Why do the Egis appearance look awful and unimpressive

Dat lore is why.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Dat lore is why.

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Who's fault is that though?

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Originally Posted by Gospel

And why not? You should be more respectful of the OP's plea. Or was this thread you made in the past for nothing?
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post2124491

If the OP wants to voice that the primals should be changed, then they can voice it. Who cares if they make the same themed thread in different sub sections of the forum. They're still following the guidelines and just want to be heard. I personally think the egis are fine as they are but I wouldn't be opposed to s/e changing their looks over time either.

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There's a difference between suggesting something and making 200 threads on the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Who's fault is that though?

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Same reason why male Miqote markings not being able to be removed was justified with lore instead of making them customizable, easier to write something quick for limitations than actually work towards fixing an issue, regardless if a couple don't see it as one.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

There's a difference between suggesting something and making 200 threads on the same thing.

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Exactly, it's spam in the guise of a suggestion.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

I know Summoner's summon the Primals in the form of high spirits but why do they look like something that I would cook up and eat.
Ifrit Egi - looks like a red chicken with horns
Titan Egi - looks like chicken nuggets
Garuda Egi - looks like a green duck.
At the very least the Egis should resemble the Primals.

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Are the multiple threads you've spammed in the DPS section about this not enough?

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Who's fault is that though?

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Well, the devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had full blown primals, people would bitch that they weren't sticking to lore and that they are totally messing up the whole notion that a tonne of crystals and lives are needed to summon them. And since they decided to go the lore-friendly route, now people bitch that they aren't impressive enough (despite the fact that you're only summoning the ESSENCE of the primal, not the primal itself). There really is no way for them to win.

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Originally Posted by AmyNeudaiz

There's a difference between suggesting something and making 200 threads on the same thing.

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I'd heavily suggest you take a look at your post history if that is going to be your response. What she is doing is no different then what you and many others have done in the past on these forums. Please be more courteous to your fellow forum posters in the future. Their opinions, suggestions and advise is just as valued as yours. If you don't have anything worthwhile to contribute, or if you're just fed up with their "spam" as you call it, then just /ignore them. Otherwise it's just harassment.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Who's fault is that though?

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The fans, for wanting Summoner in the first place.

Summons in XIV are going to be impressive, we knew of this long before Summoner was announced. Free Companies would battle the Primal, then be able to summon it in full force, similar to the cinematic summonings of old.

But people wanted Summoner the Job, so the developers had to make a distinction between Summoner the Job, and Summoner the FC event. As a Job, it makes sense for the summons to be less powerful and less flashy, otherwise it's overpowered from a gameplay point and a aesthetics point. Summoner already is pretty overpowered in both regards anyway, and that'll only get worse with new Egis. The only other Job that comes close is Scholar, and even the Selene and Eos are both reskins of each other, rather than having unique models, not to mention they're both not really that flashy. Summoner gets a mini version of all the Primals finishing move.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Well, the devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had full blown primals, people would bitch that they weren't sticking to lore and that they are totally messing up the whole notion that a tonne of crystals and lives are needed to summon them. And since they decided to go the lore-friendly route, now people bitch that they aren't impressive enough (despite the fact that you're only summoning the ESSENCE of the primal, not the primal itself). There really is no way for them to win.

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Actually it has zero basis in lore whatsoever.

The premise of primals isn't that you need a ton of crystals and/or lives to summon them, it's that they're stronger the more of those things they have. We know this because in the main story quest both Ifrit and Titan are summoned by the cries of only 3 of their respective beast tribe members, none of which had any crystals in their possession that we know of. The only lore that exists to justify the egis is the lore they added specifically for summoner quests, in other words AFTER they decided to go the egi route.

Just wanting to pipe in and quietly mention lore isn't a good justification for anything... The lore in this game is a total mess with contradictions aplenty...

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Actually it has zero basis in lore whatsoever.

The premise of primals isn't that you need a ton of crystals and/or lives to summon them, it's that they're stronger the more of those things they have. We know this because in the main story quest both Ifrit and Titan are summoned by the cries of only 3 of their respective beast tribe members, none of which had any crystals in their possession that we know of. The only lore that exists to justify the egis is the lore they added specifically for summoner quests, in other words AFTER they decided to go the egi route.

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What I got from it was they needed crystals/followers/sacrifices. And if what you say is the case, then it just justifies it. You're summoning the essence of a primal without crystals/etc to make it stronger...so...

