Any plans for Skillchains?

If they fix the battle regimens and skill chains in this game it could be a major selling point and possibly enjoyable goals in combat, in my opinion. I felt like these things were more important than auto-attack and some of the other changes they are working on now. I was severely disappointed when reading Matsui's battle blueprint that Regimens were left out for now. Iit's something the game is sorely lacking in now that could help bring it around.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

light and heavy attack can be mixed in any combo for def down, not just light+light and Heavy+Heavy. Also i try to always stack 3 incase one misses.

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the problem with that approach is that to get the most out of a BR you must have a new skill type in the 3rd position, for example WS => WS => Spell or Spell => Spell => WS. If you have WS => WS => WS => Spell, the spell is no longer 3rd and damage from it is not as good unless the first WS misses. But as far as the regular attacks you are correct, I didn't list all possible combos.

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Originally Posted by Eldaena

If they fix the battle regimens and skill chains in this game it could be a major selling point and possibly enjoyable goals in combat, in my opinion. I felt like these things were more important than auto-attack and some of the other changes they are working on now. I was severely disappointed when reading Matsui's battle blueprint that Regimens were left out for now. Iit's something the game is sorely lacking in now that could help bring it around.

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BRs are one of the things in game that work well. If they aren't working most of the time, you're doing it wrong. Try the combos I listed and tell me BRs are broke.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

The word "most" is what threw me off cause these are three little things and i wouldn't consider them "most" of the info about BR. The info on lodestone is enough to have any noob participating in BR. Also i challenge your 3rd point.

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Well those 3 little things (wich are four actually) are what makes the BR system amazing >.> That's what made me kill the roaming Buffalo in 7 minutes (pre nerf) so I guess they're quite important...
And what do you mean with "I challenge your 3rd point"? Don't you believe it? Go try yourself, there's also a graphical hint: every person outside BR that perform a skill in that window has glowing hands, check their damage and you'll see the difference.

BTW I don't get why do you have to bash on me, I just shared with people what I found out that SE didn't say, is it that bad? God, I'll just shut up the next time...

...I like battle regimens.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

the problem with that approach is that to get the most out of a BR you must have a new skill type in the 3rd position, for example WS => WS => Spell or Spell => Spell => WS. If you have WS => WS => WS => Spell, the spell is no longer 3rd and damage from it is not as good unless the first WS misses. But as far as the regular attacks you are correct, I didn't list all possible combos.

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no, i emant for def down. light+light+heavy or heavy+light+heavy, any combination. Only 2 of the three have to hit for def down.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

no, i emant for def down. light+light+heavy or heavy+light+heavy, any combination. Only 2 of the three have to hit for def down.

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but again, it's more effective if you use light => light => magic attack or even light => heavy => magic attack

The reason is that regular attacks are not very likely to miss and you get the added debuff of magic def down in addition to phys def down.

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Originally Posted by Alcide

Well those 3 little things (wich are four actually) are what makes the BR system amazing >.> That's what made me kill the roaming Buffalo in 7 minutes (pre nerf) so I guess they're quite important...
And what do you mean with "I challenge your 3rd point"? Don't you believe it? Go try yourself, there's also a graphical hint: every person outside BR that perform a skill in that window has glowing hands, check their damage and you'll see the difference.

BTW I don't get why do you have to bash on me, I just shared with people what I found out that SE didn't say, is it that bad? God, I'll just shut up the next time...

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Im not bashing on you, you said the main thing wrong with BR is that it is not explained. I simply said if you go to loadstone the info is there. Zam has an even more in depth explanation of it. Apparently we think of the word "most" in a different way which led me to believing that you had discovered ever aspect of BR single handily. Im sorry if you felt i was picking on you. If this were in person it would be a light hearted conversation and i wouldn't take anything too serious. Im sorry for taking your text to literal.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

but again, it's more effective if you use light => light => magic attack or even light => heavy => magic attack

The reason is that regular attacks are not very likely to miss and you get the added debuff of magic def down in addition to phys def down.

