If locked gear progression is still valued, why do sands/oil still flow free in Hunts

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Originally Posted by ispano

Good thing Coil only drops Sand and Oil... wait. Same with ST, Oil isn't the only thing that drops there. You will not convince me, please, stop trying. Just because they let the cat out of the bag with Hunts, does not mean they need to make Second Coil and ST a free for all before the content itself is obsolete.

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You're right; sand and oil aren't the only thing that drop from ST and SCOB. However, they give what are either inferior (i100 boss cosplay armor), or functionally equivalent (i110 High Allagan) rewards. There is an argument that High Allagan pieces are required for "BiS" gear, however, many Sands of Time and Oil of Time pieces are also BiS slot items, rendering both sets of gear functionally equivalent except for *possibly* High Allagan as cosmetic rewards.

I'm not interesting in convincing you. I'm interested in ensuring that accurate information is being engaged in the discourse. Anti-intellectually flooding the discourse with memetic phrases like "It's too early!" only furthers redundant and nonconstructive dialogue.

But that really is the thing, it IS too early. People don't like lockouts because they don't like being forced into static groups and other things that relate to that. But that always ignore the other problems with opening up the content to be ran constantly. Lockouts and the difficulty of the content are meant to slow down progression. They are meant to limit how many people clear during a given time, usually until the next big raid appears. They are used to limit content sellers. And there's more than that. You want to call what i'm saying anti-intellectual, then you need to start looking at the real negatives of your own suggestion before attacking what others are saying.

You really should have been limited to buying 1 sand/oil per week. Coil gives 2 of each per week for eight people. Sure, coil gives other rewards, but the hunt gives crazy myth and soldiery too and has vanity stuff.

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Originally Posted by ispano

Except even Yoshi said that Myth being on par with Allagan was a mistake in one of the letters. It's too early to open the flood gates like this honestly.

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I think it was the real mistake when he said that was a mistake. ^^;

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

I think it was the real mistake when he said that was a mistake. ^^;

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How is it a mistake? The top raid dungeon should drop the best gear, period.

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Originally Posted by Brannigan

You really should have been limited to buying 1 sand/oil per week. Coil gives 2 of each per week for eight people. Sure, coil gives other rewards, but the hunt gives crazy myth and soldiery too and has vanity stuff.

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Cob2, main loot is HA gear, optional SOL upgrade
ST, main loot is ST gear, optional SOL upgrade
They are consistent.

For hunting, sand/oil is the main dish so they were there.
And it was too fun, definitely an END GAME content.

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Originally Posted by Krr

You're right; sand and oil aren't the only thing that drop from ST and SCOB. However, they give what are either inferior (i100 boss cosplay armor), or functionally equivalent (i110 High Allagan) rewards. There is an argument that High Allagan pieces are required for "BiS" gear, however, many Sands of Time and Oil of Time pieces are also BiS slot items, rendering both sets of gear functionally equivalent except for *possibly* High Allagan as cosmetic rewards.

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From a raiders perspective, I totally see where you are coming from. I think that the hunt system is terribly broken and screws over players who absolutely have no interest in doing them yet are forced to do so because that is the only way to progress if you are going for bis/have bad rng in coil. However I think removing lockout right now would not be the best idea.

1. While hunts are basically i110 handouts, killing a boss repeatedly every 5-10 minutes would be even more so

2. Many groups have not cleared t9 as yet. If the earlier turns were farmable, many groups would just get all their members to i110 before attempting t9, kinda trivialising it.

What I would like personally it that they increase the sands/oils drop rate so that we every raider in the group gets 1 oil and 1 sand for clearing coil that week. This would be about the same rate that a casual player can farm for sands and oils from hunts in a week. Give us more options and alternatives for doing things we actually enjoy and get rewarded for it, not run around like drug induced addicts trying to mutilate a poor bird.

Most importantly, have a good deep think about the purpose of the hunt system and ensure the same mistakes are not repeated in future patches.

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Originally Posted by Kagari_Asuha

How is it a mistake? The top raid dungeon should drop the best gear, period.

