No More Classes?

Classes were the only part of the armory system that was kept from the old game. The thing is THEY DID NOTHING TO MAKE CLASSES VIABLE END GAME! That pisses me off more then anything else. Infact i game here to bitch and complain about that when I saw this post so i thought i would leave my two cents here instead of starting a whole new post about relatively the same subject matter. I have all this gear that says arc/brd thf/nin pug/mnk and it is all END GAME GEAR.

So why the fuck are my classes not END GAME VIABLE! whats the point of having this gear if at no point ever its going to be of any use to my classes because you destroyed what was actually the only good thing about FFXIV 1.0. The ability to use skills from all other classes and the option of using latent abilities (aka traits) from other classes as well. Infact it almost seems to punish you for WANTING to play a class. Oh...you wanna be a thief not a ninja...well fuck you no combat stealth you are now considered worthless. Oh you want to play a archer instead of a bard oh...let me drop your dex cap down by 30 and not give you anything to make up for it. I personally think they are taking a part of the game that would add so much diversity to tactics and custom builds for classes as opposed to the more cookie cutter jobs.

They are killing the original idea behind the class system. Thanks for trying your best yoshi, but i guess appeasing cry babies by making things easier is much more of a focus then building a game that has any debt to it at all. The gear system is already pointless because every update things get easier so me doing it the hard way made it all for nothing cause some one else can do it later at easy mode and feel special. I think at this point he really needs to talk to the devs about a way to start pleasing the Hardcore gamers as well as the casuals cause right now all i see is pandering to those who werent around when this game was a heaping pile of garbage and still supported because the system had so much potential for greatness. FIX THE FUCKING CLASS SYSTEM!

[QUOTE=Kuwagami;2669146
as I said, I didn't implied you can't. Just that it's pointless and useless, while removing a lot of utility in most cases, and even removing every single bit of utility you may have in the worst case (being gladiator). and btw, archer is the only one not being THAT hindered by removing the job crystal (apart from the stat loss) in their dps if you aren't going to sing anyway. [/QUOTE]

I agree with you and thats the problem. They need to MAKE classes VIABLE as end game. By either reducing the drop off in stats from not being a job or allowing MORE access to other cla ss skills and traits. Like taking lancer to 20 in 1.0 so you could get the trait of running faster with weapon out. Or Taking gld up so you could get the block skill for healer. All these things were possible in 1.0 and out of all the things they changed I think this is the problem. THEY DIDNT NEED TO CHANGE THE CLASS SYSTEM! It was fine...

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Geez, It didnt stop me from clearing all the 2nd coil. Also, its my choice to play a class and not a job and theres nothing anyone can do about it in my PF. Songs are useless if no one needs them, with everyone being over gear for contant now having songs wasnt important to my group. The main point is it CAN be done. I wouldnt do it with any hard core people because most of them cant think out side the box but in a pre-made party it works. It was a experiment and it worked for us. Sorry if you dont like it. ps: I suffered very little DPS lose to the point it didnt matter. 1% dps didnt kill our chances of winning any battles.
The fact is people just HATE classes. Thats my opinion.

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More fact as opposed to opinion at this point...imo.

Am I the only one that sees, "doing away with classes" and thinks, "GREAT, now the jobs are going to be more linear than they are..."? The class system is one of the only things currently in the game that can give our characters a snows balls chance in hell in the future of seeing any kind of horizontal progression we have all hoped for for a while now.

The choice words that comes to mind when I see "doing away with classes" is vertical, same, unoriginal.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

I played Archer in game Coil 1 and 2 via DF (I know pissed a lot of peolpe off) at item lv 114 I saw very little stat drop off...maybe 1%. With the added skills I could carry Rasie and quick cast,virus and others it came in handy in many battles with two Whms without virus. I havn't tried Coil 3 yet, I doubt anyones going to let me play Archer outside of PF. Archer seems to be a very good class to mix and match on for skills with its built in high mana.

