I think it is time to admit the obvious - Echo is an insult to the average gamer.

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Originally Posted by zulu_kulu

SO OP is this your thing now? you are just gonna make a complaint thread everyday?

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I see. He's that sort of poster - "herp a derp, I trolololol people. I is a winnar" sort of muppet. When in-fact, he is a sad person and we should all feel pity for him.

Complaining about echo when you were getting kicked out of nerfed as hell Amdapor Keep strikes me as absolutely hilarious.

Before echo was introduced pretty much every new player was stuck at titan hm.
Why?
Because even if you know the fight 100% and never take any additional dmg from avoidable stuff, you will still fail because your team sucks.

Now with echo 3 players are enough to beat him and players can go on eventually doing new stuff.

There is no echo in t6+.

Why even complain about this really?

I mean the biggest challenge in this game is to avoid the insta-kill mechanics. The times when you die because of a bad healer even in DF are very few and far between.

Gear stats and buffs mean absolutely nothing when standing in a landslide.

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Originally Posted by Sairii

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Originally Posted by Seif

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Let me give you an example.

I am doing X trial wearing Full Green Gear. We get wiped ten times so 10x Echo. And the reason is because my DPS sucks, my gear sucks, my weapon sucks, I don't know my class, I don't know how to rotate, I suck and ect. But on the tenth time, I am so OP that even me can clear the event.

Should I progress to the next group event and wipe the whole group again until we reach 10x Echo? Should I be allowed to wipe others but still clear it up with that buff? Should I have the right to have the worse gear in hard-mode but be able to clear it? Do I have the right to demand not to improve and get carried?

That is the issue. It does not prepare me to face harder bosses and more complex bosses because when the aoe hits me for i.e 3k but the buff gives me 4k I will always not care and always rely on that buff. I personally know already that I need to be geared up accordingly and that is why I will farm to death for that i75 weapon because I do not want "gear" to be an excuse or the "buff" to be an excuse for failing to do my job properly.

If I don't do that and carry on and reach a boss fight where Echo is not there, I will just wipe everyone and say "Sorry guys. I thought there would be a buff in there so I came with my greens and my inexperience thinking I can do this".

Echo does not help the game because it does not prepare me. It does not make me responsible or caring about my own performance or my performance in group because it has taught me to rely on it. Hard-mode should be hard-mode and train people so they understand that some basic requirements are needed to win the fight. From having good gear, to be more aware of adds to ect.

1 you can click it off as someone already pointed out and 2 it's not always a help. I have been in fights where we are all well geared and then echo kicks in and we start pushing phases and then we have to compensate for that, so the echo is not always an easy win.

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Originally Posted by Authority

Echo does not help the game because it does not prepare me. It does not make me responsible or caring about my own performance or my performance in group because it has taught me to rely on it. Hard-mode should be hard-mode and train people so they understand that some basic requirements are needed to win the fight.

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So we should just remove echo so that the 5 players that deserve a win because they execute everything flawless can wipe again and do the stuff another hundred times just because the new people still cannot figure out how to avoid aoes?

And you can see all the abilities, if you died to that then you should be able to remember what it does.
You still learn from it.
But rejoice! You still have titan ex that you need to beat. You still get your wipes.
You also got echo there. Lets see how many weeks it takes you WITH echo.
Like I said. Echo is only in old content.
The developers want you to get through it asap so you can enjoy the new stuff.

To people who think that MMOs are still about time invested or stuff like that, you're either 10 years late or you just woke up from a very long sleep. MMOs now are about accessibility and vertical progression. Vertical progression means the older content is obsolete and totally junk the day a newer content comes.

Then, why would it be allowed to block players anymore ? They made it a roadblock to the rest of the content, and will remove the gate to make a new one next patch, and the patch after that (SCoB access without T5 in 2.4, please look forward to it !). Gating players behind useless trash fights (yeah, an obsolete raid is no more than a trash fight. Leviathan is already on par with T5, expect 2.4 primal to give something better than T5. T5 will be junk in the path to the new obsolete content.) would be a suicidal move.


