I just wanted to point out a double standard...

those that monitor the performance make it so that for them is a NEED to check who is doing what so that they dont have to ask themselves IF their level of play is good, they seek for the culprit to put him down and caress their ego...which is a non sense..the idea to have it is good BUT people arent mature enough (for the majority of them) to actually use such tool with decorum.

People forgot what ti is to work in group, people join a party to be solo in there and only them matters most arent capable to see the great picture and udnerstand that no matter what, you all will have a good day, a bad day that some are slower, some faster, the power of a group is to actually be able to compensate the weakness to win and not tool for this is needed, the only tool you need is a piece of brain, which most lack when they enter this game *lol*

Mei

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadana

As mentioned earlier, saying any player sucks/using abusive language can lead to a GM report; saying that player X may need to work on learning their skills is okay (constructive criticism); using a parser to tell a dps that they aren't good enough can lead to a ban. It doesn't even matter if you said it in a nice way; that program is against ToS. Period.

Part of the problem is when you have an ilvl 70 dps and an ilvl 100 dps in the party. Using a parser to determine whose dps is too low really won't work here. The guy in DL is gonna be shat upon for no other reason (probably) than he is in the process of upgrading his gear.

Those who suggest we have parsers available to improve our dps output... you do realize that many of those who have weak dps and good gear haven't even taken the time to learn their skills? What makes you think they will understand a parser much less take the time to actually look at it?

---

- We're saying that using a parser shouldn't be against the ToS.

- Players who understand the core game mechanics and stats will take item level into account.

- The people who have taken the time to learn their rotation will be the ones that will find a DPS meter useful. And even those still learning, as they can use it to determine if their rotation is optimal or not by giving them a way to measure it's output. So it technically could HELP them learn.

Don't be against a parser, just because you believe that a certain amount of people don't understand how to play the game. That's kind of belittling the player base, anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

It would show you how many dmg you did to work on your rotation, like every other inofficial parsers. Or exist already parsers that show how many AoE you dodged?
What you mean is working on the tactic and mechanic, where you don't need a parser for it, only knowledge and communication.

---

Well. What I mean is that there's no fights where you can just sit on the boss 100%, never having to move out of an AOE, change targets to DPS an add, etc. A target dummy doesn't have the added stress of having to deal with these mechanics.

A dummy's a great way to see if your rotation is optimal. However, when you're actually doing a boss, you'll have added stress to stay alive by avoiding AOEs, etc. This can make you have errors with your rotation, which lowers your DPS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiggy

You seem to assume that people who are skilled and pay attention to numbers are 100% bad people who only do it to be elite.

Some nice people just like playing well and helping other people play. Not everyone is a horrible person who only cares about their e-peen.

Having a high DPS output does not automatically make you an elitist.

---

Exactly. I, personally, have ran into a s surprising amount of elitists that where super rude, but never once actually talked about my damage output. We'll have elitists regardless of whether there's an in-game meter or not.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MeiUshu

those that monitor the performance make it so that for them is a NEED to check who is doing what so that they dont have to ask themselves IF their level of play is good, they seek for the culprit to put him down and caress their ego...which is a non sense..the idea to have it is good BUT people arent mature enough (for the majority of them) to actually use such tool with decorum.

---

You seem to assume that people who are skilled and pay attention to numbers are 100% bad people who only do it to be elite.

Some nice people just like playing well and helping other people play. Not everyone is a horrible person who only cares about their e-peen.

Having a high DPS output does not automatically make you an elitist.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Althea

- We're saying that using a parser shouldn't be against the ToS.

- Players who understand the core game mechanics and stats will take item level into account.

- The people who have taken the time to learn their rotation will be the ones that will find a DPS meter useful. And even those still learning, as they can use it to determine if their rotation is optimal or not by giving them a way to measure it's output. So it technically could HELP them learn.

Don't be against a parser, just because you believe that a certain amount of people don't understand how to play the game. That's kind of belittling the player base, anyway.

---

But isn't this exactly what SE is thinking? :O

They don't want to add a parser because of the potential for abuse... or more specifically, using it against others.
I personally don't mind some sort of parser that gives hard numbers. I welcome suggestions and always try to improve. I do not, however, put up with any trash talking (along the lines of "Just uninstall the game, you suck.")

