When is enough really enough ???? [DEV]

Gear swapping is not going to ruin the game ever. Get over yourself and your XI ways

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

ok i'll give a few

1. the armory system. no, it was not great at release by any stretch. i don't think you will find anyone that will argue there should have been more class specific abilities, but for the core of the system to build your own character many people really liked.

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The armory system has been criticized up and down because it creates homogeneous, boring classes. It was one of the top complaints about this game. It's also what's holding back the game NOW, because we're going to have jobs tied to weapons, archers with no melee weapons, etc. Not a good feature at all.

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2. the leve system. yes, it is now, but should not have ever been the main way of progression in the game. quite frankly it is the only time you can get people to party at this point though. the reason is if more than one group winds up in an area trying to grind is the sp is severely affected.

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Also not a good system. Leves are boring and exploited to hell because it's more rewarding to fail a leve than it is to complete one. Let's not forget the exploits with healing during leves that was present in the game's first few weeks. Don't think I've read a single review that praised the leve system.

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3. the class quests. yes, i know the quests in this game were horrible and should have been vastly improved. i did still enjoy the little lore behind each class we did. they were extremely boring and need to be mostly just be redone. the only one i have really enjoyed was the r36 blacksmith quest and that one only because of the cut scene.

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You just backed out on your point with the first sentence. They're horrible, they're boring, they don't happen often enough. The little quest content that this game shipped with was awful.

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4. the fact that they tried to make the game to bring in a more diverse crowd. this failed dramatically though because you cannot make one game that caters to everyone. there needed to be different things for the different playstyles to enjoy.

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That's not a redeeming feature, especially if it failed. Every game tries to appeal to a larger crowd.

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5. they went away from the 24hr-1week spawn times on nm's. it made it easier for people with less camping time to enjoy doing the higher level mobs.

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Game didn't ship with NMs. But I'll throw Tanaka a bone, because these were implemented under his supervision.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

The armory system has been criticized up and down because it creates homogeneous, boring classes. It was one of the top complaints about this game. It's also what's holding back the game NOW, because we're going to have jobs tied to weapons, archers with no melee weapons, etc. Not a good feature at all.

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i never said it was perfect at all. do you think it will be easier to make a cookie cutter class in this game where you can level all classes over when you had one class and a sub-job? to me this was a step forward. you are right about the changing weapons though. i completely agree i do not like the not being able to change weapons, but that was something that could have been changed inside of the system without removing it.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Also not a good system. Leves are boring and exploited to hell because it's more rewarding to fail a leve than it is to complete one. Let's not forget the exploits with healing during leves that was present in the game's first few weeks. Don't think I've read a single review that praised the leve system.

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can you name me any mmo that does not have a go kill x amount of enemy quest? i already stated it should have never been the only content to do as a group or the most efficient way of leveling. if there was more stuff to do content wise you would not have the same parties grouping every 36 hours for them because they would have other things they wanted to do.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

You just backed out on your point with the first sentence. They're horrible, they're boring, they don't happen often enough. The little quest content that this game shipped with was awful.

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i agree it was very lacking. i never denied that. all i was saying is that it could have been drastically improved upon to become much better. to me they should have happened more often and had more to them, but that doesn't change the fact they were there and could have been improved upon.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

That's not a redeeming feature, especially if it failed. Every game tries to appeal to a larger crowd.

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it got alot of people that would have not gotten the game to give it a try. that is a redeeming feature. the fact that they did a horrible job of it, however, was not.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Game didn't ship with NMs. But I'll throw Tanaka a bone, because these were implemented under his supervision.

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tanaka added these to give the high level characters something halfway challenging to do. it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

Lol all he did is write a failed area of the game then try to justify it.


I agree though that the armory system is a solid concept that was poorly implemented. There was no strategy or synergy between abilities. You essentially have to level up as many jobs as possible so their good abilities become available for 3 AP each.

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it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

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They were supereasy before to any group of decent players. Too bad for you.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

i never said it was perfect at all. do you think it will be easier to make a cookie cutter class in this game where you can level all classes over when you had one class and a sub-job? to me this was a step forward. you are right about the changing weapons though. i completely agree i do not like the not being able to change weapons, but that was something that could have been changed inside of the system without removing it.

