2.41 patch, Ninja nerf for the Ninjas and Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Ninja isn't supposed to be a burst DPS, I'm not sure why it feels like it is.

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Wtf . . . Says who?

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

dragoon don't have the top dps, normal, he do have the simple mechanic of all the melee dps. any error in the cycle of a monk or ninja can hit really hard your dps overall.
ninja don't have position recquierement, because the ninjutsu is hard enough with latency for not add this to the jobs.

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Sorry, but if Dragoon successfully pulling off Heavy Thrust/Chaos Thrust combo is "easy", then Ninja and Ninjutsu are just as easy, latency on Ninjutsu isn't that big of an issue. Nor is it even something that should be strongly considered in balancing content. Hitting three to four skills in a row is in no way difficult.

Hardest part of Ninjutsu is not readying Raiton or Suiton when mechanics are about to make it impossible to target the mob, and that isn't exactly rocket science...

There are literally too many assumptions regarding Ninja in this thread and many which show a lack of knowledge in regards to the job.

SE stated they are working on DRG (Which I agree with on the M. Def and lack of Utility). They also have more in house data to compare jobs and balance than an average player. The updates to MNK & WAR were well received and ppl's exaggerations ignored.

I just hope the same for upcoming patches. I truly don't want the past practice of XI balance to even remotely touch XIV.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Wtf . . . Says who?

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Says the person who doesn't know what DOTs and Poisons do.

Don't nerf NIN, buff DRG.

Bye.

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Originally Posted by coldreactive

Says the person who doesn't know what DOTs and Poisons do.

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having DoTs=/=not burst.
Every single class in the game has DoTs. If not having or having few DoTs is a qualification for being a burst damage class, the only ones that qualify are the tank classes.
Also poisons? Um, they're just a toggle that increases DPS by 20% and changes the effects of one of the ninja's abilities. They're what ninja get in place of the likes of greased lightning, heavy thrust, etc.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Sorry, but if Dragoon successfully pulling off Heavy Thrust/Chaos Thrust combo is "easy", then Ninja and Ninjutsu are just as easy, latency on Ninjutsu isn't that big of an issue. Nor is it even something that should be strongly considered in balancing content. Hitting three to four skills in a row is in no way difficult.

Hardest part of Ninjutsu is not readying Raiton or Suiton when mechanics are about to make it impossible to target the mob, and that isn't exactly rocket science...

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Heavy Thrust and Chaos Thrust have no dependency on latency if you miss them that is all on you. Latency on mudras on the other hand IS that big of an issue. They are very unresponsive, and varied in terms of speed. If they activated at one set speed it would be fine but they do not, it can go from really quick to really slow. Even Japanese players are complaining about it. Please do some research on the subject.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

Heavy Thrust and Chaos Thrust have no dependency on latency if you miss them that is all on you. Latency on mudras on the other hand IS that big of an issue. They are very unresponsive, and varied in terms of speed. If they activated at one set speed it would be fine but they do not, it can go from really quick to really slow. Even Japanese players are complaining about it. Please do some research on the subject.

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Latency on Mudra is an annoyance to me at best, it's hardly been wasting my Ninjutsu and destroying my damage.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Latency on Mudra is an annoyance to me at best, it's hardly been wasting my Ninjutsu and destroying my damage.

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No it does not destroy your dmg or cause you to waste your mudra (at least if you are paying attention), but that is like saying I have a broken pinky but I'm going to leave it like that cause its just an "annoyance". You can still function fine with a broken pinky but why would you want to leave it that way? Same situation here.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

No it does not destroy your dmg or cause you to waste your mudra (at least if you are paying attention), but that is like saying I have a broken pinky but I'm going to leave it like that cause its just an "annoyance". You can still function fine with a broken pinky but why would you want to leave it that way? Same situation here.

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Going "Ninjutsu is harder because latency!" and balancing it accordingly, is, to continue your metaphor, the same as going "Some of our players have broken pinkies so balance content around that".

