nerfed mages and screwed enmity o_o

I agree, taunts, provoke needs more enmity. 1 Aoe cure and mob is off tank right at the moment and tank using provoke or taunt keeps enmity green.

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Originally Posted by Synthesis

I agree, taunts, provoke needs more enmity. 1 Aoe cure and mob is off tank right at the moment and tank using provoke or taunt keeps enmity green.

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Read the posts between your and the OP...

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Originally Posted by popdai

And if you cannot hold hate, tell your mages not to spam Curaga II at the beginning of the fight!

Bye

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That doesnt happen every fight guy, and the outcome is always the same.

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Originally Posted by Synthesis

I agree, taunts, provoke needs more enmity. 1 Aoe cure and mob is off tank right at the moment and tank using provoke or taunt keeps enmity green.

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All taunts and vokes are there for is to increase enmity. No damage or anything else. They definantly need some adjusting, but some people seem to believe you should use 10 different skills from every other class to prevent one heal from ruining you.

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Originally Posted by Reika

That doesnt happen every fight guy, and the outcome is always the same.

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Wich abilities your mages are using do decrease enmity?

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Originally Posted by Kurai

I agree mages did need to be nerfed as they were to powerful, but THM without AoE was a step to far in my opinion

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THM has aoe. They just don't have aoe cures and sacrifice, and what they can aoe is of little import.

IMO, the addition of true aga spells was dumb, when nearly every other spell in the game can be made aoe. They should have just increased the MP costs associated with making spells aoe. It's broken that CON can spam aoe nukes as powerful as they are for as little MP as they cost, but THM is near useless as a backup healer.

The aoe system was innovative but poorly implemented. Just make it like FFXI SCH when using aoe and increase the MP cost per target and allow us to aoe Cure and Sacrifice again. Don't put weird limitations on the system so that some spells can be made aoe, while some are forced single target, and others are naturally agas. Really take the time to balance the system and by extension, the classes.

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Originally Posted by Whax

Wich abilities your mages are using do decrease enmity?

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Conj's in my parties are always using Soughspeak, and according to the txt of the buff, it only works on Conj spells, so no workie for Thaum. But my guess is just using that skill generates enmity, probably more than voke lol!

Soughspeak 60sec recast, 30sec duration.
Warmonger 2m recast, 20sec duration (longer/shorter for non-mrd)
Sentinel - no loner effects enmity

See the problem with this somewhere? If accomplice does work and i'm just doing it wrong somehow, has it become the game breaking skill of tanking? is this correct to do? can I just take vokes off my bar and have accomplice and win?

I seriously don't see the problem with enmity in bosses fights, sure that GLA/PGL is useless in normal mobs that you need to kill fast but not like there is much of a problem with those anyway, now it requires teamwork, if your mages can't do a good job not getting hate then they suck, people need to pay attention to their own enmity too, isn't just hoping the tank can keep hate from anything and everything, the game just isn't easy anymore!

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Originally Posted by Reika

Conj's in my parties are always using Soughspeak, and according to the txt of the buff, it only works on Conj spells, so no workie for Thaum. But my guess is just using that skill generates enmity, probably more than voke lol!

Soughspeak 60sec recast, 30sec duration.
Warmonger 2m recast, 20sec duration (longer/shorter for non-mrd)
Sentinel - no loner effects enmity

See the problem with this somewhere? If accomplice does work and i'm just doing it wrong somehow, has it become the game breaking skill of tanking? is this correct to do? can I just take vokes off my bar and have accomplice and win?

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Tell them to try:

Chameleon: Arch (26) - reduce enmity
Out of sight: Arch 30 - passive - reduce enmity
Collusion: Lancer 30 - transfer hate from next attack to person between you and the mob

That a few ones I remember, people say Chameleon is helping a lot.

Mages work fine. Quit your whining and learn how to play your class.

Enmity, however, is indeed borked. Partially because hate-generating abilities are not generating enough hate, and partially because mages and archers are STILL overpowered.

In addition to this, the Pugilist ability Accomplice does jack squat. This needs adjustment.

While these points are valid to some point... I have to admit that adding 10 Skills from different jobs, to get more emnity gaining abilites, is just wrong.
The idea behind the cross-skill stuff is solely for complementing the class and not to substitue skills which aren't working right. Of course there's the AP limitation so you can stuff your class up with every excisting skill.. but the class itself should be working correctly.

