Monk should be more rewarding

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Originally Posted by Atreides

No, I fly a SR-71 Blackbird but care about the environment, can't be crushing into an airplane just because I care about the numbers on the speedmeter right?
If DPS is required I go all out, but ADS really?!
There are times you have to drop your epeen meter and do something else, besides I find it way more fun and engaging to watch for something else than my damage once in a while.

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You're missing the point. It's just that MNK is sooo good at what it does (dpsing stuff) that it's really unnecessary to make it do what other class is suppose to do. If your set-up group only got YOU as the silencer, then go ahead, hope you have fun. Otherwise, let the other's do their job and you do yours.

You seem to be having fun either way anyway, so yeah, keep doing what you're doing, but do not wonder why it's "embarassing".

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Originally Posted by Misake

You seem to be having fun either way anyway, so yeah, keep doing what you're doing, but do not wonder why it's "embarassing".

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I still don't see how it's "embarassing" to use the tools you're given.
Sure it's a DPS loss if I do a silence every 3rd rotation but not that much that my DPS starts to suck.
I do whatever makes my team feel more comfortable and there is nothing embarassing about being an asset.

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Originally Posted by Misake

You're missing the point. It's just that MNK is sooo good at what it does (dpsing stuff) that it's really unnecessary to make it do what other class is suppose to do. If your set-up group only got YOU as the silencer, then go ahead, hope you have fun. Otherwise, let the other's do their job and you do yours.

You seem to be having fun either way anyway, so yeah, keep doing what you're doing, but do not wonder why it's "embarassing".

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Wow this proves that YOU know absolutely nothing about being a MNK or are just a bad one yourself. A skilled MNK should be able to solo silence T1/T2 while still dishing out incredible DPS. There is little to no loss in DPS by solo-silencing. It sounds like you're the one driving your Ferrari as a Honda.

I really don't see why MNKs are complaining so much when MNKs do the most single target DPS. There is no DRG vs MNK discussion to be had when the superior party comp for max DPS is DRG + MNK. If stacking DRGs were more efficient than bringing a MNK, I would agree.

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Originally Posted by Atreides

I still don't see how it's "embarassing" to use the tools you're given.
Sure it's a DPS loss if I do a silence every 3rd rotation but not that much that my DPS starts to suck.
I do whatever makes my team feel more comfortable and there is nothing embarassing about being an asset.

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Since AoD silence is much MUCH more reliable than Blunt Arrow - sarcasm intended
BRDs still reign over in terms of silence since its more reliable and they bring support on the side
Your missing my point when I bolded that guy's (whatever his name is) statement

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Originally Posted by Skyhound

Wow this proves that YOU know absolutely nothing about being a MNK or are just a bad one yourself. A skilled MNK should be able to solo silence T1/T2 while still dishing out incredible DPS.

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Silencing isnt even the main subject of this topic..but I'll bite

Just because a mnk can solo silence T1 and T2 doesnt automatically make it supreme over a BRD
BRDs have many arsenals that is crucial with coil groups/runs while MNKs have what? silence? mantra? really? clearly you know why its overshadowed

Read "NoctisUmbra" post, he/she brought up some good points (specially page 2 as this more closely related to what your talking about)

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Originally Posted by Bloopan

Considering the amount of factors that you need to be aware of when playing the job, it doesnt feel like the game is rewarding the job/players as its suppose to be

Not to mention the job is overshadowed by other DPS jobs even DRGs are getting the spotlight in the end-game content due to it being a more ideal pick than monks..

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Yoshida have been already rewarding MNKs with absurd MNK drop rates from Coil and CT already lol..

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Originally Posted by Misake

You have a Ferrari and you want to ride it like a Ford?

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You have a Ferrari and you are trying to win the Dakar ? Seriously ......
Atreides is right, drop you e-peen meter. BRD is the lowet DPS and (almost) every single party want a BRD. DPS is not the key point of this game, and aysing "DRG brings more effective DPS when there is a BRD in the group" is probably the most stupid point used here. 2MNK will do more damage than DRG+BRD, why not bring 2 MNK then why not use 2 MNK ? Actually, the game requires some burst during 15-30 seconds + a decent DPS, you have to create parties for that, not to pack big numbers and tell us you big is your e-peen.

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Originally Posted by Skyhound

Wow this proves that YOU know absolutely nothing about being a MNK or are just a bad one yourself. A skilled MNK should be able to solo silence T1/T2 while still dishing out incredible DPS. There is little to no loss in DPS by solo-silencing. It sounds like you're the one driving your Ferrari as a Honda.