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I mentioned Bards because they have Mage's Ballad to regain the party's MP.
Also, I don't think Raise would be very good on an Archer, seeing as they can't use it during battle (needs a Conjurer's trait for that).

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

I mentioned Bards because they have Mage's Ballad to regain the party's MP.
Also, I don't think Raise would be very good on an Archer, seeing as they can't use it during battle (needs a Conjurer's trait for that).

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Raise needs this trait, but Ressurrect doesn't. Maybe it was just for shorten things... Maybe...

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Originally Posted by Roxas_Andrade

Raise needs this trait, but Ressurrect doesn't. Maybe it was just for shorten things... Maybe...

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Resurrect isn't a cross class skill though... >3>

It does kind of make you wonder why Raise is. Out of combat raising isn't really all that useful except for wandering the land and helping random people.

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Originally Posted by Mirron

It does kind of make you wonder why Raise is. Out of combat raising isn't really all that useful except for wandering the land and helping random people.

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Probably because Conjurer didn't have anything else to cross-class that wouldn't have been too powerful or mandatory to have.

It's not like all classes have the same level of cross-classing though.

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Originally Posted by EliseDee

So why the fuck are my classes not END GAME VIABLE! whats the point of having this gear ....

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You want to know the point? RETAINERS. They have no JOBS. though if they do get rid of the useless class system in 3.0; that will change hopefully. My smn has i90 gear, my retainer is arcanist but can't wear it as the i90 gear she has was SMN only; and building up the crafted stuff is a pain while trying to gear out nin, brd and sch. the gear that lists classes, is completely for the purpose of using as retainer gear after your done with it

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Originally Posted by Asheilin

You want to know the point? RETAINERS. They have no JOBS. though if they do get rid of the useless class system in 3.0; that will change hopefully. My smn has i90 gear, my retainer is arcanist but can't wear it as the i90 gear she has was SMN only; and building up the crafted stuff is a pain while trying to gear out nin, brd and sch. the gear that lists classes, is completely for the purpose of using as retainer gear after your done with it

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Keeping gear is also good for when new classes/jobs come out. >3>
It's also good for making money with via converting into materia.

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Originally Posted by Mimilu

Keeping gear is also good for when new classes/jobs come out. >3>
It's also good for making money with via converting into materia.

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lol yeah; but the main reason end game gear has classes on it isn't either of those; and thats what the other poster was talking about :)

If they do away with the current classes, they will need to:

1. Implement new skills for either Scholar or Summoner and pass the current ACN skills to one of them
2. Implement a "provoke" type skill to the Warrior, as Provoke would no long be a Gladiator skill, but a Paladin skill.
3. if not the above, implement a different cross job skill system instead.

What's likely (or what requires less work on the developers) is just leaving the current classes as they are and implementing jobs with the new system.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

I played Archer in game Coil 1 and 2 via DF (I know pissed a lot of peolpe off) at item lv 114 I saw very little stat drop off...maybe 1%. With the added skills I could carry Rasie and quick cast,virus and others it came in handy in many battles with two Whms without virus. I havn't tried Coil 3 yet, I doubt anyones going to let me play Archer outside of PF. Archer seems to be a very good class to mix and match on for skills with its built in high mana.

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BS, Raise is a skill that can only be used outside a battle unless you're a lv28+ CNJ.

I believe the current battle system we have now is gonna be changed to fit the current class/job system and the new job only system. Saying this, I believe 3.0 will bring as much as 2.0 did, so expect the game as we know it now to be changed.

Also, I have a ALT that is a bard, and without playing archer, by playing bard right, foe requiem + battlevoice, not to mention the stat decrease. I would notice a good percent of overall DPS lost.

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Originally Posted by IshidaTsukuyomi

I believe the current battle system we have now is gonna be changed to fit the current class/job system and the new job only system. Saying this, I believe 3.0 will bring as much as 2.0 did, so expect the game as we know it now to be changed.
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I don't think so. They kinda cancelled the game on 1.0 and released a new game on 2.0. In the expansion 3.0, the old content has to be available to everyone who didn't buy the expansion, right? And people with the expansion and the people without it should be able to interact amongst themselves...
My guess is that there will be new content, and even changes in some of the old content, but it's gonna still be the same game.