That put some pressure on the jobs again, like in FFXI for example. A NIN without a properly lvl'd Subjob wasn't invited at all. I think SE wants to avoid that. So if someone only Lvl'd a GLD to 50 should be on par with someone who's got every melee job @50.
Of course there will be the theory crafter who will figure out the best combination for each job to maximize the effiency, but the "base" should be worthwhile to play as well.

I don't think the MP cost and the emnity system are pefectly balanced yet, but that will happen in the upcoming patches I bet. SE is working on the battle system overhaul which will take time. :O

Alot of people complaining about provoke not working properly, and I don't think people are reading the descriptions of abilties because they HAVE changed. Taunt is more useful than provoke in a 0 enmity situation right now. Not to mention they still have major adjustments to do come 1.19. Remember this is a patch focused on the functionality of auto attack. Not Armory overhaul.

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Originally Posted by Whax

Tell them to try:

Chameleon: Arch (26) - reduce enmity
Out of sight: Arch 30 - passive - reduce enmity
Collusion: Lancer 30 - transfer hate from next attack to person between you and the mob

That a few ones I remember, people say Chameleon is helping a lot.

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This is going back to what people dont want from the armory system, mixing and matching. It has already been complained a lot that 'being able to customize your character is bad'. but now your saying that we should have to rank these classes up, and grab these skills from other classes. All the anti-armory system people will (and should to avoid hypocrisy) disagree with you. I myself have all except Collusion, but I cant say that for every player in the game. This is all to say your one r50 is useless unless you have everything else to at least R40-48, because there are some badass skills a tank would need from classes at or close to that rank. Defender II, Sac/cure III, taunt/provoke/disorient II.

Also, Collusion is for attacks - heals aren't attacks, Chameleon is 5m recast... I agree everyone should get up to r30 archer for out of sight, but has everyone? do people want to bother under the current system?

Collusion is good for transfering hate. us DD's need to have this, if doesn't have is ok thou.. :\ but if have please add for sake of generating hate for tank.

and yes.. maybe they should rebalance or increase enmity created by the Tank using the skill more higher instead.

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Originally Posted by Reika

This is going back to what people dont want from the armory system, mixing and matching. It has already been complained a lot that 'being able to customize your character is bad'. but now your saying that we should have to rank these classes up, and grab these skills from other classes. All the anti-armory system people will (and should to avoid hypocrisy) disagree with you. I myself have all except Collusion, but I cant say that for every player in the game. This is all to say your one r50 is useless unless you have everything else to at least R40-48, because there are some badass skills a tank would need from classes at or close to that rank. Defender II, Sac/cure III, taunt/provoke/disorient II.

Also, Collusion is for attacks - heals aren't attacks, Chameleon is 5m recast... I agree everyone should get up to r30 archer for out of sight, but has everyone? do people want to bother under the current system?

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The discussion was about keeping enmity. While extremely hard, using a party strategy and executing well with vanilla gladiator skills can be done. People want options to help them, armory is currently the only way to do that. Until another update comes along just rank your PGL up a little and learn what pulls hate (they don't always say enmity on the description). I can take or leave the armory system but I'm not going to gimp out when ranking up for the basic skills takes very little time.

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Originally Posted by Raze

The discussion was about keeping enmity. While extremely hard, using a party strategy and executing well with vanilla gladiator skills can be done. People want options to help them, armory is currently the only way to do that. Until another update comes along just rank your PGL up a little and learn what pulls hate (they don't always say enmity on the description). I can take or leave the armory system but I'm not going to gimp out when ranking up for the basic skills takes very little time.

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Im not against taking skills from other classes either, ive been doing it from the beginning. What I'm trying to get at is we shouldn't have to rank everything up to X rank to be an efficient gladiator, and people should have to rank everything to Y rank to have efficient enmity management. I might as well be a freakin R200 Gladiator.

