DPS meters and why they're necessary

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

I understand tanks & healers anger since their flaws can be easily spotted compared to DPS ones but I honestly think a DPS meter won't work that well since the equality you're demanding will end up adding more toxicity towards the end game content.

We should be looking for another solution & I do like the idea of having your own personal parser where people could be more conscious about their damage & even SE could show you a comparative of what your AVG should be for your job/class.

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That argument is used often and I'm not saying it never happens but it is by far not as common as people are trying to portrait it. Meters have been used in the most popular MMOs with great success and having much more pros massively outweighs the con.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

That argument is used often and I'm not saying it never happens but it is by far not as common as people are trying to portrait it. Meters have been used in the most popular MMOs with great success and having much more pros massively outweighs the con.

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Right now we're at a point where parsers have a really bad rep among casuals, even if many games use it, casuals usually are not familiar with them, we are talking about FFXIV specifically, context really takes a big role when making this kind of decisions (Community wise), I would not have said anything about them if they had been introduced from the beginning but right now I do not think it would be a smart move by SE, adding in-game parser where you're ranked.

I don't have any idea how easy this would be to do: a party option, similiar to votekick. For example, someone iniates a question "do we allow dps meter/parser in this party" if even one says no, then it won't be able for use thus it wouldn't get abused in PF parties, but when you are with your friends, you all agree and it's yours to use for that dungeon run/trial etc.

To me that would be a good solution, but I don't know wether it can be even implemented without making changes to the current systems.

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

Right now we're at a point where parsers have a really bad rep among casuals, even if many games use it, casuals usually are not familiar with them, we are talking about FFXIV specifically, context really takes a big role when making this kind of decisions (Community wise), I would not have said anything about them if they had been introduced from the beginning but right now I do not think it would be a smart move by SE, adding in-game parser where you're ranked.

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Thats mostly because said "casuals" don't understand the meaning of a parser.
They view it as bad thing because it's used against them by some people but what they don't understand is that it's mostly rightly so because they really underperform sometimes, if they would see their own numbers they would be able to fix it without having others telling you to.

The most fun aspect of a DPS is dishing out as much damage as your job possibly can (while still fulfilling your support roles in case of a bard) and be an asset to your group.
A parser is only helping with that and people can actually see their real numbers, some people are so adamant that parsers are a bad thing and I can see where they are coming from if it was used to tell them how bad they are.
Instead they could use a parser themselves, improve on it and pull their weight! It's already enough if they do moderate damage, no one is expecting randoms to be exceptional but if you do 1/3 of the damage you're suppose to do it hurts not only you but the whole group.

I used to hate parsers too back in the day, I also was told off because of my low numbers and started to be ignorant about it.
Just out of curiousity I started using one back then in WoW and never went back, I started to see a difference, became good and after a while I turned into a top DPS I was never told off for underperforming since then.

In FFXIV I started by asking others to tell me my numbers and try to improve on it, every time I reached a higher number in an encounter they told me so and I slowly figured whats right and whats wrong.
So you don't even need a parser yourself, if someone tell you you're underperforming he might aswell help you to improve, I know I do when I see someone that could need a hand.

as a console player 90% of the time, yes, so much yes.

so much of mmorpg's in the end is about data, gathering it, analysing it, sharing it.

instead of a dozen 3rd party parsers that all give different numbers, it would so much better to have an official one that can actually be trusted.

doesn't have to be there all the time, could be for 8-man stuff only, or partyleaders could have the option for turning it off&on

i played smn for a while on playstation but i was in a couple of groups where we failed dps checks on garuda/ifrit ex, and i stopped playing, because i don't know if it was my fault or not, i don't wanna ruin it for 7 other people that may have been doing fine, so i just wont touch dps classes anymore

I welcome and support DPS meter.
But I seriously doubt it will be happened, when they decided not to show iLV for those reasons... ^^;

Im pro pharser!