I would love to believe the entire player base is capable of figuring things out but it is not unusual for me to see things such as "What is enmity?" and "There's job quests?" from level 50s. ><'

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sadana

But isn't this exactly what SE is thinking? :O

They don't want to add a parser because of the potential for abuse... or more specifically, using it against others.
I personally don't mind some sort of parser that gives hard numbers. I welcome suggestions and always try to improve. I do not, however, put up with any trash talking (along the lines of "Just uninstall the game, you suck.")

I would love to believe the entire player base is capable of figuring things out but it is not unusual for me to see things such as "What is enmity?" and "There's job quests?" from level 50s. ><'

---

I understand their concerns with abuse. And I do certainly believe there will be a few instances of it involving actual DPS numbers. But it's probably going to be from the people who are already elitists, or trolly. In which case it wouldn't really change anything, just the subject matter; either way it'd still be abuse.

However, I feel like the positives outweigh the negatives. People would have a tangible value to work with to improve their own DPS, and give raid leaders an easier way to measure people's performance, so they could make group composition optimizations, etc.

I'm the guild master, and raid lead of my group on another game, and I can tell you - having a DPS meter is literally invaluable to keeping my group optimal. If I can tell somebody's under performing with their current gear, I can point them in the right direction to improve it. This literally only matters because the fights in that game, and in FFXIV, both have DPS requirements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluevann

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time...

---

The rest of your post I agree with, but lets look at some examples where you don't have those 2 extra minutes (or 30s, or 10s).