The solution is to fix latency/get a new ISP, not to go "Some people play on dial up so we'll make Ninjutsu powerful, since they'll easily mess up a simple 3 skill combo".

Also, I disagree with this;

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Heavy Thrust and Chaos Thrust have no dependency on latency if you miss them that is all on you.

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"I have latency issues and Titan turned to do Landslide as I hit Impulse Drive". That's also why Dragoon #349 ate Landslide and fell off, by the way.

Heck, I don't see how Monk is hard given this... If Dragoon missing directionals is all on them, the same is true for Monk. At least when Monk misses, it's just a potency decrease (if that), not something which disrupts the flow of their rotation.

It doesn't even matter about latency when it comes to Dragoon and Monk. Fight mechanics can simply make it either impossible, or unfavourable, to meet directional requirements. It has always been that way, regardless of latency adding to the problem on occasion. The difference is Monk keeps going while Dragoon has to stop and try again. If I remember correctly, that's basically why Monk has always been favoured by players over Dragoon. If anything, Monk is easy, and Dragoon and Ninja are hard.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

-> Ninja adjustments, adding side and rear attacks or even combos. If adjustments have to be made, I'd honestly prefer, (And even want!) to see this, instead of just reducing the skills potency, it would be awesome to give the class the same skill that the other two need for dealing damage...

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Lol nope, Ninja is already the hardest DPS class in the game and wanting to make it even harder for the sake of "balance" is an absolute nonsense.

Btw, Monk is still the top DPS for single target and the damage difference between Ninja and Dragoon is minimal.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Going "Ninjutsu is harder because latency!" and balancing it accordingly, is, to continue your metaphor, the same as going "Some of our players have broken pinkies so balance content around that".

The solution is to fix latency/get a new ISP, not to go "Some people play on dial up so we'll make Ninjutsu powerful, since they'll easily mess up a 3 skill combo".

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The point of the analogy* not metaphor, was to fix the pinky, not leave it broken just because you can. Its not just "some" people who have this issue, its quite a few who have this issue there is a thread in the English and Japanese DPS sections about it. Its not about messing up the combo, its about the speed at which the combo comes out. No one wants the Mudras more powerful. We just want them to fix the input delay on them.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

It doesn't even matter about latency when it comes to Dragoon and Monk.

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You are just agreeing with my points here. There is no other class in the game that is latency dependent. Ninja is the only one. All other classes can be played smoothly with upwards of 140 ping.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

No one wants the Mudras more powerful. We just want them to fix the input delay on them.

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At which point, preforming Ninjutsu stops being "hard", and the argument that "Ninja is powerful because Ninjutsu is hard" falls flat, which was the point I was originally arguing against.

The idea that Monk and Ninja are difficult to play, so that's why they're better than Dragoon, completely baffles me. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. Monk moves between Flank/Rear, and failing to meet those requirements doesn't slow down your rotation. I would honestly say Dragoon is the "hardest" to play, simply because being unable to get the requirements messes with your rotation (I guess there's also the issue of Dragoon having ability animation lock while Monk doesn't), honestly though they're all easy to play.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

You are just agreeing with my points here. There is no other class in the game that is latency dependent. Ninja is the only one. All other classes can be played smoothly with upwards of 140 ping.

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Well, I don't think we really disagreed anyway, more misunderstood. I disagreed with another posters notion than Ninja and Monk are harder than Dragoon, and the only reason anyone could claim Ninja is hard is Ninjutsu latency. Sitting on a mobs rear is not hard, after all. Nor is weaving between flank and rear, for that matter, but whatever.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

At which point, preforming Ninjutsu stops being "hard", and the argument that "Ninja is powerful because Ninjutsu is hard" falls flat, which was the point I was originally arguing against.

