Duty Finder for DD

I've been getting 5-10 min ques as drg and brd. So I'm not sure if its just your data center or what.

Dzemael Darkhold? What about the queue times for it?

From personal experience, queues for DD aren't that bad regardless of you being tank, heals, or dps.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

All MMO's are the same, Tanking is probably the most stressful role you can play and is also the first people will blame when something goes wrong.

On the other hand DPS is probably the easier role to play and has the least effect on the party unless you are facing end game content.

It's just as simple as the path of least resistance.

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Which is hilarious, because tanking 4man dungeons in this game is seriously the most braindead thing I have ever done. At least as a SCH I can pretend I'm a DPS while the tank shrugs off trash mobs' attacks...

Casual players are scared of the skill floor required for tanking and healing, and serious players are driven away from tanking and healing casual content because its still ceiling is stiflingly low. The only time I tank or heal any more is when those roles are called for in serious 8mans, where those roles are actually checked for more than 'has a pulse and can press button', or when my FC wants to do premade speedruns or introduce people to content without putting up with toxic gamer bro randoms making jokes about sexual assault.

SE has done all they can to make tanks more attractive to play but just like every other game out there, people just enjoy DDs more. The only way to make queues shorter is to make DDs less pleasing to play but is that really the road you want to head to?

To the above guy, stop using casual player as a term like they are noob. Casual players aren't bad players. Contrary to popular belief, Playing casually doesn't make you a bad player but being unable to see your faults and improve upon yourself makes you a bad player. The difference between casual and hardcore is the amount of time they spend playing the game and not a gauge of skill level.

Relating back to the actual topic, tanks is still the harder class to play compared to dpsing even in 4-man content. This is because tanks usually have to manage multiple things whereas dps usually don't. If you find tanking brain dead then obviously you enjoy doing damage or healing more. But to say tanking is brain dead is a personal preference and not a fact since the same can be said for dps and healing (e.g dps just hit the same rotation over and over again on the same mob, healing just cause cure/physick repetitively).

Regardless, the community in general just prefer to be doing damage over taking damage and keeping the party alive etc.

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Originally Posted by Krr

Which is hilarious, because tanking 4man dungeons in this game is seriously the most braindead thing I have ever done. At least as a SCH I can pretend I'm a DPS while the tank shrugs off trash mobs' attacks...

Casual players are scared of the skill floor required for tanking and healing, and serious players are driven away from tanking and healing casual content because its still ceiling is stiflingly low. The only time I tank or heal any more is when those roles are called for in serious 8mans, where those roles are actually checked for more than 'has a pulse and can press button', or when my FC wants to do premade speedruns or introduce people to content without putting up with toxic gamer bro randoms making jokes about sexual assault.

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Games are generally easy because are meant to relax, not to be a job. Moreover online games are meant to grant social experience, which makes them even easier.
Whenever i want a game where i can think about strategy and tactics - i would play an RTS game where i have to fight against AI (which adapts to counter my strenghs and strike at weaknesses).
FFXIV has 3 types of enmity management: target with highest enmity, closest target and randon target. A good AI system would analyze the team composition and health and attack the target to hurt at most (healer revived with low hp - ffs, tanker doing low damage - ignore, dps has generally low hp - ffs), team standing close - use aoe, and etc. This would remove the repetition element and force everyone to start thinking what they are doing and what can happen.

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Originally Posted by Lafiele

To the above guy, stop using casual player as a term like they are noob.

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Quoted for context; Snipped for character count.

I'm sorry if my nomenclature for playstyles offended you! Please understand, I used casual player to define a mindset preferring relaxation rather than adversity in the game.

Tanking is executionally easier. This is a fact. Tank threat rotations are 6-8 buttons long (even less for PLDs,) and managing AOE is done with a 2-3 button long AOE rotation. Positional awareness is required so the tank doesn't die. DPS rotations are 10-16 buttons long. Positional awareness is required so that the DPS doesn't die.

These factors combined drive the majority of both serious players who want a high execution job and casual players who want a low stress job away from tanking and healing. It is a flaw in the game's job and encounter design, not the mindsets of either side of the player base.

Also, I am not a guy.

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Originally Posted by Lafiele

SE has done all they can to make tanks more attractive to play but just like every other game out there, people just enjoy DDs more. The only way to make queues shorter is to make DDs less pleasing to play but is that really the road you want to head to?