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but they do miss, Im not saying my way is the best or anything that's just what i do. If you hit all three you are not penalized for it and you can still go light+light+light+magic and get the added bonus. We were killing spitfire the other night over and over again and with only 2 of us doing the def down BR, we would get a miss here and there and have to do it again. Oh well, was just a tip, not trying to force my ideas on you.

with my ls we do br and do about 10k dmg in 1 br seriously isnt to hard . Now with that said only down fall to the BR is you can not do any action till its activated so if you dont know what your doing the party can die especially if you doing death BR .

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

but they do miss, Im not saying my way is the best or anything that's just what i do. If you hit all three you are not penalized for it and you can still go light+light+light+magic and get the added bonus. We were killing spitfire the other night over and over again and with only 2 of us doing the def down BR, we would get a miss here and there and have to do it again. Oh well, was just a tip, not trying to force my ideas on you.

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was somebody in the pt gimp or something? like someone with like 13 dex playing MRD or LNC? Last night when we were doing them we maybe missed two out of 30 or 40 tries.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

was somebody in the pt gimp or something? like someone with mage stats playing MRD or LNC? Last night when we were doing them we maybe missed two out of 30 or 40 tries.

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I dont know every ones stats, but we did go from doing rank 30 leves to rank 50 classes, so there was some class switching going on. We dont really go all out for low lvl nms, so who knows. Anyways, seems as though you have a way thats working for you so thats all that matters.

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Originally Posted by syntaxlies

I dont know every ones stats, but we did go from doing rank 30 leves to rank 50 classes, so there was some class switching going on. We dont really go all out for low lvl nms, so who knows. Anyways, seems as though you have a way thats working for you so thats all that matters.

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anyway, you should give the combo I listed earlier a try, the one w/ two separate BRs, it's amazing :)

I hope so. Battle Regimens have a whole host of problems.

I outlined the problems with the current system and potential short and long term fixes to the system for a more enjoyable, cooperation-oriented battle system here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...llChains2.0%29

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

actually, I think all WS work, the important thing is that you don't use two WS from the same class back to back or spells from the same class back to back. Other than that in my experience all WS work, some are just better than others.

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Aye, might be true havent been playing much lately. but well for mages in general it plain sucks, i like to duo / solo alot (now taking solo out of the equation) but in duo-mode it's almost patehticly useless trying to skill-chain using THM & CON, their limited options even at max level is plain crap.

There's no mana burn (wich imo should be there since...well..lol we are mages, we no melee's)

For mages id like to see more planned debuffs SC's, like: (just examples)
Bind + Bio = ????
Paralyze + Blind = Prolonged stunned
Gravity + Burn = Major dot, possible to kite a mob maybe. (since the current gravity is plain crap)

But ya in longer fights, boss fights i totally agree that BR is good (its more or less a planned SC in the first place) its just that its time more precisly. (wich is defenitly cool) but it lacks variety and options.

(but then again im sure it would have evloved more if the old team was still here.)

Recent changes in dev team has put alot of things on hold, BR is just one of those things.

However, i like debating new options, new ideas & hope for the best & let the Dev team read and debate
for themselves on how they like to implement this.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

I hope so. Battle Regimens have a whole host of problems.

I outlined the problems with the current system and potential short and long term fixes to the system for a more enjoyable, cooperation-oriented battle system here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...llChains2.0%29

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let me address some of your complaints

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Battle Regimens were intended as an easier and newbie-friendly alternative to skill chains, but in reality, they turn out to be just the opposite.

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This isn't true for the reasons I posted earlier, there is less emphasis on skill order (although it is still essential for a successfull BR) and less emphasis on timing. Both make BRs far more easy to pull off with regularity.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

If you take too long stacking a Battle Regimen, your DPS suffers, making the usage of Battle Regimens detrimental to your overall battle performance.

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Practice make perfect. There is no reason that party members should be standing around waiting to start a BR for more than a few seconds. Good communication helps.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Battle Regimens do more damage the more players are in a party. Therefore, in a small party of 2-4 players, it is usually better to not use Battle Regimens at all.