The idea that Monk and Ninja are difficult to play, so that's why they're better than Dragoon, completely baffles me. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. Monk moves between Flank/Rear, and failing to meet those requirements doesn't slow down your rotation. I would honestly say Dragoon is the "hardest" to play, simply because being unable to get the requirements messes with your rotation, honestly though they're all easy to play.

Well, I don't think we really disagreed anyway, more misunderstood. I disagreed with another posters notion than Ninja and Monk are harder than Dragoon, and the only reason anyone could claim Ninja is hard is Ninjutsu latency. Sitting on a mobs rear is not hard, after all. Nor is weaving between flank and rear, for that matter, but whatever.

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I honestly think Dragoons are the hardest melee in the game. They have a blessing and a curse of having a set in stone rotation, but are plagued by positionals. Also Ninjas damage should not be justified by their "difficulty" because they are not hard to play. Mudras are just really annoying with the inconsistency.

People claiming ninjutsu is the "hard" part of ninja. You talk as if ninjas just go in an spam buttons and win, when they are probably just better than you at making good use of their kit.

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Originally Posted by Ephier

I honestly think Dragoons are the hardest melee in the game. They have a blessing and a curse of having a set in stone rotation, but are plagued by positionals. Also Ninjas damage should not be justified by their "difficulty" because they are not hard to play. Mudras are just really annoying with the inconsistency.

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Agreed. The only reason I even think Raiton should be nerfed is because it utterly wreaks people in PvP (especially double Raiton), but that nerf can be applied solely to PvP. Other than that I just think the range on it is ridiculous, since it renders Fuma Shuriken completely moot. 5y on Raiton seems reasonable, range and potency seems overpowered to me.

I guess there's also the issue of DoT; Ninja offers 70 potency/tic in DoTs, Monk 65, and Dragoon 55 (iirc). Given the fact that Ninja and Monk have zero directional requirements, while Dragoon requires a rear attack for the Chaos Thrust combo, they seem backwards. Perhaps they feel the superior instant potency of Chaos Thrust balances that out, though.

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Originally Posted by Scrammbles

this is so wrong lol /facepalm

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Because it sounds wrong, or because having only a single directional requirement in Trick Attack is somehow harder than the multiple Monk and Dragoon have? Heck, if you have a Warrior tank you can knock Dancing Edge off your rotation on Ninja, it is insanely easy to play. Ninjas rotation is both less complex than Dragoon or Monks, and has no directional requirements outside Trick Attack. It is by far the easiest of the three to play.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

. Ninja camps a mobs butt for Trick Attack every 60 seconds, it's the easiest to play. .

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this is so wrong lol /facepalm

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Because it sounds wrong, or because having only a single directional requirement in Trick Attack is somehow harder than the multiple Monk and Dragoon have? Heck, if you have a Warrior tank you can knock Dancing Edge off your rotation on Ninja, it is insanely easy to play.

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you are judging the difficulty of a class by the amount of positionals it has. that alone is just illogical.

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Originally Posted by Scrammbles

you are judging the difficulty of a class by the amount of positionals it has. that alone is just illogical.

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How so? More positional moves = more chance to fail them, weakening your DPS. Even if we ignore that though, Ninja simply has an easier basic rotation anyway (primarily because of Venoms being a static buff rather than an additional effect from part of its rotation), again more so with a Warrior tank since you can just cut Dancing Edge out completely.

Ninja is the Bard of melee DPS. Anyone who thinks it is a difficult Job to play needs to stop deluding themselves...

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Originally Posted by Scrammbles

lol do me a favor and tell me your NIN rotation pls

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You first, maybe then you'll realize how ridiculously simplistic it is. You can keep ignoring simple facts like Ninja simply gets a damage buff, while Monk and Dragoon have to work it into their rotation, though.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

I like how that this guy does not even have Rogue unlocked yet and telling people if the job is easy or hard.

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I like how you're assuming this account is the one I play.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

Doesn't all sound too bad, but dealing with a boss with a lot of mechanics can make keeping up all of this very difficult.