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This very much. If i have a choice between playing my Paladin and Monk, i would go with my monk but sadly tank queue time is so much more better and i ended up gearing my Paladin a lot more. Yea managing your defensive buffs to prevent getting hit by burst damages from boss, watching for adds, skills to interrupt, dodging abilities, watching the threats i would say it is alot more stressful than monk who just dodge stuffs, do your rotation properly, pop cooldowns when needed. I am the lazy type, i always queue as a dps in most PF for pugs unless the PF only got tank spots left.

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Tanking is executionally easier. This is a fact. Tank threat rotations are 6-8 buttons long (even less for PLDs,) and managing AOE is done with a 2-3 button long AOE rotation. Positional awareness is required so the tank doesn't die. DPS rotations are 10-16 buttons long. Positional awareness is required so that the DPS doesn't die.

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Rotations's length in my opinion don't matter a lot in execution because once you do the rotation long enough, you sort of go into this automatic mode where you know how to execute it by heart, in fact a few times when i have to offtank as my pally i found myself maneuvering and pressing rotations buttons from my monk by mistakes, like moving to the flank when i am going to press 3 which is twin snake for my MNK and riot blade for my Paladin even through riot blade don't have any positional requirements to deal their full damage potency. Sure dps got a lot of rotation and damage buffs to juggle, but it is the DD's own buff they have to juggle, but when it comes to tanks, it is trying to manage the damage by using your cooldowns correctly, some boss's high damaging move could be predictable and even then the pattern probably change every phrase while some are just depending on the RNG.

I'm thinking something very similar to what GW2 devs have decided for their game: they removed, in fact, healer class in such way, they have supplied healing capabilities to every job, so every job can put in hotbar healing skill and be the healer of the group.
In this game I would remove the tank class, giving DPS and TANK abilities to all melee classes (war,monk,drg,pld) or even to whole actual classes. In such way, the queue problem will be solved.

I have always thought that 6 man content would have fit the game population better. Parties would consist of: 1 tank, 1 healer, and 4 dps. To me, this seems to be about the same ratio people choose to play the roles.

I think 4 man parties seemed like a good idea for a game that doesn't have a party matching system. Finding 6 people for simple exp parties in FFxi proved time consuming; from that perspective 4 people would have been faster to find. This game has the "Duty Finder" and "Party Finder" though, so I don't see the benefit of smaller parties other than they are easier to create content for.

To sum it up as saying it's our own fault (the player base) because too many people choose dps jobs is naïve. The fact of the matter is: they (SE) could have looked at data from FFxi (their own) and other games to predict with a fair amount of accuracy how the population would choose to play.

This distribution 4:1:1 is just the way it is; there isn't any way to make someone who prefers dps magically prefer tank or healer. The roles are entirely different experiences, and some play for a particular experience (i.e. beating things up). Things like mounts, tiny bit extra gil, etc., will not change this.

I myself play all 3 roles, depending on my mood. I know before I choose to duty up as BLM, SMN, or BRD I better plan on crafting for a while or do something else to pass time until it finds me a party.

Bottom line is: a game built around 6 man content would have avoided this problem. Instead we have to deal with high queue times as a dps.

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Originally Posted by MurakumoMillennium

Dzemael Darkhold? What about the queue times for it?

From personal experience, queues for DD aren't that bad regardless of you being tank, heals, or dps.

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Not sure if serious, but in case you are:

DD = Damage Dealer/Direct Damage (depending on who you speak to).

It's a pretty well known abbreviation in MMOs. It was one of the terms used in MMOs in the earlier days. Originally, DPS was a type of DD that maintained low, constant damage, as opposed to spikers or nukers that dealt widely spaced, heavy hits. Think MNK vs DRG or BRD vs BLM. DPS gradually became the preferred term in WoW for all DD and so became the more used term in MMOs in general.

DD isn't particularly obscure though, unless you haven't played anything before the more recent MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Steffie

Sure dps got a lot of rotation and damage buffs to juggle, but it is the DD's own buff they have to juggle, but when it comes to tanks, it is trying to manage the damage by using your cooldowns correctly, some boss's high damaging move could be predictable and even then the pattern probably change every phrase while some are just depending on the RNG.

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Agreed, for every 8-man encounter starting at and beyond Ultima HM. Cooldown management is what separates good tanks from bad tanks.

Rotating cooldowns on 4mans, on the other hand, is like using an ocean to put out a campfire. The content is tuned such that even tanks as low as i70 will shrug off pretty much every attack without even noticing it. I say this from both the tank end and the healer end. It's a way to be a bit showy at best, and a waste of critical emergency resources (that'll probably never come up, natch,) at worst.

just out of curiosity... the majority of people (from my experience) that complain about long queue times are on the bigger servers... does that have anything to do with it?

the solution is fate grinding dps to 50 :)

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Originally Posted by Lord_Zlatan

just out of curiosity... the majority of people (from my experience) that complain about long queue times are on the bigger servers... does that have anything to do with it?

