Please Consider Helping New Players

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Originally Posted by Sho86

This is ..snip

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We're talking trash mobs here, ten seconds to tell him is like five seconds longer than just killing the thing. I know which trash mobs I can safely just nuke myself before taking any damage. I'm blm so it has to reach me and then get through manawall/ward before even starting to damage me. Telling the tank his mark order is wrong once he's already steamed in is no good. If he's done it wrong and it's safe for me to fix it by nuking the right mob then I will.I'll let the tank know afterwards if the mob needed to die because it'll turn into something nasty if not prioritised ( like the harrier), I don't harass or even criticise, I just say why I did it.

I had a very similar experience, only much worse. Worse because it was Sastasha, the tanks first ever dungeon, in his very first MMO. When I joined in progress he was the only one there, so we had time to chat. He told me that 8 people had already left his party after insulting him and had no idea why. I asked him if he understood his role as tank, and he replied something very comical about never playing tank commander. It was clear to me right then that this guy was as green as they come.

We got a second dps quickly, but waited a while for a healer. In this time I explained to him what a tank was, and how to play the class. Once we got a healer, he did a great job. I told him not to leave right away when it was over, and then I tried to convince him to start over on Balmung. Twenty minutes later he sent me a tell, and so began the start of a great friendship!

This game needs a report player and karma system across the data centers where we could access player karma or report with a right click.

I ran 2 AVs today, and both times a player with all 50s leveled left the dungeon due to a lvl 49 nin being in the party. That's the only reason I could think of.

The second time, we pulled in outside help from another's linkshell to tank for us. The first time it was the healer who left instantly after checking out the nin. I could only imagine these same people claiming to like a challenge too...

This community needs some serious help, or a direct slap in the face.

Btw, the same nin that was 49 was trying all damn day to finish AV, and was in both of my queues for AV, just to clear that up. I actually came across the same person in DF twice, and had the same issue both times.

This is a BAD problem we're having currently. I'm doing my part to help the best I can. That's all I can do myself.

It's time people started speaking up and demanding a little dignity. We all pay the same monthly fee ffs.

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Originally Posted by sayafrost

Sometimes, even when you do try to help the tank, they just don't listen. I got in Haukke on join in progress sometime ago, while leveling my bard. The tank was alone there, and we got soon a healer and another dps.

The healer, the other dps and I; tried to explain what to do, the tank was a gld (I have one, so i know the logistics), and I tried to explain how to do rotations and use flash and similar.

They didn't know what flash was. We did stick with them to the end, but we didn't arrive to beat even the second boss, because we kept wiping and they were not able to hold aggro at all. Even with healer explaining over and over again what to do.

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/grammar nazi on
Can I offer you a little grammatical advice that will make you less unintelligible to others who are trying to figure out what you are saying?

You are using the word "they" incorrectly. The word "they" is a PLURAL pronoun, meaning that it refers to two of more persons, places, or things. When speaking about a single person, you use either the pronoun "he" or "she". In the English language, the proper pronoun to use when gender is unknown, or neutral, is "he". (except in a few limited instances, ships for instance are referred to as "she" rather than "he") The word "they" should NEVER be used to refer to a single person. When you say "they" but mean "he" you make yourself needlessly confusing, and it will take people who are reading your post a few seconds to process what you wrote to what you probably mean. It's not incorrect, sexist, or whatever to use a singular pronoun to describe a single person. It's proper grammar. In this case "he" would have been most appropriate.
/grammar nazi off

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Originally Posted by Marael

/grammar nazi on
Can I offer you a little grammatical advice that will make you less unintelligible to others who are trying to figure out what you are saying?

You are using the word "they" incorrectly. The word "they" is a PLURAL pronoun, meaning that it refers to two of more persons, places, or things. When speaking about a single person, you use either the pronoun "he" or "she". In the English language, the proper pronoun to use when gender is unknown, or neutral, is "he". (except in a few limited instances, ships for instance are referred to as "she" rather than "he") The word "they" should NEVER be used to refer to a single person. When you say "they" but mean "he" you make yourself needlessly confusing, and it will take people who are reading your post a few seconds to process what you wrote to what you probably mean. It's not incorrect, sexist, or whatever to use a singular pronoun to describe a single person. It's proper grammar. In this case "he" would have been most appropriate.
/grammar nazi off

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But they wanted to use "they" to talk about they. D:
Don't be too hard on they, they might not have a solid grasp on the English language.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

A couple of people is hardly representative of the whole player base. Obvious trolls are obvious, and you can report them to the GM. But you need more patience and persistence than just go "why bother?"