T1: ADS has an enrage (although has anyone ever actually seen it?), have to deal enough damage so that damage stacks don't get too high/have to kill cad splits at similar times
T2: The entire turn has an enrage, even if its one that you can heal through.
T4: 60 seconds to kill a wave of mobs before the next wave drops.
T5: 13-minute encounter enrage, conflags, snakes, dreadknights.
~~~
T6: Not killing center bulbs fast enough can disrupt the fight, killing hornets before they go postal, final phase burn strategy, final phase superslug strategy.
T7: 11-minute boss enrage, soft enrage on heavy damage from adds
T8: 11-minute boss enrage, skipping phases through high dps can be extremely beneficial
T9: 13-minute boss enrage, killing both sets of golems in time for megaflare, only having 2 ghosts during heavensfall phase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluevann

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

---

What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

I have been bitched out and called a crap WHM because the DPS are dragging the fight out so long I can not maintain MP to heal everyone.
I have also been yelled at for calling vote abandon on Copperbell (Hard) because the boss was at 30-40% HP when we ran out of stones. After trying it 3 times. The other 3 people could not get a clue they were seriously under geared and would not hear anything I had to say about it. Needless to say I ate the 30 min.

Not to mention doing 30 runs of Titan (Hard) in one weekend (all failing at the heart) I can now tell whiten 30 seconds of the fight starting if the DPS is up to snuff to kill the heart.

So yeah. There is more weight on the DPS to clear content than there is on the tank and healer. Are the tank and healer off the hook? No. But DPS matters more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by necrosis

What if that extra "2 minutes" is what causes the party to wipe because the WHM (even if at the top of their game) can not heal for that long?

---

Not to mention forcing the rest of the group to pick up the slack for that person, ie doing more work. The other thing people forget is that, yes, you can notice when DPS is slow as a group. But when you have 2-4 DD, and they all look like they're doing everything right, how do you know which one is holding you back? People say enmity, but that's already known to be bunk due to enmity reducing abilities. I mean, hell, the good DPS could be using Quelling and have less enmity than the "bad" DPS and would then get called out for being the one playing poorly.

So, yes, it is somewhat of a double standard. But people don't actually care about that, they only care that someone might get called out and "harassed" which happens anyways.

I'm so tired of folks crying about being "harassed". Raiding content is not Hello Kitty. If you play well you don't get called out on it. The difference between 200 dps and 475 dps is HUGE. That person needs to be told they have to improve. The difference between 450 dps and 475 dps is negligible on all but the hardest progression content, and no pugs are on the bleeding edge of progression where that kind of difference matters. In those cases you are in a progression guild and you relinquished your "right" to complain about "harassment".

This care bear attitude for the rest of the pug content that some players have needs to be kept in check. Forcing other players to waste their time because you are afraid to tell someone they are holding the group back is just much harassment if not more. I agree that players should be kind to one another, but that doesn't mean we should pretend that 200 dps when the average is ~400 should be perfectly acceptable.

I never get this neither. You have to remember there are twice as many DPS to tank/healer so to single out the ones doing bad is relatively harder to see. Sure you can say dps is slow, we're moving phases too slow but Who? Who is doing low dps? Sometimes you can't afford that extra 10/30 seconds or 2 minutes. For example, if DPS was higher in t9, you would be able to do 4 or 5 stardust instead of 6 which makes the golem weaker than they are. Then you have to DPS 3 30k HP golem in 65 seconds then another set of those in same 65 seconds. If someone was doing 100 dps, it means the other DPS has to deal 428 DPS EACH. Tell me how that is fair to the 3 people that have to carry the one person doing bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Althea

- We're saying that using a parser shouldn't be against the ToS.

---

This is my beef with SE. Their stance on parser programs is absolutely nonsensical. We even have training dummies in multiple areas of the game. What other purpose do these dummies serve than to measure damage per second? Yet when we use programs that allow us to do exactly what those dummies are made for, it's suddenly a bannable offense? I will never understand.
I just wish they'd release their API already so players can create parsers that even console users can take advantage of, creating an even playing field for all players of this game.

Let's remove tells in the game because RMT can abuse and harass players. :(

I've never needed a parser. Once you've played all the classes long enough you can pretty much tell when someone is playing a class incorrectly. When you take pride in how you perform on a given class, it just plain hurts to watch someone play it terribly. If you're able to offer constructive advice in a sensible manner, and the player still doesn't want to change what they are doing (or is abrasive about it), the best course of action will always be to just leave, or not party with them again in the future. Regardless, outside of a few turns in Coil, there isn't anything in the game worth arguing over, as it's all pretty easy, even when a poor player is making it more of a challenge.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