The only reasonable time to use a class instead of a job is Marauder in PvP because you can stack ridiculous CDs on it and just decimate casters - my favorite thing was holmganging for a butcher's block then tomahawking casters to death in 4 strokes with 1200+ crits in wolves den : D

Also, a 1% DPS loss as an archer vs a brd? Duh, BRD doesn't get any dps skills from their job abilities. But guess what, its the worst DPS to start because it has songs that increase survivability or DPS of other jobs (foes, TP, MP). So you took the worst dps job, made it slightly worse in dps, and then took away anything redeeming about the job for a penitence of skills that can be easily covered by a litany of other jobs. It didn't "work" for your group; you got carried. Sorry to be mean but you are being thick-headed. Class are useless. Just switch to jobs and make it so you get cross-job abilities starting at level 30.

Sorry Ehyte,You're wrong. I've Already cleared these fights. I wanted to see how a class would do and how it would work out. It worked me and us. I'll NEVER only use only JOBS, so get use to them being in the game. There's NOTHING in the "End User Agreement" of this game thats says "you must play a Job" Over bearing End game Players Invented the JOB only rule. Explain why End game items can be used by both Arch/Bard? Bards songs are worhtless if you dont need to use them. I didnt need them in any battle. In the End, I proved my point, "You can use a class in End game" " If classes were to gain Job like status and their own skills they could have a end game prensce, as it stand now, Yes classes suck in End-game. Mostly due to unfairness of the Job gems. Let classes go on to have to be their own JOB. Give players a choice

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Sorry Ehyte,You're wrong.... It worked me and us. I'll NEVER only use only JOBS, so get use to them being in the game......Bards songs are worhtless.... I didnt need them in any battle. .... as it stand now, Yes classes suck in End-game.

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A. I believe you that you cleared. People can clear T9 with 7 or less people now.

B. The hell are you on, dude?

It "worked" for you like it "works" that people kill themselves immediately for a carry in T9. You got Internal Release and lost some dex. I don't need to explain why armor can be used by BRD and ACR because its totally irrelevant. Archer is pathetic compared to a BRD from a pure power perspective. Why do you think they aren't using classes for the new jobs? Every job crystal makes every class much better. Your group didn't "need" songs because they were over-geared as hell for the content, and you probably had echo.

There isn't a good reason other than fun or lore or being weird that you would use any class over its job.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

A. I believe you that you cleared. People can clear T9 with 7 or less people now.

B. The hell are you on, dude?


There isn't a good reason other than fun or lore or being weird that you would use any class over its job.

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You're just a dirty Endgamer. You hate everyone else. You don't want other players to have free will or Choice. Why you wanna kill my game and choices I've made? I dont mess with your stuff. I have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to choice. Thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

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oh come on we got an other strawman champion here.

what he said is that classes are useless at best and gave you the reasons why you would bring a class over a job (which is stupid after lv 30 for all except bard and BLM, and damn right stupid for all at lv50 except marauder in PvP).

Also :
=> your "choices" are a result of a relic system which could have been abandoned altogether given more time considering the fact that classes are damn straight useless. The ONLY reason classes are still here is lore.

=> if devs get rid of classes and modify the lore, you'll have nothing to say against it. Leave the game or live with it. 2 options. (not that they will do it. But imo they won't ever implement new classes again)

side note : let your god out of that thanks. The choice you have was given by devs.

I've always seen classes as more of a lore thing than a mechanical thing. Classes like lancer and conjurer are reasonably common in the world, but dragoons and white mages are the stuff of heroes. It makes sense for your novice level 1 character to start with a class and eventually promote. That the job overlaps the class rather than just overwriting it makes little practical difference... with only a couple rare exceptions you take your job at level 30 and stick with it forever.