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I never implied that you said it was perfect. I said it wasn't good. And it wasn't. There's already cookie cutter builds popping up, by picking out the best damage dealing abilities from other DOW classes (or THM hands down beating CON as a support mage). Cookie cutter builds are unavoidable. But that has nothing to do with how homogeneous and BORING the classes are. They all play identically and it can't be fixed as long as they insist on keeping the armory system. But that's another argument for another topic.

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can you name me any mmo that does not have a go kill x amount of enemy quest? i already stated it should have never been the only content to do as a group or the most efficient way of leveling. if there was more stuff to do content wise you would not have the same parties grouping every 36 hours for them because they would have other things they wanted to do.

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Name another MMO whose core of leveling came with 8 repeatable quests/36 hours, which offered paltry amounts of lore and equally paltry variance in the kinds of mobs or mob abilities that you faced. How about an MMO where it's better to FAIL your quests and keep re-trying it because it gives you an edge? How about one where EVERY repeatable quest followed the exact same formula ("Kill/gather X amount of monster/item, in a 30 minute time limit")? Yeah, other MMOs have similar "Kill X monsters in Y area". But that's where the similarities end, and unfortunately, leves never go beyond just that formula.

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i agree it was very lacking. i never denied that. all i was saying is that it could have been drastically improved upon to become much better. to me they should have happened more often and had more to them, but that doesn't change the fact they were there and could have been improved upon.

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"What could have been" is not a feature.

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it got alot of people that would have not gotten the game to give it a try. that is a redeeming feature. the fact that they did a horrible job of it, however, was not.

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This game shipped 600,000 units, and its population peaked at around 80k or 90k. It was being sold for half off within a month of release. It's not a redeeming feature at all, because it FAILED.

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tanaka added these to give the high level characters something halfway challenging to do. it was directly followed by yoshi nerfing them and making them super easy.

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They weren't easy before? You know, with THM tanking them and maybe even soloing them?

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

I never implied that you said it was perfect. I said it wasn't good. And it wasn't. There's already cookie cutter builds popping up, by picking out the best damage dealing abilities from other DOW classes (or THM hands down beating CON as a support mage). Cookie cutter builds are unavoidable. But that has nothing to do with how homogeneous and BORING the classes are. They all play identically and it can't be fixed as long as they insist on keeping the armory system. But that's another argument for another topic.

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yeah i know that gladiator and that conjurer play completely the same and they are exactly no different than an archer...

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Name another MMO whose core of leveling came with 8 repeatable quests/36 hours, which offered paltry amounts of lore and equally paltry variance in the kinds of mobs or mob abilities that you faced. How about an MMO where it's better to FAIL your quests and keep re-trying it because it gives you an edge? How about one where EVERY repeatable quest followed the exact same formula ("Kill/gather X amount of monster/item, in a 30 minute time limit")? Yeah, other MMOs have similar "Kill X monsters in Y area". But that's where the similarities end, and unfortunately, leves never go beyond just that formula.

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and didn't i say with more different kinds of things to do it would have been different. you knock something because it was the only thing released so it became boring. i feel they were meant as nothing more than a quick thing for casuals to do or people getting their guild marks. they became boring because we did them every 36 hours and we did that because it was the only major thing released. the problem is not that leves were put in game, but the fact they were the only repeatable content put in the game.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

"What could have been" is not a feature.

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um yes, the original question was what core features were in game that could have a redeembale quality. the fact that it was in the game at release and could have been added to does make it a core feature.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

This game shipped 600,000 units, and its population peaked at around 80k or 90k. It was being sold for half off within a month of release. It's not a redeeming feature at all, because it FAILED.

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ok let's say this. say they had said they were going to make a game for hardcores from xi completely. how many casuals would have purchased this game?

let's say they they were going to go completely the opposite way and say they were going to make the game completely for casuals. how many hardcore players would have bought the game?

they sold more copies by trying to do stuff for both groups than if they had went for only one or the other. they did a poor job of it, but it was something they tried to do and if they had been able to pull it off it would have been great for the game and not just good.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

They weren't easy before? You know, with THM tanking them and maybe even soloing them?