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I have all the patience in the world for someone who takes friendly, well mannered advice and takes it on board. I have zero patience with people who ignore everything and continue to fail at the same thing over and over and over with obviously no intentions of trying to make things better, not just for everyone else, but themselves too.

Lets use coil for an example. Turn 5 in fact. So you explain the fireball and conflags, what after 10-15 tries they dont move when they have conflag? they run away from the boss to get one shotted by the fireball? If they are not willing to listen or learn, then why bother? As will only cause frustration.

There are players willing to learn, there are also players unwilling to learn, and also players who select a language they do not understand for content they do not know. So how do you explain to them then? You can't give advice as they do not understand a word you are trying to say so continue failing at the same thing. I don't know if you speak/understand Japanese, would you enter a JP party in that case to do content you have zero knowledge of?

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Originally Posted by Yumi_umi

Try to help but if they won't accept help then proceed to carry and co ordinate with whomever is not acting like a sore i don't want to do it player. If that fails then just vote abandon and save them and urself the grief.
Nothing wrong in backing out if its too much to handle.

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Think thats the problem with many bad tanks at level 50, they got carried by the rest of the party covering for their mistakes, so continue derping their way through regardless. So they never learn. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind. Maybe as a community we should stop covering for bad players and let things play out so bad things happen and they can see the full effects of their "gamestyle".

Let them stick their fingers in the fire to see that it burns XD

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Originally Posted by polyhedral

This game needs a report player and karma system across the data centers where we could access player karma or report with a right click.

I ran 2 AVs today, and both times a player with all 50s leveled left the dungeon due to a lvl 49 nin being in the party. That's the only reason I could think of.

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Wouldnt have been the lvl 49 NIN that caused tank to leave, but the fact it was the most hated dungeon in the game, AV. Personally I prefer to not do dungeons for 30 minutes than to run AV. I hate it, any other dungeon I will happily run. And I'm not ashamed to say that if I get AV on low level roulette as either tank, healer or DPS I will bail and do something else for 30 minutes instead, if I get AV a second time, I take that as a sign to not bother running low level roullette that day.

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Originally Posted by allecs

If you don't want to learn your class why do you expect me to teach it too you? There's so many guides and videos out there that explains everything. Yet people refuse to look at those or just read the skill description.

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If people are expected to look at a guide to learn how to play a game there's something wrong. I would love if everyone would look at what the skill description says (it's all the info you really need in my opinion), but sadly many people don't. Some people have the mentality of "Reading is boring and I get nothing out of it, this is a game I don't want to read", and it goes for story, dialogue, and information alike. This is the world we live in, hate to say. I can't force anyone to read anything of that sort, but if they at least read the chatbox and try what is advised (in a non-condescending way of course) it will possibly alleviate headaches for everyone.

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When I started tanking on WAR which was way different than PLD (what I started off with) I admit, I was pretty terrible. BUT I read guides, watched videos and then went and grabbed mobs and a few people and practice grabbing aggro and holding it.

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Again, it's great you used guides to your advantage, but there are many people who dislike the notion of having to use a guide. When I learned to tank on GLD/PLD I had already gotten BRD and WHM to 50. I had a fairly clear understanding at that point of the tank's role. Needless to say, I wasn't good at first either, but I quickly adjusted without guides. But I'm one of those people who knew what to expect and enjoy learning the different mechanics and nuances. New tanks who have never played another MMO didn't and/or will not look up what a tank is in an MMO, and making that person's experience even worse is just plain idiotic.

Some things will have to be explained whether we like it or not, and the best way to do it is without insulting the player.