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Arm of the Destroyer at 50 potency hitting one target versus an autocrit 150 potency Bootshine or 150 potency Dragon Kick. Also factor in how you need to pace yourself to properly time the skill available in only one stance and you've guaranteed a DPS loss, and a pretty hefty one to boot. BRDs and PLDs on the other hand simply save an off-GCD skill for the silence. That is what little to no loss in DPS looks like.

Listen, you don't have to be knowledgeable when it comes to MNK, but please don't try to call other people out on it when you've clearly got no idea what you're talking about. It's not surprising that when I look your character up I find a lv50 DRG and a lv12 PGL.


As for my 2 cents on solo-silencing Turn 2:

Each team can come up with their own strategy and how they feel comfortable doing it. Nothing to call embarrassing there. However, it should be a decision made consciously, where the team is aware that it is inefficient to do so but either doesn't have the BRDs/PLDs for it, or just prefers to have their MNK take care of it altogether. To each his own.

As for the most efficient, standard structure Turn 2 strat: It would be to have 2-3 BRDs and a DRG and go down the left path so ADS does not have piercing resistance. This not only works out wonders in the earlier nodes due to BRDs and DRG having fantastic burst, but also due to the piercing debuff being even more effective for each extra BRD. It also allows for a lot of flexibility/safety for silencing, especially if one or both of the tanks are PLDs.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

BRDs and PLDs on the other hand simply save an off-GCD skill for the silence.

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L2P PLD. PLD isn't off-GCD and discurpt the combo.

It's frustrating the number of people in this thread talking without knowing what they're talking about. And they will insult you...

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Originally Posted by TrivariumOri

Isn't that what you use perfect balance for, if you know there is a forced GL drop wouldn't you save perfect balance to regain the stacks and keep the dps up?

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Do you know Perfect Balance has a 3 MINUTES cooldown? In fast DPS parties, I have never been able to use it again at heart phase if I use it at the start in Titan EX. Also, good luck with Ifrit EX dashes.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

L2P PLD. PLD isn't off-GCD and discurpt the combo.

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Irony. Spirits Within IS off-GCD and does NOT disrupt 1-2-3 combo. You just have to deal with animation lock.

Another 2-3 seconds on GL would solve most Monk annoyances right now for me. Monk to me is more about accepting that things aren't going to be perfect and trying to make my non-optimal rotations the best that I can. Tanks are going to squirm causing me to miss positionals and run mobs out of range right as GL expires, etc etc.

I prefer to focus on the bonuses that the class does bring - aoe silence, dispel, backflips...

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Originally Posted by Alcyon1

L2P PLD. PLD isn't off-GCD and discurpt the combo.

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Oh, the irony of this post. Seriously. Do some of you guys even consider that you're about to say something dumb and look foolish before posting? Maybe a quick fact check?

Lemon8or beat me to it, but it's just as he said. We're not talking about Shield Bash here. That's a stun. We're talking about Spirits Within, which is an off-GCD skill with a Silence bonus, just like BRD's Blunt Shot.

So Alcyon, I turn it right back to you. L2P PLD. PLD has an off-GCD Silence and it doesn't disrupt anything.

As the leader of a raiding FC I don't consider it detrimental to bring a monk over a dragoon. If you are min maxing then a dragoon in theory could be better than a monk because of the increase to bard damage and because they don't have as large of a drawback as MNKs when conflags, gourded, phase shift, etc. But monk still bring adequate damage and the massive healing increase from mantra. They fulfill the function of a melee dps just fine. I have 3 raid groups downing twintania atm and 2 of them have a monk in it, only the main raid group has a dragoon as the melee. I rather bring a skilled monk than an unskilled dragoon simply because the class is slightly ahead.

Monk is fine. I like helping my whole party take less dmg to tumults in Titan Ex. Like helping my tanks take less dmg in Ifrit and Garuda Ex. Like boosting the healing b4 a room wide AoE from the boss or another mechanic like the big nail in Ifrit Ex. So what if GL drops. I get it back up and do my dmg. Still have DoTs hitting things like Titan when gaoled. Still do big dmg, still at top of list outside of a great smn.

anybody that actually cares if someone is a mnk or drg based on equal skill between the 2 just has 2 much to worry about.

they are both balanced, isn't that the most important thing? the balance between the jobs they have right now is probably the best I have seen in an MMO recently. The margin of difference between the classes is almost a non factor with player skill being the highest factor.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

anybody that actually cares if someone is a mnk or drg based on equal skill between the 2 just has 2 much to worry about.

they are both balanced, isn't that the most important thing? the balance between the jobs they have right now is probably the best I have seen in an MMO recently. The margin of difference between the classes is almost a non factor with player skill being the highest factor.