I find it helps more then it hurts and due to the increasing difficulty of fights due to the bad players/rejects. Some fights that are easy become very hard since the underperforming players don't understand where they should be standing at in terms of dps/rotations and pharsers help all that.

Sure you will get those jerks with or without pharser, its nature.

Also for those people in this thread who say "only show our own numbers at end" that will be almost as useless as not having one. If you don't compare your numbers with other classes/comrades then how will you know where the limit is of your classes capabilities? Are they gonna have some number that shows them the average dps in that run for their class? I am aware it can cause confidence issues if it happens but it can also create the burning desire to out perform your rival, to push yourself further, to overcome them!

Personally, I'm against them for the following reason:

While they can be used for good (usually finding ways to improve one's game), I could see this going toxic. If I wanted to play a game where everything was about the numbers churned out, I'd go play WoW (which ironically is the very reason why I've never played it). However, it's also a symptom of a bigger problem. How can one improve if instead of going "have you tried X and Y?" it becomes "You're only doing 290 dps. Come back when you can do 350". As a BLM, I hate fights like Titan, since I don't get to attack as much as other classes (movement based and whatnot), so I'm sure on parsers I'm always coming in last.

That said, I like the idea of a personal DPS meter (where the number is for only you), or a simulated measure system (imagine they set up a Titan fight where there is an auto tank, and it plays out the fight with just you dpsing Titan and getting your numbers that way - simulating an "ideal" environment). That way, you aren't getting numbers in a actual fight, so it can help avoid the "member" measuring contests (since there's already plenty of those). I could just see the PF comments now (which range from amusing to toxic as is). However, I'd still be worried that this would turn into another player based barrier to endgame content that ultimately could hurt the game community versus making better players (try giving advice in lowbie roulettes nowadays).

While I understand the idea is to say "I have to do better!" it doesn't make the game fun if everyone's turning on you over not hitting hard enough (at least fitting their perceived notion of what imaginary deciding line you should be hitting).

They will be used for worse more than they are for better, END OF DISCUSSION!

I want parsers added.

It's just sad when I out-dps a geared bard in Haukke HM when I'm on sch.

Granted, I didn't need the parser to tell me such, the guy was engaging once the mobs are half dead, however I am of the view that if people have it visible on screen, they will strive to perform better. Some people might not even realise they're performing poorly and it might encourage them to improve.

Of course you'll get asshats abusing it, just the same as they do everything else, but I think the pros outweigh the cons here by far.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

They will be used for worse more than they are for better, END OF DISCUSSION!

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False. Please don't spread lies.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

False. Please don't spread lies.

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It's a 50/50 in this. There are good and bad, so thus SE will not implement it. I want a parser may b a personal one, where I can track my progress. If someone ask me for my numbers I'll take a picture and text it to them lol

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

They will be used for worse more than they are for better, END OF DISCUSSION!

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No, not end of discussion. The only thing you proved was a claim without evidences therefore adding nothing to discussion except more "parsers r the devilz".

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

Right now we're at a point where parsers have a really bad rep among casuals, even if many games use it, casuals usually are not familiar with them, we are talking about FFXIV specifically, context really takes a big role when making this kind of decisions (Community wise), I would not have said anything about them if they had been introduced from the beginning but right now I do not think it would be a smart move by SE, adding in-game parser where you're ranked.

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That's the thing. That argument makes no sense, it uses the same base as technophobia which is flat out stupid.

