Why is tanking so rough for new players?

Atleast lowering the MP & TP cost of there AOE taunt would be a good and fast fix.

It's inevitable that you will spam overpower draining tp before you have BB or Cyclone which is why I hate doing low level dungeons.
At max level you shouldn't have enmity problems except for when you have another tank in the group and they don't take off their tanking stance/aura which I find so irritating.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If DPS has to hold back, tank is bad.

GLD/PLD is significantly inferior to MRD/WAR for 4man dungeons. ...

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This is utter garbage. People are suppose to play together. DPS need to throttle down and slow down the DPS. That is teamwork. BRD/BLM who are overgeared and/or level-synced should know better than pealing mobs off the tank, they should know how to use quelling strikes at the very minimum.

Here is a simple rule for tanks learning and level up. If the DPS insist on stealing aggro on a mob, let them have it. If they touch it they bought it, plain and simple. Don't worry about them. If they die they deserve it. Once you understand that it is easy to level up the tank. I had a BLM tell me that he was the better tank, so I just healed on my PLD and let the fool tank all of totorak, they finally gave up at the final boss, because they were not the better tank.

Holding hate is easy but holding ur party's hate isn't. Fights will happen, blame will go around.
So u gotta tank tht sht too lol.
But yea i'll leave the tanking advice to real tanks.

New players tend to only focus on one mob after they spam their aoe moves a couple of times, if they even use the aoe move to begin with. I've seen this a million times, mrd or gld spams op/flash one of two times to grab hate then only attacks one enemy while the other three start running to the blm who's spamming fire II's.

A skill that all tanks must know is to cycle through their targets to continuously check the enmity bar to make sure they have a good hate on all mobs. Apart from that all you're doing is just staying alive with proper use of cd's and since 2.4 went live PLD got a massive enmity buff. Once they hit endgame they'll need to learn and memorize boss rotations to be able to maximize their def cd's but thats only if they make it to endgame as a tank and not switching to a dps or healer out of frustration.

If new players can't get this around their heads then prepare to see a lot of scrub DRK in Heavensward.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

You do realize Synced players are placed at level-appropiate NQ white gear right? Any player going in with Pinks, greens or HQ crafted stuff is going to be much stronger than synced people.

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Not true, sync = max stat you can have at the set level, not minimum stats.

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Originally Posted by Kyros

Also, of course a tank not wearing Level-appropriate gear is going to have trouble keeping hate of players, synced or not. Do you honestly expect otherwise?

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Of course? Do you expect a new player to keep a full set of HQ gear up? The game leaves breathing room for DPS and healers, but tanks must be wearing literally the best to counter the imbalance issue with synced players.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Of course? Do you expect a new player to keep a full set of HQ gear up? The game leaves breathing room for DPS and healers, but tanks must be wearing literally the best to counter the imbalance issue with synced players.

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A full set of NQ gear will suffice. Most of my low level tanks have done just fine wearing that. They take a beating, but they hold hate just fine.

I'm currently leveling MRD just after I finished my PLD. While most PLD was pre-2.4, I did seem to have a lot of issues keeping mobs of of anyone, and even Provoke was worthless. I believe it was because of my bad gear. I tried to keep up, but I had problems still. With MRD, I was at 15 already because I needed it for DRG, and I did buy fresh green dungeon gear for it and had no issues. So I'm in the group of "gear makes the tank." It really doesn't have to be HQ gear though. Just level appropriate. I didn't change my gear on MRD again until level 20 (which is about what I'm at now.).

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

To be effective you want Flash, and you NEED Flash.

The purists will say 'use overpower more' blatantly ignorant of the fact that at low levels this burns through TP faster than wildfire. This means more waiting around for TP regen instead of pulling the next group. Flash is necessary because it's using an otherwise meaningless stat - MP.

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You do not NEED Flash. It is not necessary. My MRD/WAR has NEVER slotted Flash, and does not have a problem. Mark your targets, kill in the right order, you only need 1 or 2 at the start, maybe another later on.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If DPS has to hold back, tank is bad.

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Wrong. It is not the duty of the DPS to do as much damage, as soon as possible, for as long as possible. Yes, DPS, let that sync in for a bit. The tank is responsible for keeping things on him, just like it is the DPS job to check their own threat.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Not true, sync = max stat you can have at the set level, not minimum stats.

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Wrong. I can take one of my i108 / i109 tanks, go into AV, equip the drops that drop in that dungeon, and my stats will go UP.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

Wrong. It is not the duty of the DPS to do as much damage, as soon as possible, for as long as possible. Yes, DPS, let that sync in for a bit. The tank is responsible for keeping things on him, just like it is the DPS job to check their own threat.