*EDIT* Sorry for responding to off topic, but I had to in this case =p */EDIT*

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Originally Posted by Marael

/grammar nazi on

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While you are perfectly correct in the manner of which "they" should be used in the English language, many locales of the language use "they" when referring to one person when speaking to another. For example, I could say "The healer wasn't healing enough, it was like they didn't know what they were doing." While in written form it is easy to spot the grammatical error, you probably wouldn't think twice about it if someone said it in a regular face to face conversation because you understood what they [the person] were [was] referring to. It can become habit, I'm sure.

It's certainly not the proper use as the single person is being referred to as a collective with the pronoun, but the point is still understandable. I understood it at least.

One thing i do about ppl tryin to nuke their balls off in lower dungeons.
If they do not stop pullin before the tank, and continue to NOT use the chat system.
I just stop healin them.

Ud be surprised, it works wonders.

Greetz,
Mörser out

So, a few people are sharing anecdotes about offering advice and getting back antagonistic retorts or total unresponsiveness. Maybe you did everything right, I don't know, but keep in mind that the user on the other end may not perceive your comments as you intended them. They don't know who you are, they didn't ask for your opinion of their strategy, and they don't know if you have any idea what you're talking about. Be clear about your intentions, and try not to sound insulting or condescending, even if what you're saying sounds incredibly neutral or tame in your head. You never know how they'll take it. If they respond with hostility to simple advice, you might just write them off as jerks, or maybe they misunderstood your intent.

I'm reminded of this cringe-worthy thread, where the OP actually thought they were giving friendly, helpful advice and but for whatever reason could not see how flagrantly rude they were being. Not saying anyone here was as bad as that, but just pointing out that sometimes what we mean to say is not the same as what others read.


On another note...

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Originally Posted by Maza

Being able to hide behind the intrawebz and say or do what ever you want with no repercussions isn't a good thing and I hope some day they figure out how to make it less easy.

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Originally Posted by NyarukoW

If you like censorship so much, I hear there is this nice place called North Korea. They like to have more people like you there.

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Taking responsibility for your words/actions, and facing the repercussions without the guise of anonymity, is not censorship. Nor is it North Korea. "Freedom of Speech" does not mean freedom from criticism or consequences. But for that matter, you actually don't have any protected freedom of speech in this game. Square Enix is the god of the world of FFXIV, and they will come down on you if you don't follow their rules. It's expected that you treat other players with respect -- in fact, you agreed to do so in the Terms of Service. Other players can report you for abusive behaviour, and if SE investigates it and finds in their favour, you're out. I'm not sure what sort of point you were trying to make by comparing this situation to a nightmare dictatorship, but you sound pretty silly.

I went off on a bad tank once, and only because he locked the two DPS out of the fight by running in while they were watching the CS, and said they should've been ready. Both of the DPS were ACNs and both had to use their taking Carby to keep me, as the WHM, alive throughout the dungeon because he could only hold one mob. I seem to recall him being a PLD. Unfortunatly, I had no tanking experience so I couldn't make suggestions, but his churlish attitude was most of what set me off.

Now that I do have the experience of all three types, I can try to give suggestions to people. If they take it or not is on them. I've liked being tank in duties lately just so I can ask if people know how to do the fight, generally the ones with a mechanic, because I watch them watching the CS.

Which doesn't help when your DPS decides you're not starting fast enough.

I do love helping people that want to learn though, and I don't intend to change that.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

I'm reminded of this cringe-worthy thread, where the OP actually thought they were giving friendly, helpful advice and but for whatever reason could not see how flagrantly rude they were being. Not saying anyone here was as bad as that, but just pointing out that sometimes what we mean to say is not the same as what others read.

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Yeah, this is exactly why I added "And if you do offer advice, do it in a non-condescending manner. If you say something in a condescending or scathing way you still make the person feel like they're stupid or bad." to my OP. When I was learning the basics of tanking I did take advice, but the few who offered advice did it in such a way that I wanted to punch their face through my screen. Some people just don't empathize with others very well.

i am a tank myself ,been to a group where an ARC uses the tanking summon ,didnt say anything since i keep taking aggro and if gave an advice he might get angry or something.the rest of the party didnt say anything because all aggro went smoothly

but i was on the edge when some Ninjas with ilv 110-120 keep fast bursting, thus keeping the aggro on the edge (of course i am A) , its either i am at fault or its their item which give them much aggro,in the end all were happy and thanked the party.i meet tons of tolerant people while i was a GLD and some of 'em spout out the usual nonsense

Sorry for wall of text :3 And for some of it being a tad off-topic.