I'm going to go ahead and bring up the infamous WoW. I played a protection paladin forever. Raiding and difficult encounters requiring you to think and move (out of fire) are nothing new to me. There, you have the proper skills and talents to improve the tanking abilities of skills to be an effective tank. And you dont even need 10 of them. Taunt was a skill that placed you on the top of the hate meter if it worked, and you stayed here unless you stooped paying attention again, thus it wasnt a 'do all' skill. I had crusader strike, shield of the righteous, hammer of righteousness (for aoe tanking), and Consecration (for aoe tanking), Avengers Shield, Several Damage reducing debuffs, one attack increasing (thus hate rate increasing) skill, and not once did i ever need to heal myself to live or increase my enmity. There classes that are DD or heals have skills -of their own- to decrease hate if needed. But often they didnt need to use them, as long as the tank was paying attention and using his attacks.

Here, we dont have all the proper attacks that generate enmity on a lower cooldown. They jacked up heavy slash and heavy stab to the point of not even using, Glads 'enmity increasing' attack takes 2000+ tp to use and will prevent all other tp attacks from being used. Barrage I used for a while to see how it worked with being 4-fold on other classes now, but its 'enmity increasing' factor didn't pull more hate than a circle slash II. Storm's Path got made MRD only, so I cant use that on glad for enmity anymore. Sentinel was good for lowering your enmity loss, but that got taken away. Provoke II and Disorient II don't generate as much enmity as one heal does. Don't be fooled by the 50sec recast on taunt II, its 1m40sec WITH Seasoned Veteran on non-pug, and what pug actually tanks now? People don't sense an issue with where this is going? We shouldn't have to hope 1.18x or 1.19 brings increased additions or changes, they should have had a complete change to these skills and enmity ready for this patch. releasing some of them and not all just broke more than it fixed. These changes were way to pre-mature. They didn't introduce enough equipment or traits that helped tank or help reduce enmity that are SPECIFIC to those classes. What are they going to do when jobs come out? Scrap all of this again? whats going to happen when you cant use X skill from Y class when the job locks it out? I also have to repeat that SE wants classes to be for SOLO. why the hell are they adding, or attempting to add, grouping mechanics to them, when Mr Yoshida said classes are going to be for solo while jobs will be for group?!

Well.... that's not my tanking style whatsoever since the algorithm changed so I really can't comment on the GLA skills that don't work since I barely use them.

Think of this too. Yoshida said he wants it to take 3 month of plaing 2hrs a day to get A class to R50. Now if gladiator cant tank properly by being just gladiator, just using gladiator skills, how long do you think it will take for a gladiator to become a proper tank under that system? How long do you think it will take anyone under that system to form a proper party with the right skills to do any group content?

The answer is way too @&#@$ long.

learn to play the game with some skill please and stop complaining

Reika et al,

You're missing the point of the armoury system. Cross-class skill equipping is central to the way it works and how they're going to design the game mechanics. You shouldn't be just as good at GLA50 with no subs as a GLA50 with ranked up subs. That's not how the armoury system is supposed to work. You get in what you put in. If you can't put in the effort to get appropriate subs, just as in FFXI, then you're going to be gimp, especially when it comes to tanking.

A lot of people are also missing a crucial half of the picture on enmity. A healer should not be able to cure bomb and stay green/yellow. That would be very dull design. Damage mitigation is central to holding hate. You need to be using Stoneskin as much as possible. Start off with Sentinel, Featherfoot, Aegis Boon -> Deflection (with Ambidexterity if it's up), and so forth. I can't stress Stoneskin enough, as it's one of the single best spells in the game post-patch. Not only does this greatly reduce the amount of enmity healers are generating, but it saves them a lot of MP.

This change went from "enmity is a joke" to "enmity takes serious effort" and it's only natural that people will have trouble adapting and will complain that it's not fair. This was a necessary change. You will adapt if you get used to it and put in the effort it takes instead of giving up and hoping it gets nerfed for you.

Lastly, to address the armoury topic one more time, what a lot of people are asking for here is simply not what the armoury system is or was ever intended to be. You're asking for exactly what they've said the jobs system will be: limited cross-class ability equipping with more unique job-specific skills designed for party play.