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i never said they were hard. i said a halfway decent challenge. in case you remember the thm could not solo it without doing the hate reset on the mob, therefore, they did not technically solo it as it was intended. if a group did not have a thm that was built strictly for tanking, yes, those were decently difficult fights. i'm not going to go overboard and say hard, but at least it was harder than the tank and spank of mob grinding. i was doing most of them duo pre-nerf because i refused to hate reset the mobs, but at least they were fun and a nice challenge to duo.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

yeah i know that gladiator and that conjurer play completely the same and they are exactly no different than an archer...

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Marauder plays the same as lancer plays the same as gladiator plays the same as puglist, etc.
Archer plays like the rest of DOW but with ranged attacks.
DOM all play the same.

Whoo boy, 3 different play styles. It's like I'm playing Runescape. That I paid $80 for.

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and didn't i say with more different kinds of things to do it would have been different. you knock something because it was the only thing released so it became boring. i feel they were meant as nothing more than a quick thing for casuals to do or people getting their guild marks. they became boring because we did them every 36 hours and we did that because it was the only major thing released. the problem is not that leves were put in game, but the fact they were the only repeatable content put in the game.

um yes, the original question was what core features were in game that could have a redeembale quality. the fact that it was in the game at release and could have been added to does make it a core feature.

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Not going to bother replying to these beyond: "what could have been" is not a feature. If it was, every game would be the best game ever.

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ok let's say this. say they had said they were going to make a game for hardcores from xi completely. how many casuals would have purchased this game?

let's say they they were going to go completely the opposite way and say they were going to make the game completely for casuals. how many hardcore players would have bought the game?

they sold more copies by trying to do stuff for both groups than if they had went for only one or the other. they did a poor job of it, but it was something they tried to do and if they had been able to pull it off it would have been great for the game and not just good.

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THAT'S NOT A FEATURE, YOU NINCOMPOOP. Aiming for a larger audience is NOT a feature, and it's something EVERYONE does regardless. Moreover, they didn't exactly SELL a lot of copies. They SHIPPED 600,000 units, which were being sold for half off within a month. Within two months, retailers were asking for recalls on the game. It PEAKED at 90k players, so we can assume that MAYBE 150k units sold. That's pathetic for a flagship title from a AAA developer.

Jesus christ man.

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i never said they were hard. i said a halfway decent challenge. in case you remember the thm could not solo it without doing the hate reset on the mob, therefore, they did not technically solo it as it was intended. if a group did not have a thm that was built strictly for tanking, yes, those were decently difficult fights. i'm not going to go overboard and say hard, but at least it was harder than the tank and spank of mob grinding. i was doing most of them duo pre-nerf because i refused to hate reset the mobs, but at least they were fun and a nice challenge to duo.

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So they COULD solo it, because they could exploit the game's combat mechanics. That still means it's a broken feature. Nothing worked "as intended" with this game, then. It was a busted piece of garbage. You're not helping your case.

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YOU NINCOMPOOP

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I lol'd hard

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Marauder plays the same as lancer plays the same as gladiator plays the same as puglist, etc.
Archer plays like the rest of DOW but with ranged attacks.
DOM all play the same.

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ok let me know when a gladiator can use a multishot or the lancer can use aegis boom or a conjurer and thm aoe is the same please. when you do i will even bother to respond to the rest of your post. until they do i'm not gonna waste my time.

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Originally Posted by Amage

Seems that dev's pretty much adding anything and everything to this game
Thinking of doing infinite Arrows
Getting EXP when logged of (WHAT!!!)
Come on SE you continue to give in to all this "Easy Mode Content" Because People Do not want to have as little effort as possible . There is To Much of this going on where I personally dont understand why A company is pretty much getting all ideas and thoughts from the community , sure its fine that you do this and that customer are sometimes wrong and in this case killing with some of the CRP craft which make most of their money from arrow making . Please reconsider making these changes with complete and utter garbage content .

With that said If game continues in this path i would no longer be a customer , I will play until you make the game pay to play .

- Seacreast OUT!!!!