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Originally Posted by Deifact

Just wanting to pipe in and quietly mention lore isn't a good justification for anything... The lore in this game is a total mess with contradictions aplenty...

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Not white knight but the lore in this game is plenty non-contradictory as you can get when they literally rewrote the plot for the story and took it in a new direction. There's not a lot of "contradictions" outside of the things that people get confused about.

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Originally Posted by Gospel

Otherwise it's just harassment.

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If I'm harassing the OP then what do you call your replies to me? Accusations against my person, attempts to discredit, bringing up previous posts...
C'mon now.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

What I got from it was they needed crystals/followers/sacrifices. And if what you say is the case, then it just justifies it. You're summoning the essence of a primal without crystals/etc to make it stronger...so...

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Did you not read the "the main storyline completely destroys your argument by summoning full-sized, full bodied primals from no crystals and the calls of only 3 beastmen?" part of that post?

You didn't, did you?

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Did you not read the "the main storyline completely destroys your argument by summoning full-sized, full bodied primals from no crystals and the calls of only 3 beastmen?" part of that post?

You didn't, did you?

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I did and it's not my argument. I was just presenting both sides of the coin. I'm not a summoner and don't care to be, so really doesn't bother me. Get your knickers out of its knot, now. The primals we first fight aren't all that powerful, but they are summoned by followers and have followers. As the story goes on, it talks about such and such gathering crystals, etc. for a more powerful form of *insert primal*, so I don't get what you're saying at all. Again, summoners aren't worshipers/followers of the primals and as such, I don't see why they should have anything near as big/illustrious as the people who actually worship these primals do. I'm done discussing this with you, however, as you seem to be rather flustered.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Actually it has zero basis in lore whatsoever.

The premise of primals isn't that you need a ton of crystals and/or lives to summon them, it's that they're stronger the more of those things they have. We know this because in the main story quest both Ifrit and Titan are summoned by the cries of only 3 of their respective beast tribe members, none of which had any crystals in their possession that we know of. The only lore that exists to justify the egis is the lore they added specifically for summoner quests, in other words AFTER they decided to go the egi route.

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Uh...you need to pay attention to the story better, The Amal'ja Had been stealing shipments of crystals and kidnapping people prior to that in order to summon Ifrit, we just happened to be there at the culmination of their efforts, same goes for the Summoning of Titan, they also draw upon the collective belief of all their tempered thralls, not just the one doing the summoning. Only the Ixal had summoned the Primal previous to us showing up, but yet again the stealing of crystal shipments/kid napping of people was a major theme of the quests leading up to the fight. This is spelled out in the main story. in the 1.0 story line it was even pointed out the the Twelve can also be summoned in a similar fashion and was even floated by the Path of the Twelve/Scions of the Seventh Dawn as a possible solution to the whole Meteor Problem. but that it is just as detremental to the aetheric balance of the world as summoning the Primals, and would make us "No better than the Beast Tribes".

The lore for Summoner is that we're not calling upon belief or the power of the crystals. We're not summoning a willing Primal. we're forcibly binding a small amount of the aetheric essence of the Primal. Basically unlike WoW's Warlock or FFXI's Summoner who make contracts or blood pacts with their summons, we are, to use a more accurate term, "enslaving" the primal's essence. One could argue that FFXIV's Summoner is actually more "evil" than WoW's Warlock.

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Originally Posted by Akiza

I know Summoner's summon the Primals in the form of high spirits...

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Summoners do not summon the Primals in the form of High Spirits. In fact Summoners do not even summon the Primals at all. What Summoners actually summon is a small split off portion of the Primal's essence or power. The modern day summoners do not have the capability to individually summon full scale Primals the way you seem to want us to be able to. So please drop it. If you are unsatisfied with the Summoner class for aesthetic reasons go play something else.

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Originally Posted by Wobi

...It's most prevalant with anyone who played SMN in FFXI...

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Don't lump all former FFXI Summoners in the same ball of wax. Not all of us feel the same way as Akiza here.

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Originally Posted by LadyVal

Not all of them were short either, the FF8 GF Eden had like a 3 or 4 minute summon scene, I used to get up and get a snack while I summoned it. lol

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Why on earth would anyone waste their precious time getting a snack while summoning Eden, when they should be mashing their Square-Button so that they can BOOST Eden to 250... I mean it is the only summon in the game that you can do that for...

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Uh...you need to pay attention to the story better, The Amal'ja Had been stealing shipments of crystals and kidnapping people prior to that in order to summon Ifrit, we just happened to be there at the culmination of their efforts, same goes for the Summoning of Titan, they also draw upon the collective belief of all their tempered thralls, not just the one doing the summoning.