If you don't like that, please search for a horizontal progression MMO. I'm sure there are some.

(btw, I'd like to add that the echo is basically only a "take 6-18 month of overgear right now" and doesn't help you in any other ways for the fight...)

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Originally Posted by Poringing

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just quoted for the name. Poring love :3

I do not find the echo buff insulting.

SE designed this game so that even the HARDEST content is an intricate part of the overall main storyline -- even raid content (coil). They want all players to enjoy this content... eventually. The way they ensure all players will get to move forward in the storyline is by making fights slightly easier by simulating that player having better gear. Aka, the grind to get gear just to match the minimum dps check of fights (Titan's heart for example) is removed in exchange for the echo buff. It's important to note here that the echo buff will NOT allow you to bypass certain mechanics. The echo buff won't save you from dying to basic mechanics that you need to dodge.

There will always be a tier of 'hardest' fights that they will NOT make easier -- and those fights are 'current content'. You will have many many months to clear the 'current content' before newer, harder content is released and they make the older stuff easier to clear. Just because Titan hard is 'easier' now doesn't necessarily degrade your accomplishments when you first beat the fight. This is really a, "back in my day," argument. "Back in my day, I had to built Titan hard parties for WEEKS just to find people who could dodge!" Well, that's not the current content. Of course it's going to be easier. And you know what's the 'impressive' fight right now? If you are a raider, it's T9 coil. But in a few months, when more coil is released, it won't be seen as that special, just like a Leviathan Ex win might seem unattainable to the 'average' player right now, but it will eventually be met.

There is 'wiggle' room when the echo buff is in play -- that much is true. But it's not always just about the better stats... 'old' content is more widely understood, now.

And if you don't like the echo... just remove it. For the real challenges, enjoy the current content... and the upcoming superhard "Brutal" mode coil (not bluffing -- it was mentioned recently).

The Echo is an insult to decent game design. It's a band aid to help people catch up on content that, probably intentionally, excluded the average player and is excruciatingly difficult with PUG's.

It's just evidence that SE couldn't find real middle ground with it's content, that XIV fails to teach players advanced mechanics, and that short-cycle-content-obsoletion is here to stay.

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Should I progress to the next group event and wipe the whole group again until we reach 10x Echo? Should I be allowed to wipe others but still clear it up with that buff? Should I have the right to have the worse gear in hard-mode but be able to clear it? Do I have the right to demand not to improve and get carried?

That is the issue. It does not prepare me to face harder bosses and more complex bosses because when the aoe hits me for i.e 3k but the buff gives me 4k I will always not care and always rely on that buff. I personally know already that I need to be geared up accordingly and that is why I will farm to death for that i75 weapon because I do not want "gear" to be an excuse or the "buff" to be an excuse for failing to do my job properly.

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Um, this point is fail dude. The more difficult fights in this game are so different from each other, and rely so heavily on unforgiving mechanics, echo isn't going to really help at all until you get the hang of the fights. T5 and Titan EX are notable examples, get back to us when you've cleared those and tell me that the echo didn't turn something exceedingly annoying into something slightly less annoying.

Instead of the echo, I would rather see something like a deadly boss mods add on implemented. I think right now it's pretty commonly accepted that you should watch a video before attempting a fight, so I don't think it would be that much worse if during a fight the game itself just said "Yo, this thing's gonna happen in 5 seconds, get ready to move over there". It would force bad players to know the fight, despite their best efforts of not watching videos or having no ability to remember patterns. And maybe they even learn how to identify patterns or react better for future fights by seeing things more plainly presented in game.

Expecting players to go to some source outside the game is silly. It's why we have quest trackers that tell you exactly where to go now, because 99% of players just looked it up on a wiki anyway. It's just cutting out the middle man. And I'm not saying to do this for all content, just the old content as a way of making it easier.

