SMN a use for ifrit...

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Both Ifrit's Flaming Crush and Garuda's Aerial Slash have 30 cooldown, the thign is Ifrit's has 15 more potency to it, that's it which totally does not make up for the lack of Contagion during AoE pulls.

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Yet if you go look for yourself on any training dummy, you'll find Aerial Slash just does more. Magic potency has more weight than physical potency (rather, if you look at any mage and melee weapon of similar ilvl you will see magic is significantly higher).

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

Yet if you go look for yourself on any training dummy, you'll find Aerial Slash just does more. Magic potency has more weight than physical potency (rather, if you look at any mage and melee weapon of similar ilvl you will see magic is significantly higher).

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I never tested the AoE on dummies but this got me interested to try out.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

As in Garuda buffing Ifrit's damage after doing x ability ? They would have to drastically reduce the casting time and MP cost else it would be worthless because no one will be hardcasting summons every few minutes for 20-25% of their MP pool each time.

If it's not that, please clarify.

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No you had it right. Changing a mana cost/cast time and adding a proc/effect to an existing skill would be something they'd probably consider before doing an entire overhaul on the pet system just to have people find one pet thats better than the others and stick with it, like Garuda right now.

I'm sure theres other solutions but that one seems like the easiest to impliment to me.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

DoTs continue to tick after the boss cannot be targeted. The same applies to Ifrit/Titan/Garuda/Leviathan Jumps and Twintania Divebombs.

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I'm sorry but that cannot be accurate. There's been quite a number of times when that boss enters last phase with less than 1% of its HP and full DoTs up, and doesn't die.

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

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I agree with you that mana cost and casting time reduction are easier than a lot of other thing to implement. Though I can also easily see SE not going that route due to people stopping to manage their pets since it would cost nothing to resummon.

Continuing to next post

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Originally Posted by Jamez82

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One thing (in the same line of thought that could work), would be to drastically reduce Enkindle's CD to about 1* minute and would give you a buff that lasts for 1.5 minutes* that would empower another DPS Egi's damage for a short time and let you summon the Egi for free and instant.

Exemple:

-Garuda uses Aerial Blast;
-Summoner gets a buff called Thermal Current* that buffs Ifrit's damage by 20% for 30 seconds and lets him get summoned instantly and free of cost*.

-Ifrit uses Inferno;
-Summoner gets a buff called Rising Air Draft* that buffs Garuda's damage by 20% for 30 secondes and lets her get summoned instantly and free of cost*.

That gives the summoner ample time to do their current gameplay while giving the feeling of actually being a summoner, letting Egis synergizes together while preventing one of them being FOTM, all this while following the lore.

*: all numbers and names are purely exemple for the sake of the idea.

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Originally Posted by Rydia13

I'm sorry but that cannot be accurate. There's been quite a number of times when that boss enters last phase with less than 1% of its HP and full DoTs up, and doesn't die.

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There's a difference between "just disappearing/being untargetable" and "being invincible for Astral Flow Attack". It's hard to tell which is which without Trial/error.

the only thing, Outside of mass AoE situations to actually use Ifrit is simply for Pet buffs - Enkindle (total potency of after DoT 450). Giving Ifrit the highest DPS of the three in that given time before the dot/ Buffs wear off. Then Its simply time to SC-Garuda back intime to chuck out contagion. Yeah its abit MP heavy but its is the best way- Damage wise to start a fight. or the best way that Ive found over all.

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Originally Posted by SuperSalty

the only thing, Outside of mass AoE situations to actually use Ifrit is simply for Pet buffs - Enkindle (total potency of after DoT 450). Giving Ifrit the highest DPS of the three in that given time before the dot/ Buffs wear off. Then Its simply time to SC-Garuda back intime to chuck out contagion. Yeah its abit MP heavy but its is the best way- Damage wise to start a fight. or the best way that Ive found over all.

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Doing all that is actually a significant damage lose.

Fully buffed Inferno is 450 and fully buffed Aerial Blast is 375.

75 potency difference for quite a few GCD lost and SC becomes unavailable for Shadowflare.

Not worth it.

Really Because Ive noticed about a 40-100 DPS increase upon using that at the start of a fight during that duration. And the only GDC that is lost is Swiftcast. you still get a fully RS buffed contagion, Fester/Drain/fester and the usual Ruin filler spam. Even if it was a "Loss" I doubt it would be very significant at all, As Miasma 2 Is more then Adequate to cover down for SF in a buffed state before you slowcast. My FC along with myself did some numbers among several of us Main SMN's compared several different starting rotations, to include the above standard so far the method I provided above won out, Either by alot or by a small margin. Im going to say it all comes down to how the player behaves in that first 30 seconds. However.. Its only a starter, Certainly not recomended for use mid-fight as then you will actually lose DPS and Mp based on a number of reasons.