I am a BLM from ps4 and i'm really striving for a personal DPS meater. It piss me off that i'm unable to try out the difference in rotations, the impact of equipment swapping, different timing for cooldowns in fight and similar. And i can't do it cuz i'd need to ask my friend with parser up after every wipe/run how i performed and it's nothing i dare to do

I really hate not being able to pars myself and be forced to play it random. Is better to use quelling strike on that phase or on the other one? I try Thunder 1 with one more fire cast or thunder 2 with one fire less? I can't answer miself. And this is really pissing me off being unable to parse myself only cuz i'm on console

Make personal parsers that don't give information on other members and that you can't show to others. No problems with others and ppl can try to better themselfs even on consoles =_=

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

I am a BLM from ps4 and i'm really striving for a personal DPS meater. It piss me off that i'm unable to try out the difference in rotations, the impact of equipment swapping, different timing for cooldowns in fight and similar. And i can't do it cuz i'd need to ask my friend with parser up after every wipe/run how i performed and it's nothing i dare to do

I really hate not being able to pars myself and be forced to play it random. Is better to use quelling strike on that phase or on the other one? I try Thunder 1 with one more fire cast or thunder 2 with one fire less? I can't answer miself. And this is really pissing me off being unable to parse myself only cuz i'm on console

Make personal parsers that don't give information on other members and that you can't show to others. No problems with others and ppl can try to better themselfs even on consoles =_=

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I thought a personal parser would work but the thing is that everyone else will know that you can see your numbers and no doubt there would be groups that ask you to share that information. I suppose you could bluff and say something like 300dps when you really did 200, but why should people have to lie or hide things from others to avoid being harassed?

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

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Why i can't enjoy this game fully? Why i can't get the fun of experiencing different rotation? Why i must only rely on information others experience? Why can't i min max? Just cuz i'm on PS4, in the face od "same experience". For not casual this is a huge letdown on the potential fun of testing a item with 25 SS opposed to a 20 crit one, or slight differences due to cooldown timing.

Plus asking someone how much you parse when you can't check is honestly idiotic, way less abusable/harrassing of other things like vote-kick abuse. Idiots are idiots with or without this and report is there for this. The pros in personal DPS is why higher the the cons of ppl that alredy harass with parser. I want a much more heavy cons to personal parser not displeyable

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Originally Posted by Exstal

False. Please don't spread lies.

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So you're telling me there wont suddenly be PF's with "LF DPS, MUST HAVE 350+DPS, PROOF IS REQUIRED"?

You're telling me their wont be Pugs in which those who are pro-parsers gang up on 1 or 2 other players because their DPS isn't as good as theirs? Or poking fun at the fact that "lol I'm at 324 DPS, this MNK's only doing 295, get good!"

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Originally Posted by Dwill

No, not end of discussion. The only thing you proved was a claim without evidences therefore adding nothing to discussion except more "parsers r the devilz".

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I never said "parsers r the devilz" (and to be frank anyone who uses that grammar needs to be euthanised), I simply said Parsers will be abused more than they will be used for good, I don't mind a personal parser only seen by each player but then it'll still incite others to say "what's your DPS?" If you try to join say a SCoB Pug group who're formed mainly of an FC.

So it's better that we go in a PF and have to deal with i100 DPS players doing 100-140 DPS in a relatively easy fight like Levi ex? Maybe wipe a few times and the party is disbanded?

I'm not really sure that harassment would be a greater problem with a built in parser. Maybe. Maybe not. It could also inspire a lot of players to work on their rotations and optimizing their DPS for various fights. I think it'd be more positive than negative.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

So you're telling me there wont suddenly be PF's with "LF DPS, MUST HAVE 350+DPS, PROOF IS REQUIRED"?

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If game will not allow you to share information but the "workaraound" can only be screenshots (on pc since on PS3 you can't do even that) asking fro screenshot of that parser is like parsing with 3th party apps, so passible of report. Plus DPS is not a static number like crit rate. Every time you enter a dungeon you get different result so what exactly are we talking about?

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

I don't mind a personal parser only seen by each player but then it'll still incite others to say "what's your DPS?" If you try to join say a SCoB Pug group who're formed mainly of an FC.

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Let me ask you this one question: Let's say a party like that did show up, if you're confident with your numbers, then why not show them? To refuse will tell me that you probably know you're playing badly and don't want to improve.