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At the moment, we got 300cap for myth, YoshiP should had many explaination for the design, but not just said a mistake.
It was very disappointed to know that I was playing on something that was a mistake without more explaination ^^;

The main problem is yes hunting is too beneficial if you only grind 250 seals a day to buy a bloody book then your getting a sands or oil in 3 days. 3 days beats being loot locked out for a week like ct2 and coil 2. I'm not even going to mention the people who hunt all day everyday lol. But yeah hunting pretty much eliminated any reason for people to progress through the second coil as well as anyone working towards an novus weapon. Why would anyone want to spend millions on ridiculous priced materia IV's to upgrade their weapon when in days they can get and unweathered I110 weapon?

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Originally Posted by Buklohn

....Why would anyone want to spend millions on ridiculous priced materia IV's to upgrade their weapon when in days they can get and unweathered I110 weapon?

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I am quite sure one of the reason was a lot of Novus were almost completed right before 2.3 ...^^;
Seriously, the reason not doing Novus just bcoz we foresee it will be able to obtain easier later.
IMO eventually everyone will have his Novus bcoz it would be required for next upgrade.

They should just change sands/ oils to drop for every player in SCoB so a full clear always nets 2 of each per player. Yes you can get more from hunts if that's what you really want to do, but 2 of each per week would be more than enough to finish up whatever i100 gear you still have and start on another class or two. I really don't understand all this 'too soon' crap. When should they have put sands/ oils out from another source? Right after they made them functionally obsolete in 2.4?

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Originally Posted by Nicobo

I am quite sure one of the reason was a lot of Novus were almost completed right before 2.3 ...^^;
Seriously, the reason not doing Novus just bcoz we foresee it will be able to obtain easier later.
IMO eventually everyone will have his Novus bcoz it would be required for next upgrade.

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I feel like everyone is thinking Zodiac weapons will eventually be worth having compared to faster/ better alternative, but as time progresses I feel like at best it will be a decent weapon at all times if you keep up with all of the quests, eventually making it the most grueling grind for a reasonably good weapon.

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Originally Posted by Buklohn

Why would anyone want to spend millions on ridiculous priced materia IV's to upgrade their weapon when in days they can get and unweathered I110 weapon?

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Because in 6 months the next upgrade will be better than unweathered ...keep up with it now shorter grind later on

hunts ruined the rest of the game. end of story. If they even bother to fix it, its already too late.

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Originally Posted by HiPotion

for 750 allied seals you need to kill
- 150 Rabk B
or
- 38 Rank A

if ALL Rank A and B pops in same hours and you kill em all and get full credit = 400 allied seals
then you will have to wait four hours for next pop... of course you wont see em all spawning together, and you wont be able to catch them all

but at best... it's a MINIMUM 4 hours of running + searching + fighting

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As I said it took me 2 hours, by killin all A's and 3 - 4 S in the same day (did that twice). They are online tools that show at which hour mobs are supposed to spawn, and I've just used that.

It's too late imo. They can't possibly roll back anything and curbing any rewards from hunts will incite yet another riot. They should just think on the next step for the next coil before piling anymore stupid moves.

Right now they should just make tome/oil/sand drops in coil drop to everyone in the coil group without rolling (meaning 8 of each per coil finish). Make these items abundant enough for everyone to not care that much and treat it as the myth to coil equivalence like in 2.0 - 2.2. We are almost to 2.4 coil jump anyway.

SE wants to prevent Syrcus Tower goers from getting double upgrades, but there's no problem in them farming 10 sands in a week from hunts. Makes sense, thanks for the brilliant logic.

Am I mistaken or do 99% of people in this thread seriously think that if SE accidentally handed out Sands of time to everyone then they should hand out everything else right now?
If someone gift you something - do you truly expect/ask the person to also give you all the other things you would want right after that?
Say thanks for what SE gave you through hunts already and shut up. Coil gear is meant to be hard earned not just spammed 24/7.