<3 i love you Raikki, what you say is somehow true as well. People need to learn to fully use their brain to use the skills at hand, i have been a Lancer and using stoneskin, it never struck me to think that way. :3

ok has anyone tried to Provoke After the heal??? i bet thats your solution

tank goes in makes initial hate..hes HP goes down, mages cures tank provokes again
rinse and repeat

save provokes for after the heal
its call party play ppl get Teamspeak or vent and coordinate

or do you old school "<call10> ^-^ Casting Cure2 on <t> b(^.^)d ~~Pew pEw ~" macro

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Reika et al,


A lot of people are also missing a crucial half of the picture on enmity. A healer should not be able to cure bomb and stay green/yellow. That would be very dull design.

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I think the main problem we're seeing is that one single heal, even a level 1 Cure/Sacrifice, generates far more hate than several abilities meant to focus enmity on the user. That's not cure bombing.

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

I think the main problem we're seeing is that one single heal, even a level 1 Cure/Sacrifice, generates far more hate than several abilities meant to focus enmity on the user. That's not cure bombing.

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yes, true, but that what i think Raikki is trying to say, instead of relying on cure, why not trying to reduce the damage the tanker got instead? with a Conj and Thm equipping both Stoneskin should "cure" this problem.

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Originally Posted by Seirra_Lanzce

yes, true, but that what i think Raikki is trying to say, instead of relying on cure, why not trying to reduce the damage the tanker got instead? with a Conj and Thm equipping both Stoneskin should "cure" this problem.

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Remember though, Stoneskin won't last long with a high damage attack! You'll get one hit, or it will completely break through and cancel little to no damage.

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

I think the main problem we're seeing is that one single heal, even a level 1 Cure/Sacrifice, generates far more hate than several abilities meant to focus enmity on the user. That's not cure bombing.

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Once you've built enough hate, that stops being an issue. That's why it's important to use as much damage mitigation as possible, especially to avoid having to cast cures at the very beginning before hate is firmly established. The beginning of fights is definitely the hardest part as far as hate goes, so expect to struggle with it until you start getting a better handle on how to play to the new system. If you do it right, you can end up with a very large lead in hate on long fights.

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Originally Posted by DoubleEcho

Remember though, Stoneskin won't last long with a high damage attack! You'll get one hit, or it will completely break through and cancel little to no damage.

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Still beats taking the damage straight up and costing the mages extra MP + enmity.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Damage mitigation is central to holding hate. You need to be using Stoneskin as much as possible. Start off with Sentinel, Featherfoot, Aegis Boon -> Deflection (with Ambidexterity if it's up), and so forth.

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Thank god someone finally said it. If your tank is taking max damage all the time you're naturally going to lose hate due to the need of cure bombs. A tank's job isn't just to keep hate, it's to keep overall damage taken low. This causes less cures to be needed, more MP supplied, and time for mages to get off an occasional buff.

Harness in the good energy, block out the bad. Harness. Energy. Block. Bad. It's like a carousel. You put the quarter in, you get on the horse, it goes up and down, and around. Circular, circle. Feel it. Go with the flow.

In FFXI I played SCH @ Faffy and Stoneskinga was so overpowered :D Maybe use 1 Con for Mainhealing and 1 Con for Stoneskinspam + Back Up Heal!

The mage nerf was long overdue. The impossibility to run out of mana simply makes for unchallenging gameplay.

Enemity works when the tank knows what he's doing and uses all the tools up his sleeve. Tanks that rely basically only on provoke/taunt will rightfully be marginalized. Taunts that can mitigate damage, use cures at the right time, rotate shield skills and so forth have no problem whatsoever.

It'll be worked out once the job system and battle system changes happen. Right niw even yoshi said things would be umbalanced until those things get worked on the upcoming two patches. We have to use what we until those changes happen.

1. Mages still OP

2. Threat is broken

3. Pro tip: Accomplice

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Originally Posted by AshTS

1. Mages still OP

2. Threat is broken

3. Pro tip: Accomplice

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Mages arnt OP, they're just not as borked as the other classes not to mention they have more control than other classes

1. Mages still OP. You must not cast enough DoTs to understand.

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Originally Posted by Raikki

Damage mitigation is central to holding hate. You need to be using Stoneskin as much as possible. Start off with Sentinel, Featherfoot, Aegis Boon -> Deflection (with Ambidexterity if it's up), and so forth. I can't stress Stoneskin enough, as it's one of the single best spells in the game post-patch. Not only does this greatly reduce the amount of enmity healers are generating, but it saves them a lot of MP.

