Dragoons need to be buffed...

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Originally Posted by ChaozK

Well a BLM/SMN has roughly 80% more magic defense than a DRG but a DRG does not have 80% more HP. The problem more or less lies in the way the encounters are designed to rarely have AOEs with physical dmg, making the advantage that DRG has in physical defense less relevant.

I have seen statistics showing DRGs on average losing roughly 71% life by AOEs, with other classes losing less.
Then on the other hand all mechanics that actually deal phyisical dmg, DRG is in a huge advantage, due to having higher HP on top of higher physical defense. Its just that they are far and few between.

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There's more physical damage AoEs that people realize, though, especially among small pbaoe stuff. Though a lot of major physical damage AoEs are avoidable, i think, so that lessons the value of higher physical defense.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Has nothing to do with what mandatory means. I used to be annoyed with positioning on DRG until I levelled monk. Now, the positioning on drg doesn't bother me in the slightest.

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But you can just sit on the rear the entire time on Monk and never lose Greased Lightning stacks. Thus there is no mandatory positional for Monk. Now do that with Dragoon.

It's less annoying on Monk, but I haven't leveled Dragoon because that class looks boring. I only get sad when tank is spinning mobs and I lose DPS because of missed a positional but won't ever lose Greased Lightning from it.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

The positionals on DRG are not mandatory for anything other than maximizing dps either.

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Which is literally the reason you're there...

How did this even turn into a pissing contest about positionals between Monk and Dragoon? It sucks a lot on both classes, and it's a pretty good DPS loss on BOTH classes.

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Originally Posted by Ricdeau

How did this even turn into a pissing contest about positionals between Monk and Dragoon? It sucks a lot on both classes, and it's a pretty good DPS loss on BOTH classes.

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I'll never understand the need for people to play the 'both sides' card in every debate. I don't agree at all w/ the OP but you cannot discuss equity or class balancing without discussing melee positionals.

What's there to discuss though? It sucks for both Monk and Dragoon quite a bit if you are losing positionals. Neither can do optimal damage if they are missing positionals. There's nothing really to discuss or argue about it. Dragoon has less positionals with a higher penalty for missing those exact moves. Monk has more positionals with a lesser penalty, but more opportunities to miss them. In all honesty I can't really say that one has it worse than the other in this regard. I feel that it really weighs itself out in the end, and I would say the balance that the devs have struck between Monk and Dragoon shows that.

I don't disagree with a word of any of that.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Monks have Mantra and Stun (AotD, One Ilm Punch for mobs).

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Dragoon can have Mantra too, albeit weaker version since it's cross-class. AoTD/OIP, when do trash mobs even matter?

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Bards have songs

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2 of them (Paeon and Ballad) lowers their own DPS. Weren't for the songs, there would be no bards ever in a raid group.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Black Mages have Apocatastasis, (Sleep for mobs)

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Apocastasis is only useful with Twintania Fireball and maybe turn 9 (idk, haven't put much time into it) but even then it's minor useful that you can heal through. As for mobs, look above in monk section.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

Meanwhile Dragoons only have two stuns

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Did you forget about the amount of burst Dragoons can bring to the table with their various cooldowns? Can I also have an aggro dump abilities like Elusive Jump and/or more mobilities from your Jumps? If your FC doesn't want to raid with you because you're a dragoon (this info from months ago before Dragoon got a buff) then time to update your info and/or find another FC.

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Originally Posted by Taleon

What is surprising to me, is that the added effect of Boot Shine has not been brought into this conversation. If Dragoons had such an effect added to say Vorpal Thrust when under the effects of Dis and Heavy Thrust, yeah this would make the class much more balanced in terms of current DPS line ups.

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I also play both Monk i100 and Dragoon i95 but I don't see how adding auto crit to Vorpal Thrust would make it balanced. Bootshine has 150 potency, required to hit from behind AND in opo-opo form to get auto crit while Vorpal Thrust has a combo potency of 200 (who would use it without True Thrust first?), no positional requirements with auto crit would be too OP followed by 330 potency Full Thrust.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

But you can just sit on the rear the entire time on Monk and never lose Greased Lightning stacks. Thus there is no mandatory positional for Monk. Now do that with Dragoon.