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But thats exactly the problem people are seeing with them.
They are balanced too well, yet dragoon pushes the damage of another class which pulls him ahead.
It wouldn't be a problem if said class isn't in pretty much every group, if your group has 2 bards then why take a monk? (-10% Piercing resist is no joke)
If we're talking only about efficiency here progress groups would pick a dragoon over a monk.

Sure some monks like myself don't have to worry about their raid spots but there are some groups that have no problem to abandon a job to get the most efficienct group going to get first kills.
The thing is all it takes is one good bard to for the dragoon to get ahead of the monk, bring two and it's not a even question anymore to pick a monk or dragoon.

I'd still rather have balance and let all you min max players worry about pushing another 5 DPS on a fight like it matters.

You know who gets first kills? Its has almost nothing to do with group makeup. It comes down to player skill and finding a team of people willing to sacrifice almost everything else in order to get their 5 seconds of internet fame of "Server First"

Give me a group of 8 unemployed skillful players willing to do nothing but work on a fight all day and I bet you could get "First Kill" with a group 90% of the forums would say is a bad party makeup.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

I'd still rather have balance and let all you min max players worry about pushing another 5 DPS on a fight like it matters.

You know who gets first kills? Its has almost nothing to do with group makeup. It comes down to player skill and finding a team of people willing to sacrifice almost everything else in order to get their 5 seconds of internet fame of "Server First"

Give me a group of 8 unemployed skillful players willing to do nothing but work on a fight all day and I bet you could get "First Kill" with a group 90% of the forums would say is a bad party makeup.

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I play with people who were in the world first clearing team of BCoB. Player skill is a given. After that comes player flexibility in jobs and forming the most effective team composition. The way the jobs are balanced now, MNK is a very low priority for most cases for reasons previously explained.

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Originally Posted by Soulburn32

I'd still rather have balance and let all you min max players worry about pushing another 5 DPS on a fight like it matters.

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Except we're not talking "another 5 dps." If the 10% resistance translates into 10% more damage, it's more like 20+ more DPS per BRD. If it's like Foe Requiem, where the 10% by many accounts functions as a 15% increase in damage, then it's 30+ DPS per BRD.

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Originally Posted by Zeronic

Still think the only problem for now is that greased lighting lasts to short. Dragoons can go on the get go. Monks need to build it up, then lose it due to the boss jumping away (all primals) or doing an ultimate attack you need to hide from. Furthermore im loving monk and although I get your point its still flavour.

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they can easily change it to increase GL duration but the effect won't kick in unless you have to be in the right position similar to what drg has.
I personally think it's just style of play - If you like the class/job you play, you would find the beauty of its imperfection.

I'll weigh in here:

-Greased Lightning is perfect the way it is. Monks @ GL 3 outdamage everybody. Monks @ GL 0-2 don't. This is the intended design of the class. Stop demanding new abilities or tweaks that would allow for Monks to keep GL3 forever. Monks aren't supposed to keep GL forever. Monks are meant to lose GL. Monks are meant to be annoyed when they lose GL. Monks are meant to find creative ways to keep GL whenever mathematically possible. Monks are meant to piss off their teammates when they do dumb things in an effort to keep GL. It's great. I love it.

-At equivalent ability and gear, I find that Monk does more damage than Dragoon. Monk+Bard does roughly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard. Dragoon+Bard+Bard does more damage than Monk+Bard+Bard. This obviously varies depending on the encounter, since the two classes thrive under different conditions.

-Mantra is really fucking good. Not enough mention of it in this thread.

-What's better? DRG or MNK? Who cares? The overall difference is so minimal. Nobody is going to lose their static spot based on the minor differences of the two classes. They both get equally discriminated from dumbass Garuda and Ifrit EX PF groups anyway. Stop demanding Perfect Balance from S-E. Pun intended.

-I'm very satisfied with Monk. I'm glad I chose to gear my Monk over Dragoon and other DPS classes. I feel that Monk has the highest skill-ceiling out of all the DPS classes in the game. I think the class is very rewarding and probably one of the most well-made classes in a game where not all classes are well-made. Be happy, Monks.

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Originally Posted by Umero

they can easily change it to increase GL duration but the effect won't kick in unless you have to be in the right position similar to what drg has.
I personally think it's just style of play - If you like the class/job you play, you would find the beauty of its imperfection.

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This has nothing to do with imperfections. No job is perfect, or should be perfect. This is about balance. They attempted to balance jobs further with 2.1, and they did. Quite a bit. The point here is bringing up another area that can use a slight tweak.