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During Garuda's story, outside of their respective homelands, with only 3, average beastmen and zero crystals they were summoned full sized and full bodied.

Pay attention to the story before telling other people to pay attention to the story.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

During Garuda's story, outside of their respective homelands, with only 3, average beastmen and zero crystals they were summoned full sized and full bodied.

Pay attention to the story before telling other people to pay attention to the story.

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Full sized, full bodied, and severely underpowered. Both Titan and Ifrit got pwned in 2 seconds flat. Garuda (who had substantial amounts of crystals, and a lot more Beastmen supporting her) lasted only a tiny bit of time longer than them.

If those three Primals had all been full powered, and they had been working together instead of poised to fight each other. They might have actually stood a chance against their actual enemy.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

During Garuda's story, outside of their respective homelands, with only 3, average beastmen and zero crystals they were summoned full sized and full bodied.

Pay attention to the story before telling other people to pay attention to the story.

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again, like I said, it was said that the Ixal had been stealing crystals and we had been told that the Primals draw upon the collective belief of ALL of their tempered thralls not just the ones actively doing the summoning and at that point Garuda had already been summoned and been wreaking havoc on settlements in Gridania for a few days. We are also told that when summoned in that fashion the Primals are Persistent until they are killed and the Ixal were still stealing crystals to both maintain and increase Garuda's power, so Garuda in that scene was not so much summoned, as just shows up. It is spelled out for you (admitly it was better explained in 1.0 as the Garuada/Ixal part of the Main story is just history repeating itself ).

Why is it assumed that anyone that wishes to see the appearance of Egis changed/improved wants something the size of a skyscraper?

I'd gladly settle for something the size of a Hyur or a Roegadyn...or even my chocobo.

I said this in response to her post in another thread and I'll say it again here:

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I thought it was proven via lore that SMN essentially molds the current pets out of 3 crystals (the ones that spin around them during summoning). They fuse the crystals together with aetheric and elemental energies. Since they're only using 3 crystals they get a much different looking pet from the primals while still maintaining a similar appearance. The reason the primals look the way they do is because of the tens of thousands of crystals the beast tribes use in their summoning. They would look much different than they do now with even more crystals used. The problem is that the more crystals you use, the more they look like their primal form, the less control over them the user will have.

I could see them adding a stance via job quest when the level cap is raised in order to use more crystals in your summoning. The stance would weaken the user, strengthen the pet, and make the user have less control over the pet for a more primal looking egi, similar to the ones that assist in the EX battles. Perhaps they'd gain actions to coerce their pets to do their bidding by sacrificing their Aetherflow stacks. Normally have no control over the egi, use of 1 stack gains you control for a short period of time, 2 stacks for a bit longer period of time, 3 stacks for even longer period of time. Or perhaps you could directly use just one attack per Aetherflow charge.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

During Garuda's story, outside of their respective homelands, with only 3, average beastmen and zero crystals they were summoned full sized and full bodied.

Pay attention to the story before telling other people to pay attention to the story.

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I thought that was covered with the Extreme Primals storyline? During the Garuda section of the story, the 3 beastmen of both tribes died summoning their Primal. Up to that point crystals and pray were the only means we knew of Primal summoning, with the Extreme storyline they explained that sacrifices work as well, did they not? Technically speaking, Crystals are just an easy source of Aether, literally just the crystallized form of it, so it's ideal for stocking and transporting for summonings. All creatures contain Aether too, so it stands to reason that sacrificial summonings would work on a similar principle, during that cutscene Garuda even commands them to surrender their Aether to her, so she could become more powerful (after we'd kicked her butt).

Pray is meant to give Primals form, that's something that even goes back to FFXI which actually had a similar lore behind summons. They were legends given form, Ozma was a legend that became forgotten and lost its form. Heck, there's even some FFX in there with the whole Pray thing... If you've done Turn 5, then it's also explained that;

The Allagan found a way to artificially recreate the pray used to sustain Bahamut, which allowed them to keep him captive and harness his power in Dalamud, long after his tribe vanished. That also explains what happened to Bahamut at the End of an Era trailer. Once he was free he was temporarily allowed to go on a rampage, but with no followers left, that didn't last. The ruins of Dalamud were able to maintain parts of him, now scattered across Eorzea. It's no wonder they cut to white there, it would have been pretty gruesome to show Bahamut literally being torn into pieces and spread across Eorzea with the remnants of his prison... The Allagan really were jerks...

