End the Debate? Hardcore and Regular Servers

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

People may not know this, but playing the game is actually more fun then whining about it on the forums.

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*Starts jotting down notes*

"Playing....game..... is.... more... fun.... than whining......"

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

People may not know this, but playing the game is actually more fun then whining about it on the forums.

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This may be the most important post in the history of these boards.

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Originally Posted by DSX

http://i5.minus.com/ih4nqfmZTYDbY.jpg

as long as this picture is true this game is incapable of hardcore servers or content.

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Ah yes, "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the most hardcore game ever invented...

XI's BLM could boiled down in a similiarly biased way to...

"A wild PUGIL appears!"

"BLM casts LIGHTNING!...It was super effective!"

"wild Pugil faints."

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Ah yes, "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the most hardcore game ever invented...

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While I found it quite amusing when I just started playing, it is indeed quite a stupid comparison.
Apart from the fact that both games carry the same name, are from the same company and have several similarities we're talking about two completely different games with completely different mechanics.

Now to shit on this comparison a little, for fun.
If we really were to boil down BLM usefulness in endgame between both games (bar in mind I have quit FFXI over 6 months ago so things may have changed):
FFXI: Stun! Oh no, who am I kidding? We have Scholars for that! Do you have another job?
FFXIV: You have one job soldier: Blow that shit to hell!

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

Ah yes, "Rock, Paper, Scissors" the most hardcore game ever invented...

XI's BLM could boiled down in a similiarly biased way to...

"A wild PUGIL appears!"

"BLM casts LIGHTNING!...It was super effective!"

"wild Pugil faints."

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Originally Posted by Shirai

While I found it quite amusing when I just started playing, it is indeed quite a stupid comparison.
Apart from the fact that both games carry the same name, are from the same company and have several similarities we're talking about two completely different games with completely different mechanics.

Now to shit on this comparison a little, for fun.
If we really were to boil down BLM usefulness in endgame between both games (bar in mind I have quit FFXI over 6 months ago so things may have changed):
FFXI: Stun! Oh no, who am I kidding? We have Scholars for that! Do you have another job?
FFXIV: You have one job soldier: Blow that shit to hell!

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My point was not about specific games but how deep the rabbit hole can go in terms of gameplay mechanics compared to FFXIV. So that picture could have any other game on the left side with the same complexity as FFXI gameplay mechanics and my statement would be the same. If you don't have the necessary gameplay mechanics needed for a deep and high level challenge then you simply mathematically cannot do it and you are simply locked to shuffling simpleton fights.

let me repost what i said before yet again:

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Originally Posted by DSX

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

An easy skillset does not means you cannot play hardcore. See GW's PvP as a working example of the past.

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Having a gameplay complexity that respects my intelligence is the cornerstone IMHO. without it you are forever locked in simpleton gameplay mechanics however you like to shuffle it, because it is mathematically impossible to have any high level challenges

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Originally Posted by LalaRu

Then, even if the idea to divide players in "pro" and "carebears" goes live, I am pretty sure a good number of "pro" goes to play in "carebear" server for the lolz to slap newbz.

Then, a number of regular will go to hardcore because their ego doesn't want them feel "inferior" to anyone.

Result: nothing changes.

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This is understandable since it is typical human behavior so yes we will see it but I don't think it will be on a large scale.

But again even if they do separate servers those new servers are not "hardcore" because as I have stated:

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Originally Posted by DSX

http://i5.minus.com/ih4nqfmZTYDbY.jpg

as long as this picture is true this game is incapable of hardcore servers or content.

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I not only approved of this idea, I suggested it that one glorious day I was Naoki Yoshida. Granted I took things overboard but the gist was the same. Granted I know the end result would be the hardcore fleeing in droves back to the normal servers because it's too hard and there's too many better players. Still I am curious to see if that would shut up all of the "Go back to WoW, scrub/carebear/casual." remarks.

And finally for your enjoyment my original post:

Producer/Director Yoshida here, due to suggestions regarding the game's difficulty we will be adding a new super-mega-epic-elite-hardcore server. This server will have drop rates set at .01% for all items, even quest items. Vendor prices, housing prices, and market board taxes will also be increased by 2000%. Also to cater to the most hardcore of our players all monsters's special attacks will now one shot the players. If there is high enough demand for more difficulty we will consider adding in perma-death.

And as a special feature anyone on the forums who mention that the current game is too easy will have their characters automatically transferred to our new server for free.

Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by DSX

My point was not about specific games but how deep the rabbit hole can go in terms of gameplay mechanics compared to FFXIV.

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A rabbithole no one jumped into. Ya, you had a lot of spells, but 90% of them you never touched because they would never land, weren't helpful, or weren't MP efficient. MB's were ok, but not that complex. The charts made it look much harder than it was. Just boiled down to waiting for other DD's doing their thing then hitting your 1 spell. Also, to be fair to FFXIV here, that picture fails to mention the MP upkeep mechanic (umbral Ice), enhanced ability procs, and other tricks you can do.

.......Also what does this have to do with the OP? This thread makes no sense at all...

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

The hardcore server would be empty - hardcores wouldn't play.

They need casuals to "show off" to and to make snippy one liners to and post overused internet meme pictures.... and having casuals seeing all content and getting rewards would kill their e-peen and make being a special butterfly impossible.

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You really think the majority of those players fit this stereotype? Do you think there is something inherent about pushing content that makes someone a lesser human being compared to yourself? I've often found quite the opposite, it tends to be players who don't push content and really have nothing to "show off" who behave in the way you suggest.

Also everyone likes to pretend someone's old class required a brain surgeon to play. It's as old as Feral DPS. This isn't Last Starfighter.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

A rabbithole no one jumped into. Ya, you had a lot of spells, but 90% of them you never touched because they would never land, weren't helpful, or weren't MP efficient. MB's were ok, but not that complex. The charts made it look much harder than it was. Just boiled down to waiting for other DD's doing their thing then hitting your 1 spell. Also, to be fair to FFXIV here, that picture fails to mention the MP upkeep mechanic (umbral Ice), enhanced ability procs, and other tricks you can do.

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How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

My point is the deeper your rabbit hole is the more variety of gameplay options are mathematically possible for the gameplay designers and the battle designers to implement in the game and the a wide spectrum from simple battles to a very high complex battles that challenge your mind before challenging your button pressing speed (and so some players also challenging their internet ping speed). FFXIV simple and shallow gameplay mechanics can only allow for simpleton battle mechanics that get shuffled from fight to fight.

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

.......Also what does this have to do with the OP? This thread makes no sense at all...

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Well the OP advocating "hardcore servers" and what I'm saying is that this game is incapable mathematically of "hardcore" content and so incapable of "hardcore" servers.

I think most people are misremembering how complicated FF11's blm really was. By the time I joined in 2006 no one bothered with skill chains. Even in endgame it was all "Go when you have the tp." So blms either just ran the gauntlet of the elemental wheel or focused on the one spell the monster was weak against and prayed the ninja could keep it's attention.

I see a few problems here. Namely, how would you define hardcore for this type of thing? I have almost all battle classes to 50 yet I haven't done EX Primals or Coil. Where does something like that fit in between people that are doing EX/Coil and the people that haven't even got their first 50 yet?

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Originally Posted by DSX

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

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the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output,and status effects tied to many spells. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

I don't know why this is so hard for you guys to imagine. It'd just be a server that's harder, smaller HP pools, steeper death penalties, harder leveling, etc, etc, etc. It's certainly not creative or anything, but the game isn't "mathematically incapable" of having a server like that. Like the Siege Perilous shard in UO. Certainly it might not be popular of financially sound but we don't have to pretend it's some n-hard compsci puzzle to make a server that's harder.

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Originally Posted by DSX

How much you used was completely dependent on what type of game play you chose for yourself especially when people choose to just go with the flow or experiment with things and also what content you chose to do and what content you chose to ignore but that is beside my point so let me explain please.

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The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.

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Originally Posted by DSX

Well the OP advocating "hardcore servers" and what I'm saying is that this game is incapable mathematically of "hardcore" content and so incapable of "hardcore" servers.

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This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

the rabbit hole you mention in XI went as deep as the elemental wheel (This mob is a water type, better use my lightning type pokemIMEAN Spell) and the Magic Burst system which was as complex as...Hit spell at this time, this thing happens. and your picture dumbs down XIV to just the abilities while not getting into the Combo system, Cross Class abilites, the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice system which not only effects MP regen but DPS output. Basically the picture removed all of XIV's complexity, and showing XI's "complexity" for the sake of making XI look less shallow than it actually was.

basically if the picture was not biased as it is, it would show both the Aoe and Single target rotation a "Good" BLM in XIV would use. which would look as cluttered as the XI side, but would have more mechanics in it.