It's less annoying on Monk, but I haven't leveled Dragoon because that class looks boring. I only get sad when tank is spinning mobs and I lose DPS because of missed a positional but won't ever lose Greased Lightning from it.

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>_>'

You're joking...right?

While I agree the positional requirements for both classes are a pain compared to the non melee dps, they are not that difficult to where it kills the class.
Yes, I play both Monk and Dragoon. Yes, I have both of them geared though the Dragoon is a bit further at 104-105 and the Monk at 98. Both of them, are solid dps classes. I have cleared T9, so yes, I understand where both of them fall off in phase 4. The Monk, is a bit more forgiving in my opinion with that it does NOT require positioning to get the added buffs for GL and dmg buff from Twin, only maximizing the dmg output from a Monk.
What is surprising to me, is that the added effect of Boot Shine has not been brought into this conversation. If Dragoons had such an effect added to say Vorpal Thrust when under the effects of Dis and Heavy Thrust, yeah this would make the class much more balanced in terms of current DPS line ups.


Please do not use Dragoon Jumps btw as something better then Shoulder Tackle in terms of a gap closing mobility. I would give up my two gap closers to have the CD of Shoulder Tackle, even with the range requirement.

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Originally Posted by Taleon

Please do not use Dragoon Jumps btw as something better then Shoulder Tackle in terms of a gap closing mobility. I would give up my two gap closers to have the CD of Shoulder Tackle, even with the range requirement.

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Amen to that.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

>_>'

You're joking...right?

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How is his post wrong? You lose potency, for sure. But you can stay at the rear and still maintain GL3.

Indeed, they lose potency, but are able to keep up both GL and Twin buff. Not to mention, what happens when you stack two Monks in a group ?
Need only check the results of BG and their Monk parsing 475 was it ?

I am not against Monks, just trying to even out the opinionated remarks from the people that do not understand both the classes.

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Originally Posted by Taleon

Indeed, they lose potency, but are able to keep up both GL and Twin buff. Not to mention, what happens when you stack two Monks in a group ?

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Just like how you're able to keep up both Heavy Thrust and Disembowel? Indeed Monks have better synergy with each other compared to Dragoons since they only need 1 to keep up Dragon Kick while Dragoons have to use Disembowel to get to Chaos Thrust but a good group would take both to avoid wasted gears. I wish my group was MNK DRG BRD SMN/BLM so any gears dropped are claimed but we'll work with what we've got.

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Originally Posted by Taleon

Need only check the results of BG and their Monk parsing 475 was it ?

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Proof? And what ilevel? I'd love to do 475. o.O Though my tanks might not appreciate it. -.-"

Do not think there is a single Dragoon that would give up applying their own Chaos Thrust line to just use TT line even knowing their Dis is being overwritten. If there is one playing with you :P lol kick him for one that knows that a single Chaos line is more dmg then a TT line ^^

Not sure of the Ilevel to be honest with you, just know there was one Monk to keep DK up full time and the other to see how high he could push. With admittance of parsing being bannable to the main forums here, I do not think you will find any "proof" Just going off from what was told to me ^^

So far I've gotten the impression that a Dragoon is pretty much only good for buffing Bard DPS and for not wasting dropped gear...

Would not say they are a waste. There are a number of fights, where they are just as equally useful as a Monk, so do not look at it that way. The difference between Monks and Dragoons are a trade off, both have advantages, both have disadvantages. Heavier ST dmg from a Monk, lesser ST but better AoE from a Dragoon. ( and it is decent AoE if they know how to :P ) Both share the same cross classing, so very close in many aspects.
I started playing a Monk, only because it was a waste of gear in my group for Monks, and I would always have half the gear set done since Monks and Dragoons share right side slots.

Most of the time, regardless what people preach, it comes down to Raid Make up Preference to chooses which is more useful.

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Originally Posted by Jollyy5

So far I've gotten the impression that a Dragoon is pretty much only good for buffing Bard DPS and for not wasting dropped gear...