Parsers are here for improvement. I used Recount in WoW countless times to see how I stand on my main and have only improved, even after I skipped to level 90 and became overwhelmed.

My final note: The most common theme I'm seeing in these entire forums is that parsers will make the community worse. How will a TOOL make the community worse? To blame a TOOL is like blaming a GUN for killing people. Guns don't kill people, the person USING the gun (for malicious intent) kills people. I'm all for adding parsers for self improvement, and if you see somebody being a D-bag about it, Report it and move on.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

I never said "parsers r the devilz" (and to be frank anyone who uses that grammar needs to be euthanised), I simply said Parsers will be abused more than they will be used for good, I don't mind a personal parser only seen by each player but then it'll still incite others to say "what's your DPS?" If you try to join say a SCoB Pug group who're formed mainly of an FC.

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Honestly, just read the post above mine. It says anything that needs to be said about this topic.

I've said it countless and it needs to be said again, people are blowing the getting harassed issue way out proportion. No one has any valid proof that this will change the community for the worse except baseless anecdotal evidence.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Honestly, just read the post above mine. It says anything that needs to be said about this topic.

I've said it countless and it needs to be said again, people are blowing the getting harassed issue way out proportion. No one has any valid proof that this will change the community for the worse except baseless anecdotal evidence.

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Dwill you have to understand that many things involve this kind of decision which are not only related to harassment or any in-game consequence, SE reputation is still recovering, saying that many games use it & it's fine to them means nothing, you're talking about completely different games & companies, it's stupid to think just because others have it's going to work for SE.... Every step they take they will take it carefully since we are talking about keeping subscribers, parser bad reputation already built, even if they implement it in game most people still will dislike it.

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

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You're just rehashing the same thing. Parsers are already built for the game, we're just unable to even mention them. People's ignorance and fear of parsers is not a valid argument to prevent the use of such a tool.

Honestly, I really don't think there is going to be a mass exodus from people if Square-Enix enables parsers and I highly doubt it will affect their reputation. I mean, think about it for a second ? That makes no sense whatsoever. Parsers serves the same purposes no matter the game, multiple game runs on the same one (ACT) and it works wonder. Square-Enix can easily pull it off.

Seriously, that whole anti-parser thing reeks so much of technophobia and ignorance.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

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So you think they're gonna risk it because you think they won't have a massive exodus or they rep won't be affected? This involves many business/coummnity factors, you keep excluding those who are afraid of parsers like their arguments didn't matter, it would be really idiotic for SE to do that, they have to look for both sides, those who are ignorant & those who are informed.

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

So you think they're gonna risk it because you think they won't have a massive exodus or they rep won't be affected? This involves many business/coummnity factors, you keep excluding those who are afraid of parsers like their arguments didn't matter, it would be really idiotic for SE to do that, they have to look for both sides, those who are ignorant & those who are informed.

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The main argument of the ignorant is that people will be harassed, from which I've asked multiple people to provide sources or arguments proving their points. None of them can give me anything outside of sweeping generalization and anecdotal evidence.

Pro-parsers have valid arguments that parsers have been huge with great success in previous games and helped in the game's developement.
Anti-parsers are fear mongering the issue without any argument whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Illrayth

Considering there is an iLvl requirement to join end game battles, unless the DPS has awesome armor and accessories, but has a lv 30 weapon, then DPS is not the excuse. SE has ensured that if the party has the required iLVl to join the queue, then you CAN win the fight.

Try working with each other, watch one another, give tips, take tips gracefully and win the fight.

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Crystal Tower is ilvl55.

Show me a group in full ilvl55 of avarage skill level players than can clear it in the time limit. Call me Sally and Mark me Impressed.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

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Pro-parsers are confusing what is called development parsers with a end user parser, every game in development needs to have a way to test the damage you're a doing to X target so they can actually see if it's "killable" which also involves time & position, but that doesn't mean they have to give to the end game user a meter for it... as long as their numbers work they don't need to.