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Originally Posted by SuperSalty

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This interests me on something actually. If they're going to take a look at Garuda later on and see how they can make it so that she is not the go-to pet at all times, Pet Switching might be an effective way to spice up the class. As for the Enkindle start you're talking about, I'm curious to try something like what you said.


1. Summon Ifrit.
2. Buff him with Rouse and Spur, send him in with Enkindle and hit as many enemies as you can with it.
3. Swiftcast in Garuda on Obey, have your three main DoTs up by this point.
4. Contagion and Bane them with an additional HQ Potent Poisoning Potion, while Inferno's DoT is still up. (Can Contagion extend Ifrit's DoT from Inferno? Or does it count as your pet's and not yours so it won't?)
5. Watch the devastation on the targets.

If we will be getting Leviathan and Ramuh soon with the level increase, which is pretty much guaranteed really eventually, there could be an action that increases our damage for switching between our pets during combat. Once they separate the cooldown times for each pet's actions, switching your pets around during combat could make things pretty interesting.

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Originally Posted by SuperSalty

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I mean, you use what works for you but the most optimal rotation number wise:

Before pull: RS + Int Pot
At pull: Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester -> Miasma II (Queue Contagion as you Miasma)-> Swiftcast -> Shadowflare -> Rouse -> Ruin II -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Aetherflow

Since Enkindle is so far down and Swiftcast as been used, it is a DPS lost to have Ifrit for Inferno.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

I mean, you use what works for you but the most optimal rotation number wise:

Before pull: RS + Int Pot
At pull: Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester -> Miasma II (Queue Contagion as you Miasma)-> Swiftcast -> Shadowflare -> Rouse -> Ruin II -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Aetherflow

Since Enkindle is so far down and Swiftcast as been used, it is a DPS lost to have Ifrit for Inferno.

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isnt it better to place 3 main dots before using rs+int ? since you can use fester twice with both RS+int up, then reapply the dots again.

reapplying DoTs is gonna be a DPS loss since you can already get 2 RS+Int Pot Fester in thre and 1 unbuffed Fester all in the same row of DoTs.

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Originally Posted by Huntington

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No Contagion does not extend out the DoT period of Ifrits Inferno unfortunately.
Also Never RS+Int (RS/Int doesnt affect your Pets DPS because of Rouse/Spur) before a pull, Thats a waist of RS time.

<-within the RS countdown->
What I do at the pull is: Rouse+Spur+Enkindle. RS+Pot, Bio 2 -> Miasma. (fester- Because an Enhanced 200 is better then 150 and to get it back on GC before RS runs out) Bio -> Energydrain -> Miasma 2 -> SC(Garuda) Obey -> Contagion. Fester, Shadow Flare. And any Ruins and additional drains (If you have another AF stack) you can get in before your RS drops. <-End RS-> Then back to the usual.

Yeah its alot to cram in there but when done correctly, It adds upto amazing. Sometimes though depending on how on the money you are you may or may not actually get the enhanced SF off intime. Which if thats the case than you'll barely break over even above the standard rotation But you should still be doing alittle more then the average. Timing and skill is paramount in getting this off with out a hitch. It even took me some practice to fire off properly with out a hitch. Again never use this in the middle of a fight. atleast until some one can craft a better way of doing this mid battle.

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Originally Posted by SuperSalty

<-within the RS countdown->
What I do at the pull is: Rouse+Spur+Enkindle. RS+Pot, Bio 2 -> Miasma. (fester- Because an Enhanced 200 is better then 150 and to get it back on GC before RS runs out) Bio -> Energydrain -> Miasma 2 -> SC(Garuda) Obey -> Contagion. Fester, Shadow Flare. And any Ruins and additional drains (If you have another AF stack) you can get in before your RS drops. <-End RS-> Then back to the usual.

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Not optimal and no offense but actually pretty subpar. This the best rotation number wise, feel free to math out both yours and mine if you do not believe it.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

Before pull: RS + Int Pot
At pull: Bio 2 -> Miasma -> Bio -> Fester -> Miasma II (Queue Contagion as you Miasma)-> Swiftcast -> Shadowflare -> Rouse -> Ruin II -> Spur -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Enkindle -> Ruin -> Ruin -> Ruin II -> Fester -> Ruin II -> Aetherflow

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Garuda's attacks are buffed by Foe Requiem as well. It really isn't up for discussion, Garuda is just straight up better in every situation.