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As I mentioned before the picture was an example and not about what games it featured in it specifically (maybe seeing FFXI hits a chord with you so you ignored that I said its not about what game was on the left). People tend to mention what what they like personally, and yes the FFXIV side does not mention MP upkeep but look at yourself, you failed to mention how having multiple tiers of the same spell for example furthers the complexity of spell usage in FFXI for example and there is many more example of ignored things on both sides of that picture. BUT again let me explain to you the part of my point you missed:

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as how complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

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Originally Posted by DSX

look at the magnitude of complexity a game can offer in terms of gameplay
based on that you can calculate mathematically how many varieties you can implement in your game, your variety is as good as hoe complex your gameplay mechanics can go (how deep you made your rabbit hole). FFXIV magnitude of complexity is shallow and only allow for shuffling of simpleton mechanics only. (if you are still hung on FFXI being in the picture at least the base gameplay mechanics depth was deep enough for a lot of things whether the developers used it or not thats up to them and for the players to look forward to while in FFXIV case the game does NOT allow for in depth complexity because the game mathematically cannot produce it).

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And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

Instead of trying to segregate hardcores vs. casuals, why don't we just give more incentive for hardcores to play with casuals. Add something like a new type of tome that you get for having a player in your party who has never completed that specific duty? Have those tomes used to make the best gear in the game better. Sure, you could run through a bunch of stuff with your current FC,LS, etc. but eventually you would have to reach out to new people, so there would be a certain point where the hardcores are looking for noobs to help. If something like this was implemented it would make the most hardcore player also the most helpful to everyone else.

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Originally Posted by Maduro

Instead of trying to segregate hardcores vs. casuals, why don't we just give more incentive for hardcores to play with casuals. Add something like a new type of tome that you get for having a player in your party who has never completed that specific duty? Have those tomes used to make the best gear in the game better. Sure, you could run through a bunch of stuff with your current FC,LS, etc. but eventually you would have to reach out to new people, so there would be a certain point where the hardcores are looking for noobs to help. If something like this was implemented it would make the most hardcore player also the most helpful to everyone else.

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Because then the Hardcores I know will just start complaining say that SE does nerf Atma RNG and makes it static style drops, they'll say "This is too easy, I should be the only one with Animus" or rather they'll say something else in different words but truly mean what I quoted.

lol @ trying to level a new job on a hardcore server. "i've been waiting in the DF que for cutters cry for 3 days"

Hmm, Hardcore server
2.3 Hardcore: Coil 1-5 get removed. Please speed up to clear Coil 5 or the character get transfered to a casual server

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Originally Posted by Clavaat

The game had been picked apart to the point where everyone knew what was useful and what wasn't. Experiments had been made, numbers crunched, and people found what the most efficient ways of playing were, and you basically stuck to it. FFXIV is the exact same way in that regard. The system in FFXI was not complex, and the bosses did not reflect any deeper understanding of the game, either.



This is just asinine of you to say. Mathematically incapable of hardcore...wow.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

And yet again your example is BAD. the complexity you're trying to trumpet didn't exist in XI either, there were just as many if not more "Optimal Setups" (we all remember LolDRG) and everything was brought down to the same X DPS, X HPS, keep out of the bad. all XI had was more ability bloat (How many BRD songs were actually useful? 4? 2 if you counted Mage Ballads 1 and 2 as just the same song?) and more redundant classes. Long story short, show me a game where your "math" works, and I'll let it go, but XI sure as heck wasn't it and that's all you've used as an example. Heck even Eve Onlines oft touted "Hardcore"ness can be boiled down to its nature of being "World of Spreadsheets" and punishing Open World PvP environment.

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let me simplify it further for both of you:

- pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available) (the larger the number of mechanics available in the pool the more complex these battles can be) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers can reuse this subset or another subset or mix and match from that larger pool. The players know for a fact that they could get more gameplay mechanics than what they got in these battles they cleared and the developers can actually deliver that because the base gameplay mechanics pool had much more to be used.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool.

-smaller pool that contains a certain number of gameplay mechanics > the developers choose what to use from this pool in their battles design (so a subset of what is available OR the whole thing if its a shallow pool) > the players grind it and choose what is most effective among what the developers used in their pool (a subset of the developers subset).
as a result the developers has less options in their pool left for the future. The players know for a fact that they could not get more gameplay mechanics than what they got because that's all there is in the base pool and the developers can only shuffle what they already done in term of gameplay mechanics for the new content because that is all what they have.
*simple but not accurate indication is to calculate the combinations possible of said base pool and you will find that you mathematically have less options and thus shallower battles.