So, I'd take it that praying alone can give a Primal form, but from there Aether is required to power them up. Again, the 3 followers during the Garuda cutscene sacrificed their own Aether and died to summon their Primals.

With Summoner we literally take the remnants of their Aether left on us after fighting them and meld it into an Egi. All the lore checks out in my opinion.

What I understood from this thread is the very few people pay real attetion to the story and all those texts every npc says. Summoners in this game will never summon full formed primals. The egi's could look better though without being a copy of the full primal ofc. They are supposed to be a weapon but they seem too cute for something dangerous. Maybe future egis will look better who knows.

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Originally Posted by Spellbinder

Why is it assumed that anyone that wishes to see the appearance of Egis changed/improved wants something the size of a skyscraper?

I'd gladly settle for something the size of a Hyur or a Roegadyn...or even my chocobo.

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Seems reasonable to me. Not a towering colossus so much as something that actually looks like it's a bigger threat than a well trained chocobo.

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Originally Posted by Diavolo

Well, the devs are damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had full blown primals, people would bitch that they weren't sticking to lore and that they are totally messing up the whole notion that a tonne of crystals and lives are needed to summon them. And since they decided to go the lore-friendly route, now people bitch that they aren't impressive enough (despite the fact that you're only summoning the ESSENCE of the primal, not the primal itself). There really is no way for them to win.

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Shouldn't they have thought of that when they where writing the story? Anyone that has any knowledge of FF series would know that Chocobos and the summons/summoner has become the key features people know of when you ask them about the Final Fantasy Series.

Or heck, the players got special "powah" against primals, they could have easily made a way for summoners to summon a de-powered Primal.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

Or heck, the players got special "powah" against primals, they could have easily made a way for summoners to summon a de-powered Primal.

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Like I said earlier, it's the fans fault. FFXIV was hated so much that they literally had to do everything to make ARR a Final Fantasy game in their eyes. That included putting Summoner in for launch.

If Summoner was actually summoning a depowered Primal, then that would have had to rush the story forward so much, the whole "Primals are evil that taint the very land they walk on" plot that has been going for all this time would basically have to be rushed to explain why Summoner can summon them anyway. Taking a portion of the Aether you were exposed to fighting the Primal, and melding that into your own pet Egi allows them to explain Summoner and not rush the plot, while still giving fans Summoner at launch. Currently the whole plot is building up to our Free Companies actually being able to summon Primals fully. Would I have liked that at launch? Hell yes I would, but it would have made the plot even more convoluted than it already is, there would simply have been far too much stuff going on and have made very little sense. What hasn't even been explained yet would have to be in the game by Lv30... Even if you just put it there, most of the Lv31+ plot would just fall apart at that point.

The only issue is how the Egis look, but I've hated how some summons looked in past Final Fantasy games already. I mean, Ixion instead of Ramuh? What the hell FFX. Clearly not a real Lightning Summon, the developers should have fixed that for the HD rerelease.

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Originally Posted by Nalien

I mean, Ixion instead of Ramuh? What the hell FFX. Clearly not a real Lightning Summon, the developers should have fixed that for the HD rerelease.

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The (most likely) reason for that may be same as to why FFVIII didn't have him as well (instead, we had Quetzacoatl): because the summons on those games could be "trained" and "taught" new stuff, something that would've been redundant/useless for someone as old and wise as Ramuh.
Thus, why they had to replace him with something else.

I'm more concerned as to why we didn't get Leviathan on FFX though, given how big the whole theme of water/sea was in that game (not to mention that it didn't even have any Water-based summon to complete the four-elemental ones)...now THAT's something I would have love to see on the HD re-release.

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Currently the whole plot is building up to our Free Companies actually being able to summon Primals fully.

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True, it's just from a FF series perspective, it makes more sense for the Summoner job to summon them then just random people.

And even then they could have made the plot work. If a a summoner summoned a de-powered one, then an FC would be more people = stronger Primal.

But meh, all that is "What If?" arguments since it's really hard for them to rewrite what's already in the game.

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Originally Posted by Amberion

True, it's just from a FF series perspective, it makes more sense for the Summoner job to summon them then just random people.