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Originally Posted by bokchoykn

Monk+Bard does rougly equal damage to Dragoon+Bard.

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False. This right here is the problem. If this were true, then there wouldn't be an issue. Then it would be a choice. Am I stacking BRDs? I should bring a DRG. However, currently is a vast majority of content, it takes a DRG and a single BRD to bring more effective DPS to a party. That's the problem.

Mantra is quite nice. Sure. It is ultimately a crutch though, and never really necessary. It's not indispensable as a skill, and although weaker it can be equipped by DRG, BRD, and WAR.

I have been playing MNK since the beginning of this game. Since beta as soon as it became available. I've cleared all content on it. I've optimized it to its peak. I know it like the back of my hand and can play it blindfolded. I am currently geared in full BiS i90 with allagan weapon on it.

I started playing DRG 3-4 weeks ago. It is i86 with a Holy Lance. Had darklight pants on even. I practiced its rotations on a dummy for a while and used it recently in extreme primals since we had a solid BRD player in the party.

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

False.

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MNK+BRD is roughly equal to DRG+BRD. Sometimes it is more. Sometimes it is less. It might depend on the encounter. It might depend on your testing. It might depend on the skill level of the player(s) you're using to test it. But I will humor you for the sake of this argument and we'll assume that DRG+BRD is very slightly more damage than MNK+BRD, but I won't concede any more than that because I would be lying. The word you used to describe this difference is "problem". Problem is a big word. WAR 2.0 vs PLD 2.0 was a "Problem". It was problematic because there PLD was so much better than WAR in every meaningful way, and WAR was an outright burden to the party. MNK 2.1 vs DRG 2.1 is NOT a "Problem".

Mantra is indeed quite nice. For you to say that it is a crutch and never really necessary, I think this exposes a complete bias in your argument. While Mantra is unnecessary (Of course it is. Otherwise you'd have to bring Monk to everything.), its job is to increase the margins of error for your healers, and help them stabilize an unstable situation by giving your entire party Convalescence. And it does a great job at that. The nature of boss design in this game is that incoming damage and healing difficulty occur in short sequences where 15 second 20% bonus to burst healing is a godsend: The final phase of Turn 4. The entire sequence of adds+bombs in Titan EX. The last few nails of the final Nail phase in Ifrit EX. MT or OT Liquid Hells in Twintania. Mantra is perfect for these situations. For you to consider the slight difference in MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD damage as a "problem" but dismiss 15 second 20% boost in healing as "just a crutch, unnecessary" is mind-boggling to me.

You also said, "Although weaker, Mantra can be equipped by X, Y and Z". Monk Mantra is QUADRUPLE the potency than the cross-class equivalent. The difference is night and day. But your only description of this difference is that it's "weaker". Not necessarily untrue, but an understatement to support your claim. If your claim that DRG cleanly outclasses MNK held any merit on its own, maybe you wouldn't have to make such exaggerations and understatements to make your point.

• The difference between MNK+BRD vs DRG+BRD: "Problem"
  
• 20% AoE healing boost over 15s every 120s: "Unnecessary crutch"
  
• 20% Mantra vs 5% Mantra: "Weaker."

This kind of post happens in every MMO: "My favorite class is broken and underpowered. The rival class is overpowered. This is a problem."

You clearly exaggerate the advantages of DRG and totally understate the advantages of MNK to further support your claim, and you're not winning anyone over to your Monk pity party.

This is simply a case of:

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"Rock is a problem. Paper is fine."
-Scissors

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

My DPS as a MNK was less than my DPS as a DRG + the increase in DPS for the BRD in both Titan and Ifrit Extreme. Despite the gear difference. Same for ADS in Turn 2.

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Here are some additional problems with this testing.

Let's start with Titan. Titan is an extremely high-variance fight when it comes to measuring DPS output, particularly due to Gaols. The fact that we're involving two players here (MNK/DRG + BRD) makes the variance even more prevalent because we're introducing a second player here. How many times are you getting Gaoled. How many times is the Bard getting Gaoled? When are they getting Gaoled? Did the BRD have to sing songs at any point? It is rarely an equal comparison, and you would need many many kills on each combination to draw conclusive evidence. I'm talking 20 kills on each at the very least. Not once on each. That's a joke.