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Originally Posted by DSX

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okay, yet again... Your only example had the same or lesser pool to work with, you haven't given an example that statisfies your own critieria yet.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

okay, yet again... Your only example had the same or lesser pool to work with, you haven't given an example that statisfies your own critieria yet.

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first:
Are you claiming that FFXI had a smaller gameplay mechanics pool than FFXIV pool?

second:
whether you personally believe it exist or not is not my point or topic (it wasn't about FFXI complexity either go back and see that I mentioned a number of times that FFXI was not my point and i told YOU sepcifically about it too but you conveniently ignore that fact), it all was about FFXIV complexity and how much it can offer based on that base pool of gameplay mechanics the game has to offer.

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Originally Posted by DSX

first:
Are you claiming that FFXI had a smaller gameplay mechanics pool than FFXIV pool?

second:
whether you personally believe it exist or not is not my point or topic (it wasn't about FFXI complexity either), it all was about FFXIV complexity and how much it can offer based on that base pool of gameplay mechanics the game has to offer.

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First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math", the only one given so far was a biased picture of "gameplay mechanics" straight from pokemon on XI and no gameplay mechanics mentioned for XIV on their respective BLMs. And then you just repeating yourself while constantly ignoring the dissenting opinion.

nit's not a case of not getting your "point", it's that your "point" so far is based in biased logic and a lack of supporting evidence.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

First, Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.

and your second is you just shouting "CHCK TEH MATHS" without giving any kind of practical example that statisfies your "math".

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let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that

FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that


this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

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Originally Posted by DSX

let's get to it than shall we?

FFXIV:
(list the number of abilities a blm has
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from cross-class abilities)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that about as many if not more actually effective abilities than XI now you need to look a situational uses, effectiveness, and considering stats, realtive builds, thus creating the same class that fills different niches and optimal rotations
FFXI:
(list the number of abilities a blm has now lets subtract the ones that were "useless" or not effective/MP cost out weighed utility, more does not neccessarily mean better
+
all the number of abilities a blm can have from 8 other FFXI jobs (I restricted it to 8 instead of all the roster because FFXIV has 9 jobs only as of now)
find out the number of combinations you can get out of that and in XI early on if you subbed anything other than WHM/RDM/SMN on BLM you were doing it wrong, so we can cut that down to 3, and factor in what those actually gave to you, WHM gave you "some healing" about the same cross classing Physick does, RDM some enspells which no one used and "some healing", and SMN, auto refresh and a bigger mp pool... so in the end about what XIV gives natively to BLM if not less in a practical sense.





this is my math

now how about you show me your math on how FFXI has less please and support your claim.

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okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out, and is still ignoring the actual gameplay mechanics... your "math" is just simple addition and subtraction... when what's called for is algebra.

This thread gave me cancer. Thanks, OP.

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Originally Posted by SionDurant

Because then the Hardcores I know will just start complaining say that SE does nerf Atma RNG and makes it static style drops, they'll say "This is too easy, I should be the only one with Animus" or rather they'll say something else in different words but truly mean what I quoted.

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If you break this thread down, all it comes to is yet another one of your Atma threads. To the point you want to label and segregate 2 player types for your own purpose.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

okay now that we can look at your "math"... so here goes... hmm looks like your math doesn't check out.

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you claimed FFXI has LESS gameplay mechanics than FFXIV
then you asked me to show my math that adds up to FFXI has more which I did mathematically

but you are unwilling or rather unable to produce "math" that adds up to the contrary so you want conveniently to pick and choose what abilities to get included in the math and what abilities to not get included? :rolleyes:
that is very convenient indeed :rolleyes:

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game. Trying to argue based on your personal opinion which was actually used or what was useful to you is merely based on what you used and what the development team of FFXI used. The amount that they did not use does not change how deep their rabbit hole is mathematically, and that is why having it deep is good. Because then the developers can at any day get up and use whatever they didn't use before.

On the other hand if it was shallow then that it simply your limit of complexity and they have to resort to shuffling simpleton battle mechanics.


have a good day/nigh mam/sir. :)

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Originally Posted by DSX

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no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist. Potentially BLM in could be stated and geared to be a healer in XIV, but you'd be ineffective so no one does it...but the potential exists, there is a thread about tanky healers...it's a potential for WHM but it's not effectiveso....no one does it. This is the same math you're using...see why it doesn't add up.