The new jobs not having a class implies that they're advanced jobs that novice adventurers, as common folk, simply do not have access to. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Though if they do overhaul the entire system I would be very curious to see how they go about it.

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Originally Posted by Viviza

I've always seen classes as more of a lore thing than a mechanical thing. Classes like lancer and conjurer are reasonably common in the world, but dragoons and white mages are the stuff of heroes. It makes sense for your novice level 1 character to start with a class and eventually promote. That the job overlaps the class rather than just overwriting it makes little practical difference... with only a couple rare exceptions you take your job at level 30 and stick with it forever.

The new jobs not having a class implies that they're advanced jobs that novice adventurers, as common folk, simply do not have access to. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Though if they do overhaul the entire system I would be very curious to see how they go about it.

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This is the most legitimate post I have ever read regarding the necessity for Classes in the game.

On the other hand, I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding how "removing classes" would functionally work. Honestly, removing classes is a simple as a name change. You wouldn't even have to change the quests or story lines outside of a few minor wording changes. Some Class -> Job scenarios are actually enhanced by the lore such as Lancer -> Dragoon because of the lore of what a DRG is. However, that being said, if they did away with Classes they wouldn't have to change the name of the Lancer's Guild. The terminology doesn't change the function. "A rose by any other name would still smell as sweet."

Also, if they did away with the Class system you wouldn't get rid of the class and all its abilities to be reduced to whatever 7 skills the Jobs add. They would simply add the Jobs skills to the, what is now, the Class list and just remove the second menu. You would still have all the same skills. Its really not that complicated. From there Cross Classing would work exactly the same it does now except your cross classing would be even more restricted. Instead of having unlimited access from 1-30 you would have the same limited access you do post 30 with the job crystal. The only problem with that is for new players. Sometimes having quick and easy access to some low level abilities from other classes is really useful such as the Raging Strikes -> Blood for Blood. Blood for Blood is hard to use in solo content. Raging Strikes gives a similar buff without the downside and makes solo content for new players and low levels easier. It also requires fewer levels in ARC to get Raging Strikes than the 30+ levels that are required for Blood for Blood. There is no clear justification to allow Cross Classing Raging Strikes prior to 30 and then remove it at 30. The Job Crystals justify that change and in exchange for fewer skills you get a stat buff. If you didn't get a stat buff then why use the Job Crystal at all?

TL;DR- The Classes aren't useful, their purpose is served for the easy transition of new players and leveling new classes for vets. Removing them would only hurt low levels. Removing them would not change the way the game plays at max levels, like at all.

Agreed that it could be as simple as rolling the class into the job, but they might take liberty to do more.

The cross-class systems as it stands is a little anemic. It works, yes, but it's not terribly interesting. On the other hand it's pretty easy to balance.

The class/job system in this game is messy and, more importantly, pointless. Just like the crappy attribute system, the cross class system is nothing more than an illusion of choice.

They would be better off doing away with the system, IMO.

Class system is a broken mess, classes are a straight downgrade in almost ever aspect and are only useful in 2 situations. Soloing early lvs and Mrd in pvp. Anyone that uses a class at lv50 and us not joking around is only fooling themselves with their illusion of choice and immersion, ermagod i hate songs archer4life. Class and jobs are two systems laid on top of each other and at times is very confusing, ever try to explain how jobs work to someone brand new or that doesn't play?

Classes are an obvious holdover from 1.0 and was too engrained to remove going into 2.0. I can see why a game dev would want to remove classes, the are counter intuitive, they make balancing difficult and lower room for devs to expand the game while also giving players this illusion of choice and "freedom". Theres no doubt that classes can be removed, really the question at this point is it worth the trouble and resources to change it? People will complain things are neing taken away even if its mostly useless. Classes are pretty built into lore and quests would need alot of changes in some cases completely changed or altered to mention that player has always been x job but studying with x class. Hardly impossible changes but no one but SE knows if they want to comit time to redoing things that are done.

