't "tank" in PvP (they decided to ignore the possibility to use enmity for force a target, so they can't tank), and also it is more a debuff removal than a huge buff like CS and them are not able to heavy heal and Heavy DPS as an healer with CS can do.