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Originally Posted by sackm

Garuda's attacks are buffed by Foe Requiem as well. It really isn't up for discussion, Garuda is just straight up better in every situation.

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Exactly, it's as simple as that.

In static fight like T8, I find dps is equal when using Ifrit-Egi or Garuda-Egi, (34X)
but I can leave Ifrit-Egi on Sic while I have to do near perfect rotation on using Garuda-Egi
(need to hold RS quite sometime until 2 x Festers and Contagion up).

But Ifrit-Egi clearly wins if WAR or MNK (or both) present on the fight due to slash and blunt damage buff. (+10 dps per each job presented)

It's my experiment but may be due to I am suck using Garuda-Egi :)

And so are Ifrits. I think you guys are missing the point, the fact that ifrit is out only 10 seconds with in a 20 second/tic window and not for the remainder of the fight. but with in a 10-20 second window ifrit pulls ahead. not by much, but he does. (Reconfirmed after more testing).
Ifrit does 6-7 Auto attacks at 120 potency. at a total of 720(rounded to 6) with in the 20second RS duration.
Garuda does 7 Auto attacks at 100 potency at a total of 700.
I 360 Vs G 350 when cut in half or 710 when used with in the same duration.
Ifrit does 500 potency with 5 strikes after enkindle in the same 20tic window at 600. 1.1k total
Garuda does 250(? according to the tool tip, I thought it was 300?) and 6 strikes at 600. 1050 total.

and to top it off you still get Garuda's contagion to go with your Enhanced dots along with an Enhanced SF if you swap at 10 seconds(tics).

@Dwill
As far as using Rouse and Spur Mid rotation. "Why?" that reduces the number of times you can use them in a fight. Same with Enkindle. over ten minutes I can use my Enkindle twice to your once.
You also recommended using RS pre-pull which is a waist of RS time. Im not saying I know best. But common sense sort of states the obvious.

I'm not sure this has been mentioned, but ifrit is great in T8. He doesn't have to move and can sit there killing the avatar or dread and his shield is great for all the aoe damage that goes out during the fight. His normal aoe and enkindle work well on the dreadnaught.

Since I haven o personnal experience with T8, I can't say much about it but it ain't the first time I hear about this. Nevertheless, it's sad that one specific encounter design in the game (whacking at an almost immobile object) is the only use for him.

I generally use garuda for the most part, but i try to save raging strikes and enkindle for a high priority target (whatever needs to die the fastest), also i find that generally speaking garuda's enkindle tends to have a wider range compared to ifrit's enkindle. Thus making garuda's enkindle far more valuable as you can hit more enemies and multiplying the damage. On the other hand with with a mnk and war in the party ifrit will win off of the buffs, on top of the fact that since ifrit has a basic attack it means that he has a more likely chance to crit and give the spell speed buff to increase your ruin spam (yes i know its not much but still). As far as rotation goes im still tweaking it a bit, but it seems promising will post later when i have confirmed it

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Originally Posted by Divine_Whisper

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The reason Garuda's Enkindle seems to hit more target is that her's an AoE centered around the target and Ifrit's a cone. So if Ifrit isn't properly place, he more than likely will hit less target than Garuda in an AoE situation.

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Originally Posted by SuperSalty

Ifrit does 6-7 Auto attacks at 120 potency. at a total of 720(rounded to 6) with in the 20second RS duration.

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Auto-attacks or Burning Strike? Ifrit does both...
More broadly, no one else seems to be mentioning that Ifrit has an auto-attack that does damage in addition to Burning Strike either.

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Originally Posted by Danbo05

Actually in T2, it'd be more preferrable to use Titan Egi because its the more durable of the 2, and won't drop like a fly 10 seconds into the fight.

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With the Recent Echo buff on Pet's this isnt an issue anymore, my SMN was only i73 last time i tried T2, and it didnt have any issues surviving with its HP, which i think ifrit had like 4700ish?

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Auto-attacks or Burning Strike? Ifrit does both...
More broadly, no one else seems to be mentioning that Ifrit has an auto-attack that does damage in addition to Burning Strike either.

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Everyobdy knows, it's still math'ed out to be inferior.

Ifrit just can't pull the weight that Garuda can. In order for Ifrit to be viable it has to be able to match the damage that Garuda and Contagion'd DoTs provides. Changes to his current abilities would be necessary as well.