Path of least resistance is just mostly leave classes alone and make all future content basiclly ignore them. Then classes for most part are just to serve as a pool for jobs to cross set abilities from.

Ok, so Red Mage didn't quite work because they were "ok" at both Black (Thaum) and White (Conj.) Magic. That class would work well without a Base class because it doesn't fit well into the 30/15 rubric.

Blue Mage is sort of a Variant of Red Mage:
Sword? Colored robes? Magic? Check All

Blue Mage could benefit from this Class-Free Basis.
A Blue Mage should work like a Crafter/Gatherer, like a Fisher in a Sense, by Observing/Experiencing Powers/Attacks and Recording learned Monster Powers in their "Observation Logs". These could Progress using the Desynth % and Level Tables.

Certain Fates, Dungeon Bosses, and Hunt monsters would be listed as "Green" or even "Blue" Recipes/Catches, following the Four Star System.

Blue Mage would use Actions & Traits: Additional and fill the 10 slots (1 slot/5 levels) with whatever monster powers they had learned, supplementing base Job powers (Like Scan and Stealth).

This isn't really a job suggestion thread.

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

You're just a dirty Endgamer. You hate everyone else. You don't want other players to have free will or Choice. Why you wanna kill my game and choices I've made? I dont mess with your stuff. I have a GOD GIVEN RIGHT to choice. Thank you very much.

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Nice. Looking @ the time of your post - Happy New Year to you, too. Sorry I totally forgot about this tread until right now.

- Yes I play endgame. So that would mean I'm probably fairly informed about issues such as END GAME.
- I don't hate everyone else. That's ridiculous.
- I do want others to have free will and choice. That would make me happy. What I don't want is for people to think that Bard songs are useless or that Archer is as good as Bard. Because its not.
- I don't want to kill your game, I'm just telling you that by not using your soul crystal you are a putting a heavier workload on others, or you are doing content with a much higher iLVL than was intended. Foe Requiem would increase your group's DPS without decreasing your own, for example.
- You are messing with my stuff in that you are spreading idiocy in the community in which I am a participant.
- God doesn't exist, in my opinion.
- You're welcome.

Good troll, good troll.

Hi Ehayte happy new year. No troll here, I still use classes and will NEVER stop using them. Playing outside of DFs or raids you really dont need songs. I never play with other peolpe who hates classes. Endgame in my eyes means nothing (now on t10, for fun), its only a small part of the game. Anyway, we differtant ideas and stuff, I dont dislike you. Have a good a day.
I play Archer ,Mard and Glad at this time. Having fun!!

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Originally Posted by FranSeara

Hi Ehayte happy new year. No troll here, I still use classes and will NEVER stop using them. Playing outside of DFs or raids you really dont need songs. I never play with other peolpe who hates classes. Endgame in my eyes means nothing (now on t10, for fun), its only a small part of the game. Anyway, we differtant ideas and stuff, I dont dislike you. Have a good a day.
I play Archer ,Mard and Glad at this time. Having fun!!

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That is a great and valid post. I only had an issue with you saying Archer was just as valid as BRD in current end game, which you alluded to previously. Continue to have fun and do what you want to do.

I am late to this thread but I like the current class/job system. It allows for more flexibility and makes perfect sense. I believe at some point they will add more classes to provide diversity to the current and new job pool. I don't see why the system needs to be done away with.

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

That is a great and valid post. I only had an issue with you saying Archer was just as valid as BRD in current end game, which you alluded to previously. Continue to have fun and do what you want to do.

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Yeap, Archer cant replace Bard in endgame stuff. Mainly due to reason many peolpe want those songs. With songs not being a issue (say two Bards) I found that playing Archer in endgame is not be so bad ( the extra skills you can carry dont make up for songs) but you can still be very helpful with many other skills. It was something I messed around with 1 day in PF. Cleared up to t9 on Archer with PF team. Enjoy the new patch!

My issue with removing classes is the lore aspect of it.