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Originally Posted by DSX

If you reread what I have mentioned previously you would notice me saying how deep you make your rabbit hole is a measurement of how complex you can make your game.

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Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

no you just provided "math" that just showed you use the most basic of numbers XI had more skills (wether or not they were actually used was discarded) and the sub job system (which yet again was number crunched down to optimal setups) and ignored the crux of the matter...actual gameplay mechanics. again the rabbit hole GAMEPLAY wise for BLM was the elemental wheel, the magic burst system, and that's about it. you can't use POTENTIAL mechanics that were never used (and never existed) to buoy your arguement. if they weren't used then they effectively didn't exist.

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I was talking about math from the get go, you can see it through out my posts and everyone can see it too.
You challenged my "math" and I provided proof that it is correct.
You claimed FFXIV has more as opposed to my math of the contrary but failed to provide the "math" because you can't produce it.
If math is not your strong point please refrain from arguing about it.

magnitude of complexity is important to set in games like MMORPG because you are simply setting the foundation for years (or perhaps decades) to come of continuous production of new content for this game. It is wise to make your rabbit hole as deep as possible because you never know when you will need it to create things that you never did before. Lacking depth will always haunt you for any long term project because you only have a small number of ways you can utilize a shallow pool of gameplay mechanics and you will end up just shuffling simpleton mechanics over and over for your "new" content. You are as good as the rabbit hole you made in terms of gameplay mechanics variety, that's a fact. (Mathematically correct :rolleyes: )


Good day/night mam/sir :)

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Originally Posted by ReplicaX

Complexity can have a negative effect as well. You simply can't deny XI always struggled with balance issues.

All I'm going to add here as it goes off topic.

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That is true indeed. But that's the development team issue to resolve.

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Originally Posted by CYoung187

I just got dumber

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I can haz teh dum?

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Originally Posted by DSX

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again...your "math" discounts the actual mechanics in favor of just number values...

when taken as a whole XIV actually requires you to USE most if not all of your abilities, where as XI had you use maybe half of the bloated list they gave you on a shallow "Rock, Paper Scissors" system for its entire exisitence. Again you used basic arithmatic, when complex math is needed. if your "Potential Mechanics" are never used in 11+ years, then they effectively don't exist

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

again...your "math" discounts the actual mechanics in favor of just number values...

when taken as a whole XIV actually requires you to USE most if not all of your abilities, where as XI had you use maybe half of the bloated list they gave you on a shallow "Rock, Paper Scissors" system for its entire exisitence. Again you used basic arithmatic, when complex math is needed.

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Did you miss the parts about developers picking and choosing what to use as the game ages?
looking at that did you miss me indicating that the unused stuff is your ammunition for future content?
did you miss how large ffxi pool to begin with which is smart because it could last them decades and still produce genuinely new content with genuinely new gameplay mechanics because they have that unused pool?
did you not see me saying if the pool small you will exhaust the number of ways you can use your set and end up merely shuffling it for the "new" content?

do you realize that the magnitude of complexity for a single battle is also depending on how deep that rabbit hole you made because as a developer you can make it more complex by utilizing more of them?

do you realize that unused pool of abilities does not reduce the magnitude of complexity but rather indicate how much the developers choose to use and thus how simple they want it to be?

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Originally Posted by DSX

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and did you see that if for 11+ years they never use them, and just keep adding the same things that utilize the system that was in place since day one, then that "Potential" Doesn't exist. You're attempting to move the goal posts. over millions of years the half life of certain elements means they'll change to other ones, that doesn't mean I can use it as a retirement fund, I have to use the system as it exists in the here and now I can't hope that potentially it might pay off. The rabbit hole only goes as deep as what is actually there, and right now XIV's actual gameplay mechanics have more depth than the 'rock, paper, scissor's" of your continued only example of XI. Using your "math" what happens when the lvl cap rises, more cross class abilities can be taken, new skills are added... Your logic is based on everything staying static like XI did for 6+ years, the "potential" you keep bringing up exists as much here as in XI, and more so as the system here is not based on a rigid "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay foundation, the system in place now offers far more variables rather than having to find a use for things they added before that at the time were either useless or weren't needed, they can purpose build, rather than try to shoehorn a mechanic in. The variables in XI are at this point known, the only course there is to either fundamentally change the groundwork of the gameplay, or continuing to add content that makes use of what's already there

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

and did you see that if for 11+ years they never use them the that "Potential" Doesn't exist.