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So... It doesn't sound too bad, but when dealing with boss mechanics which everyone has to deal with, it becomes difficult?

Again; Ninja just has to glue itself to a mobs butt for Trick Attack. Monk and Dragoon have to weave between rear and flank. "When dealing with lots of mechanics" already makes itself twice as "difficult" for them. Ninja can miss Trick Attack every 60 seconds. Dragoon can mess up its rotation every time it gets to Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive. Monk can lose potency at almost every turn, and can typically say goodbye to Greased Lightning at various mechanics. Ninja simply is easier to play, and it will remain that way as long as Monk and Dragoon have to continually apply their damage buff while Ninja just gets to keep it up full time.

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Originally Posted by Tonkra

this is the only point which i think is quiet ridiculous... i mean for what do i have a permanent buff, that grants me 10% additional damage? for what? Then they could increase the damage of ninja in general by 10% and leave that nonsense buff completely out..

i rather would have liked if the venom buff grants you a 10% chance to inflict poison on your enemy.. would have made much more sense than this permanent buff.. and it would fit to the skill name as well.

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At the very least I was hoping it would wear off... Perhaps have it as an Aetherflow style buff which lasts for X GCD attacks, since it is fairly odd that venoms I've applied to my blades are some how effecting the damage of my magical lightning stance... That at least makes for a fairly interesting secondary mechanic of balancing which venom you have for Mug/Jugulate and even having venom at all for various parts of your rotation.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

primarily because of Venoms being a static buff rather than an additional effect from part of its rotation, again more so with a Warrior tank since you can just cut Dancing Edge out completely.

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this is the only point which i think is quiet ridiculous... i mean for what do i have a permanent buff, that grants me 10% additional damage? for what? Then they could increase the damage of ninja in general by 10% and leave that nonsense buff completely out..

i rather would have liked if the venom buff grants you a 10% chance to inflict poison on your enemy.. would have made much more sense than this permanent buff.. and it would fit to the skill name as well.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

How so? More positional moves = more chance to fail them, weakening your DPS. Even if we ignore that though, Ninja simply has an easier basic rotation anyway (primarily because of Venoms being a static buff rather than an additional effect from part of its rotation), again more so with a Warrior tank since you can just cut Dancing Edge out completely.

Ninja is the Bard of melee DPS. Anyone who thinks it is a difficult Job to play needs to stop deluding themselves...

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lol do me a favor and tell me your NIN rotation pls

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Originally Posted by Nalien

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I like how that this guy does not even have Rogue unlocked yet and telling people if the job is easy or hard.

I won't say Ninja is more difficult than MNK or DRG, but it definitely comes with it's own hardships. You have to manage keeping Shadow Edge, Dancing Edge, and Mutilate up while being able to get one Aeolian Edge in before you have to reapply all of them again. Two Aeolian Edge's if a WAR is handling the slash buff for you, then you can ignore Dancing Edge. Then you have your mudra which feels like a completely separate mechanic on it's own. Always keeping Huton up and able to do a Trick Attack and Raiton before having to reapply Huton, keeping heavy surveillance of your bar (2 Raitons if you have Kassatsu up). Doesn't all sound too bad, but dealing with a boss with a lot of mechanics can make keeping up all of this very difficult. Screw up a Huton once, that is a gigantic DPS loss for 20 seconds, -20- seconds. Not to mention, the mudra being laggy because the game does not register a .5sec GCD very well. Even with a low ping and latency, it is a big issue still and something SE needs to fix.

I don't care about nerfing NIN in PvE, they're great. They just make it super obvious how poorly DRG was implemented in comparison, but at least SE is working on that.

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Btw, Monk is still the top DPS for single target and the damage difference between Ninja and Dragoon is minimal.