Alternatively, you could take compare your MNK's average DPS and comparing it to the DRG's average DPS and then add 11% of the average DPS of a BRD (to add Disembowel benefit). Unfortunately, that wouldn't work either. You don't know how many times the MNK grouped with another MNK or how many times the BRD grouped with another DRG. Again, variance. On top of that, Disembowel doesn't have 100% uptime on all targets, because you're obviously not gonna use the Chaos Thrust combo on Gaols and Gaolers. It's difficult to accurately measure the value of Disembowl to a BRD's DPS. Without VERY extensive testing, there is no way to draw conclusive evidence from Titan.

Ifrit favors DRG DPS over MNK DPS. DRG+BRD will probably beat MNK+BRD in DPS almost all of the time in this fight. GL3 falls off too often and Monks are worse at killing Nails than Dragoons are. However, Ifrit is not a DPS race. No, the final nails phase is not a DPS race, it is simply a "stability check". If you have a fully functioning party of 8, you will meet the DPS requirement. In this category, Mantra in that final phase in very valuable. DPS advantages in this fight are less important than most other fights. Mantra in this fight is more important than most other fights. Because of that, it's difficult to conclude that DRG+BRD is the better composition than MNK+BRD based on DPS differences alone.

Noctus u just put in your spot. I have fallowed mnk since early access of the game and I have fallowed Noctus n every mnk forum and have always back the mnk community but this time your swaying away it. Mnk is fine and everything else is situational. That was a good read bokchoy

So, basically, let's get this straight; what's being asked here is a Dragoon nerf, not a Monk buff. If MNK is fine against all other dps jobs except for Dragoon, the obvious thing is to ask for a Dragoon nerf, not for a Monk buff... Besides, like many have said here; most of the time Monk is either spot 1 or 2 in end-game dps wise, buff it more and the next patch you'll be wishing that had never happened.

Let me clear up a few things:

Mantra is quite a solid skill. I don't mean to undermine it. However, DPS classes are to be balanced first and foremost on their ability to DPS, and then on their utility.

Bokchoy, I'm not sure what you're basing your numbers on, but for 2 long walls of text that stand on the foundation that the difference between MNK + BRD and DRG + BRD is minimal and then simply go on forever with attempts to find holes in my argument... it was a nice read I'll give you that, but it leaves me with the impression you must really not be familiar with both melee jobs and their performance in content.

As for the whole rock paper scissors thing and any other part suggesting bias - I am a person who plays all DPS jobs because that's how I enjoy this game. I don't get precious about a single one. Turned out in ARR I played MNK a whole lot, and DRG I picked up naturally. I know the jobs intimately now, and when you experience both firsthand and play them at peak level perhaps things that can otherwise be easy to overlook begin to surface. At best I'll accept I may be "making a big deal" out of something not so ground-breaking, but I will say that the differences are enough to conclude that DRG > MNK in almost any endgame scenario and will likely continue to be so at this rate perhaps until another blunt damage type job is introduced and in demand.

The reality of it actually is, on average in endgame equally geared and equally skilled MNKs and DRGs will put out similar DPS. The difference is rarely larger than 5% between performance unless there's a big difference in RNG mechanics (MNK got a clean ride while the DRG got gaoled a lot). The basic idea is, when a DRG starts hitting it produces massive amounts of spike DPS, operating usually around 25-30% higher than its sustained DPS, and gradually over longer periods this decreases until it hits a steady value. MNK, on the other hand, has to wind up and thus begins hitting very weakly, and then reaches a steady sustained value which is higher than that of DRG's by roughly 10%. Furthermore, given access to Perfect Balance, MNK is able to match and very slightly exceed its sustained DPS with a proper opener to get GL3 quickly, but nothing that would be considered a spike. Despite this, PB is on a rather long cooldown. This is what people measure by doing dummy parses, etc. Sustained DPS. What isn't considered in that is when mechanics force melee jobs out of combat, MNK needs to wind up from scratch whereas a DRG will open with Heavy Thrust and get Disembowel off in another 2 hits, and voila it's at full DPS capacity. Furthermore, being locked away from DPS doesn't stop its numerous off GCD skills from ticking back to availability, and thus a DRG comes out with a bonus by being able to spike DPS after the forced break.

When will a MNK outDPS a DRG? On a fight that behaves like a striking dummy. Full uptime. Simple tank and spank. Atomos. Caduceus. Otherwise, they are balanced in a way that in fights with mechanics that force breaks from the target they will on average perform similarly. This is where the problem arises, as again DRG buffs the BRDs in the party, effectively putting itself ahead.

I'm really curious to hear what kind of experiences and tests you're basing your claim of MNK+BRD being more or less equivalent to DRG+BRD, since you were so adamant in poking holes in my contributions. Even going so far as to assume I simply compared one MNK run to one DRG run in each content without considering obvious things like RNG mechanics being different. I am one to hoard plenty of DPS logs, if you will, from past attempts at content.