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Originally Posted by Poringing

Feb -> new
Mar -> newer
Apr -> newest
May+ -> fetus

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this made my day LOL :D

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Instead of the echo, I would rather see something like a deadly boss mods add on implemented. I think right now it's pretty commonly accepted that you should watch a video before attempting a fight, so I don't think it would be that much worse if during a fight the game itself just said "Yo, this thing's gonna happen in 5 seconds, get ready to move over there".

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So you want an addon to play the game for you?.....

You don´t need to watch a guide. You don´t need to do research.
Sure you will probably die if you play half asleep and dont react fast enough.

But its more fun than reading something on your screen so you can go through the content without doing anything.

Bad players are probably still going to get hit by landslides etc.
And your programm cannot tell from which direction levi is gonna jump at you.
Its all stuff you have to learn irl.

The game is fun because its not just faceroll on keyboard.

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Originally Posted by Sairii

So you want an addon to play the game for you?.....

You don´t need to watch a guide. You don´t need to do research.
Sure you will probably die if you play half asleep and dont react fast enough.

But its more fun than reading something on your screen so you can go through the content without doing anything.

Bad players are probably still going to get hit by landslides etc.
And your programm cannot tell from which direction levi is gonna jump at you.
Its all stuff you have to learn irl.

The game is fun because its not just faceroll on keyboard.

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Except most players who know the content well will tell you that it is a faceroll. The only difficulty is having 8 of those players together.

Whether it is fun or not is a separate argument. I don't think it's fun for people laying on the bottom of Titan's arena while the 3 people with echo get them a win. I would like to believe that people want to and can learn and get better.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

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Well yeah it is after you got some exp.

Certainly its not fun for the 5 dead people but they had their chance.

I main healer. I ress alot of players in Trials. What happens after ress?
They die to the same stuff again a few minutes later.

I saw the "old" titan hm. It was a mess. I could have killed people for being that stupid.

It is no fun for the dead people because they died.
But it also wouldnt be fun for the players that did their best but still wiped because people died, thus not getting a win. Over and over again.

OLD titan hm: "I am a good player and can do this fight perfectly but cannot get a win because the other players are bad."
New titan hm: "I am a bad player and because im bad I died but its totally unfair that I got the win. Stupid players that gave their best in order to win, why cant we just wipe 100 times?"

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Originally Posted by Authority

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Please clear Titan EX and Turn 5 before you make that assumption

The average gamer watches a video before fighting anyways because the un-average player kicks them out if they don't do so.
Most people die because they don't know the script. These battles are learned through trial and error and unfortunately the farm mentality doesn't promote that learning anyways.

There's no intelligence to insult if there's no environment to foster it anyways.

This all applies only if your doing these battles through the DF, though. Using a PF to create an environment where your not pressured to 'live up to a mainstream standard' is still an option... a very tedious option though.

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Originally Posted by Sairii

Well yeah it is after you got some exp.

Certainly its not fun for the 5 dead people but they had their chance.

I main healer. I ress alot of players in Trials. What happens after ress?
They die to the same stuff again a few minutes later.

I saw the "old" titan hm. It was a mess. I could have killed people for being that stupid.

It is no fun for the dead people because they died.
But it also wouldnt be fun for the players that did their best but still wiped because people died, thus not getting a win. Over and over again.

OLD titan hm: "I am a good player and can do this fight perfectly but cannot get a win because the other players are bad."
New titan hm: "I am a bad player and because im bad I died but its totally unfair that I got the win. Stupid players that gave their best in order to win, why cant we just wipe 100 times?"

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I can't tell what you are arguing now. First you say you prefer people dying rather than a more informative display of enemy moves, then you say you don't think dying is fun for anyone. You don't want new players to be able to learn and get good, and think they should just be carried through everything? Obviously if they are just dying to the same stuff again they need help learning, why would it be bad for the game to tell them when a landslide is about to come, so maybe they can be ready to dodge?

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

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What I´m trying to say is that the removal of echo would be unfair to those that are actually giving their best.

You don´t need anything to tell you whats going to come. You have enough time to react when the landslide appears.
Ofc dying is no fun, but it is even less fun to wipe because someone else made a mistake.