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Where are you references? Where are you getting this information? It just seems like a fake trolling rant to me.

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Originally Posted by darkstarpoet1

ok let me know when a gladiator can use a multishot or the lancer can use aegis boom or a conjurer and thm aoe is the same please. when you do i will even bother to respond to the rest of your post. until they do i'm not gonna waste my time.

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Good, please keep it that way forever. I can't stand arguing with people who can't read or understand anything.

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Originally Posted by Holland

Also, you seem to think the Armory system is going somewhere, is going to be scrapped or completely changed.

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We'll see, like I said I don't mind the system outside of what I mentioned and would prefer it over a job system.

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Originally Posted by Wolfie

when you do i will even bother to respond to the rest of your post. until they do i'm not gonna waste my time

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DO
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Originally Posted by Wolfie

Things SE is doing with FFXIV:

Modernizing it and making it appeal to a larger audience.

Things SE is not doing with FFXIV:

Bringing back FFXI's stupid engine that was exploited to hell and back by players (who sometimes thought that it was a feature, i.e. gear swapping mid-combat, spells that cast at 68% on the bar, haste shenanigans).

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not sure if people corrected this but:

1) Gear swapping was part of it, if you played FFXI like you said, you knew they created gear that worked with it. there were tons of pieces that were purely meant for swapping, they constantly put out pieces that were super specific...so even if they didnt intend it to be that way...it clearly turned out that way (i didnt love it, but it wasnt an exploit)

2)the 68% cast was on purpose....its called fast cast. The more you had, the quicker it would cast. If you looked, the animation would start early, but it would not finish (do the damage/effect) until it was finished (100%).

3) Haste made complete sense, and it was desired so much for a reason, it was a powerful stat, wich most games have some stats that are more desired then others. Of course the community are the ones that too it to extremes some times.

I know how you feel OP.

Even so, it's what players want.
Or at least, what half the playerbase wants. And even if you satisfy that playerbase, the other half will complain about it, so the problem will persist.

Infinite Arrows... Why do that? Because you will spare some Inventory slots? Bullsh*t I say! It's one of the few features about other MMOs that are needed to drill the butthole of the player, and the player needs his butthole to be drilled.
For Good Dawg.

About Resting Experience, my line of thinking is like this: If they plan to remove Surplus, then nerf the EXP gaining. Being casual I've reached from 48 (1% EXP) to 49 (99% EXP) in 2 days. Which means 6h30' of gameplay and that's short as hell.
I will accept that only if the experience will be nerfed.

Said my 2 cents, 'cause I felt like writing this =)

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Seeing as how your thread on gear swapping was promptly shot down by community rep response, I'd say this statement is false.

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uh nope i closed it nice try tho

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I know how you feel OP.

Even so, it's what players want.
Or at least, what half the playerbase wants. And even if you satisfy that playerbase, the other half will complain about it, so the problem will persist.

Infinite Arrows... Why do that? Because you will spare some Inventory slots? Bullsh*t I say! It's one of the few features about other MMOs that are needed to drill the butthole of the player, and the player needs his butthole to be drilled.
For Good Dawg.

About Resting Experience, my line of thinking is like this: If they plan to remove Surplus, then nerf the EXP gaining. Being casual I've reached from 48 (1% EXP) to 49 (99% EXP) in 2 days. Which means 6h30' of gameplay and that's short as hell.
I will accept that only if the experience will be nerfed.

Said my 2 cents, 'cause I felt like writing this =)

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So how long should it take to go from 48 to 49?

Is zerging raptors really that edifying that we should spend more time doing it?

Glad Yoshida already said the game won't be grind centric, I still don't get why anyone would want to spend more hours doing 11111111112111111112111111111112.

Gonna miss the 111111 jokes.

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uh nope i closed it nice try tho

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Guess that's the right thing to do when you are getting PWNED in your own thread...

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Originally Posted by Amage

uh nope i closed it nice try tho

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you sir are rere

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Originally Posted by Renshi

drill the butthole of the player, and the player needs his butthole to be drilled.

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I know I do. And I like it.