I'll end with the ADS mention. While I won't deny I play a mean DRG, I'd check my facts on ADS and its various resistances if I were you. One of the simple, and I'd say even common paths, is to go left to take out Chain Lightning and Firestorm (to give you a more clear picture). The resulting ADS at the end has magic resistance and slashing resistance, whilst being fully susceptible to blunt and piercing. That is the path we've always taken.

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Originally Posted by BloodPact

So, basically, let's get this straight; what's being asked here is a Dragoon nerf, not a Monk buff. If MNK is fine against all other dps jobs except for Dragoon, the obvious thing is to ask for a Dragoon nerf, not for a Monk buff... Besides, like many have said here; most of the time Monk is either spot 1 or 2 in end-game dps wise, buff it more and the next patch you'll be wishing that had never happened.

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Where did you even get that idea? At least in my case, I even explicitly said DRG is fine where it is compared to all DPS jobs. I'm of the opinion that even MNK is pretty solid in where its sustained DPS is. The main issue I see is with how GL3 works and how despite being the only efficient way of regaining it, PB is on such a long cooldown when it doesn't even have much of another purpose - especially considering it doesn't even spike DPS much at all.

This fight over who's better or more needed in a group is pointless to me sometimes. Fact is, every PuG only ever wants ranged classes in this game sadly, because SE thought it would be a good idea to build most of the endgame content to be alot harsher on melee. I've lost count at the amount of times I got turned down with the message "No melee". or Just looking on PF and seeing only ranged DPS positions and if you try to make your own group, guess what? no one joins :D

The only way we get a group is either by forcing our way in through duty finder (guarda, titan ext etc) or being in a FreeCompany.

When it comes to PuGing Coil however, DRG is always goona be chosen over Monk, because there is always going to be a bard in the group and someone needs to press the LB button :) People tend to prefer Disembowel over Mantra which DRG can also get btw.

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Originally Posted by Narissa

This fight over who's better or more needed in a group is pointless to me sometimes. Fact is, every PuG only ever wants ranged classes in this game sadly, because SE thought it would be a good idea to build most of the endgame content to be alot harsher on melee. I've lost count at the amount of times I got turned down with the message "No melee". or Just looking on PF and seeing only ranged DPS positions and if you try to make your own group, guess what? no one joins :D

The only way we get a group is either by forcing our way in through duty finder (guarda, titan ext etc) or being in a FreeCompany.

When it comes to PuGing Coil however, DRG is always goona be chosen over Monk, because there is always going to be a bard in the group and someone needs to press the LB button :) People tend to prefer Disembowel over Mantra which DRG can also get btw.

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Well the whole PFs and pugs in general going ranged and safe is due more to paranoia and a lot of melee players giving a bad name. It's a higher risk/higher reward role to play. They deal with a lot of shit, but bring much more DPS to the party when played well.

Typically DRG will be preferred even then as you said due to BRDs being common, also due to it being easier to not be complete trash on. That's not to say DRG is easier than MNK or vice versa. That's a whole discussion I don't want to get into. MNK is just more reliant on player skill to even be decent.

As for Mantra - yes it can be cross classed like I mentioned before, but that isn't to say MNK's Mantra isn't an asset. It is indeed a +20% to healing as opposed to a +5% healing bonus. I'm just of the opinion that the 2 melee jobs should be balanced further on the grounds of DPS alone (DPS in content) and that various utility bonuses, if not make-or-break, should aid in the choice for content and party make-up only, and not in DPS balance.

Lowering PB from the ridiculous 3 minute cooldown so that MNKs have a way of gaining GL3 more readily after drops would go a long way. Even making it something like 120 would make a huge difference.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

This has nothing to do with imperfections. No job is perfect, or should be perfect. This is about balance. They attempted to balance jobs further with 2.1, and they did. Quite a bit. The point here is bringing up another area that can use a slight tweak.

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to balance, they should nerf monk imho.

but if they did nerf mnk, the other jobs would have better burst dps, so they have to balance it by giving mnk higher burst dps. and in the end, every job would be identical.

btw, imperfections mean no job is perfect. you just stated my point. so yeah it's about balance. they are quite balanced from the way I view them. you even said it last page, it's not about dps balance and that's quite correct. They just serve different roles when it comes down to specific things and that promotes variety of game play and interests; otherwise, the game only needs 1 single dps job but that would result a boring game.