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Math says it exists so it does. Please if you will attempt to post facts make sure the math adds up first.

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

You're attempting to move the goal posts.

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Funny you say that. Because from the very start I made it clear in my posts that what I'm saying has nothing to do with FFXI itself and any game could replace it on the left hand side of that picture (provided it has a slimier magnitude of complexity) I even indicated that to you twice but you kept talking about FFXI and FFXI (I'm sorry if this game in particular has this profound impact on you that you can't go past it even if it wasn't the subject matter at hand). I indulged you about FFXI yet I' am the one being accused of moving the goal post by none other than you. Ironic :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Pandastirfry

The rabbit hole only goes as deep as what is actually there. Using your "math" what happens when the lvl cap rises, more cross class abilities can be taken, new skills are added... Your logic is based on everything staying static, the "potential" you keep bringing up exists as much here as in XI, and more so as the system here is not based on a rigid "Rock, Paper, Scissors" gameplay foundation, the system in place now offers far moore variables.

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No. as you can see in my math I restricted my calculation for comparative status and same number of cross-class/sub-job available to blm in both games (what you have in both game as of lvl50 and if the lvl cap changes then we compare on whatever that new cap is).

I mentioned earlier and I want to mention it again that people tend to remember what they like. Example, you mentioning MP management in FFXIV and forgetting how it was done in FFXI.

This is my last reply to you as I see your whole logic henge on what you conveniently pick and choose to your liking rather than on what a game can offer (based on the gameplay mechanics foundation it has) opposed to what portion of the game the developers throwing you.

Again good day/night mam/sir :)

I see that you keep editing your posts long after you posted them and I made my replies. I will not go in further that what I already stated.

I apologize to all who was discussing the OP (which I completely addressed in my earlier posts).

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Originally Posted by DSX

Math says it exists so it does. Please if you will attempt to post facts make sure the math adds up first. again your math is based purely on number values and not actual gameplay mechanics, effectively saying because XI had more skills it was more complex, even if the mechanics were based around a rigid gameplay foundation



Funny you say that. Because from the very start I made it clear in my posts that what I'm saying has nothing to do with FFXI itself and any game could replace it on the left hand side of that picture (provided it has a slimier magnitude of complexity) I even indicated that to you twice but you kept talking about FFXI and FFXI (I'm sorry if this game in particular has this profound impact on you that you can't go past it even if it wasn't the subject matter at hand). I indulged you about FFXI yet I' am the one being accused of moving the goal post by none other than you. Ironic :rolleyes: and I challenged you to come up with a game that supports your criteria and you have yet to do that so we have to work with what we have, which is XI



No. as you can see in my math I restricted my calculation for comparative status and same number of cross-class/sub-job available to blm in both games (what you have in both game as of lvl50 and if the lvl cap changes then we compare on whatever that new cap is).which yet again ignored actual gamplay in favor of pure "X has more so it must be more complex" even though the underlying mechanis don't support that supposition

I mentioned earlier and I want to mention it again that people tend to remember what they like. Example, you mentioning MP management in FFXIV and forgetting how it was done in FFXI. MP management in XI was, cast spells in a specific order, hope you have a brd or RDM in the party, sub SMN or use convert/ethers, XIV has those (barring /SMN and RDMs) and the Astral Fire/Umbral Ice mechanic

This is my last reply to you as I see your whole logic henge on what you conveniently pick and choose to your liking rather than on what a game can offer (based on the gameplay mechanics foundation it has) opposed to what portion of the game the developers throwing you. and the "gameplay" mechanic you keep saying is a foundation is purely Number of Skills, rather than how those skills are used, their effect in game, and a myriad of other topics worth getting into... Your argument seems to be "Gameplay=Size of the spell book" rather than "Gameplay=How those skills are used"

Again good day/night mam/sir :)

I see that you keep editing your posts long after you posted them and I made my replies. I will not go in further that what I already stated.

I apologize to all who was discussing the OP (which I completely addressed in my earlier posts)

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You keep repeating that your "math" wins, but you keep ignoring the actual crux, what mechanics did XI have (and actually used this "potential" nonsense needs to stop) and if you want to keep up with the "I'm not talking about XI" then provide a game that supports your hypothesis.