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Why do you have to stick with Monk vs Dragoon instead of Monk and Dragoon? There is nothing in coil 2 that purnishes having them both. Turn 7 is even easier for healer to have 2 melees as Circle of Flame always target the same people. At the end of the day, Dragoon still do better single target DPS than BLM and BRD. It just shows your insecurity because of something your FC said months ago that doesn't hold true anymore. Find people that accepts you for who you are or change other people's mind by proving them wrong. My FC used to hate healing me when I was a Warrior (the only one in my FC, other tanks are all Paladins) but after seeing how good I was at it, they have a better outlook on Warrior now.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Just like how you're able to keep up both Heavy Thrust and Disembowel?

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Dragoon positionals are mandatory, though. If a heavy thrust misses the flank or impulse drive misses the rear, this halts the dragoon's entire rotation. Missing a single flank/rear for a monk is only a temporary potency loss as it does not interrupt your combo or rotation.

Back on topic. I wouldn't say no to a shorter gap closer but dont' feel dragoons really need a dps boost.

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Originally Posted by BlackThought

Which is literally the reason you're there...

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You don't read much, do you?

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

Dragoon positionals are mandatory, though. If a heavy thrust misses the flank or impulse drive misses the rear, this halts the dragoon's entire rotation. Missing a single flank/rear for a monk is only a temporary potency loss as it does not interrupt your combo or rotation.

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And that's the trade off you have to make. Mandatory positionals but only 2 skills required or non-mandatory positionals but 6 skills depend on it. It's a DPS loss regardless.

Drgs are nothing to sneeze at. Their sustain is lower then Mnks, but they are still the king of bursts. They can burst like no tomorrow if you need them to. 3 GCD to max out damage mods is a dang fine thing.

They balancing each other decently. Sometimes mnks are good, sometimes drg are good, sometimes both aren't bad.

And mandatory positional aren't really...that mandatory. Heavy is a 1st step, and ID is a 1st step. The only 2 you need to be in position are both 1st step.

That means at most you loose a GCD worth of damage, and that's way way way better then loosing GL. that requires 9 steps.

If a drg isn't stingy about his timing, that means his buffs like BfB and IR are both well timed to be right in the middle of a no positional rotation, making the duration even more damaging.

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

How is his post wrong? You lose potency, for sure. But you can stay at the rear and still maintain GL3.

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He says:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

But you can just sit on the rear the entire time on Monk and never lose Greased Lightning stacks. Thus there is no mandatory positional for Monk. Now do that with Dragoon.

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Out of position MNK loses 75 potency on Boostshine; 50 potency on dragon kick; and 40 potency on true strike, snap punch, twin snakes and demolish. DPS loss ranges from a whopping 50% to a still really terrible 26%.

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

Just eyeballing it I would guess that the DPS loss for both classes is actually around the same. But guesswork aside, it's just flat out wrong to state that MNK loses almost nothing being out of position because "GL will still be up". A MNK does not need to be in position to activate their buffs but the trade-off is a DPS loss on all of their abilities when done out of position (with the exception of Touch of Death and...Haymaker :rolleyes:)

Neither are "mandatory", but you'll probably be out-DPS'd by a BRD if you ignore all positional requirements for both classes.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Out of position DRG loses Heavy Thrust buff (15%) and jaw dropping 70% and 80% from Heavy Thrust and Impulse Drive respectively, however the rest of their rotation doesn't suffer aside from the flat loss of 15%. There's also the matter of how often each of those moves show up within their rotation...blah blah blah.

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That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That means at most you loose a GCD worth of damage, and that's way way way better then loosing GL. that requires 9 steps.

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GL is not lost from positional requirements, DRG's buff and DOT rotation are halted completely when not done in the right place. I understand your statement, but it has nothing to do with positional requirement.

MNK has a slower ramp-up, and ultimately has the best DPS. DRG has a more mechanically vulnerable, yet quicker ramp up. I think the balance between the two is perfect.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

If a drg isn't stingy about his timing, that means his buffs like BfB and IR are both well timed to be right in the middle of a no positional rotation, making the duration even more damaging.

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Unfortunately, DRG's buffs are usually best used during the positional part of the rotation.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

Neither are "mandatory", but you'll probably be out-DPS'd by a BRD if you ignore all positional requirements for both classes.