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I'm on Balmung, which I believe is in the top three. I never get queues of more than 5-10 mins for current content (the new HM dungeons, Ex Primals etc) on any job. Less popular content can take longer, but that's regardless of which role I enter as.

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Originally Posted by Aegis

I'm on Balmung, which I believe is in the top three. I never get queues of more than 5-10 mins for current content (the new HM dungeons, Ex Primals etc) on any job. Less popular content can take longer, but that's regardless of which role I enter as.

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but i thought duty finder is cross server, how can one servers population influence duty time ?

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Originally Posted by Noshpan

It's weird that it's always felt the opposite for me. Whenever I am on my Dragoon I am waiting for an hour or more for the DF but if I switch to, say, my Puglist or Black Mage I'm usually waiting for double what the timer says (example: timer says 8 minutes, I'm waiting about 16 minutes). Maybe the DF just hates Dragoons (like everybody else).

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I believe in the census they released last year, drg was more popular than mnk which is why you may be experiencing longer queue times on drg. I don't; I get in on drg within 15 minutes any time I queue up.

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Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze

but i thought duty finder is cross server, how can one servers population influence duty time ?

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It is cross server. Server populations have nothing to do with queue times.

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Originally Posted by AmnesiaHaze

but i thought duty finder is cross server, how can one servers population influence duty time ?

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It's cross server, but only within your server group. DF won't match you with people from another server group.

The community needs to stop with the knee jerk response of "roll a tank." If you say that to someone who has WAR and PLD at 50, it makes you look foolish; they are leveling a DPS class because they have already maxed their tanks. At least consider that possibility. If they don't have tanks maxed, sure, rolling a tank is an option, but then what do they do when they max tank and only have DPS classes to level? Regardless of what role someone starts with, they will eventually run into the wait time issue unless they just level tank and never do anything else. Running dungeons as a tank may make it easier to gear up other jobs, but it is not possible to level other jobs while you're playing as a tank.

I really don't think there's a good solution to this. But in the meantime, when I queue as DPS, I do Fates or mining/botany/fishing while I wait.

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Originally Posted by SekiShiki

I'm thinking something very similar to what GW2 devs have decided for their game: they removed, in fact, healer class in such way, they have supplied healing capabilities to every job, so every job can put in hotbar healing skill and be the healer of the group.
In this game I would remove the tank class, giving DPS and TANK abilities to all melee classes (war,monk,drg,pld) or even to whole actual classes. In such way, the queue problem will be solved.

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please don't. gw2 was pretty fun for a while and the concept was nice but the no trinity made the game gg2easy and very boring. i like to be dependent on.
it was just weird to me, but applaud them for steppin out the box, i just HATED it in dungeons. >_<

the problem lies in: tanks are usually boring, with boring skills and ppl like...pizzaz! also, ppl simply just like to do damage more.
as lafiele said, se did all the could to boost up tank love.


my 2 solutions: I: i think we need to add more tanks in game for variety.
ppl talk about XI's ninja...so add that next or any thing thats be a tank. c:

II: 5 man runs. these 4 man runs arent cutting it. adding an extra will relieve que times. i feel like tanking problems had gotten better thanks
to roulette, when i 1st started i waited 30mins for ifrit as a thm in 2.0.

has anyone just thought the reasoning behind no one want to tank coz they just do not want to?
its not ones fault for choosing the class they prefer. dont blame other for not being a tank, they do not want to. i love to heal so i'm lucky
but just coz someone doesnt wanna tank coz it's not their style or just stressful or boring. :/

I wonder how viable a class rather than job 4-man group would be. Perhaps add a Class Roulette wherein it is 2 DoM and 2 DoW with some sort of additional bonus above the regular roulettes? maybe 130 myth and 75 sold? You would probably have to make sure that everyone has at least one spammable heal ability though.. something akin to requiring the heal skill on GW2's bar?
Of course, you wouldn't get your job skills and there would be no sch or smn, but it would at least add some variety in the game. And perhaps, it would actually make Topaz Carbuncle find a use?


The thought above being that everyone bring at least one heal skill and one hate skill (making provoke and/or flash equippable by all classes). This way, if you end up with say 2 Archers and 2 Conjurers then you can rotate tanking and everyone can contribute to healing. Survivability is higher too, because conjurers would have access to cross class skills like sentinel. Hell, it would be fun.

I dunno. Just thinking of ways to make the trinity less important in simple 4 man dungeons with the added benefit of utilizing the class system.