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But it doesn't from a MMO perspective. Summoner is one of the things you think of when you think Final Fantasy and it's really one of the most well know, overpowered, and flashy Jobs in the game. FFXs story revolved around the Job. In a MMO though, all Jobs should be equal. Again, Summoner is already overpowered in these regards even despite the work they put in. Black Mage gets Flare. White Mage gets Holy. Dragoon gets Dragonfire Dive. Summoner? That gets Aerial Blast, Earthen Fury, Inferno, and that's just the "ultimate" moves, as well as a gap which will only become greater when Summoner gets Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva -Egi.

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

I'm more concerned as to why we didn't get Leviathan on FFX though

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Wasn't Sin basically Leviathan? I seem to remember it basically being a summon Yu Yevon used to protect himself while he turned himself into a purple balloon. I felt it was a throwback to FFIV; Sin was the ultimate summon in Spira, in IV Leviathan was the King of Summons.

I think the Fayth Anima wound up inside would have once been the home of a full out water based aeon. As for lack of Ramuh... Exodus has it more or less right. The devs on FFVIII had a vision of the GFs in that game of being much more animalistic and Ramuh just didn't fit so they went with Quetzalcoatl. I haven't read anything really that states why in FFX they used Ixion though.

Why do people let Akiza's threads get them so riled up every week? T_T People, learn to recognize other posters, please....

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Originally Posted by Nalien

Wasn't Sin basically Leviathan? I seem to remember it basically being a summon Yu Yevon used to protect himself while he turned himself into a purple balloon.

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Not quite.
Sin is not exactly Water-based, but instead, Gravity-based, given that in order to get made, it had to attract a LARGE quantity of pyreflies, as well as having a Final Summoning as the base of it (which also explains why it had attacks such as Giga Graviton and the like).

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Originally Posted by Exodus-E

Not quite.
Sin is not exactly Water-based, but instead, Gravity-based, given that in order to get made, it had to attract a LARGE quantity of pyreflies, as well as having a Final Summoning as the base of it (which also explains why it had attacks such as Giga Graviton and the like).

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Plot twist; Leviathan has always been Gravity-based, and used that power to mess with the moon to create tidal waves !

Heck, you'd have thought Braska's Final Aeon would have been Water-based, rather than whatever that was. Jecht was a Blitzball star after all...

Off-topic, but, I predict mass disappointment Tuesday if new jobs are announced; something tells me that these jobs may not be what we think they are.

However, they could have implemented humanoid size essences as opposed to cooked fowl. They chose the easy route. In XI, there were ppl who complained about titan's size; does not take much effort to move the joystick away from him. It not like other players didn't overshadow you. My character was small, hence any group of non-taru would overshadow my character causing me to simply move over a little. Was not a huge deal to me and XI had ps2 limitations "Shrugs"

IT became a mess in FFXI if there were multiple SMNs or SMN monsters (Dynamis for instance) causing a whole pile of avatars to be around. It would be a bigger problem in FFXIV because the Egis are persistent with no perp cost meaning people aren't dismissing them to save MP. There can be a ton in Mor Dhona and if they were much bigger they'd be as obnoxious or WORSE than multiple people stomping around on Behemoth mounts. This is especially true right in front of the tome NPCs.

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Originally Posted by Lithera

IT became a mess in FFXI if there were multiple SMNs or SMN monsters (Dynamis for instance) causing a whole pile of avatars to be around. It would be a bigger problem in FFXIV because the Egis are persistent with no perp cost meaning people aren't dismissing them to save MP. There can be a ton in Mor Dhona and if they were much bigger they'd be as obnoxious or WORSE than multiple people stomping around on Behemoth mounts. This is especially true right in front of the tome NPCs.

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As a small model taru, multiple mobs and humes around caused clutter problems for me, hence I would move to a place where my char was more visible. It was a non-issue for me, but that is just me.

My take on this is egi's should stay the same size or close to it but take on a form much more like the Primal their essence came from. Much bigger as stated elsewhere in this thread would create a big mess in heavily graphical areas and heavily crowded areas. The way the Egi's act when you fight them you would think they would actually have a bit more lively and threatening look to them. Their current look isn't horrible it just feels wrong.

Garuda is a stupid bird, but she's my stupid bird and I love her.

IMO, Ifrit and Ramuh don't look bad. Titan and Garuda suffer horribly from poor texture decisions though. The lack of contrast really makes them look "meh" in my opinion.

Even then Ifrit, Garuda and Titan all look like they could easily be transplanted into another game, as-is, labeled "Elemental Sprites" and no one would be the wiser.

I'm not saying the Egis need to be bigger, but some extra detail on them should probably be in order, especially with Garuda and Titan.