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I'd also like to add that Sacrifice regen does not generate enmity. The regen alone heals more HP over time than Cure III. Healers need to put more focus on using Stoneskin, Sacrifice, and lower-level Cures while the tanks need to place more emphasis on damage reduction as a means to keep hate.

Provoke is significantly weaker than before. Someone did some testing and found out that Provoke II ~ 600 HP healed. Provoke is on a 20 second timer. This means that someone who is relying only on Provoke to keep hate cannot be healed for more than 600 HP by a single healer every 20 seconds if no additional steps at managing hate are taken.

Aegis Boon, Sentinel, and Deflection are all on a 1 minute timer. Each lasts 15-20 seconds. Try staggering them to have a buff that significantly reduces damage at almost all times. Obsess and Defender can be kept up full time yet some tanks never use them.

If Provoke II ~ 600 HP healed, then it follows that Provoke II ~ 600 damage dealt due to the 1:1 ratio of damage to heals. For regular mobs with low defense, dealing damage is central to tanking and kill speed. You cannot hope to keep hate on a group of mobs with just Provoke/War Drum. A GLA's job here is to initiate and reduce damage at the start. He can only maintain hate against the mob he is attacking.

People need to start using CCs like Sleep to reduce damage taken. Then focus down mobs one at a time. Alternatively, you can have melees each tank a different mob through damage dealt and rely on them to be somewhat self-sufficient on their own heals and damage reduction abilities (Featherfoot, Second Wind, Bloodbath, etc).

The only cross-class abilities I consider essential for tanking can all be obtained very easily:

CON 8 - Cure, Shock Spikes
PUG 20 - Second Wind, Featherfoot, Taunt, Prime Conditioning
MRD 20 - Defender, Disorient, Intimidation

SP from 1-20 is a joke. You could get CON to 8 in half an hour. Other classes to 20 take a few hours.

Accomplice (PUG 30) is mainly good for long fights with its low recast and the ability to reduce healer enmity while increasing your own. You're not gonna notice much using it against regular mobs. Most other abilities I've tried on higher rank classes are only marginally useful.

Spend more time dealing with the changes rather than complaining. MP Costs and hate issues may still need rebalancing but what we have now is much closer to a balanced game than what we had previously.

There is 2 mage classes, and you talk about balance, lmao!

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Originally Posted by Kurai

I agree mages did need to be nerfed as they were to powerful, but THM without AoE was a step to far in my opinion

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i think the problem is that thm lost a lot but didn't gain anything (ok the bit better nukes but not worth mentioning).
Drain II with a lot of mp to use still is a joke and completely useless imho. Con gained direction but is still very unfinished and thm is worse now i think. But the direction in general is very good. I only hope that not only the jobs get more defined and balanced but also the spell animations get more love (much more rather). Looking at some awesome melee abilites then... thm and con... just "ouch", that is not what a spell should look like :)

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Originally Posted by Keith_Dragoon

Did a bunch of leves and grinding earlier with some friends. Tank runs in, voke, disorient and a few other moves, he gets to half health, I cast sacrifice 1 and guess who has the blinking icon?

Yea I died so much due to a cure or sacrifice pulling hate no matter what tank does

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This is sad, wow.

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Originally Posted by Betelgeuzah

The game worked just fine pre-1.18. Sure everything was easy as hell, but it worked!

Y u change it SE?

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Cause easy = boring and boring = people leaving since there's no challenge

Tanks need cure/sac now to maintain hate.

But these are all bugs that can be fixed in time.

What can't be changed in time is the awful direction the game is headed in.

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Originally Posted by Neptune

This is sad, wow.

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The fact that the tank got so low so fast or the fact that those abilities didn't do much? Cover (Has a 100% upkeep) + accomplice makes u a GOD now on gladiator... use those 2 on healer alone and they NEVER get attacked if you know what you're doing xD For the rest of the pt just use normal vokes (inc aoe ones), defensive abilities, and phalanx. Without uber stamina costs and the fact enmity is actually displayed now it's easier than ever to control enmity xD People just suck cause they don't wanna adapt due to being in easy mode for a year and it's something new they have to learn lol

Edit: Plus healing and using stygian spikes/mp siphon on yourself also helps out the healers a TON plus nets you EVEN MORE hate than you know what to do with and keeps your mp high xD