I'd like to weigh in as someone who just recently hit 50 on SMN, and therefore I'm not quite into the highest end content with it yet. Ifrit seems the best choice for me when going up against normal fights (as in, not bosses.) due to a few things. First of all, every thirty seconds I believe, Flaming Crush does AOE damage around Ifrit. His stun really stands out, because that results in less damage that the tank takes, meaning a little better survivability when the tank makes big pulls. And, if enemies are AOE heavy, he counterattacks it a bit.

Basically what I'm trying to say is that Ifrit feels like what you should use before bosses, Garuda feels better during a boss, and Titan is a good swiftcast summon if the tank goes down because they didn't dodge or something. There are also certain situations, like on Demon Wall, where you want your Egi to close back in on a boss instead of hanging back in the void pitch. (Not that Demon Wall is hard anymore...)

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Originally Posted by Ardan

Ifrit just can't pull the weight that Garuda can. In order for Ifrit to be viable it has to be able to match the damage that Garuda and Contagion'd DoTs provides. Changes to his current abilities would be necessary as well.

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It actually does more dmg than Garuda+Contagion [even more with drg and/or mnk in pt], but it also takes a lot more damage, meaning you need to heal it (more often). Also the SMN itself needs to reapply dots more often, so higher mp consumption.

Bolded part is the biggest issue imo.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

It actually does more dmg than Garuda+Contagion [even more with drg and/or mnk in pt], but it also takes a lot more damage, meaning you need to heal it (more often). Also the SMN itself needs to reapply dots more often, so higher mp consumption.

Bolded part is the biggest issue imo.

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Oh really? It does more damage then Garuda+Contagion?

I think you heard some bad information, Ifrit does like 10% more damage just testing them naked.

Thats not even considering Contagion. Not to mention Raging Strikes + Contagion.

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Originally Posted by Sen_Terrechant

Oh really? It does more damage then Garuda+Contagion?

I think you heard some bad information, Ifrit does like 10% more damage just testing them naked.

Thats not even considering Contagion. Not to mention Raging Strikes + Contagion.

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Test it yourself instead of going by what you heard or read.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Test it yourself instead of going by what you heard or read.

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I have. As have many other people.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

Test it yourself instead of going by what you heard or read.

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Ifrit is bad enough SE has recognised it and is implementing changes. That should be a pretty good sign (along with all the testing players have done) that your white-knighting of him is a bit off.

woah, has nothing to do with "white-knighting". I use garuda as much as everyone else. just that my recent tests show he is not as bad as ppl say. simple comparing both (without the smn) on dummies for 4mins, just applying rouse/spur whenever possible, resulted in ifrit doing almost 18% more dmg than garuda. Maybe my tests are wrong, but then i have question those 400+ dps mnks aswell.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

woah, has nothing to do with "white-knighting". I use garuda as much as everyone else. just that my recent tests show he is not as bad as ppl say. simple comparing both (without the smn) on dummies for 4mins, just applying rouse/spur whenever possible, resulted in ifrit doing almost 18% more dmg than garuda. Maybe my tests are wrong, but then i have question those 400+ dps mnks aswell.

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The part in bold is your issue, contagion aside training dummies don't move and any fight where mobility is involved Ifrit will lose damage due to being melee alone compared to Garuda who wont have to readjust because her attacks are ranged.

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Originally Posted by Starkbeaumont

woah, has nothing to do with "white-knighting". I use garuda as much as everyone else. just that my recent tests show he is not as bad as ppl say. simple comparing both (without the smn) on dummies for 4mins, just applying rouse/spur whenever possible, resulted in ifrit doing almost 18% more dmg than garuda. Maybe my tests are wrong, but then i have question those 400+ dps mnks aswell.

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There is entirely one fight in the entire game that can be even remotely close to a dummy and that's T8. The rest of the fights, Ifrit just can't keep up.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There is entirely one fight in the entire game that can be even remotely close to a dummy and that's T8. The rest of the fights, Ifrit just can't keep up.

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T6.

Don't forget that you can RS+pot+dots+contagion then switch to Ifrit.

Actually I also tried Ifrit-Egi in T7, he is doing good but sometime dying for some reason (he has no problem eating Circle Blade).
I will try to use it on T6 and T7 in next reset.

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Originally Posted by Dwill

There is entirely one fight in the entire game that can be even remotely close to a dummy and that's T8. The rest of the fights, Ifrit just can't keep up.

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There are a lot more fights in this game that are very static that requires no movement, especially for a pet since they can essentially just eat certain AoEs.