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

[...]he got super pissed at me when I told him to keep the bird faced away from his healer. He then went on a rant about how he was asking for any special specifics and not "tank 101', [...] If someones going to explain mechanics for you then you probably shouldn't be rude about it when you get what you ask for.

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And knowing the boss in question has a forward AoE attack (or a rear one, in some cases) is part of the tactics, yes. So it does seem a bit silly to go off on you for that. Then again, there's this whole world of Interpretation, and if you read the tone differently than was intended (having no voice or body language to help you), it can be very difficult to see things for the advice it is =)

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

I've done this many times. I've done it because a tank marking a target isn't always right. [...]

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Originally Posted by charlemagne

[...]I'll let the tank know afterwards if the mob needed to die because it'll turn into something nasty if not prioritised ( like the harrier), I don't harass or even criticise, I just say why I did it.

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I rarely mark targets these days, unless I'm running with people who are new players and/or they ask me to; I just focus on the mob that takes the most damage. But when I started out and was running a dungeon for the first time, I did ask the others (who were often heavily level-synched) if they'd mind marking any particular mobs in groups that should be taken down first. Just because I was the tank didn't mean I automatically know every place I set foot in :3 And I've never seen 'tank' as a leading position. I just help my squishy friends by taking the beating for them.
Explaining after the fight is just fine, in my opinion. That way, the tank will (hopefully) know for the next time =D

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Originally Posted by Marael

/grammar nazi on [...]
You are using the word "they" incorrectly. The word "they" is a PLURAL pronoun, meaning that it refers to two of more persons, places, or things. When speaking about a single person, you use either the pronoun "he" or "she". In the English language, the proper pronoun to use when gender is unknown, or neutral, is "he". (except in a few limited instances, ships for instance are referred to as "she" rather than "he") The word "they" should NEVER be used to refer to a single person.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

[...]While in written form it is easy to spot the grammatical error, you probably wouldn't think twice about it if someone said it in a regular face to face conversation because you understood what they [the person] were [was] referring to. It can become habit, I'm sure.

It's certainly not the proper use as the single person is being referred to as a collective with the pronoun, but the point is still understandable. I understood it at least.

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*coughs* No. "They" is a perfectly acceptable word to use when the subject/object is of indeterminable gender. Of course, when the gender is known that's no longer an issue, is it? Such as with ships; the known 'gender' is female, therefore "she" is the appropriate pronoun.
"Long before the use of generic he was condemned as sexist, the pronouns they, their, and them were used in educated speech and in all but the most formal writing to refer to indefinite pronouns and to singular nouns of general personal reference, probably because such nouns are often not felt to be exclusively singular: If anyone calls, tell them I'll be back at six. [...] Such use is not a recent development, nor is it a mark of ignorance. Shakespeare, Swift, Shelley, Scott, and Dickens, as well as many other English and American writers, have used they and its forms to refer to singular antecedents." (quoted from dictionary.com)

And since you first of all never really know what gender the player is, and secondly don't always pay attention to the gender of their character (especially with how androgynous some can appear to be), it's a lot easier to use 'they' or 'them' than to always write 'he/she' or 'him/her' =)

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Originally Posted by Noxifer

has a forward AoE attack (or a rear one, in some cases) is part of the tactics, yes. So it does seem a bit silly to go off on you for that. Then again, there's this whole world of Interpretation, and if you read the tone differently than was intended (having no voice or body language to help you), it can be very difficult to see things for the advice it is =)

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Thing is though I didn't use any type of tone with him. In fact I never do with anyone as I am pretty laid back and totally okay with a dungeon being rough if people are new even if I have run it 100 times. That's the only person I've ever had get aggravated at me for giving any advice for as long as I've played(1.0 beta). If your going to ask for important boss mechanics I'm going to tell you every mechanic so that way there is no "Oh I didn't know" or me going "woops I should of remembered to tell you xxx." Have to make sure the whm/sch doesn't have a more difficult job as it is.