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Originally Posted by Amage

Seems that dev's pretty much adding anything and everything to this game
Thinking of doing infinite Arrows
Getting EXP when logged of (WHAT!!!)
Come on SE you continue to give in to all this "Easy Mode Content" Because People Do not want to have as little effort as possible.

With that said If game continues in this path i would no longer be a customer , I will play until you make the game pay to play .

- Seacreast OUT!!!!

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I like your thread and I agree with it. Seems devs will add everything what is on the forums. I will be one of these who will leave if things will go wrong and FFXIV will turn more into easy to gain everything game. Arrows are easy to make and even r1 arrows can do pretty decent damage compared to other classes. Stack 999 is ok. Cheap price.

It was fun at the start, but a lot of can do a damage too. And offline bonus exp -> That is very ridiculous idea (What is fatigue and guardian's favor for then ? Thats pretty much similiar). People want everything these days. I want a challenge, earned character.

I hope devs have an idea what they want to create, for now it seems they will take any idea from the forums without much thinking. I am not sure if that is a right step for them to do.

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Originally Posted by Evangela

they just adding features that XIV missing

their goal is making the game more friendly to western players

and that's a game in my dream!! I always hate WoW world/character design but love their game system

if I can play Final Fantasy with some features from western game included? YES! DO IT!

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Agree, but western type shouldnt be easy, they have to stop adding easy mode content because at the end even people that are effortless in any game will leave because of the lack of dificulty and sense of acomplishment.

0.02

btw what does being a western player have to do with anything?

Late to the party but the team is not going to make infinite arrows.

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Originally Posted by PrettyPrincess

btw what does being a western player have to do with anything?

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Nothing, and I don't even think that's a "thing". There's just experienced and inexperienced gamers IMO.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Late to the party but the team is not going to make infinite arrows.

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Why would they anyway? Ammo already stacks to 999 which is plenty... besides, crafting is supposed to be a major driving force in this game. How many people are even seriously asking for this?

I'm tired of going into a long battle, only to have 8 arrows equipped.

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Originally Posted by NefGP

Why would they anyway? Ammo already stacks to 999 which is plenty... besides, crafting is supposed to be a major driving force in this game. How many people are even seriously asking for this?

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I think you should be able to change what type of arrows you have equipped mid battle. To be more effective, especially for raids. If they have arrows stacked to 999, why not have infinite of that one arrow?

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Originally Posted by Ilean

So how long should it take to go from 48 to 49?

Is zerging raptors really that edifying that we should spend more time doing it?

Glad Yoshida already said the game won't be grind centric, I still don't get why anyone would want to spend more hours doing 11111111112111111112111111111112.

Gonna miss the 111111 jokes.

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I didn't zerg raptors to reach 48[1%] - 49[99%]. I just did leves with my LS mates =)

Shorter!
I dunno, I'm not an MMO designer, but if I see that 48[1%] - 49[99%] is as easy as preparing pizza then there's something wrong!

and what the hell was that 111 thing?

I don't think they're saying yes to everything I think they're just saying yes to the mmo standards. IE Auction house, Rested XP, Mailbox, End game content, things to do.

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Originally Posted by DeadRiser

I think you should be able to change what type of arrows you have equipped mid battle. To be more effective, especially for raids. If they have arrows stacked to 999, why not have infinite of that one arrow?

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Because 999 < infinite. and if your going to be using them for regular attacks, well that means there will be a healthy market still for arrows. infinite arrows on the other hand, causes far less demand and will hurt the ways CRP can make money. It'd be like creating a recipe for the Everlasting Gobstopper for CUL, that can be flavored differently for different classes, and prove a buff, but never run out. It would kill the CUL class, which would do nothing but aim for selling that Gobstopper.

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Originally Posted by Renshi

I didn't zerg raptors to reach 48[1%] - 49[99%]. I just did leves with my LS mates =)

Shorter!
I dunno, I'm not an MMO designer, but if I see that 48[1%] - 49[99%] is as easy as preparing pizza then there's something wrong!

and what the hell was that 111 thing?

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Oh leves? That changes everything because leves aren't repetitive at all!