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parties as a whole do more damage with more members. it doesn't make BRs useless in a party of 4 or even 3.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

There is no structure to the Battle Regimens, and the order of stacked skills doesn't matter at all.

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if you believe this, your not doing them correctly

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

The difficulty in BRs arises not from complex strategy, but rather from the cumbersome nature of putting them together.

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there are visual cues all over the place, pay attention and communicate, and this shouldn't be an issue.


why you say skillchains are better

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

As long as there is at least one player in the party who knows how to skill chain properly, you can do it quickly and easily.

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the same can be said for BRs

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

The newbie gets to do whatever he wants, and the veteran uses his skills to combo the newbie's weaponskills automatically.

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this isn't true, there were tons of combination in XI that did nothing at all

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

There's enough time to have a skill chain order that matters.

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? skill order matters in BRs too

Wait what? o_O BR doesnt have much problem except that is a bit slow on our player side to do so, a coordinate party are able to inflict BR in a swift moments, and is pretty cool actually to use BR as the attack bonus climbs up to a person able to deal up to 2.4k-2.8k damage

If Battle Regimens has stylish effects when the debuff was applied to the mob... would they be Skill chains then?

I think the fact that the people who are outspokenly in favor of the BR system are having such a heated debate about how they even work speaks volumes for the state of BRs in the game.

The debate that should be going on is what can they do to the BR system to make it more accessible to everyone. Right now they are needlessly complicated, awkward to use, difficult to even learn how to use, and clearly not everyone has a good idea of how they even work. (even the people who are in favor of the system.)

Whether you can find merit in the system at this point is not a valid argument. And until they can be used by everyone with a clear understanding of what is required to make them work, and until we can learn to use them in an intuitive manner the system is bad.

Not because the effects aren't worth using, but because the system as a whole is largely inaccessible to the community.

I don't think that anyone is demanding they switch it for ffxi's skill chain system verbatim. But they could just as easily add something that works in close to the same way, but gives similar effects to what the BRs do now. Or they could look into completely different alternatives...

But in the Blueprint for battle reform they stated that they didn't write up any plans for the BR system because they think they will have to scrap the system entirely to implement something similar that is more accessible.

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Battle Regimens
We are afraid to inform you that work on the Battle Regimen system has been postponed, as adjustments and additions alone will not suffice to address problems. There is a need to rework the system from the ground up, and we will lay the foundation stones after other changes have been seen to completion.

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So for those in favor of BRs, instead of calling the rest of us idiots because we haven't experienced the need to learn how to use BRs... maybe you should start brainstorming about ideas that can keep what you like about BRs but make it more accessible to the community as a whole.

The current BR system is completely useless.

Granted the mob does receive stat debuffs if you invest the time in trying to execute one and you pick the right moves to use you will debuff your mob and or do more damage. Great. BUT, the time and effort isn't even worth it.
The mobs don't even last that long for you to even have a decent fight. They are either zerged down by your party within seconds and or zerged down yourself solo within seconds because of your TP spam. BR will only prolong your fight to maybe see some stat effect take affect and then die shortly after.

BR also needs flashier animations! We need to be visually satisfied just like we were the Skill Chains. We need to see some bad ass animations be manifested out of using WS -> WS -> BOOM {{insert epic animation here}} *mob now is paralyed*

BR should not have to be queued. Why spend 30 seconds queuing up BR to have the same result as if you did not have to wait

IE:
wait wait wait wait BR wait wait wait wait Skill wait wait wait wait Skill wait wait wait wait BRwait Execution -> Animation / Status Effect

or

Skill wait wait Skill -> Animation / Status Effect

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

I may be alone in this, but I actually like BRs. I like them more than skillchains for a couple reasons; less reliance on perfect timing which lets face it is extremely difficult to deal with when lag enters the equation, there are not 100s of combination you need to remember in order to do the right one for the mob you're fighting, and there are several very clear UI indicators that a BR is being started.