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DPS should never have to hold back. Learn how to spike aggro. Learn how to keep aggro. Enmity modifiers are so extremely high that you can have a weapon 20 ilvl below your DPS and still hold threat.

I'm literally wearing T12 drops in my profile pic and you're trying to tell me how tanking works? I was leveling up a tank alt and running dungeons again too, and had zero issues. And I didn't mark targets because I'm not bad. AoE is always more efficient for damage, so hold AoE threat.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

DPS should never have to hold back. Learn how to spike aggro. Learn how to keep aggro. Enmity modifiers are so extremely high that you can have a weapon 20 ilvl below your DPS and still hold threat.

I'm literally wearing T12 drops in my profile pic and you're trying to tell me how tanking works?

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Tank pulls a group of 4 things with Provoke, or Shield Lob or Tomahawk. Before the tank gets in melee range, to Flash, Overpower, whatever else he needs to do, it is ok for the DPS to start blasting especially the other 3 mobs before the tank has ANY threat on them? LotA, Bone Dragon, the DPs needs to DPS as soon as the skeletons spawn, kill them on the spot? Let's not leave healers out. It is ok on that same pack of 4, for the healer to start dropping big heal bombs and severely over healing before the tank has a chance to establish SOME threat? No.

Level 50 content, new tank in his ilvl 60-80 going to keep enmity from ilvl 110-120 dps if they don't hold back some?

I stand by what I said.

tbh they should at least update the tooltip for flash to say enmity scales with weapon dmg; it's something someone might easily think "well it couldn't be like that", and wonder why their flashes hold no hate.

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Originally Posted by Mykll

stuff said by a tank that probably loses threat

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Chance of an i110 dps running i60 content is about zero, so your comment has little merit. If tank is pulling slow enough for dps to get there first, then yea it is ok and tank needs to be faster.

There is no situation in which when everyone is playing correctly, will a dps pull hate off a tank with dps going all out.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Chance of an i110 dps running i60 content is about zero

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If you don't run older content yourself, how can you prove that i110 dps aren't running it? Specially when someone who DOES run that content is telling you otherwise?

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Originally Posted by Alukah

If you don't run older content yourself, how can you prove that i110 dps aren't running it? Specially when someone who DOES run that content is telling you otherwise?

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Because I did trial roulette on a daily basis, and there was absolutely never a time when both tanks were fresh i50 with an entire party of i110 dps.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Chance of an i110 dps running i60 content is about zero, so your comment has little merit. If tank is pulling slow enough for dps to get there first, then yea it is ok and tank needs to be faster.

There is no situation in which when everyone is playing correctly, will a dps pull hate off a tank with dps going all out.

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So range DPS should ALWAYS attack as soon as they are in range, while waiting for the tank, who has to be in MELEE range to be of any use, to get there? Because, they will ALWAYS be in range of their attacks before the tank. Unless the tank is just not waiting for things to die first and is already running ahead to try to get ahead of the trigger happy DPS. Read what I said again. The tank is not slow, he is in range of one of his range pulls first, ALWAYS, before he ever gets in melee range. That is not a slow tank. He is using a ranged attack while running forward to get in melee range. That is a trigger happy DPS that needs to wait a few seconds.

I run all kinds of dungeons, trials, guildhests, any combo of roulettes, and see it all the time, higher level DPS mixed in with a newer tank, that is actually running a level 50 dungeon to actually get gear for upgrades.

With all gear being about the same, and the tank has ALREADY established enmity, then yes, in most cases the DPS should not have to worry about holding back. But what you are saying is that it is ok for DPS to pull first, or DPS to start AOE nuking before the tank even has a chance to establish threat first. So, yes, literally, a worse geared tank is telling you how tanking works.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Chance of an i110 dps running i60 content is about zero, so your comment has little merit. If tank is pulling slow enough for dps to get there first, then yea it is ok and tank needs to be faster.

There is no situation in which when everyone is playing correctly, will a dps pull hate off a tank with dps going all out.

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111 MNK here, and yes, I can peel off a tank if I'm not careful, especially under Perfect Balance+ b4b and I get a lucky crit chain running. I run all roulettes, low high, man scenario and expert (still have to do new Hildibrand chain to re-unlock trials). Albeit I do run sometimes as tank or healer, high and main scenario with DPS accs and sword oath. No DPS can peel from me. But PLD DPS is pretty hawt, but my tank is turn 9 geared.