We even have training dummies in multiple areas of the game.

---

I personally feel that some things were copied from other games just to give the illusion of being a fully modernized mmo. They aren't terribly useful except for maybe getting used to a rotation that may or may not actually be efficient. There's other things as well, but I don't want to get off topic on a "wtf are you doing, SE" rant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vangl

I didn't say notice. I said to give them criticism about it. There's free reign in saying OMFG HIS HEALER BLOWS. Or SCREW THIS WHM WHO CAN'T HEAL! But god forbid you inform someone they are doing 85 dps in t5, you are at risk of getting banned.

---

I think you're missing the point that by doing this, you can probably be investigated for using a parser and it sounds like you just so happened to be using one.

I've told people about numbers before, but it was based off their flying text. Maybe you were doing that too. But you've basically fessed up about using a parser lol.

Also, maybe you weren't banned for the parser. Maybe you used some words that weren't tolerated :/ so someone felt like getting you banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Souljacker

They aren't terribly useful except for maybe getting used to a rotation that may or may not actually be efficient.

---

What more do you want out of a training dummy? That's exactly what they put them in there for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rex

I think you're missing the point that by doing this, you can probably be investigated for using a parser and it sounds like you just so happened to be using one.

I've told people about numbers before, but it was based off their flying text. Maybe you were doing that too. But you've basically fessed up about using a parser

Also, maybe you weren't banned for the parser. Maybe you used some words that weren't tolerated :/ so someone felt like getting you banned.

---

You are assuming I'm here complaining about getting banned? I've never even banned or even received a warning. I don't use parsers, and I try to avoid any conversation in game involving them, and this thread is pointing out why it's ridiculous. I'd love to get a parser and be a total nice guy about it. Like if someone didn't want to listen if I nicely said something, then whatever, but the fact remains that even talking about one, regardless of intentions, gives one a risk of being banned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Althea

That mimics boss mechanics such as moving out of AOE, target switching, AOEing adds, etc?

---

That mechanics will only slow down your best dps. If you make up on paper a good rotation with 1000 dps on the static target, it surely will slow down because mechanics, but is still better than start with a messed up 300 dps rotation, that mechanics can only make it worse.

I'll definitely report anyone who tells me my DPS is low :D

It's really not that hard to tell which DPS is pulling their weight unless you have multiples of one class and sometimes not even then. Just look at the buffs on the party and the debuffs on the enemy...
Can you see Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust? Is the SMN DoT'ing, Baning and Festering? Archer using AoE's, DoTs and Bloodletter? BLM flaring? Do you see explosions regularly? You can even tell which MNK is kickass by seeing whether they change stances for certain parts of the fight.

You honestly don't need a parser at all.

Parsers are of the don't flame don't get banned type of rule. Officially, SE takes the stance that they are a no-no, but that doesn't mean that they'll come down hard on you if they find out you're using one. Outside parsers, as others have said, there are clearly times where it's noticeable that the DPS needs to pick up the slack.

People keep citing coil and primals, which are good examples, but because DPS is spread out amongst 4-5 DPS, it's hard to pinpoint who isn't pulling their share in some instances.The 4 man groups are, perhaps, where SE could do a better job of providing DPS training opps.

Off the top of my head, the only real "check" is HM Haukke before last boss eats add. Even then, a healer can heal through the damage. AK's Demon Wall used to be the first real DPS check.. but I recently ended up in there for a myth book (been several months since I had been there), and that dungeon was nerfed pretty heavily. There aren't even bees (I don't think) anymore on wall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

It's really not that hard to tell which DPS is pulling their weight unless you have multiples of one class and sometimes not even then. Just look at the buffs on the party and the debuffs on the enemy...
Can you see Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust? Is the SMN DoT'ing, Baning and Festering? Archer using AoE's, DoTs and Bloodletter? BLM flaring? Do you see explosions regularly? You can even tell which MNK is kickass by seeing whether they change stances for certain parts of the fight.

You honestly don't need a parser at all.

---

Are you honestly expecting someone to keep track of every single skill every dps in your party is using? That is absolutely ridiculous to expect of people who are busy pulling their own weight and doing their own job right in a fight, especially when such fights can last over 10 minutes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Just look at the buffs on the party and the debuffs on the enemy...

---