I always thought Hunts took effort to get sands/oils. Then I actually tried it. An hour of Hunting without really trying (kept trying to fish between spawns), and I still got 150 seals. And that was with missing three Bs, two As, and an S, and not getting top rewards on most of them. Also, I hit the soldiery cap from it, where it would have taken me ~3 expert dungeons to do that. It's insane.

I think people forget that Sand and Oil is only a reagent. Not actual gear.

This means that you can stack up on Sand and Oil all you want but without an UAT or Weathered Gear, its pointless to have.
How do you get Weathered Gear and UAT... well you still have to deal with some sort of lockout. ie. 450 Solidery Tomestones per week, 1 UAT per SCOB per week, 1 UAT per ST per week.

The only reason its a problem is because people already have their gear and have to suffer with not being able to get their Weathered gear upgraded because they cant do coils.

Put it like this, those that are complaining about the Hunt system are just people that are bad at doing Coils. Meaning you want something that you dont deserve. Endgame gear is for Endgame... if you're not doing endgame then you DONT need it.


TL;DR REMOVE SAND AND OILS AND THE PROBLEM SOLVED. CASUALS DONT DESERVE ENDGAME GEAR.

I wouldn't mind if they just removed hunts all together.. The whole system breeds laziness and anger for the majority of the participants.

"Oh my god, why didn't you wait to pull?! I was eating Cereal and watching Netflix while waiting for my Linkshell to notify me of a spawn! There's a special place in hell for you!" *MultipleBlacklistsForBeingATerribleandGreedyPerson*

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Originally Posted by NorthernLadMSP

No, I'm in total agreement with this. There should not be an unlimited amount of seals per week. There should be a restriction that allows you enough to get say one sand per week.

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I'm in agreement. The fact that there is no actual cap on a player's ability to personally collect a resource that is limited across all players is part of the reason Hunts are so bad.

That said, it's still "sort of" capped. So long as Soldiery itself is capped, the number of items available to a player to use sands and oil on are capped.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

That said, it's still "sort of" capped. So long as Soldiery itself is capped, the number of items available to a player to use sands and oil on are capped.

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Exactly. You can have 20 sands in your inventory, but it is going to take a long time to get all the gear to put them in.

I think all the people that are asking for nerfs and locks just haven't been able to figure out hunts.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

I think all the people that are asking for nerfs and locks just haven't been able to figure out hunts.

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No, we have.

Some of us run into issues however - such as the fact I play on PS3 and thus the area load times to teleport to hunts all but excludes me from any shot in hell of participation unless one spawns in the immediate area, and that's how fast hunts are claimed and killed on my server.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

No, we have.

Some of us run into issues however - such as the fact I play on PS3 and thus the area load times to teleport to hunts all but excludes me from any shot in hell of participation unless one spawns in the immediate area, and that's how fast hunts are claimed and killed on my server.

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Oh. I guess my server is very cooperative. Every now and then someone pulls early or auto-runs into them. But for the most part, ppl wait until there are 50+ ppl there.

So, yeah, I would be bummed too then.

To everyone who's on a server where people are polite and wait, you're very lucky.

Famfrit is not like that at all.

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Originally Posted by Brine_Gildchaff

Unless of course that mob is an S and you've been blessed by RNJesus. (Apparently they're easier to get log drops from because it actually rolls three times... and you get a log for EACH success. According to my buddies on Excalibur there are already multiple screenshots of obtaining three logs from one S-rank.)

... but that's an outlier, of course. :D

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I"d say this is the main flaw in hunts, if gaining tomes/oils came puely from obtaining allied seals from the mobs then it wouldn't be an issue but once you add a chance at getting a free 250 allied seals from either A or S then it becomes an issue of who is luckier.

They should of just had hunt mobs drop minions, mounts and maybe even the mytho materials, at least then there wouldn't be this unfair skew of gains between players but rather hunts where players could decide what to go after because maybe they want the minion that drops off S rank mor dhona or the mount that comes from the S rank in upper la noscea.