You're asking for valid proof of those who are against it so let me ask u then for more than 1 example of where a end user parser (or player) was needed or was crucial to improve PvE of a mmo game, not beta/alpha games we are talking about a end product here.

There're many experiences out there were people was kicked, bullied or banned from groups/fc because of parsers, that's where all bad rep comes from, it causes a toxic environment but if u want screenshots, chat logs & other stuff well that is just ridiculous so that's why I'm asking you for the same proof.

It's already been said a lot.

Scenario A) DPS isn't up to snuff, no one knows who is unable to pull their weight. Entire party disbands (I had that happen in Titan HM on my alt).
Scenario B) A sole DPS is not pulling the right numbers. Leader says, "back out". Kicks the weak DPS without letting him know.
Scenario C) A sole DPS is not pulling the right numbers. Leader says, "Yo, DPS B, can you pull your DPS up, you're doing pretty poorly." Either DPS B does so, or it happens to go to scenario B.

I had scenario C in my raid group but the raid leader let DPS B stay for 3 more weeks in hopes that he would bring his DPS up. He didn't, so we kicked him from the static. If you're going drag your raid team down, and then after being confronted on it, still don't change your ways, you're a detriment to the group.

People who are against DPS meters are forgetting that the most important thing about a DPS meter is as a DPS you want to maximize your damage to the fullest and this is exactly what a DPS meter will help you do. I actually had someone use a parser on my DPS to check it out and i actually found out that i was pretty low, so it motivated me to revamp my rotation and perform better damage output before. I went from an average of 280 DPS to 400 DPS, I didn't get mad that someone had told me my DPS was low, but rather actually thankful because now i can improve my damage output to it's fullest.

People need to stop saying this is wrong and negative and helps no one. Yet the people who are against it are the very people who complain on the forums about the x amount of bad players and DPS. DPS meters can help DPS perform better because lets face it, no DPS wants to suck at damage as much as a tank wants to suck at tanking or a healer at healing.

Its very easy to see when a tank is doing a poor job.
Its also easy to tell when a healer is doing a poor job.
It can be very difficult to tell which dps is doing poorly when dps checks arent being met. (without parsers)

I dont understand why the first two are okay, but being able to see when a dps isnt playing well is not.

The only possible reason to not want parsers is because you dont want people to know you are playing poorly, and you have no interest in improving. Its ridiculous.
If you arent bad, you have nothing to fear from parsers. If you are bad, parsers can be a huge help for improving -- unless you just dont care in which case the other players depending on you should be able to know that.

Parsers are for gathering data and using it to improve, not for harassing people.
There will always be jerkwads that harass other people, with or without parsers. The thing is, most people dont and wont act this way. The few that do will, as I said, be jerkwads regardless.

This fear of parsers is just silly, I have played mmos with parsers for years and never heard anyone say they need to be removed. What I do see in those games is kudos given to dps that perform extra well, which is something sadly lacking in this game. "Great heals" or "nice tanking", sure, but you can't say "wow nice dps on that!" because omg ssshh! saying you parse can get you suspended!

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Originally Posted by Buklohn

I went from an average of 280 DPS to 400 DPS

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I and one of my FC member had the same experience. This was in 2.1 before Echo. I used to play safe on Titan EX when I first beat it and was informed that I was only doing 203 DPS at ilevel86 monk. I was shocked and black listed that guy cause well.... I didn't like it. Typical response when someone told you you suck. But instead of going on the forum complaining about it, I looked for ways to improve myself, including reading the monk temple thread thoroughly, test over and over again in Titan EX to see what kinds of limit I have, ask other monks for advice until someone told me I was doing 280 DPS at the same ilevel. See how a meter help?

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

You're asking for valid proof of those who are against it so let me ask u then for more than 1 example of where a end user parser (or player) was needed or was crucial to improve PvE of a mmo game, not beta/alpha games we are talking about a end product here.