I think the issue right now is that Mantra + Dragon Kick utility is more balanced with DRG's burst, AoE, and multi-DoT situational utility rather than the considerable DPS increase for your BRDs, if you play with BRDs who can reach almost 300 ST DPS without it as I do. I think the goal of balancing the two would be making sure DRG + BRD sustained DPS is more in line with MNK + BRD sustained DPS in both stand-still and more phase-shift/RNG oriented fight, and then you bring whichever melee (or both) you value their utility for.

Some minor suggestions that could balance the DPS difference a bit more:

- Disembowel could be 5% piercing resist but buff DRG's damage (or just make Disembowel work at 10% for DRG only, 5% for BRDs) so they'll do more or less equal damage to what they do now, but the BRD buff will be less potent.
- GL3 in general could be more accessible (something like One Ilm Punch granting GL3 at the cost of a bit of immediate DPS loss), PB cooldown could be closer to 2 minutes, or GL stacks could fall off one at a time every 12 seconds. This would go a long way in balancing MNK to DRG in constant phase shift content, where not only will DRG + BRD beat MNK + BRD, DRG will just plain beat MNK.
- A minor, tiny buff to MNK's DPS, around 5 DPS or so in GL3.

Now, all that being said, I don't think there's a problem right now. For all I agree with Noctis and have experienced the same things playing with Allagan weapon DRGs and having an Allagan weapon on my alt with MNK, the difference isn't too large, and right now, as overgeared as we are for all content, it's more a min/max thing than anything. I'm going to play MNK as my main melee because I enjoy it more. The general public does not and probably won't really know that DRG is more optimal than MNK if one or the other, partially due to MNK pulling bigger numbers in BC on average, partially due to an appalling % of DRGs being the worst skill wise at least on my server (and unfortunately for melee classes, not being a skilled player will show that much more than if using a ranged class).

However, with THAT being said, in 2.2, if the primary blocker of progression is DPS checks as has been the pattern in FFXIV far more than healer/tank checks (who knows, Mantra/INT debuff could be key to a survival check in the future when lesser geared, but right now healers can easily handle all content in the game under-geared so I'm led to believe healing checks will not stop progression), you can bet the progression players will rather down content with less gear using DRG than wait a couple weeks for the DPS checks to be met.

Don't believe me that it's that big a deal? Have a "friend" parse BRD's burst going all out (for such a supposedly low end DPS class their burst is top notch), and multiply that by 1.1. Also parse DRG's burst over 10s vs MNK's over 10s. Also have your friend parse DRG's AoE over 20s vs a MNK's AoE in 20s, even using its once every 3 minutes PB. And then parse MNK + BRD vs DRG + BRD on the same enemy over 5 minutes. In every case the DRG's advantage will be far from negligible, the difference between clearing a mechanic in time or wiping a GCD before phase shift or enrage, the difference between wiping on T9 at 2% or killing the boss due to easily tens of thousands damage added over a long fight.

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Originally Posted by Umero

to balance, they should nerf monk imho.

but if they did nerf mnk, the other jobs would have better burst dps, so they have to balance it by giving mnk higher burst dps. and in the end, every job would be identical.

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If they nerfed MNK, DRG would simply put completely out-class MNK. They're close right now, with an edge to DRG from a min/max perspective, in an environment with highly skilled players.

@ Sleigh:

You basically hit the nail on the head with all I've been trying to say but explained it better than me and my fumbling on words. Thanks :)

I've been talking about a high-skill environment and min/maxing from the get go, which is why I'm fixated on something that is likely to not be noticed at all by the general playerbase. When I see a consistent edge at that level of play go to one job over another, I feel compelled to bring attention to it. Also, as you said, it is indeed exacerbated in a game that has so far thrown more DPS checks at us for progression than healing/tanking checks - at least those that would seriously benefit from Mantra or Dragon Kick.

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

If they nerfed MNK, DRG would simply put completely out-class MNK. They're close right now, with an edge to DRG from a min/max perspective, in an environment with highly skilled players.

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agreed. but I would say they should invest in giving us more variety of interesting gear to compensate the differences in gap. that way, the game would be more interesting. Keep tweaking the skills for the sake of a balance isn't that fun imo. Maybe a piece of gear that extends GL duration but having a lower str number. that's just an example.

The problem is the mnk is outside the perfect trinity as they say.

A drg increase a brd, which increases a mage. And you don't leave town without a brd most of the time, as does that blm (or double mage), as with more drgs.

Drg+Drg+Brd+mage
Drg+Brd+Brd+mage
Drg+brd+mage+mage


They just all amplify each others power massively when used together.