EDIT: looks like SekiShiki and I had similar lines of thought.

Why not introduce a new tanking class and job rather than introducing more dps? I'm looking at you musketeer and ninja guilds >.>

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Originally Posted by UBERHAXED

Hmm.. 5 dps roles 2 tanks, 2 healers
3 man parties: 2 dps, 1 healer -> healer shortage, ratio is 5:2
7 man parties: 4 dps, 1 tank, 2 healers -> healer shortage, ratio is 1:1 for H:T, 2:5 for H:DPS; secondarily DPS shortage ratio is 5:2 for DPS:T

Not sure where you learned your math.

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It was a joke. You can't remove a tank when we only have 1 in a 4 man party. I meant it as a worthless suggestion like "So play a tank" is. Sorry it didn't come off as sarcastic.

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Originally Posted by Lemon8or

Game is lacking tank. If they give the DD bonuses tank gets as well, guess what, it'll take even longer to get a run in.

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the game isnt lacking tanks i would say. People just dont like to play as tanks as much (flaming dps especially towards new players/new tanks doenst relaly help here).
But the biggest problem is the party size.

The 4 man content is just a bad design.
5-6 man content as smaller parties would make it far better. since you still had only 1 tank 1 healer but 3-4 dps instead of just 2.

I really have no clue why they were going this way creating content.

Yet in situatinos like CT... you have too many tanks

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Originally Posted by Kiyouma

Why not introduce a new tanking class and job rather than introducing more dps? I'm looking at you musketeer and ninja guilds >.>

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Let's explore how this would work! Let's take a sample size of 100 players. 10 of them like tanking, and are divided 5 and 5 on WAR and PLD. 10 like healing and are divided 5 and 5 on WHM and SCH. 80 like DD, and are divided 16 each on BLM, SMN, BRD, MNK, and DRG. This leaves us only 10 each of healers and tanks to service 80 DDs - Duty finder sucks for DDs!

We add three new DD jobs and EIGHT new tanking jobs! Surely this will solve the problem!

...Except, we still only have 10 folks interested in tanking. The there is now one each one WAR, PLD, newtank1, newtank2, newtank3, newtank4, newtank5, newtank6, newtank7, and newtank8. The 10 healers are still on WHM and SCH. The DDs have redistributed to 10 each on BLM, SMN, BRD, MNK, DRG, newDD1, newDD2, and newDD3. 10 tanks and healers for 80 DDs. Nothing has changed with the addition of new tanking jobs.

The only way to ease the stress on DD Duty Finder wait times is to get more folks interested in tanking, to actually enjoy the aspects that lots of players find intimidating (leading the run, wrangling stray mobs, high visability as to whether you're sucking at your job or not) or boring (comparatively low DD output, a limit break that's rarely useful).

No, introducing new jobs won't solve the problem. Perhaps a more radical solution, though, might be to allow the duty finder to create non-standard parties in situations where DDs need to wait for ten minutes or more, and then adjust the content so that those groups are viable. Say you wind up in an instance with four DDs, no healer, no tank. Scale mob damage and/or hp down enough that the DDs can reasonably solo mobs in singles or pairs; perhaps also add "healing springs" along the way with a limited number of uses so that DDs can recharge quickly during or after fights.

Heck, in a lot of cases, the mobs might not even need much scaling down; mob packs rarely come in sets of more than three or four; with two DDs holding a mob and the other two ganging up on the third, I could see it still being doable. Speed runs would probably be off the table, but since we're already saving a half hour or more of waiting-for-DF, I don't think there'll be too much complaining on that count. :P The bosses would require a bit more fine-tuning, though, especially accounting for the lack of a healer...

SE priority should be to release a Tank Class (Dark Knight) or w/e. instead of this rumor this class. than again odds are the current Tank player base will just roll the new class lol.

Personally I don't think any suggestions will fix this issue, it's been a problem in every mmorpg I've ever played and it's simply because DPS is easier to play and more desirable to most people (people love to kill shit). Tanks and Healers have more responsibility in the long run and therefore become less desirable because people have to focus more and can't afk as much. To me it's that simple and no amount of changes will ever fix the issue, sure some might improve the situation but only marginally at best. I've played lots of games with the 1/1/3 configurations that still have a 20+ minute que time for DPS.

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Originally Posted by Anty

the game isnt lacking tanks i would say. People just dont like to play as tanks as much (flaming dps especially towards new players/new tanks doenst relaly help here).
But the biggest problem is the party size.

The 4 man content is just a bad design.
5-6 man content as smaller parties would make it far better. since you still had only 1 tank 1 healer but 3-4 dps instead of just 2.