It is easier for even lower ilevelled tanks to hold enmity "IF" they know what they are doing and the DPS is aware of their enmity generation. Only time you need to be more aware of pack enmity is when you have to single target DPSers nuking 2 different adds and they are much higher Ilvl, but thats on the DPS to be honest. I hardly mark also, only if I want a target down ASAP due to mechanics, I want DPS to focus that one down.

But if a mob peels with less than 10% hp, it doesnt matter, DPS will kill it before it becomes a threat to them.

But the problem is, so many do not know what they are doing, or lack awareness of being able to watch the complete fight, they tunnel vision on one thing whilst, practically, ignoring the rest.

To be competent as a tank, you need to know whats going on with every mob. the rest of the party and the surrounding areas to be able to quiclky respond to any unexpected circumstances, eg a patrol moving into range.

2nd boss in Snowcloak is a good test of being able to observe and react to what is happening in the battlefireld. shockingly enough, when Ive done roulette as SCH, MNK or NIN Ive seen so many tanks that cannot do that.

"Tank it in the middle and keep it pointed at the adds so you freeze them into snowballs, as we need them to damage and interrupt the boss" Next thing tank takes it the edge of the arean and does not face it whatsover >.<

But bad players will never take advice and ultimatelly blame others for their own mistakes, learning players take advice and look at how they can improve. Funnily enough, actually more experienced tanks are more open to advice and tricks than newer players in my experience.

Ego is a major hurdle when it comes to self improvement, in all aspects of life.

I've been tanking since EQ1, done all types of tanking, from RNG blocking to active. I learn more about tanking with every MMO I play.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

Not true, sync = max stat you can have at the set level, not minimum stats.

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No, levelsync has been heavily tested and it drops the gear's stats to that of the level of white NQ gear of the area's max level.

ilevelsync works the way you describe, but levelsync works as I've described it.

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Of course? Do you expect a new player to keep a full set of HQ gear up? The game leaves breathing room for DPS and healers, but tanks must be wearing literally the best to counter the imbalance issue with synced players.

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Nope, I expect new players to come into dungeons wearing the NQ gear that they got from recent class and main/side story quests. A tank should have received or chosen a full set of NQ gear from main/side story and class quests just before they unlocked the dungeon that they would need them in. All to often I've seen new tanks wearing gear 10 or more levels out of date leading to scenes where, I as a meleeDps in unsynced HQ, had several hundred more hp than the "Tank."

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Originally Posted by magdahmhara

Dps should watch their enmity, too and wait for the tank to establish theirs. Waiting for the tank to smack the mobs around is always a good idea.

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That depends. If it's a low level mob I know I can tank and kill quickly, I won't wait for the tank to generate aggro and simply burst the mob down.

But in essence you are right: all the tools are there, there is 0 reason for any DPS to aggro a mob unless the tank is afk / DCd.

Wonder why there aren't that many tanks? Yes, it's very hard on low level dungeons (it's actually easy, but as a new person it's hell).

Biggest mistake I made when I switched from playing healer to tank was thinking that I needed to do ANYTHING other than hold threat.
I thought my role was to do some damage and tank mobs, wrong!
No one cared about my dps, they would be just as happy if I just stood there, as long as I spammed flash and kept the mobs on me at all times
I soon learned this and was more comfortable tanking from then on.


I guess it's kinda the same with healer, in that no one really cares about your little aero and stone II every now and then.
As long as the party is alive, that's all that matters.

Low level tanks need to equip new gear each time it's available. Not like a dps who can get away with skipping a round of gear and waiting on the next one. A lot of them stray away from flash, 1,2,3 flash repeat. It's near impossible to lose hate at a low level if you are doing that.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Because I did trial roulette on a daily basis, and there was absolutely never a time when both tanks were fresh i50 with an entire party of i110 dps.

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Perhaps because you were one of the said tanks?:rolleyes:
Now thing is if you know what you are doing and have adequate gear dps will not pull mobs from you. Tomahawk/shield lob generate enough threat for the mob to not peel off you right away even if dps goes as soon as you pull.
But the issue here seems to be low level tanking(pre-full combo) which can be frustrating for the new tanks if the dps go all out.

if your group uses alot of AoE you need to simply shift targets to see the aggro meter progress , focus on targets with aggro going towrds Dps ,ignore being a Dps for once
i constantly keep hitting multiple targets to reduce aggro toward Dps if not CCed, and healer if inflected Aoe +spam flash till the aggro goes to less than 40%
sometimes flash decreases 20-15% hate toward other member with high damage and at(the ones with icons). you need to accommodate if things goes out of hands if a member got a 100% hate stun(if available) spam flash +other enmity skills till the meter is reduced to less than 90% if this doesn't help , please enter the dungeon with ilv count higher than the dungeon level for more comfortable management of aggro, i have a ilv 75 count and right now trying to get ilv 100 at least before going to the last main story quest i don know what is called pedtrium or something

now i am only focusing on low level dungeon to get allagans and $$+ beast tribe quests

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

DPS should never have to hold back.