Almost all of the jobs, in-universe, are INCREDIBLY rare. For example: lore-wise, thaumaturges and black mages are very different. If we started off the game as a black mage instead of a thaumaturge, it'd feel too weird. We had to work to become a BLM. It was special. If they removed the idea of classes, someone would be starting the game off at the THM guild and they'd be like, "Hey, new adventurer. Take this super powerful and rare soul crystal and become a black mage!"

I'm not saying they're going to remove the previously established classes, but do you get my point?

I can imagine Astrologian and Machinist not having an issue with this, since Astrologians seem as common in Ishgard as Thaumaturges are to Ul'dah and Machinist doesn't sound like it'd be particularly unique or mystical. It'd be fine to start the game off as one of them. But Dark Knight? In past FFs those have always been pretty rare and a big deal, so I can't imagine just anyone can become one, lore-wise - especially a new adventurer at level 1 (or 10, in case they decide to go the same route as Rogue).

Personally, I do enjoy the idea of branching jobs off of existing classes (Geomancer from Conjurer, Dancer from Pugilist, Templar from Lancer, etc) for at least a couple more classes, but I don't think they all need a new job.

The lore aspect is one the big reasons why I don't think SE would remove current classes even though mechanics wise it would make sense to remove them. Though the jobs being rare doesn't really hold water since almost every player is a job already, its just one of those "in a bubble" things have to accept for sake of making game playable. Msq already treats each player as your the only warrior of light, same logic is applied to jobs already as well in the case of things like whm.

If classes were removed from players I'm sure all npcs would remain as classes. Only lore appropriate way i can think to remove classes would be to retcon the player as always being X job and studying the basics at applicable guild before moving up to the real job quests.

I still think jobs were be left alone and just act as the pool were jobs pull extra abilities from in the future and no new classes will ever be added.

Most of the Jobs aren't actually one of a kind. They're more like lost/uncommon/elite arts. WAR and DRG for example are elite, but they're still made up of entire communities. The only special thing about DRG in particular is the Eye of the Dragoon, which sets one DRG apart from the others. All of the elder Seedseer's (Padjali) Even their relic weapons are seen being used as the standard arms for the Job.

I honestly think what one guy said way back in the beginning of this, that the class system would simply stop being really acknowledged, is pretty acceptable. It's useless, most everyone knows it, it's there, it's whatever.

The cross class abilities however are not useless, and I don't know why people are saying that. Removing a healer's ability to swiftcast would result in more than a few wipes. Granted, certain abilities are pretty standard for anyone who wants to remain relevant in a team setting, and if they can replace those with versions for each individual Job, that'd be acceptable, but I really don't see them wasting that much space on each Job's ability slots when it could be put to better use making each Job unique.

There are certain things every position in a party MUST have. Healers CANNOT do without a restorative spell, and a resurrecting spell. Having a pool of generally useful, but not necessary abilities that each Job can pull from cuts down on so much work for the dev's, as well as leaving your own Job a full roster of unique powers.

I like your class/job ideas. I think SE could still use the class system it just needs to be retooled for further usefulness. Like maybe the classes skills end at 30 and the job skills start at 30, but instead of only being issued every 5 levels make them a bit more frequent, and have class and job specific traits too.

I wasn't expecting to come back to this with all this discussion.

How is a Job without a class is supposed to work? Classes are the source of cross abilities. They could change it, but I like the idea that leveling one thing could potentially help something else.

Perhaps it is difficult to balance Summoner/Scholar, that might become easier as items in the game become more complex. At the very least, they would have more tools to tweak their effectiveness. It would be an error to abandon the idea of multiple jobs stemming from a class after 1 attempt.

I know this goes against a lot of what was done from the transition from 1.0 to 2.0, but I personally would like to see a little more variation. Just so it doesn't seem like all Bards are the same or all White Mages are the same, etc. I'm afraid if that if we move away from what classes are as a concept, we'll just see even more corralled gameplay in the future.