Locked progression... That was over when we hit 110 before hunts came out. Hunts is just for playing catchup/offspec till next patch.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Exactly. You can have 20 sands in your inventory, but it is going to take a long time to get all the gear to put them in.

I think all the people that are asking for nerfs and locks just haven't been able to figure out hunts.

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The argument that you are still capped by soldiery gear, thus somehow making sands/oils less useful is seriously getting old and lame. If you had been diligently capping soldiery since 2.3 hit which isn't hard at all (you just have to do expert roulette 6 times weekly), you have enough soldiery to buy a full set of weathered gear (full left and right side) and more.

Here's the math for the total number of soldiery you need (FULLY GEARED in soldiery + unweathered weapon)

1300+495+825+495+375+825+495+375+375+375+375+375= 6685 tomes

Since patch 2.2 has been out 4 months so if you been capping soldiery every week since March,

450 x 16 = 7200 tomes

You can be in full soldiery gear for your main and still have excess of a few hundred tomes to gear up your alt or whatever. If you manage to farm 7 sands and 5 oils, you can be fully decked out in i110, something that raiders will never be able to do unless you are super lucky with rng drops in coil, and even then going by how sands are rotated among members, most only have 1 or 2 sands before hunts were implemented.

So no, this argument of being capped by soldiery does not hold any merit at all and people need to stop mentioning it as a reason to somehow defend the lack of a cap on sands and oils.

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Originally Posted by Staris

Locked progression... That was over when we hit 110 before hunts came out. Hunts is just for playing catchup/offspec till next patch.

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As far as I know, every other content, coil, ct, soldiery is still locked. Guess which is the white elephant in the room.

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Originally Posted by Garlyle

No, we have.

Some of us run into issues however - such as the fact I play on PS3 and thus the area load times to teleport to hunts all but excludes me from any shot in hell of participation unless one spawns in the immediate area, and that's how fast hunts are claimed and killed on my server.

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this.
every time i try to give it a-go, it always disappoints. <pos>, /tell, teleport, race to location... oooh its been dead for how long?
or even worse, getting there in time but not being able to see/target and get 5 seals....
i really need to upgrade to a ps4 QQ

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Originally Posted by skaterger

TL;DR

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Regardless of how many soldiery tomes a person received, there is still a cap. You can end up with more oils/tomes than you have gear for. That is true. It is valid.

Not to mention, before soldiery existed, everyone was able to purchase equivalent iLVL gear to coil gear with myth. Hunts are helping people be able to do it again. What is such a problem with it?

The biggest issue I have seen with the hunts is the allied seals themselves. From the hunts I have done on Ultros, it is a never ending zerg fest all the time, during peak hours there can be 300+ people zerging every class of monster and even already being in the same zone doesn't mean you'll get credit as no one waits beyond their group and it is usually dead in seconds.

Late night gameplay is a bit better but even at 2-5am there is a steady 100+ people after everything and with the influx of websites tracking all the spawn timers you have people waiting in the zone practically atop the monster already eager to tag and kill it.

Capping the allied seals, at least imo, would decrease the amount of players constantly farming them to those who are only after the myth or are still seeking to hit their 750 allied cap. Allowing those fed up with dungeons to keep farming hunts for myth/sold but making the hunts a reasonable encounter, not the horrid zerg fest it is.

You have a point OP. No matter what people say, hunts take very little effort if you're in a LS or hunting group. Although it can be frustrating with FPS lag/hunts vanishing/early pulls. And yes, I'm saying that walking around the world looking for mobs with the help of a website is not hard work. Even spawning S ranks is meh. I say this as a hunter who's already gotten a few rewards from seals.

I think they should take the weekly limit off ST/CT2 because of hunts. That or cap the seals but I highly doubt they will do that.

The answer is simple, the devs don't think things through when they implement content. They don't think ahead, don't take the playerbase into consideration and how they will react to it, and don't think how it will fit in or compare to other content.

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Originally Posted by Mcshiggs

The answer is simple, the devs don't think things through when they implement content. They don't think ahead, don't take the playerbase into consideration and how they will react to it, and don't think how it will fit in or compare to other content.