You can only see 5 buffs/debuffs total on the party list. Protect, Stoneskin and Galvanize count and has priority over individual buffs.
Edit: Medica 2, Regen, Whispering Dawn, Fey Illumination, Fey Covenant, Fey Glow, Fey Light all have priorities over individual buffs. Focus Target has the same 5 buffs/debuffs limitation so unless you're sitting there having one person targeted, you'll never see all of them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Can you see Chaos Thrust and Heavy Thrust?

---

A dragoon spamming Chaos Thrust combo would still be doing subpar DPS even with Heavy Thurst on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Is the SMN DoT'ing, Baning and Festering?

---

This still doesn't mean they're doing good damage. Are they popping Raging Strikes when possible? Are they using Contagion? Bane and Fester are easy to tell but that just means they're using abilities they have. Do you look at the pet too to see if the pet is not just doing auto-attack?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Archer using AoE's, DoTs and Bloodletter?

---

Archer's AOE are very easy to spot but did he pop B4B, IR, Hawkeye or any of the buffs before using it? Just because it is used doesn't mean he's doing enough damage. Same thing with DoT. Is that DoT buffed or not? Bloodletter has no special effect IIRC. Tell me how you spot that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

BLM flaring? Do you see explosions regularly?

---

Same thing with Summoners. Are those flare buffed or unbuffed? Is it in Astral Fire or Umbral Ice? Which stage of AF and UI is it in? Even then, it doesn't mean they're doing maximum DPS as you also have to track how long they are in UI phase, how much movement they're doing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

You can even tell which MNK is kickass by seeing whether they change stances for certain parts of the fight.

---

Changing stances is as easy as hitting the abilities. It has nothing to do with being good or not. This on top of MNK having a separate buff icon for the stances sometimes throw off GL icon on the party list which don't allow you to monitor if their GL3 is always up or it's down several times. Then comes the question: are they hitting from the right sides of the boss? are they missing their auto-attack? are they refreshing dot too early or it's never up at all?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

You honestly don't need a parser at all.

---

If you can track all that, it still doesn't mean they have enough DPS to beat the fight. And really if you can track 4 other people's buffs, debuffs, timings and all that good stuffs, they should put you into a research facility. :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Macka

You don't get banned for telling them they dps is low. You get banned by telling them they dps is low because they only doing 200dps instead of 475. Get your facts right. Same if you tell a healer their numbers there is no double standard.

---

Basically this. Long as your vague they can't touch you. Though then of course someone is going to come back at you with "what proof do you have that I can't play my class"

Your dps is low.

Oh yeah? What proof do you have?

None. (Gets reported for harassment)

You were pulling only 150 DPS. (Gets reported for harassment with 3rd party programs)

Basically, bads wanna stay bad and gonna stay bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OPneedNerfs

Your dps is low.

Oh yeah? What proof do you have?

None. (Gets reported for harassment)

You were pulling only 150 DPS. (Gets reported for harassment with 3rd party programs)

Basically, bads wanna stay bad and gonna stay bad.

---

No punishment is going to be given out for saying "dude you suck" (insert as many curse worse as you want)

Harassment is repeated. If you say something once or twice in the dungeon nothing will come of it. Now if you go on for 10 minutes about hwo bad they are then yea your likely going to get punished.

We had a drg last night in stone vigil we ended up kicking because he wasn't playing his job right. I asked him nicely why he was only using one skill over and over and over and not moving around at all for his skills.

Don't worry about it he told me. Well here's the thing, the mobs were taking twice as long to kill as they should have, so I was worried about it. Next set of mobs I asked him again, saying he wasn't optimizing his dps and we were being hobbled by his lack of caring.

Are you running a parser? How do you know what my damage is. If you are I'm reporting you and you'll get banned. I play the job how I want.

No parser here, but the other two members were in my FC and I know they were playing their jobs correctly. It would have been nice to give this guy some hard data as to just how bad he was doing, but alas parsers aren't allowed. This guy's behavior while not the norm would be a great reason to have an in game dps meter to show just how badly he was doing. In the end after refusing to be a team player he actually went afk no warning. Vote to kick initiated.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Nadrojj

We had a drg last night in stone vigil we ended up kicking because he wasn't playing his job right. I asked him nicely why he was only using one skill over and over and over and not moving around at all for his skills.

Don't worry about it he told me. Well here's the thing, the mobs were taking twice as long to kill as they should have, so I was worried about it. Next set of mobs I asked him again, saying he wasn't optimizing his dps and we were being hobbled by his lack of caring.

Are you running a parser? How do you know what my damage is. If you are I'm reporting you and you'll get banned. I play the job how I want.