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Just to clarify, MNK is still top DPS for single target dmg, yes. But I assume no one adds in their extra damage produced by Trick Attack to the DPS that NIN brings to the table? I think it's a bit underestimated between extra tank damage and 3 DPS damage for 10 seconds every 60 seconds add up quite a lot and may even push them pretty close to MNK, honestly.

But for PVP, yeah no, that. They nerfed BLM into the ground, gave healers a lot nerfs (most justifiable for sure), NIN stands out to me as the biggest melee threat.

DRG can't keep up with me with their infrequent jumps. MNK is only a threat with 3 greased lightning stacks and my CC on WHM lets me interrupt that most of the time. NIN can keep up with movement speed, doesn't need any stacks of anything, has burst long range AND close-range attacks, has a stun/silence, and high attack speed to keep those guaranteed interrupts going, a gap closer, and what, 3 potential DoTs? And the trick attack vuln down has a huge impact on taking a healer/caster down for the party. Can you tell I'm salty-balls about them? Lmao. Playing a mage can be frustrating enough, lawd.

Personally don't care if they nerf nin in pvp because the pvp in this game sucks anyways in my opinion, the only reason people seem to do it is for vanity gear.

I really don't think ninja needs a nerf in the pve environment, there are still several ways you can screw up the ninja rotation and they are not the top DPS job. DRG is getting buffed, they'll live until that happens. As for casters, you really shouldn't be complaining about the difficulty of ninja because you have the easiest job of all.

To me this thread looks like a bunch of whiners who never even played 50 nin talking about how easy it is which is rather amusing.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

You can keep ignoring simple facts like Ninja simply gets a damage buff, while Monk and Dragoon have to work it into their rotation, though.

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Welcome to the world of job differences. Where you ignore simple facts of: MNKs have GL3, DRGs have positionals, NINs have Ninjutsu.

All you continually whine about is comparison to specific mechanics. I don't want carbon copy jobs. I actually like positionals on DRG.

All I care about is all 3 bringing utility to a party and within a 10% DPS margin. Don't care who is on top and don't want major overhauls unless absolutely necessary.

With the way current melee DPS are doesn't require overhauls. Just slight buffs/changes. No nerfs on the PVE side.

IDC about PVP, so I won't even touch on it. < (What most ppl should do lacking knowledge of a given subject.)

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Well, I don't think we really disagreed anyway, more misunderstood. I disagreed with another posters notion than Ninja and Monk are harder than Dragoon, and the only reason anyone could claim Ninja is hard is Ninjutsu latency. Sitting on a mobs rear is not hard, after all. Nor is weaving between flank and rear, for that matter, but whatever.

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As i've played MNK before NIN gets out, i can say that,as mnk, it an easily job as long as you remember the rotation, just keep doing it you wont fail on it.
As Ninja, it's another pairs of hands, you can't use a single rotation (it's more a priority check) as you have to use Mudra as soon as possible, and you have to check every buff/skills if they are up to add extra damage.
So, while as nin your eyes are focus on the buff/skills/dots as mnk i was focusing more on the battlefield.

It's easy to play ninja, it's hard to keep an eyes on everything as ninja and if you can't follow the battlefield while doing your job, then you're gonna loose in DPS.

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Originally Posted by Adrian74

<-- What I hope for 2.41 -->

-> Ninja adjustments, adding side and rear attacks or even combos.

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How about no, no, and HELL NO?

I play Ninja because I don't have to put up with BS like positionals and elaborate combos. It's both strong and agile, and the only melee class I actually enjoy playing. Not all classes need to be complicated; there are already two melee classses that do this, neither one I intend on playing after maxing them out.

Positional-based classes are also sheer hell to play in the so-called "casual" raids, where troll tanks continue to insist on spinning bosses like tops on crank; I like that I can strike from any direction and have it connect with decent damage.

Ninja is fine as it is; if you're complaining that it's "too this" or "too that", maybe it's time you re-evaluate how you play your own class, and adapt accordingly.