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This is why they need to do a public test server. Badly.

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Originally Posted by DeathFiend

TL;DR REMOVE SAND AND OILS AND THE PROBLEM SOLVED. CASUALS DONT DESERVE ENDGAME GEAR.

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I think you forgot that currently some of the gear upgraded with those happens to be BiS for some jobs

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Originally Posted by skaterger

From a raiders perspective, I totally see where you are coming from. I think that the hunt system is terribly broken and screws over players who absolutely have no interest in doing them yet are forced to do so because that is the only way to progress if you are going for bis/have bad rng in coil. However I think removing lockout right now would not be the best idea.

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Personally, I don't care about the notion of 'handout' gear, but I can see the point in trying to keep t9 non-trivial by locking SCOB. I still see no reason why Syrcus Tower is even single-locked when its time:reward ratio is often even worse than hunts and its actual given rewards are statistically inferior. Like, the oil and i100 chestpieces don't just teleport from Xande's corpse into your inventory every time you kill him. You have to get the like 30-50% droprate to happen in the first place, lot against 7 other people, yadda yadda yadda...it's in every way worse than hunting, if you have a good hunt LS and decent bloodied log RNG.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Regardless of how many soldiery tomes a person received, there is still a cap. You can end up with more oils/tomes than you have gear for. That is true. It is valid.

Not to mention, before soldiery existed, everyone was able to purchase equivalent iLVL gear to coil gear with myth. Hunts are helping people be able to do it again. What is such a problem with it?

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That statement just proves my point. The fact that you can easily farm items from hunts without any limit for items which took 4 months to get is just terrible game design. I'm just going to quote for any post that I posted in since its essentially the same thing.

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Originally Posted by skaterger

If you had been diligently capping soldiery since 2.3 hit (you just have to do expert roulette 6 times weekly), you have enough soldiery to buy a full set of weathered gear (full left and right side) and more. I don't really know how to respond to your "20 oil and 20 sands comment" honestly. Do you think 20 sands and 20 oils is a tiny number? Do you know that raiders who have been clearing second coil every week have 2, at most 3 sands/oils in 3 months? And here SE is giving you unlimited sands and oils and you try to make it seem not like a big deal. Do you know it only takes 7 sands and 5 oils to be FULLY decked out in i110, something that less than 1% of the playerbase has before they introduced the hunts? Yet you throw about 20 and 40 sands as if its nothing. You have no idea how coveted sands was before 2.3. Are you f**** kidding me? But if you think about it, the loot handout with hunts has really made the general playerbase think that sands are supposed to be pinatas that drop from the Eorzean sky.

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Originally Posted by Alipoprocks

Not to mention, before soldiery existed, everyone was able to purchase equivalent iLVL gear to coil gear with myth. Hunts are helping people be able to do it again. What is such a problem with it?

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That was crappy design in the first place which is why they didn't do it in 2.2 and why they buffed the ilvl of Allagan weapons to 95. Better gear is supposed to be an incentive to do hard content.

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Originally Posted by Elim

You have a point OP. No matter what people say, hunts take very little effort if you're in a LS or hunting group. Although it can be frustrating with FPS lag/hunts vanishing/early pulls. And yes, I'm saying that walking around the world looking for mobs with the help of a website is not hard work. Even spawning S ranks is meh. I say this as a hunter who's already gotten a few rewards from seals.

I think they should take the weekly limit off ST/CT2 because of hunts. That or cap the seals but I highly doubt they will do that.

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Any sort of response from SE would be welcome at this point. Their continued silence continues to reduce my faith in the game each day and the longer they let things fester, the worse they'll get.

I guess I'm in the minority for not worrying about what others are doing with their time in getting new gear. As someone who runs coil with a static, and likes to share loot, I'm all for another having another way to supplement my own gear (4/5 left side BiS pieces for DRG are Sol) and not have to deal with the (0.125*2) chance once a week at Sands of Time. This gear will be obsolete in a few months anyway, so it really shouldn't be that big of a deal, should it?