No parser here, but the other two members were in my FC and I know they were playing their jobs correctly. It would have been nice to give this guy some hard data as to just how bad he was doing, but alas parsers aren't allowed. This guy's behavior while not the norm would be a great reason to have an in game dps meter to show just how badly he was doing. In the end after refusing to be a team player he actually went afk no warning. Vote to kick initiated.

---

Good on you for booting the guy.
From what he was saying back to you it's almost as if he was intentionally out to report people who might use parsers or care about the damage of dps players by baiting people with their low performance. It wouldn't surprise me with how militant some people are against parsers in this game's community (you only need to look in this thread). Sad times we live in when doing your job well is considered something negative, and any amount of advice to improve your game is seen as harassment.

I don't need a parser to tell me that I run out of MP healing the tank in the first SR pull in Brayflox because the DPS didn't kill fast enough. I have no add ons of any kind, wouldn't even know what to do with them. When DPS sucks, it's pretty obvious.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JillyBean

When DPS sucks, it's pretty obvious.

---

Except it's not so obvious to see which DPS sucks. Is that so hard to grasp? Would you replace 3 people doing 400 DPS because another guy doing 100 DPS is dragging the whole team down? And if you think it's easy to tell who's not pulling weight, see my response above.

I think one of big issues that this game has is the Player's expectation that everyone else should play on the same level as them. It always amuses me that once a small fraction of the community gets the harder content on farm-status (i.e Titan Ex, Turn 5+, etc), you'll start seeing all the comments about how this content is damn easy! And how can you not dodge <whatever> flawlessly!. This has a tendency to breed impatience, and annoyance whenever you're thrown into a dungeon with someone who isn't up to your snuff.

We all come with our own skill levels, and there are a ton of possible reasons. Perhaps they are having an off day, maybe this is someone's kid who is just starting with his first MMO and really has no idea how the job works, maybe they don't research everything out the ass (as people seem to expect) in order to play a simple online game, maybe they really are just a troll, who knows! I like to give people the benefit of the doubt as it's far too easy to upset yourself assuming the worst.

And regarding why Parsers would not be good - people in this game can be absolutely vicious when they simply think you're not holding your weight. Imagine if they have actual data to back this up? If you want to guarantee you'll have an awesome group every time you do anything, then make a very select LS, make friends who have skill. Don't expect the DF masses to have the skill you're looking for and then take it out on them when they don't.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Adol

Are you honestly expecting someone to keep track of every single skill every dps in your party is using? That is absolutely ridiculous to expect of people who are busy pulling their own weight and doing their own job right in a fight, especially when such fights can last over 10 minutes.

---

For debuffs on the enemy you will see them naturally by keeping track of your own debuffs. It's all visual, it takes less than a second to note the little icons for everyone else. And sometimes you should be following them naturally anyway, SCH/SMN should be watching for Antibody, and BRDs should note when a DRG is using Disembowel (if not they should ask them to work it into their rotation).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemon8or

You can only see 5 buffs/debuffs total on the party list. Protect, Stoneskin and Galvanize count and has priority over individual buffs....

...If you can track all that, it still doesn't mean they have enough DPS to beat the fight. And really if you can track 4 other people's buffs, debuffs, timings and all that good stuffs, they should put you into a research facility. :rolleyes:

---

Most DPS won't have SS up except at the beginning of the fight. Even if all three of those were up constantly you'd still be able to see two other buffs. It's how I know a tank is rotating through their defensive buffs when I play SCH and not just leaving me to brute force heal through everything. And if anyone is going to have all those buffs up nigh-permanently throughout the fight it's the tank.

It doesn't require you to watch the party list like a hawk, but it is a good idea for DPS to glance over occasionally. BRDs and SMNs should already be doing this since they have a lot of support abilities. Then you just note whether you frequently see people buffed or not. I honestly just thought of that as normal gameplay. I "double-check" the party list no matter what role I'm playing because it just...makes sense.

Between that and the DPS that can't dodge you should be able to pinpoint the weak points in your party. If you're playing in a static or with an FC member you do 4-man content with it should be even more apparent.

*Also for MNK I meant switching between Fists of Fire/Earth/Wind not GL stacks. GL stacks don't really mean anything, haha. I met a MNK who would switch to Fists of Earth for big unavoidable AoEs and I was like "omg duh, why didn't I think of that!?" Ever since then I glance at the MNK in my party during Geocrush/Hellfire etc. I don't hold it against them, but it kind of helps distinguish the cooler MNKs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bluevann