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I don't understand why you replied. You stated "you're joking right" yet you reinforced what Exstal said. A monk will lose potency but can sit at the rear of a boss and maintain 100% uptime on his buffs. Ergo, monk buffs are not mandatory on position. Heavy thrust and Impluse Drive buffs (let alone the choas thrust combo) can only activate with landing the correct position. Ergo, they are mandatory. As noted, neither class will play well without landing positionals.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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Outside of Demon Wall in AK (only cannot reach the rear) how often does this occur? No other fight comes to mind. A monk, however, will lose more dps when boss mechanics cause GL to drop off over a dragoon starting up again (as noted by Jet).

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

That is wrong. Since HT and ID are both 1st steps. Meaning you loose 3 seconds of re-try (why would anyone continue on a rotation they missed). This would lead to a decision by Drgs to either skip a skill in the rotation to make up for the debuff or continue the rotation and loose the debuff early.

The intelligent drg would probably loose phebo, to shorten their rotation on Dsc (since HT is usually applied 1st in the rotation), or they can loose 15% on a FT which is like what? 20-30pot?

Massively minor.

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Well yeah, it helps that those are starting moves. That's why I mentioned when they show up within the rotation (which for brevity I shortened).

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Originally Posted by mythicrose

I don't understand why you replied. You stated "you're joking right" yet you reinforced what Exstal said. A monk will lose potency but can sit at the rear of a boss and maintain 100% uptime on his buffs. Ergo, monk buffs are not mandatory on position. Heavy thrust and Impluse Drive buffs (let alone the choas thrust combo) can only activate with landing the correct position. Ergo, they are mandatory. As noted, neither class will play well without landing positionals.

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My stance is this: MNK must always be positioned. DRG must be positioned at key moments. To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation. If he's talking only about what is needed to activate buffs than yes, he is correct. But I got the sense that he was talking about DPS in general. Not just about positional buffs.

EDIT: Yeah I just double-checked, the reply was just about positionals. Not specifically positional buffs.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

To me, having to ALWAYS meet positional requirements on all abilities is far more annoying than only having to meet it twice in a very long rotation.

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I don't disagree, but the mentioned "very long rotation" has 5 positionals, not 2.

If DRG gets a buff to his damage, can monk get a buff to where GL3 is always on? /sarcasm off.

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Originally Posted by YanderePrincess

Look at it this way. Which class loses more dps in a situation where position-bonuses can't be used, period?

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In any race but a sustain dps race drg wins. That's what being a drg is all about. They are the all-purpose-goto-dps.

Drg should never be in a position where they are worthless. They cover pretty much all their bases at the cost of being top dog.

Can't get positional?, use strength pots.
One could also accept the fact that some fights arent going to be their time to shine.

It depends. If it's a situation where it's an add that keeps turning different ways or running around... Say in Levi ex the tank, for whatever reason, doesn't have aggro. May you miss HT and/or ID a few times. Or maybe there is an add that is cornered to the point when you cannot land ID from the rear and thus cannot land Dis and CT.

In these situations MNK likely has a bit of an advantage. How great of one I am not sure. Haven't really done the calculations so maybe I'm even completely wrong. I suppose it also depends how much the particular DRG keeps trying to land HT and/or ID, or if they immediately apply Phleb and start doing the now rather underpowered thrust combo. Having bfb available will certainly help, if available.

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Originally Posted by givemeraptors

My stance is this: MNK must always be positioned. DRG must be positioned at key moments.

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For optimal DPS, of course. But you can miss a positional on Monk and still be alright (keeping up Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, Demolish), with the loss being in potency for that GCD. Miss a key positional on Dragoon, and you lose the change to activate the next chain. To me, and those who read things literally, that is mandatory. If you can't advance chain because it is in the wrong spot, then it's mandatory that you do it in the right spot. Doesn't have to do with DPS, it has to do with what you can and can't do afterwards.

I'm somewhat flabbergasted that we spent 3 pages on this. It's a very simple concept that did't actually need to be discussed in depth. Monk is cooler anyway. Break dance > falling from the sky

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

I don't disagree, but the mentioned "very long rotation" has 5 positionals, not 2.