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Said the terrible DPS.

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Chance of an i110 dps running i60 content is about zero,

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Roulettes say hi.

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Originally Posted by MeeDeggiThePunisher

Said the terrible DPS.

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I'm a tank main. Hence the "main class" being GLD on the forums. If I lose hate it's my fault for making a mistake. Also I'm quite good at DPS.

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Originally Posted by Fynlar

Roulettes say hi.

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95% of trial roulette dps that are i110 are soldiery superheros (many times wearing mismatched accessories that don't have primary stat) that have no clue how to play their job. As they have no idea how to deal damage, they generate almost no threat. This is easily seen on the threat meter.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

95% of trial roulette dps that are i110 are soldiery superheros (many times wearing mismatched accessories that don't have primary stat) that have no clue how to play their job. As they have no idea how to deal damage, they generate almost no threat. This is easily seen on the threat meter.

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You've been in some pretty dire roulettes then. I've done a lot of roulettes, both on lower geared jobs and my 'best' geared jobs. I've been in several HM roulettes where the DPS were packing 5k+ hitpoints, a Novus/Nexus weapon and knew their job and rotation all too well.

So no, 95% of roulette DPS are not idiots, nor are they necessarily poorly geared. Most are just regular players looking to get soldiery, either for new jobs or to enhance their own even further. It's not uncommon to be a low level tank with a bunch of high level DPS, and I've even had to hold aggro in a level 40 dungeon as Warrior with insanely over geared players who were at the SAME level. They had so much materia melded it was insane!

It's all too easy to blame 'bad tanks' which is why people shy away from tanking in the first place. The truth is there IS such a thing as a bad DPS as well, and knowing when to hold back makes the difference between good and great.

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Originally Posted by Lemuria

It's all too easy to blame 'bad tanks' which is why people shy away from tanking in the first place. The truth is there IS such a thing as a bad DPS as well, and knowing when to hold back makes the difference between good and great.

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No, you never hold back on damage, period. Get better tanks, or teach them (unlikely to be receptive, unfortunately).

Also saying someone is good because they have a Nexus is laughable.. when the hardest thing required to get it is still Titan HM.

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Originally Posted by RegnumMagik

To me, the biggest thing about tanking for new players is that they need to have a fair understanding of the dungeon to do effective pulls. Otherwise, things can get chaotic.

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Considering I've seen too many low level tanks that do not understand the concept of ability combos and emnity, I'd say the issue runs deeper than that.

I'm looking at you, GLAs that either spam Fast Blade => Riot Blade or who simply NEVER combo abilites.

If you're not holding aggro it means your DPS are incapable of reading numbers and count from 1-5 (assuming you're numbering stuff before pulling) or you're not doing your enmity combos. Only two reasons why a low level tank would ever lose aggro.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

No, you never hold back on damage, period. Get better tanks, or teach them (unlikely to be receptive, unfortunately).

Also saying someone is good because they have a Nexus is laughable.. when the hardest thing required to get it is still Titan HM.

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There is such a thing. DPS are just as responsible for keeping an eye on their threat, and if they steal from the tank by going balls to the wall yes, that does make them bad DPS. They're no different than the guys that pop all cooldowns just as the tank uses Shield Lob/Tomahawk to start the pull.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

They're no different than the guys that pop all cooldowns just as the tank uses Shield Lob/Tomahawk to start the pull.

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Using cooldowns at start is standard operating procedure for all good dps. I have no issue holding threat, and they won't pull off me. Spike aggro is something you need to learn then if you're having an issue with this.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Using cooldowns at start is standard operating procedure for all good dps.

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That's standard for bad DPS. Anyone that's played these games knows the tank has to get ahold of aggro before you can start popping cooldowns. Was true in FFXI, was very true in WoW and continues to be true here.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If DPS has to hold back, tank is bad.

GLD/PLD is significantly inferior to MRD/WAR for 4man dungeons. If you're just starting, do main story on PLD then go back and level WAR through dungeons.

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As a NIN, i was consistently pulling hate from even Allagan geared tanks while i was leveling up (LL DR) and ended up giving alkl tanks a 5 second headstart before beginning my rotation. Before NIN, i crossedin Fracture and used that along Mutilate as an opener to give the tank even more time get to get a lead before i began my big hits.
If your DPS is pulling hate constantly, Your DPS is just tunneling and not paying any attention to that Enmity bar. Good DDs know how and when to hold back, and when to go balls to the wall.
A hallmark of a bad DD is one who pops cooldowns at the very instant a trash pack is pulled and go balls out before the tank even has a chance to get a 123 combo going, let alone the time to Flash once or twice so as to keep the hate off the healer.