There is quite a difference between a healer who can't keep the tank alive and a DPS who takes two minutes longer to win a fight. One does not bring the party to the victory. The other does, but may take a little extra of your precious time.

---

Instances where taking extra time to kill things potentially leads to a wipe:

Haukke Manor (final boss adds)
Sunken Temple of Qarn (bees, wespes, verges)
Aurum Vale (final boss adds)
Wanderer's Palace (final boss stalkers)
Amdapor Keep (final boss pillars)
Copperbell Mines Hard (final part of rock-clearing phase, bombs on the bridge boss, final boss worm, potentially even the bomb on the spriggan boss)
Haukke Manor Hard (final boss adds)
Lost City of Amdapor (final boss doors)
Brayflox Longstop Hard (final boss bomb)
Hydra (Wyvern buffs)
Titan Hard (heart phase)
Thornmarch (have to kill X number of moogles)
Garuda Extreme (must be able to kill sisters or wipe)
Titan Extreme (heart phase, egis, super bombs)
Ifrit Extreme (nails, hard enrage)
Leviathan Extreme (fear add, hard enrage)
LotA (skellies, Atomos adds, bomb, KB adds)
Turn 1 (the longer the last half of Cad is alive, the worse)
Turn 2 (even enraging, healers don't have infinite MP)
Turn 4 (add buildup from hell, or a super-charged Dread)
Turn 5 (conflags, snakes, dreads, hard enrage)

. . .and I'm not even in SCoB to comment on those.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Most DPS won't have SS up except at the beginning of the fight. Even if all three of those were up constantly you'd still be able to see two other buffs.

---

I edited some more skills that the buff icon have priorities over individual buffs. Even then MNK has Fist abilities and forms icon that can take up 2 slots, SMN has Aetherflow, BLM has AF/UI that tells almost nothing about their abilities to do damage.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

4-man content

---

4-man content it doesn't matter who's doing what really. They're tuned so you can easily pass.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Also for MNK I meant switching between Fists of Fire/Earth/Wind not GL stacks. GL stacks don't really mean anything, haha.

---

If you really think GL do not mean "anything", I have bad news for you. If you think +9% damage dealt and +5% attack speed for each GL stack, up to 3 times, doesn't mean anything while being so amazed towards the stances switching, you don't know monk as much as you think you do. Sure 10% damage reduction during unavoidable damage is nice but it's nothing that you can't get healed back just from the ongoing heal to the whole party. Monk has average magic defense so those skills don't really hurt much. For example, I'd rather use Fist of Fire, stand around where Titan lands for Geocrush cause I know I won't die and keep my Greased Lightning 3 (+27% damage +15% attack speed) then risk going into Fist of Earth (-10% damage received) and risk either lose GL3 or do 5% less damage on my next attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Viridiana

. . .and I'm not even in SCoB to comment on those.

---

Let me fill in for you.
Turn 6: Not killing bulbs leads to moving the boss in undesirable places leading to either people getting eaten -> boss do more damage or they take too much damage from briar + vine = wipe.
Turn 7: Not killing adds fast enough makes it ranging from extremely difficult to deal with voice/shriek to wipe when prosector casts hysteria on the tank and he voice you or Melusine absorbs all the health the prosector has. Boss has 11 minutes enrage.
Turn 8: Boss has 11 minutes enrage. Tanking dreadnaughts for too long increase chances of tank getting 1-shot if solo-tank or you don't do enough damage on the boss.
Turn 9: Boss has 13 minutes enrage. Not killing golems before another set/boss do megaflare = instant-wipe. Not getting boss to 47% in phase 3 before third heavensfall = most likely wipe. Boss has a soft enrage mechanics called Bahamut's Favour.
Also, Thornmarch EX: If you don't kill all the moogles at a good rate, you can't damage the king = wipe.

I'll also add that the dreadnaughts in turn 8 have a enrage as well. Flamethrower deals 11kish damage which is pretty much a oneshot in addition to all the damage getting thrown around from the dread.

Turn 6 in addition has bee's must kill them or bee will enrage and kill players one by one until it dies. 3rd phase has the slug/slime mechanic thats a dps check, basically you need to either Destroy raffleshia before 10 stacks of acid ooze builds up or do super slug and kill it before it aoes the entire party for 30k damage and then kill raffleshia before 10 stacks build up.

Turn 9 also has another dps check the ghosts, need to kill em before players gerot twist debuff reach a certain stack or they will die since they can't cure themselves of the status without running into the lights that are droped by the ghost.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lemon8or

I edited some more skills that the buff icon have priorities over individual buffs. Even then MNK has Fist abilities and forms icon that can take up 2 slots, SMN has Aetherflow, BLM has AF/UI that tells almost nothing about their abilities to do damage.

4-man content it doesn't matter who's doing what really. They're tuned so you can easily pass.If you really think GL do not mean "anything", I have bad news for you. If you think +9% damage dealt and +5% attack speed for each GL stack, up to 3 times, doesn't mean anything while being so amazed towards the stances switching, you don't know monk as much as you think you do. Sure 10% damage reduction during unavoidable damage is nice but it's nothing that you can't get healed back just from the ongoing heal to the whole party. Monk has average magic defense so those skills don't really hurt much. For example, I'd rather use Fist of Fire, stand around where Titan lands for Geocrush cause I know I won't die and keep my Greased Lightning 3 (+27% damage +15% attack speed) then risk going into Fist of Earth (-10% damage received) and risk either lose GL3 or do 5% less damage on my next attack.