Ninja isn't hard to play. There is a set rotation just like every other class and once you learn it the class becomes simple.

As for ninjutsu,
Huton -> Suiton-> (Kass+Raiton/Doton)-> Raiton/Doton -> Repeat

I've also never had trouble with mudra combos. Learn to queue your spells and stop button mashing.

Also, the excuse of boss mechanics is bad. You can ninjutsu while moving, Huton is applied to you, Raiton is long range and Suiton's buff lasts for 10 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Ninja is the Bard of melee DPS. Anyone who thinks it is a difficult Job to play needs to stop deluding themselves...

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Originally Posted by Hammerfist

Lol nope, Ninja is already the hardest DPS class in the game and wanting to make it even harder for the sake of "balance" is an absolute nonsense.

Btw, Monk is still the top DPS for single target and the damage difference between Ninja and Dragoon is minimal.

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minimal? lol

on top of being better just about everywhere else except aoe/self hp sustain, they definitely have recognizably higher dps (more than 5%). not to mention TA typically has better raid dps contribution than disembowel, depending on how well your BRD is doing vs the rest of the raid

the icing on the cake really is that a DRG has to play perfectly with positionals to perform suboptimal melee DPS. one missed HT/ID is going to cost you a ton of your already poor melee DPS, while NIN/MNK have the room to play a lot more leniently without being heavily penalized.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I like how you're assuming this account is the one I play.

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Then why not post on the account you DO play? Hiding behind an alt just invalidates the point you're trying to make.

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Originally Posted by Velhart

You have to manage keeping Shadow Edge, Dancing Edge, and Mutilate up while being able to get one Aeolian Edge in before you have to reapply all of them again. Two Aeolian Edge's if a WAR is handling the slash buff for you, then you can ignore Dancing Edge.

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Take what I say with a grain of salt as I haven't leveled NIN and only roughly know how it works based on vids and my friends who play the job at end game, but that just sounds like a standard rotation. It actually seems like a priority system, similar to DRG.

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Then you have your mudra which feels like a completely separate mechanic on it's own. Always keeping Huton up and able to do a Trick Attack and Raiton before having to reapply Huton, keeping heavy surveillance of your bar (2 Raitons if you have Kassatsu up).

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I actually think Mudras are pretty sweet since it's sort of like Wrath for WAR. It's a new mechanic for melee that people will have to learn and get down to muscle memory, which does give it a bit of a steep learning curve. Messing up a Huton will definitely severely gimp your DPS for the duration that your Mudras are down, and while MNK has it's own unique mechanic in GL3, losing it is fairly hard to do unless the boss jumps or your keyboard catches on fire. However, I do think this is similar to DRG missing a positional, especially Heavy Thrust. Missing either HT or Disembowel basically ruins your entire (long) rotation, and you can either continue it hoping that eventually it patches up or you have to start all over. If a boss stays perfectly still, I'd say Mudras require a bit more work as you do have to pay attention to when they come back up. If a boss is twisting and turning, I'd say things either even out or are in DRG's favor, as DRG is then required to know when the boss will turn to not attempt going for a HT and ending up hitting the rear or Disembowling the flank.

I'd say NIN is definitely different than the other 2 melee. All have their own unique things to deal with, and I'd say they're all on relatively equal footing. MNK has it a bit easier than both as missing a positional just means a single loss in potency, but neither MNK nor DRG should really be missing their positionals.

Anyway, would just be cool if all the melee were roughly on par with eachother. Give DRG some Utility, buff MDef, slightly more potency on stuff just to bring it up a bit and everything's square.

... Enix.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

Then why not post on the account you DO play? Hiding behind an alt just invalidates the point you're trying to make.

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Because they don't want to admit to the internet that they don't have an alt. I see that all the time. 100 soldiery bonus in Second coil farm parties? "Oh, this is my alt." Oh? So why do you keep dying?

Good try, Nalien.

Ninja is fine the way it is.