I really have no clue why they were going this way creating content.

Yet in situatinos like CT... you have too many tanks

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well, if you remember FF1-6 they all had 4 person parties

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Originally Posted by Anty

the game isnt lacking tanks i would say. People just dont like to play as tanks as much (flaming dps especially towards new players/new tanks doenst relaly help here).
But the biggest problem is the party size.

The 4 man content is just a bad design.
5-6 man content as smaller parties would make it far better. since you still had only 1 tank 1 healer but 3-4 dps instead of just 2.

I really have no clue why they were going this way creating content.

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Definitely this. I think they went with four with the idea of keeping it small for people making their own groups. But the duty finder took out, or at least minimized that aspect and they rolled with it anyway. Five or six man dungeons are definitely something they should consider for the future.

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well, if you remember FF1-6 they all had 4 person parties

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Four didn't. /nitpick

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Originally Posted by ValkyrieL

SE priority should be to release a Tank Class (Dark Knight) or w/e. instead of this rumor this class. than again odds are the current Tank player base will just roll the new class lol.

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Petty much, I don't' think its a lack of choice its just people don't want to deal with the hassle of Tanking and Healing.

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Originally Posted by Jinko

Petty much, I don't' think its a lack of choice its just people don't want to deal with the hassle of Tanking and Healing.

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the queue time is the DPS paying the 'asshole tax' their cohorts have made neccissary.

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Originally Posted by LineageRazor

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Except people will switch if new tank classes/jobs are "interesting" enough (subjective to each player). If you enjoy a job's unique mechanics enough, you'll be willing to play it regardless. I'm currently leveling both PLD and WAR. I absolutely hate playing WAR. Does that mean I hate tanking? No (well, ok, just a little), it just means I hate WAR. I like PLD far more than I do WAR and so I'm willing to put up with some of the annoyances that come with playing it. And since I know someone is going to counter with this, this may be anecdotal evidence but it holds about as much weight as your pure speculations do.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Except people will switch if new tank classes/jobs are "interesting" enough (subjective to each player). If you enjoy a job's unique mechanics enough, you'll be willing to play it regardless. I'm currently leveling both PLD and WAR. I absolutely hate playing WAR. Does that mean I hate tanking? No (well, ok, just a little), it just means I hate WAR. I like PLD far more than I do WAR and so I'm willing to put up with some of the annoyances that come with playing it. And since I know someone is going to counter with this, this may be anecdotal evidence but it holds about as much weight as your pure speculations do.

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That's not exactly true. The majority of people don't fulfill the tank role because of the responsibility it has. The role being fun or not is a very uncommon reason, at least so far as to be the primary reason not to take up the role. You actually have to pay some attention to do it well. I love playing as my PLD, but I refuse to use it in any endgame dungeons with randoms. The interesting portion would sway some, but I'd actually be willing to bet it would still have a result of low tank numbers.

Too many blackmages

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

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Majority, yes, but the fact remains that there are some people who don't tank because they find both tank jobs boring. If you play any sort of MOBA, you can observe this phenomenon. For example, in League of Legends, support is the garbage role most people don't want anything to do with. Riot released a character (Thresh, if you do play it) that was considered "fun" by many and the number of supports went up. It's still the least played role, but there are more people willing to play it because of that one character.

I wish SE would of made it so roulette's counted for the tank mount achievement.

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Originally Posted by Lyrinn

Majority, yes, but the fact remains that there are some people who don't tank because they find both tank jobs boring. If you play any sort of MOBA, you can observe this phenomenon. For example, in League of Legends, support is the garbage role most people don't want anything to do with. Riot released a character (Thresh, if you do play it) that was considered "fun" by many and the number of supports went up. It's still the least played role, but there are more people willing to play it because of that one character.

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Don't get me wrong, I mean I agree that numbers for tank roles in the DF would go up a tad if there were some extra stuff thrown in to make it more interesting (though I lack insight as to how to do that properly). But it doesn't change the responsibility aspect of the role. Being support, for example, is not popular because you don't visually see yourself making things easier/better or see high numbers. But you also don't need to fear the responsibility aspect of it all.

I'll take FFXI support jobs as an example on that. I used to play as a BRD in XI, and absolutely loved the job. They were very rare for a long time, particularly good ones, but the impact they had on groups was ridiculously helpful. You (the BRD) hit like you're swinging pillows, but your songs buff the group enough to make everyone seem like they're gods (exaggeration). You work, essentially, behind the scenes. No truly noticeable responsibilities, despite how big of an impact you can have.

I think we're both on the same page here, just expressing our own outlook on the matter. :)