You talk about learning. But a display telling you what move is about to come isn´t going to teach you anything.
Its like the game playing itself. That would be the ultimate insult to every player.

If you are unsatisfied with your own performance and want to learn more than just go in the fight again.
Nothing is hindering you.

But the removal of echo would hinder players that actually give their best.

He doesnt think echo is too good... he wants an easier fight by taking out difficult mechanics as opposed to have an easier time learning them. Basically just taking landslide and weights out of titan.

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Originally Posted by Sairii

What I´m trying to say is that the removal of echo would be unfair to those that are actually giving their best.

You don´t need anything to tell you whats going to come. You have enough time to react when the landslide appears.
Ofc dying is no fun, but it is even less fun to wipe because someone else made a mistake.

You talk about learning. But a display telling you what move is about to come isn´t going to teach you anything.
Its like the game playing itself. That would be the ultimate insult to every player.

If you are unsatisfied with your own performance and want to learn more than just go in the fight again.
Nothing is hindering you.

But the removal of echo would hinder players that actually give their best.

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You have enough time to react. Everyone is not you. All I am saying is give people more warning, that is hardly the game playing itself.

I have gotten good at Titan HM, but I have sympathy for people I see dying in it. Because I know that when you get knocked off you can't learn anything.

Removing the echo hinders no one, because it doesn't help against the mechanics that are the actual problems people have with the fight. It just buffs the players who can already win without the buff. The last time I did it we won in one go with no buff and only half the party alive at the end.

Is the OP going under the assumption that the ECHO will just keep stacking til you auto-win? It goes in intervals of +5% per three mins of a (usual) 50 min fight. You waste more time building an ECHO than just trying the content. Add to that fact that many players will just quit after a few wipes so IF you do see 15% usually, psychologically, you team is about ready to throw in the towel.

i wish instead of the echo buff they made it so we can meld the elemental resistance to our gear and that help us greatly so if your stuck with content on say titan ex then earth res will help you instead of this echo buff. That way theres a use for the elemental materia so the market does good.

The Echo is not a bad thing.

a) If you can already win without the Echo, it's no problem. You know you can do it, and with the Echo, you can STILL do it, only faster.

b) If you can not win without the Echo, with the Echo you might win. This will continue with each new battle you encounter up until a point where the player yet again can not win because it's too tough for them or the battle doesn't have the Echo implemented yet, and they will be stuck there until said Echo is implemented in the future, while the "better" players will be ahead. The better players will ALWAYS be ahead.

c) This happened to be my case: I already knew how to beat Titan EX months ago, but I could never win because I never found 7 other people who could do it too. Then the Echo came, and I could finally progress.

In conclusion, there is absolutely no negative side effects to the Echo.

As a bonus however, since there are people who apparently care about who beats what and when, every player should be stamped with a date on when they the first time ever beat a dungeon or a primal or whatever, and it if was with or without the Echo, so that everyone can go check them out on the Lodestone, brag about their skills, shun the heathens who dare use the Echo and confirm world firsts.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

As a bonus however, since there are people who apparently care about who beats what and when, every player should be stamped with a date on when they the first time ever beat a dungeon or a primal or whatever, and it if was with or without the Echo, so that everyone can go check them out on the Lodestone, brag about their skills, shun the heathens who dare use the Echo and confirm world firsts.

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would be too dangerous for the community sake. Besides, the only "world first" that matters is the Coil, and Yoshida already gives a word on that when it happens (BG for the 2 releases we had until now)

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

would be too dangerous for the community sake. Besides, the only "world first" that matters is the Coil, and Yoshida already gives a word on that when it happens (BG for the 2 releases we had until now)

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I know it would be bad for the community, but this community is already down the drain... ._. Was trying to find a solution that would semi-please all parties.

Nah. Echo for everyone and everything!

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Originally Posted by Kuwagami

To people who think that MMOs are still about time invested or stuff like that, you're either 10 years late or you just woke up from a very long sleep. MMOs now are about accessibility and vertical progression. Vertical progression means the older content is obsolete and totally junk the day a newer content comes.