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Originally Posted by Kallera

Because 999 < infinite. and if your going to be using them for regular attacks, well that means there will be a healthy market still for arrows. infinite arrows on the other hand, causes far less demand and will hurt the ways CRP can make money. It'd be like creating a recipe for the Everlasting Gobstopper for CUL, that can be flavored differently for different classes, and prove a buff, but never run out. It would kill the CUL class, which would do nothing but aim for selling that Gobstopper.

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Yeah because arrows totally work for all classes the same way food does. Don't use a ridiculous hyperbole as a comparison. Food is the ONLY thing CULs make, Arrows are not (even close) to the only thing Carpenters make.

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Oh leves? That changes everything because leves aren't repetitive at all!

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Yeah, that changes a bunch brah!

Raptor Party: 300 XP every monster, 10~ monsters every 10 minutes. 60 * 3 hours (rate I can support) = 180 monsters roughly. 180 * 300 = 54'000 EXP per Max_hours supportable by me.

Leve Party: 500-1000 XP every monster (avg. 750), 10-15 (avg. 12,5) monsters every 10 minutes. 75 * 2 hours (how much lasts the Leve Party averagely) = 150 monsters roughly. 150 * 750 = 112'500 EXP per Leve_hours.

I find it more funny doing leves rather than killing monsters. WAY more funny, and gives me more EXP output, so in order to have fun + XP I just do leves =)

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Yeah because arrows totally work for all classes the same way food does. Don't use a ridiculous hyperbole as a comparison. Food is the ONLY thing CULs make, Arrows are not (even close) to the only thing Carpenters make.

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Hi, Soube.

You are right, of course, that arrows are not the only thing a CRP makes. However, it would still impact them by arrows going infinite. It would also impact the other crafting classes that also make the parts, such as GLD, BSM, and ALC. How much, though, I could not say. We'd would only know once it happens. ^^

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Originally Posted by Renshi

Yeah, that changes a bunch brah!

Raptor Party: 300 XP every monster, 10~ monsters every 10 minutes. 60 * 3 hours (rate I can support) = 180 monsters roughly. 180 * 300 = 54'000 EXP per Max_hours supportable by me.

Leve Party: 500-1000 XP every monster (avg. 750), 10-15 (avg. 12,5) monsters every 10 minutes. 75 * 2 hours (how much lasts the Leve Party averagely) = 150 monsters roughly. 150 * 750 = 112'500 EXP per Leve_hours.

I find it more funny doing leves rather than killing monsters. WAY more funny, and gives me more EXP output, so in order to have fun + XP I just do leves =)

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Good you can do elementary grade math.

Now incorporate leve linkage randomness and the fact that you can only do them every 36 hours into your oversimplified equation.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Yeah because arrows totally work for all classes the same way food does. Don't use a ridiculous hyperbole as a comparison. Food is the ONLY thing CULs make, Arrows are not (even close) to the only thing Carpenters make.

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But it IS an important source of income, I don't see why we need to convenience one class at the expense of the economy, is gil really that hard to get for Archers?

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Originally Posted by Kallera

But it IS an important source of income, I don't see why we need to convenience one class at the expense of the economy, is gil really that hard to get for Archers?

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Is gil really that hard to get for carpenters?

:)

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Originally Posted by Ilean

Is gil really that hard to get for carpenters?

:)

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Well arrows are definitely a source of prime income.

But as Soube pointed out, they certainly aren't the only thing they make by any means.

Carps make bows

Crafter tools

Harvester tools

And many different parts for weapons

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Originally Posted by Wynn

Well arrows are definitely a source of prime income.

But as Soube pointed out, they certainly aren't the only thing they make by any means.

Carps make bows

Crafter tools

Harvester tools

And many different parts for weapons

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Not to mention :

Shields

Conjurer Arms (both 1 handed and 2 handed)

Lancer Arms

Macuahuitl type weapons for Gladiator

Shoes

Masks

Throwing Spears

And ingredients for other crafts such as wood chips for tanning.

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Originally Posted by Kiroh

Not to mention :

Shields

Conjurer Arms (both 1 handed and 2 handed)

Lancer Arms

Macuahuitl type weapons for Gladiator

Shoes

Masks

Throwing Spears

And ingredients for other crafts such as wood chips for tanning.

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Yep, these too ^^