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I know you know Dragoon, Jet.. I've been Dragooning a while, too, but what are the 5 positions? Heavy thrust is flank and Impulse drive is rear.. Am I missing something? Lol..

As a side note, I started working on Pugilist a bit more since getting the fists from t5.. I don't really like it compared to Dragoon, like every other attack you have to change from flank to rear.. Dragoon is once on the side, immediately rear, then you can hang out for like 18 seconds where ever you want until needing to reapply HT

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Originally Posted by Exstal

For optimal DPS, of course. But you can miss a positional on Monk and still be alright (keeping up Twin Snakes, Dragon Kick, Demolish), with the loss being in potency for that GCD. Miss a key positional on Dragoon, and you lose the change to activate the next chain. To me, and those who read things literally, that is mandatory. If you can't advance chain because it is in the wrong spot, then it's mandatory that you do it in the right spot. Doesn't have to do with DPS, it has to do with what you can and can't do afterwards.

I'm somewhat flabbergasted that we spent 3 pages on this. It's a very simple concept that did't actually need to be discussed in depth. Monk is cooler anyway. Break dance > falling from the sky

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There is rarely any fight that is impossible, only momentary impossible. Thus you are blowing things out of proportion. You simply "try again" and shorten your rotation momentary.

Again they are both 1 step. There is no real damage lost on the scale of mnks. You can immediately try again for that 1 second window on rear/flank, before being in any position.

Seriously play a mnk. it's hair pulling.

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Originally Posted by Exstal

To me, and those who read things literally, that is mandatory. If you can't advance chain because it is in the wrong spot, then it's mandatory that you do it in the right spot. Doesn't have to do with DPS, it has to do with what you can and can't do afterwards.

I'm somewhat flabbergasted that we spent 3 pages on this. It's a very simple concept that did't actually need to be discussed in depth

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Wow, someone that plays a Monk and not a Dragoon at 50 yet and still gets it ??

Whiskey, changes a bit more at 50, it more like rotation side, rotation back, rotation side and ofc some mix up, but not as much dancing as you might think ^^

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Originally Posted by Taleon

Whiskey, changes a bit more at 50, it more like rotation side, rotation back, rotation side and ofc some mix up, but not as much dancing as you might think ^^

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Yea I'm not giving up on it, I have practically all the allagan gear for it now so I might as well get it to 50. Just fairly new at it, takes a bit to remember which ability is rear or flank, after Dragooning for so long it makes my brain hurt xD

LOL tell me about it.
I started the same way, only had enough for a few of the cross classes I wanted, but started to pick up a little Monk gear in 6-9 so figured why not. Gave me something to do as well to keep me interested in the game.
But yeah, simplifies a bit when you get to 50, more then I admit I thought it would, is a nice change up from playing only Dragoon from a melee view.
Sadly, buddy of mine that mains Monk, has more High Allagan on his Dragoon, then myself or his Monk main, so started doing the same in regards to Dragoon.

The "very long rotation", and I'm starting to like that name haha, requires 3 Heavy Thrusts and 2 Impulse Drives.

If we're talking about number of times having to have moved throughout a rotation, DRG has to be positioned for 5 abilities, not 2. Still not the end of the world, but people that say "only 2 per rotation" are off by more than 100%. All I'm saying =p

Let me reiterate, I think MNK and DRG are balanced perfectly, and that I've only taken part in this discussion (as usual) to help correct misinformation/misunderstandings.

I'm far more interested in the buff to BLM's single-target DPS. It's pretty unrewarding to be on the ball (as funny as that may sound to those unfamiliar with playing BLM well) with BLM on single targets.

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Originally Posted by JetBrooks

The "very long rotation", and I'm starting to like that name haha, requires 3 Heavy Thrusts and 2 Impulse Drives.

If we're talking about number of times having to have moved throughout a rotation, DRG has to be positioned for 5 abilities, not 2. Still not the end of the world, but people that say "only 2 per rotation" are off by more than 100%. All I'm saying =p

Let me reiterate, I think MNK and DRG are balanced perfectly, and that I've only taken part in this discussion (as usual) to help correct misinformation/misunderstandings.

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Ahh, that's what I thought you meant, the total amount of positionals in the "very long rotation". A minor technicality, I think.