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Every game where you need to test rotation, in wich you need to test different items with different stats, in wich player want to give their best and be able to check how they are doing. Pretty much every MMO out there

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Originally Posted by NintenPyjak64

Let me ask you this one question: Let's say a party like that did show up, if you're confident with your numbers, then why not show them? To refuse will tell me that you probably know you're playing badly and don't want to improve.

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I am confident with my DPS, I'm constantly topping my Raid groups because a couple of them have parsers and gives everyone in the party a read out at the end of how each person did sometimes, if their was one that DID stick out then at most we'd just talk about it and try to improve their performance.

As I said before, I'd want a training dummy at my FC's house to get your own DPS numbers from it and share them with my FC to see who's doing well to go on static Raids and whether or not some people can improve it.

Also anyone that keeps saying "if you don't want to show your numbers then you're obviously scared of showing how bad you are", is just an elitist viewpoint IMO.

Im okay with parsers as long as they arent used to harass and/or negatively affect someone else. Will they be used like this? No. Which in that case im okay with reporting people.

As someone doing T8 i rather like my friends parsers, they help me do better :]

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Originally Posted by LetBloodline

Every game where you need to test rotation, in wich you need to test different items with different stats, in wich player want to give their best and be able to check how they are doing. Pretty much every MMO out there

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That was just an answer that falls in generalization missing the point of my request/question... read it again please.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

Also anyone that keeps saying "if you don't want to show your numbers then you're obviously scared of showing how bad you are", is just an elitist viewpoint IMO.

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I have to agree, it seems that they're trying to avoid the real issue or just don't want to be realistic about what involves this kind of requests. I wish it were that simple.

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

I am confident with my DPS, I'm constantly topping my Raid groups because a couple of them have parsers and gives everyone in the party a read out at the end of how each person did sometimes, if their was one that DID stick out then at most we'd just talk about it and try to improve their performance.

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Do you see the irony of that statement or do you need it pointed out ?

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

As I said before, I'd want a training dummy at my FC's house to get your own DPS numbers from it and share them with my FC to see who's doing well to go on static Raids and whether or not some people can improve it.

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No one one is gonna lie about their numbers in with their raid spot in play:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Skyl1n3

Also anyone that keeps saying "if you don't want to show your numbers then you're obviously scared of showing how bad you are", is just an elitist viewpoint IMO.

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Because you don't like this being an elitist viewpoint doesn't make it any less true.

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

That was just an answer that falls in generalization missing the point of my request/question... read it again please.

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You want more than a game where parser played a crucial role in PvE ? WoW and Rift.

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Originally Posted by ParadiseCircus

I have to agree, it seems that they're trying to avoid the real issue or just don't want to be realistic about what involves this kind of requests. I wish it were that simple.

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You're using ignorance of the mass, fear mongering and a logical fallacy as your base arguments, can't provide any sort of concrete proof on how this would actually impact negatively the game yet we are the one missing the real issue ? You can't be serious.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

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So you're telling me that Blizzard & Trion implemented an in-game parser like the one you demanding for? Where your dps is ranked among your party members or are you talking about 3rd party programs/mods?

Answer what I requested, you keep dodging it, tell me a scenario where a parser was crucial for a game, this means that it actually was added in a game.

Do you understand that your so called solid arguments are isolated experiences? You keep saying they will be for better but you haven't shown any proof of it, all I've read are personal experiences of WHY you think having a parser is necessary...

By the way never reference Wikipedia again please, it's terrible practice that must stop, in the end only discredits your arguments.

Came for the title stayed for the dead horse. But anyway, if you have a few combos or you have buffs you have to refresh (I can only talk from a summoner and dragoon point of view for dps) then a dps meter isn't what we need, but rather an overall damage meter, and regardless it's not that hard to figure out your overall dps, solution? Play with FC buddies you know aren't bads if you're that disheartened by not having a dps meter.