Mnk sadly does not have anyone to help with except another mnk. Mnks can do a lot of good damage, and may even look great in some parses, but in burst damage, and aoe power, the above combinations are just that much better.

(and in some styles, Brd is still crazy strong with those Auto attack pew pews amplified further by drgs)

And sorry mantra is worthless, in the age of high level healers, and their cure3 spam. Sure you might need a mantra in a single heal or once in a blue moon, but a good group that stacks properly for cure3 (and all primals should be doing it) makes mantra next to nothing.

SE needs to make another blunt weapon job basically.

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

Drg+Drg+Brd+mage

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Overall makes sense except this bit. Once you've already got a DRG in the party, and you're to go with another melee it is better to bring a MNK. This ends up giving it quite a low priority in a min-maxing environment for most endgame content.

I would imagine musketeer/corsair(?) will be blunt. It seems likely that this is near the top of the list for the next class/job.

I'm enjoying MNK...it's very potent and satisfying when rotations fall into place. DRG is boring.

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Originally Posted by Kirinichibon

I would imagine musketeer/corsair(?) will be blunt. It seems likely that this is near the top of the list for the next class/job.

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People have been saying that forever, but looking at the game as it is now I would argue that another ranged DPS isn't really a priority. Yoshi-P has mentioned it himself, and it makes sense, that the next class/job we'll be getting will be scout/stealth type. Likely looking at a Thief class with Ninja as a job - or something in that area. This would also mean a DPS that does slashing damage as opposed to only tanks (though they may also make it piercing, in which case lol...)

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Originally Posted by kukurumei

but a good group that stacks properly for cure3 (and all primals should be doing it) makes mantra next to nothing.

SE needs to make another blunt weapon job basically.

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But a good group isnt relying on bard inc in dmg to beat a boss. If they are, then that's not a good grp to begin with. Both drg and mnk provide benefits. If you're going to use the logic that since healers can get the job done w/o mantra it's worthless, then bard inc in dmg from drg is worthless since dps can get the job done w/o disembowel( assuming a drg is not in grp, since of course a good drg will use it on boss anyway). They are both beneficial additions to the group should the group decide to use them (or end up with them in a pug).

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

. Also parse DRG's burst over 10s vs MNK's over 10s. Also have your friend parse DRG's AoE over 20s vs a MNK's AoE in 20s, even using its once every 3 minutes PB. And then parse MNK + BRD vs DRG + BRD on the same enemy over 5 minutes. In every case the DRG's advantage will be far from negligible, the difference between clearing a mechanic in time or wiping a GCD before phase shift or enrage, the difference between wiping on T9 at 2% or killing the boss due to easily tens of thousands damage added over a long fight.

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Yea let's compare burst of a designed burst class to the burst of a designed sustained dps class. Let's compare BLM burst and SMN burst while we're at it lololol. If a grp is wiping b/c they dont have disembowel to increase bard's dmg then im worried about the group skill not the classes. And T9? Hello? Unless the whole fight of T9 has been shown already I don't know how this has anything to do with anything being stated here. If the last turn of new coil in 2.2 required a inc in bard dmg from drg to beat it, then that would be some horrible design and make every group take up 2 spots with drg+brd. Let's wait and see on coil b4 we start making up hypotheticals to support our arguments. It would be pretty dumb in my opinion to center the defeat of a boss around 2 dps.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

People have been saying that forever, but looking at the game as it is now I would argue that another ranged DPS isn't really a priority. Yoshi-P has mentioned it himself, and it makes sense, that the next class/job we'll be getting will be scout/stealth type. Likely looking at a Thief class with Ninja as a job - or something in that area. This would also mean a DPS that does slashing damage as opposed to only tanks (though they may also make it piercing, in which case lol...)

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I can't wait for ninja honestly. My most anticipated class, and really the dps I want to be the most. Just dont make it a tank please lol. I'd roll with it even if they do though :). It'd be nice if it could get a bonus from slashing resistance. Would be nice addition to utility for war.

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Originally Posted by NoctisUmbra

People have been saying that forever, but looking at the game as it is now I would argue that another ranged DPS isn't really a priority. Yoshi-P has mentioned it himself, and it makes sense, that the next class/job we'll be getting will be scout/stealth type. Likely looking at a Thief class with Ninja as a job - or something in that area. This would also mean a DPS that does slashing damage as opposed to only tanks (though they may also make it piercing, in which case lol...)

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I have reservations that a new class and/or race will be implemented before an expansion. They could...but they would have to tweak what's currently some very carefully crafted content. A new class would have to fit in the narrow window of current roles, and folks wouldn't be very happy about that.