I realize that these things could be corrected with a different implementation, but that's just a direct comparison to skillchains in XI.

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Will agree the br system is far more flexible and potent then the sc system ever was. Hell i managed to do a regiment of ruin(i think) with a friend who was out goofing around on bot. (Stone throw -> Maim) Poor Gertrude didn't see the 2k Maim i dished out coming, Hell even i was surprised by it.

Now if they keep the same basic framework and allow auto attack to continue working along with adding in actual animations for the successful regiments it would be darn near perfect. Ya know the thing that really makes br's brutal and i mean bording on exessive force and treding into possible war crime territory is that even with out triggering a successful regiment (which like i said earlier is pretty hard not to do) you still gain the benefit of the progressive damage buff for the skills further down the line.

I'm not to sure on SC's since the way they've been handling it with FF11 (different team, but idc). They've been giving in to this anti-social behavior and just allowing people to self-SC more & more (not to mention they don't seem to care that LS's don't even need too many players anymore).

I just hope FF14 doesn't reach a point where DD's are standing back while 1-2 people are on the mob so it doesn't spam attacks.

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Originally Posted by Griss

Will agree the br system is far more flexible and potent then the sc system ever was. Hell i managed to do a regiment of ruin(i think) with a friend who was out goofing around on bot. (Stone throw -> Maim) Poor Gertrude didn't see the 2k Maim i dished out coming, Hell even i was surprised by it.

Now if they keep the same basic framework and allow auto attack to continue working along with adding in actual animations for the successful regiments it would be darn near perfect. Ya know the thing that really makes br's brutal and i mean bording on exessive force and treding into possible war crime territory is that even with out triggering a successful regiment (which like i said earlier is pretty hard not to do) you still gain the benefit of the progressive damage buff for the skills further down the line.

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You sir are wrong. BR being more flexible and less complicated than a SC? Watch these two videos and then tell me how you stand correct. It's extremely complicated, no normal or new player will ever be able to figure it out unless STUDIED and RESEARCHED let alone trying to execute it for the first time alone, let alone even understanding it. I "LOL" so hard due to the fact that there literally is a Guid or Instruction manual on how to execute a BR. Shouldn't that say a lot within itself? I discovered SC out accidentally by WSing a couple seconds after a party member WSed... how much more simple, easy, and efficient can you get? Later finding out that a SC can do 1/3 1/2 100%, 150% and or 200% of the secondly used WS.

FF11 Skill Chain System
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg43tGHVmDo

FF14 BR Sytem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfFDu10rds

Nothing could be easier than setting two or more of ANY attack into a separate queue and then launching 'em off not unlike a "fire & forget" heat seeking missile.

How do you teach it to a noob? You literally just say "Hit G or Square(I use the PS format for joypad buttons), then select ANY attack. Wait for someone else to queue up their own attack, then hit G again. Let mob rape begin. Lather, rinse, repeat.

Keep BRs, but give us more types and better visual effects.

Even tho i loved SC for 7 years, BR is new and unique, but it needs to be polished.
- Need to improve Visual,
- More Detrimental effects and as well as elemental debuff,
- Reverse the current bonus(BONUS should be given to the PLAYER who stacks BR FIRST), so tired of watching people wait for others to stack up so they can stack(their heavy trammel and other limited WSs) later and get bonus dmg.

I'll keep my thoughts very simple.

Use them all the time and have done so for months. Have zero problems coordinating their use amongst group runs. Still dislike them, find them bland and want them replaced.

I think the major difference between BR and SC that I miss is that SC was a constant variable in combat. And it could happen accidentally.

Two players could throw out weapon skills randomly and suddenly theres a skill chain. Hell I was playing in one party and completely accidentally we freaking popped a Light Skill chain. it wasn't planned, no one use any macros to identify the skills they were using. We just did it. And it was epic.

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Originally Posted by Molly_Millions

BRs are one of the things in game that work well. If they aren't working most of the time, you're doing it wrong. Try the combos I listed and tell me BRs are broke.