---

I dunno what to tell you, I see Raging Strikes, Thundercloud/Firestarter procs, Straight Shot procs, Heavy Thrust and other buffs in the party window when I look up there. Maybe I just have lucky timing? But it's something I do pretty regularly and I've coached people in dungeons based on what I see there e.g. telling a LNC to use Heavy Thrust for the 15% damage boost because he never had it up.

I mentioned 4-man content because it's far easier to tell when a DPS is lagging there. And if you do 4 man content with an FC mate who isn't great, it's probably that same member in your static not pulling their weight. Obviously you can ignore this if you only run 8-man raids with your FC or don't overlap dungeons with static members. The DPS checks are otherwise negligible in 4-man dungeons unless you're not overgeared.

To clarify, I meant they don't mean anything in telling you that someone is doing good DPS, since like you said it happens automatically as you punch/kick things. A MNK that more actively switches between fists (doesn't have a CD or reset your combos so why wouldn't you?) is showing that they go the extra mile and are most likely putting extra effort into the rest of their playstyle i.e. probably not slacking in the DPS department. Especially if you opt to get stomped by Geocrush to maintain GL; from a healer's perspective the people who don't group for heals really annoy me, but I give them a pass if they at least make an effort at mitigation (Manaward, FoE). Lastly, I do think MNKs are hardest to tell whether they're doing good DPS outside of simply seeing whether they are doing positionals correctly.

In summary, I generally have no problem spotting the weak links in my group. I don't need a parser to do so. So from my perspective I think it would be rather unnecessary and only exacerbate PF hostility.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by givemeraptors

In summary, I generally have no problem spotting the weak links in my group. I don't need a parser to do so. So from my perspective I think it would be rather unnecessary and only exacerbate PF hostility.

---

Would you like a cookie? Clearly it isn't that easy for everyone else to multitask as well as you. You don't need to dash everyone's opinions to the ground because you're able to do something they can't.

Everyone has different skills and abilities. Try to put yourself in their shoes for a change and try to understand why these features would be useful to them even if they aren't useful to you. You aren't the only one playing the game. A lot of people need to remember that more often.

This isn't necessarily just meant for you. There are a lot of people in this thread that need to try to walk in another man/woman's shoes for a mile.

lots of partys disbanded because dps are unable to kill DPS checks (the wall in Amdapor was an example, the nails on ifrit , the gaol on titan , plumes on garuda...and bubbles on levi , every other boss has dps checks Coil 1-9 is full of dps checks)

tanks and healers are more noticiable , if a tanks lose agro ...or tanks dies because healer wasnt healing....u see it....

DPS u can see that the boss is dying slow , but u cant see if its dps 1 or dp2 fault other than watching how they play .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skivvy

And regarding why Parsers would not be good - people in this game can be absolutely vicious when they simply think you're not holding your weight. Imagine if they have actual data to back this up?

---

Just to make sure I'm reading this correctly:

Are you warning us against actual data like it's some kind of boogeyman, or are you warning us against angry people with justifiable claims?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tiggy

Would you like a cookie? Clearly it isn't that easy for everyone else to multitask as well as you. You don't need to dash everyone's opinions to the ground because you're able to do something they can't.

Everyone has different skills and abilities. Try to put yourself in their shoes for a change and try to understand why these features would be useful to them even if they aren't useful to you. You aren't the only one playing the game. A lot of people need to remember that more often.

This isn't necessarily just meant for you. There are a lot of people in this thread that need to try to walk in another man/woman's shoes for a mile.

---

I'm not dashing anyone's opinions. I've barely stated anything about my personal opinion on parsers aside from that final statement (which isn't strongly worded at all). All I've been doing is elaborating that there are other ways to see how someone was performing.

I understand not everyone can multitask. But out of a group of 8 (especially in a progression oriented static) not a single person can be bothered to take note of these things? Healers are already looking at the party list constantly, does it really hurt your performance to glance at the buffs every once in a while as you click on people's names? The whole point is progression and improvement. Isn't everyone supposed to be learning, helping and observing each other anyway? If eight players are that concerned with meeting DPS checks and none can be bothered to look at the party list except to see who died, I think there are other things holding the group back.