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Originally Posted by Duelle

That's standard for bad DPS. Anyone that's played these games knows the tank has to get ahold of aggro before you can start popping cooldowns. Was true in FFXI, was very true in WoW and continues to be true here.

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Thanks for confirming you don't know how to tank if you're unable to hold threat off dps burst at the start. Again, the enmity modifiers on skills are ridiculous, and in 2.4 they felt the need to buff flash/scorn.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

A hallmark of a bad DD is one who pops cooldowns at the very instant a trash pack is pulled and go balls out before the tank even has a chance to get a 123 combo going, let alone the time to Flash once or twice so as to keep the hate off the healer.

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If you're trying to 123 on a trash pack at the start, you're doing it wrong. As I keep saying, if played correctly, under no circumstance will a dps pull off a tank.

I leveled both tank classes in 2.3 and personaly, I think what makes tanking so rough for the new players is not the content itself, but the players who do not follow the tank and go their own way. I think almost every tank has atleast (this is all from the point of view of the tank, tanks are not saints) witnessed the following:

- DPS and Healer want to rush the dungeon, so they keep pulling the mobs.
- They dont follow the marking, which makes keeping agro at low level alot harder.
- When things go wrong, the blame falls on you.

Those 3 are the major things that I had to deal with as a tank and I reckon if players avoided: pulling mobs, attacked the right marked mobs and stopped playing the blame games, we might see more tanks in this game.

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Originally Posted by Laerune

- DPS and Healer want to rush the dungeon, so they keep pulling the mobs.
- They dont follow the marking, which makes keeping agro at low level alot harder.

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Very much this. It's all very well saying, "the tank is too slow!", "dps shouldn't have to hold back!", but we are talking about NEW PLAYERS here.

The biggest issue is usually the other party members. They get impatient and rush ahead. They know at low levels it doesn't even matter if they pull hate.

Sure tanking at any level is easy if, like me, you levelled other classes first. I already knew the dungeons like the back of my hand, and had a lot of experience watching both good and bad tanks.

But new player tanking as their first class? Totally different. I agree, the tanking skills the game gives you are more than adequate.

It's being dumped in an unfamiliar dungeon with impatient and unforgiving party members that makes it hard to be a good new tank.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Using cooldowns at start is standard operating procedure for all good dps. I have no issue holding threat, and they won't pull off me. Spike aggro is something you need to learn then if you're having an issue with this.

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You are a terrible DPS.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

If you're trying to 123 on a trash pack at the start, you're doing it wrong. As I keep saying, if played correctly, under no circumstance will a dps pull off a tank.

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And you don't understand that there's a massive stat disparity between a fresh 50 with the minimum gear and a geared player with the best gear.

My criteria to know if a tank is good is when we start the instance, he runs in after buffs and pulls lots of enemies without losing any aggro.

Though it's rare to see that, most tanks play it safe.

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Originally Posted by Ellatrix

Thanks for confirming you don't know how to tank if you're unable to hold threat off dps burst at the start. Again, the enmity modifiers on skills are ridiculous, and in 2.4 they felt the need to buff flash/scorn.

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Try doing that with ilvl 55 weap with a 110 BLM popping raging strikes and triple flaring just as you pull. Then tell me thats not a bad BLM...

Also the post is about new players. So take that down to lower level dungs. A learning tank having DPS go full throttle from the firt pull make it harder for them until they learn. Then, instead of giving advice if they know, the DPS go all nerdy and verbually blitz the tank. Albeit, there are too many that totally ignore any tips and just continue failing their way through. But thats a different story XD

But, for me, the harder something is to learn, the more rewarding it is when it all comes together.

Yesterday I tanked Tam-Tara reg, being the first time I ever tanked shit in my life ever since I tried to once in WoW like 5 years ago. I warned I was a noob tank and went on running the dungeon.At the end, People even said "hey, gj on mantaining hate".

What I did? simple... I did the thing I like the most when tanks did, even in other games, but most of them are just too lazy to bother doing: I MARKED MOBS. Every. Single. Pull.
You cannot BELIEVE how much love you're gonna get if you do it. Not only that, but you'll also be able to keep hate cuz that rule ensures people will be attacking the same mob as YOU are. My GLD is lvl 18 now, meaning I don't even HAVE provoke.

So, my tip? stop being lazy and mark mobs. Tanking will become really easier