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I never said they were broken or anything. They do work and I use them. The problem is they're boring and rather uninspiring gamplay-wise. Like I've mentioned in other posts before, why can't we do things like in the opening video? If people are stacking things in a battle regimen, but all it's really doing is making all those attacks release at the same time with a small buff, it's kind of boring. Not to mention the mechanics themselves need changing. We shouldn't all be standing around waiting for everyone to stack, or on the other hand, stacking over and over, and releasing whenever there is 3+ attacks/skills stacked and then doing it again. I just have issues with the mechanics and the overall kind of boring design. I love the idea of people all working together on an attack, but it needs to be done better in my opinion. That's what I was getting at with my previous post.

i hated ffxi skill chains. They were tedious to set up. You had to have spesific weapon skills not just hand to hand ws or lance ws.
And depending on the persons weapon skill level, they might not even have the needed ws. There was also trying to skill chain around everyone else. People just gave up on them.
It either took to long to set up.
people weapon skilled during the set up skill chain
The tank lost hate causing the mob to move.
BR are more freer and with the que up can be easier to set up. Just need people to que up faster.

So it wasn't people didn't have skill to use them. It was just to much to work around everything. Skill chains only worked well in ls groups who were patient. Also skill chains in ffxi only caused elemental damge.

While br do debuffs to aid in various things. Do not hate on a system because you lack the patience in learning to be better at it. It takes time to be good in something.

I agree that BR is tedious to use, but does that justify to even scrap it instead of fixing it? Come on.. for me BR seems very good just need more ideas implant and adjustment needed.. maybe make a separate queues or something.

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Originally Posted by Cairdeas

I think the major difference between BR and SC that I miss is that SC was a constant variable in combat. And it could happen accidentally.

Two players could throw out weapon skills randomly and suddenly theres a skill chain. Hell I was playing in one party and completely accidentally we freaking popped a Light Skill chain. it wasn't planned, no one use any macros to identify the skills they were using. We just did it. And it was epic.

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Honestly I prefer a system that encourages tactics instead of randomness...

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Originally Posted by Jaide

I've used it quite a bit, and from what I understand there is a damage bonus applied to additional attacks added to the BR. It only really seems to be worth it if everyone is coordinated and the BR is joined up to and executed right away. Otherwise you stand around doing nothing, unable to even heal yourself, while you're waiting for everyone else to get in.

Oh yeah, and I prefer the skill chain system. I wish they'd implement that in this game.

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maybe BR will be better with auto attack. Having your toon continue to attack even when waiting for others to Que up their skill for BR.

I am hoping the "waiting" for people to que up will be a mute point with auto-attack. What do you do in XI when you are planning a weapon skill? sit there doing nothing with the macro ready to push. FFXIV just lets you que it up so you don't have to worry about it. Now if BR stops auto-attack...that's a different story.

skill chains would be awesome. even self made combos will rock that could chain up with someone else combo to form a skill chain. that would be epic! I want to see ground shacking, huge explosions and bang! please do this dev team. pretty please with a cherry on top.

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Originally Posted by Spuffin

You sir are wrong. BR being more flexible and less complicated than a SC? Watch these two videos and then tell me how you stand correct. It's extremely complicated, no normal or new player will ever be able to figure it out unless STUDIED and RESEARCHED let alone trying to execute it for the first time alone, let alone even understanding it. I "LOL" so hard due to the fact that there literally is a Guid or Instruction manual on how to execute a BR. Shouldn't that say a lot within itself? I discovered SC out accidentally by WSing a couple seconds after a party member WSed... how much more simple, easy, and efficient can you get? Later finding out that a SC can do 1/3 1/2 100%, 150% and or 200% of the secondly used WS.

FF11 Skill Chain System
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jg43tGHVmDo

FF14 BR Sytem
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=llfFDu10rds

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Hmm.. let me re-read my post, Yep i said jack all about complication and ease of use.

Then again how complicated is hitting shift+# and g? well heck its about as complicated as timing weapon skills and a spell cast to cause a sc+mb was.