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Originally Posted by File2ish

That limit is still here?

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I say guides because for some people it takes a bit more than reading the skill description to understand what x does. So reading a guide for better understanding is perfectly fine, it's not to play the game but to actually learn your class. I get it that somethings will have to be explained but basic things are usually rarely explained. You usually have to stop the entire dungeon and break down the entire class for the person. Even if a person doesn't want to read a guide, there's videos. Do want to watch those? That's okay ask a FC mate, don't want to do that? Go out in the world and grab some mobs and notice what skill does what. There's really no reason to ever go in a dungeon with randoms and you don't know the basics of your class, like how overpower works, etc.

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Originally Posted by Moerser

One thing i do about ppl tryin to nuke their balls off in lower dungeons.
If they do not stop pullin before the tank, and continue to NOT use the chat system.
I just stop healin them.

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I do the same since Beta 3 ! :D

Some of the DPS dont learn from it tho. Ive encountered few of them during Beta stages and were already doing that kind of stupid stuff, and are still doing it almost 2 years later...
Its almost like they dont want to learn from it even tho it literally "kills them".

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

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Taking responsibility for your words/actions, and facing the repercussions without the guise of anonymity, is not censorship. .. I'm not sure what sort of point you were trying to make by comparing this situation to a nightmare dictatorship, but you sound pretty silly.

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If anything the person that posted it comparing everyone to "idiots" in an "idiocracy" should be help responsible. And on top of that, they want to everyone to shut up which is censorship. If you can't see that, then there is not much to discuss. SE is the ultimate arbiter of these forums, but people should not get away with insulting the whole forum and then some, and then try to get away with denying freedom of speech to everyone else.

See original post:

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Originally Posted by Maza

... Calling people names and telling everyone to shut up ...

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Originally Posted by Blossoming

Thing is though I didn't use any type of tone with him. In fact I never do with anyone as I am pretty laid back and totally okay with a dungeon being rough if people are new even if I have run it 100 times. That's the only person I've ever had get aggravated at me for giving any advice for as long as I've played(1.0 beta). If your going to ask for important boss mechanics I'm going to tell you every mechanic so that way there is no "Oh I didn't know" or me going "woops I should of remembered to tell you xxx." Have to make sure the whm/sch doesn't have a more difficult job as it is.

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Oh, I know =D But that's sort of what I was trying to get at. Since text-based conversation is very tricky to interpret at times, due to lack of tone of voice or body language, it's easy to imagine a negative/dismissive tone unless the opposite is very obvious (which it rarely gets to be due to time constraints in typing things before people get impatient and run off anyway). Especially if you've run into people being openly rude or condescending before. And once you start imagining it, it's even more difficult to change your interpretation filter.

And I'm not trying to put any responsibility on you for it, not at all; he did ask for tactics and types of attacks to be aware of (like directional AoEs) is part of that. But there might be mitigating circumstances as to why the tank took it the way he did, and I know from personal experience that it sometimes can be very tricky to know what intention/attitude lies behind those words in your chat window (or forum posts, for that matter :3). So I was just trying to keep an open mind about him instead of instantly going all "what an idiot" or something ^^

I'm not the greatest when it comes to explaining things, however when it comes to new players I try to help them best I can. I figure we were all new at some point and had to learn. I't may not be much but offering advice and pointers should at least give them something positive to think about. Its more productive than being an elitist, toxic, or down right impatient person.

If you're in a dungeon with a party depending on you it's already too late to learn your role. That's what guides are for. You're supposed to learn your role before you get everyone killed 20 times, not after. I'm more than happy to explain boss mechanics and such to people, but that's very different from explaining how their own class works to them.

I'm guilty of getting frustrated with people and becoming snippy/passive-aggressive, but...sometimes I think it's justified to be a little mad. When a lvl 50 paladin with multiple lvl 50 classes doesn't understand the basics of his class, (i.e. flash increases enmity, don't use sprint just before pulling the next group), he should really take the time to master it in lower level dungeons before stepping into anything past Brayflox. FATE leveling a class to 50 really doesn't cut it if you're missing out on party and dungeon mechanics in between.