<- Totally not a biased Ninja :3

This thread scared the hell out of me. They better not nerf them just because people seem to think they're OP (mostly Dragoons).

But they are kinda OP. I was in a Titan HM the other day and the Ninja literally said that he was thankful for the movement speed buff because it made dodging the weights easier.

I just think that maybe because it's new that SE put A LOT of love into the class/job. Maybe too much. Why give a class an obvious advantage such as lesser fall damage? Why can't a healer have that? Why the new class? Why not a movement speed buff to help Mnks keep up their stacks? Why just the new class? Oh, and on top of that, they don't need to worry about positionals at all.

Just my opinion that I think that SE threw a few too many bonuses/abilities in the NIN bag. A nerf to their skills/abilities like how Bard's Rain of Death worked would be nice. As it stands, correctly played NINs are just too good.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

But they are kinda OP. I was in a Titan HM the other day and the Ninja literally said that he was thankful for the movement speed buff because it made dodging the weights easier.

I just think that maybe because it's new that SE put A LOT of love into the class/job. Maybe too much. Why give a class an obvious advantage such as lesser fall damage? Why can't a healer have that? Why the new class? Why not a movement speed buff to help Mnks keep up their stacks? Why just the new class? Oh, and on top of that, they don't need to worry about positionals at all.

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The movement speed buff ninja gets is equivalent to the fists of wind buff that monk can give themselves, so mnk actually does get a movement speed buff, they just have to give up a dps buff (fists of fire) to use it.

In addition to that, ninja loses an additional trait to falling damage which is 100% useless. I'm not sure how you find that useful at all, there's not a single fight in this game that would utilize fall damage.

As for positionals, you don't necessarily have to worry about them, but dancing edge does significantly more damage when used from the targets flank.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

The movement speed buff ninja gets is equivalent to the fists of wind buff that monk can give themselves, so mnk actually does get a movement speed buff, they just have to give up a dps buff (fists of fire) to use it.

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Keeping in mind that I only have a baby rogue but that my friends who have leveled it also main DRG and MNk, if what you're saying is the truth here then why does that need to happen this way?
Why can't NIN also lose out on something to achieve the buff?

And it's not that the fall damage is useful it's just that it's one more thing on top of a list already quite stacked. Why? Just cause we want them to take lesser damage for some reason.

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Originally Posted by DoctorPepper

In addition to that, ninja loses an additional trait to falling damage which is 100% useless. I'm not sure how you find that useful at all, there's not a single fight in this game that would utilize fall damage.

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There's some limited utility for it in Frontlines, but yeah it's generally not too useful.

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Originally Posted by Ophie-Mio

Keeping in mind that I only have a baby rogue but that my friends who have leveled it also main DRG and MNk, if what you're saying is the truth here then why does that need to happen this way?
Why can't NIN also lose out on something to achieve the buff? Maybe I'm just not understanding how it works.

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Monk and Dragoon both get traits that improve abilities they use in place of the movement speed trait nin gets (useful I agree) and the falling damage trait nin gets (100% useless). It's a trade off of utility, nothing more.

If you're curious about the movement speed buff that nin gets, please watch this video. It's not as OP as people think it is but it's definitely useful for movement heavy fights such as titan ex.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r45fccScTw4
This one includes a monk with fists of wind up (1st is ninja, 3rd is monk):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfKqPFmuLbY

I said this in another thread, and not sure if I'm going to parrot anyone here already, but if they give Trick Attack a similar lockout like Virus' antibody, that'll definitely help out in terms of balance. Right now there's virtually no penalty in stacking Ninjas and Monks, while there is with every other job. Ninja's utility is on par with Bard (if the healers don't need ballad, which they don't need after they master whichever endgame content, killing Bard out of the equation unless it's for first time progression), and their utility is much better than Dragoon's due to Trick Attack and Goad. Putting TA on a 60sec CD on the mob will even this out.