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That's why today's "mmos" aren't mmos at all. They're more like "Baby's first mmo" trying to masquerade as a real mmo. Except the developers apparently think the "babies" never grow up, are incapable of learning on their own, and are unable to realize every developer has essentially been releasing the same "mmo" people have been playing since 2007 (WoW BC) with a new coat of paint over and over for the past 7-9+ years.

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Originally Posted by Kat_Manx

I know it would be bad for the community, but this community is already down the drain... ._. Was trying to find a solution that would semi-please all parties.

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This game stopped having a community ever since ARR released. The second you add a cross server duty finder that removes the server-wide consequences for people being pricks the community goes out the window.

The only groups I've ever been in that specifically tried to build up Echo was for Titan EX. Despite me already knowing that Echo is useless for that particular fight.

Naturally, none of those groups ended up winning.

Other than that, people aren't really "relying" on it nearly as much as some people in this thread seem to think.

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Before echo was introduced pretty much every new player was stuck at titan hm.

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Nope. What helped here was the introduction of trials roulette.

Before, hopping into Titan HM on the DF was practically suicide 95+% of the time. Now? The majority of your group will probably be there on roulette, meaning 1) they will likely be outgeared for the fight and 2) they must have completed it at least once before, so they *should* generally know what to expect even if they might not necessarily be pro at it.

Most of my Titan runs now are won on the first try, so Echo isn't even coming into play. Most of the times I don't win on the first try, it was due to a simple rusty dodging mistake, usually on the part of one of the healers, and NOT because the group is undergeared or lacking output. Usually after a "warmup" run to work the kinks out, the group does just fine on the second try, and would have done just fine Echo-less.

Rather than take it as an insult to the player I'd take it as more of an indication the developers are woefully disconnected with the average ability level of their playerbase.

Or, if you're cynical, they artificially overtune fights to hamper progression as a means of drawing out content and then open the floodgates when they're ready for people to progress at their (S-E's) pace.

The point of the Echo is to move the playerbase on the new content. Nobody cares now about titan HM. Is all about ex and second coil. So you got stuck on titan hm before? Now you'll get stuck on the ex version.

Without the echo as the game updates and gets more and more dungeons you risk segregating the playerbase a lot.

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Originally Posted by Chambers

"Echo is an insult to you."

If you don't want the echo buff it can be removed.

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Yeah, you try that and see how quickly you get kicked.

It's old content, and much of the player base wasn't beating it without echo.

Welcome to moderm mmorpg design, where people think they have to get everything even if they suck.

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Originally Posted by Eekiki

Yeah, you try that and see how quickly you get kicked.

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Did that during Thornmarch HM some months ago. No one noticed :I

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Originally Posted by Taruranto

Welcome to moderm mmorpg design, where people think they have to get everything even if they suck.

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I wouldn't say "get everything", but at least having access to new content without having to deal with outdated content is not bad at all.

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Originally Posted by Nestama

Did that during Thornmarch HM some months ago. No one noticed :I

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Ive seen alot of players like you, when the echoe buff went live..
All of them were the players, that failed the most in the group.

No one cares how cool you are, because u rebell against it, even if you are not like the players i mentioned above, you still throw back the group, which is not good enough to beat it without echoe.

I for myself dont need the echo buff, but i love it for existing, when im in trial roulette, with people who dont get past heart phase, or are not capable of killing the infernal nails.

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Originally Posted by Alukah

I wouldn't say "get everything", but at least having access to new content without having to deal with outdated content is not bad at all.

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It is, get good and learn to finish the older content.

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Originally Posted by Mogi

Hahaha that's like saying if ppl like you wan't everything very hard go play
dark souls or :P vampires rain

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Well is there a Dark Souls MMO? havent seen one yet ;_;

But personally i really dont care about Echo much, but only downside with it is that it breeds "not so good players" as they really dont need to push their character/class/personal gaming skills to maximum performance. I would love to see every player casual or not wanting to become best FFXIV player instead taking easier route :(

You do know that you can remove the echo buff, right? :/