Improve Dragoon DPS. WEAK in comparison to other DPS

only thing i would say is give dragoons a bit more magical defense ..... thats it as far as dps goes i play both and they both do good dmg so there no difference between both other than playstyle

For those who need a boost/buff to their dragoon it already exists! It's here: http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...otation-Reborn
Read and practice and you'll see that you're going to be permanently buffed.

The only thing I'd would see boosted a bit is our magical defense not to be the one who cost the most mana to my healers during Coils/Primals and not being the squishiest one of the party. But as having Defense > Magic Defense was decided by SE as being our signature I guess those healers will have to deal with it. At least it's of some use for taking WW in the face on GarudaX and to take the East Titan Egi on TitanX the time the OT takes the West one and come get my add.

I... I don't get it... the DRG in our static is almost always top DPS on most fights... Unless he messes up and dies to a tail swipe or something silly like that. I don't play one myself, only got it to 34 for B4B, but really just learn rotations remember to actually move around and you should be higher up, and gear, gear is good too.

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Originally Posted by Rochetm

Can't read parser most likely. I see so many "I do over 300 dps" people an none of them can back it up. The fact they are always bad says to me they just don't understand parsers.

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Humm, I parse 360 consistently on Atomos and Cad, and my highest was 373 time-on-target on Atomos. I was trying to see if someone can consistently do >380 without the Allagan Spear. I think I could hit 380 on a pure static fight with it, particularly in a no-acc configuration like Atomos, but it wouldn't be too much different for Cad.

I'm having absolutely no trouble putting out high dps on my DRG. I'm almost always 2nd on hate in end game content, with 3 and 4 usually being healers.

The only job that can beat DRG in single target is MNK; yes, MNK does do more but its not by any significant amount and requires the fight be dragged on long enough. The trade-off is that MNK is harder to maintain: they have more positional requirements (I LOL at the guy who said DRG have more) and losing a single stack of Lightning can really hurt you. DRG also have higher initial damage and high burst while MNK takes a while to build up, even if you use Perfect Balance to build your Lightning.

Assuming everyone knows what they doing, melee should NEVER lose a single target fight to any range DPS in any fight unless the gear difference is drastic. This applies even to fights like Garuda EX, but it requires coordination and knowing the fight well.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Humm, I parse 360 consistently on Atomos and Cad, and my highest was 373 time-on-target on Atomos. I was trying to see if someone can consistently do >380 without the Allagan Spear. I think I could hit 380 on a pure static fight with it, particularly in a no-acc configuration like Atomos, but it wouldn't be too much different for Cad.

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i think its a different parsers giving different results issue. which is weird. but i still think its happening. i average 300 on a dummy, using allagan spear and the parser that shall not be named. burst phase, yes i hit 390, but that doesn't last long.

Either i'm doing something extremely wrong (which i honestly doubt) or....idk, some discrepancy between different parsers.

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Originally Posted by PenutButter

The trade-off is that MNK is harder to maintain: they have more positional requirements (I LOL at the guy who said DRG have more) and losing a single stack of Lightning can really hurt you. DRG also have higher initial damage and high burst while MNK takes a while to build up, even if you use Perfect Balance to build your Lightning.
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eh. DRG may not have more pos requirements, but they sure as hell get penalized a lot more for missing them. its not as bad as losing your GL ofc, but it can really screw you.

also, no, monk can't burst like DRG but they can use PB to quickly ramp up to be on par or ahead of DRG's non-burst DPS

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Originally Posted by matic

i think its a different parsers giving different results issue. which is weird. but i still think its happening. i average 300 on a dummy, using allagan spear and the parser that shall not be named. burst phase, yes i hit 390, but that doesn't last long.

Either i'm doing something extremely wrong (which i honestly doubt) or....idk, some discrepancy between different parsers.

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According to FFXIV App, used by a "friend," I've seen results of 360 sustained on a training dummy using the rotation posted in the DRG rotation topic. Could just be difference of parsers, but it also comes damn close to MNK who can easily do 370+ to a training dummy, sometimes closer to 380 before running dry.

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Originally Posted by matic

i think its a different parsers giving different results issue. which is weird. but i still think its happening. i average 300 on a dummy, using allagan spear and the parser that shall not be named. burst phase, yes i hit 390, but that doesn't last long.

Either i'm doing something extremely wrong (which i honestly doubt) or....idk, some discrepancy between different parsers.

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No offense, but I think you're doing something extremely wrong.

Note: if the other person parsing you is using certain parsers, then those may have a hard time cutting off or beginning the fight appropriately (because there are other players in the zone attacking mobs), so your results may be off.

I made a forum account just to say:

...Wat?

Idk about OP....but I fight my own mob in...AK for example...and kill it faster than the tank and monk on the other mob. So.

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Originally Posted by Krilox

I made a forum account just to say:

...Wat?

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Yeah...

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

No offense, but I think you're doing something extremely wrong.

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its fine, i expected that. its hard to draw any other conclusions from the data i provided. but i really can't see what i'm doing wrong, and i have no problem being self-critical. I've been following the rotation reborn thread since the beginning and using the info there.

I use what has become the standard H IDC P TTT(etc) rotation. i weave in my off gcds. full i90 itemized towards det. I have no problems whatsoever on short conflags/snakes/any dps checks in general.


am confused.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

No offense, but I think you're doing something extremely wrong.

Note: if the other person parsing you is using certain parsers, then those may have a hard time cutting off or beginning the fight appropriately (because there are other players in the zone attacking mobs), so your results may be off.

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No offense, but your parser is wrong. Noone is doing 380 dps sustainable.

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Originally Posted by matic

its fine, i expected that. its hard to draw any other conclusions from the data i provided. but i really can't see what i'm doing wrong, and i have no problem being self-critical. I've been following the rotation reborn thread since the beginning and using the info there.

I use what has become the standard H IDC P TTT(etc) rotation. i weave in my off gcds. full i90 itemized towards det. I have no problems whatsoever on short conflags/snakes/any dps checks in general.


am confused.

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You arent doing anything wrong, people claiming they've up to 400 dps, either cant read a parser, or there's seriously something wrong with it.
Based on tons of parses (from friends, cough), in both ex primals, dummies and coil 1-5, NOONE has recorded a parse anywhere near 400...

thanks for the reply, Krilox. I am still confused about whats going on with parsers. I certainly don't think Easymode is making shit up or trolling anyone. So this brings me back to my original theory that different parsers are reporting different numbers. i guess the next step, hypothetically ofc, would be to try out different parsers.

i do find it interesting that the sustained numbers i've been hearing (380-400) are very close to the DPS i see during my "burst phase"

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Originally Posted by Krilox

No offense, but your parser is wrong. Noone is doing 380 dps sustainable.

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Even without my own experience I would trust Easy word over you. You literally walk into this thread yelling NONONO NOT POSSIBLE, Easy has a long post history of well researched/tested information and helpful advice.
I've seen 300+ dps on Titan XM (no Gaols!). I've seen 350+ on simple tank/spank fights (Ultima/T1), with Selene buff and STR pots and this is before BiS, I can realistically see someone who gets lucky with crits and a good fight timing (i.e. the fighting ending where it maximises buff timing) get over 400 dps.

Someone has parsed me hitting 403 dps on Atmos in CT. I also regularly hit 350 on Ultima if i dont mess up and lose to much dps on bit phases.

Look I should say MNK is overall a good DPS as long we maintain our overall buff and debuff, but we rely a lot on our GS which if you don't refill it will be gone quick and as a matter of a fact we have to position ourselves to increase the damage output that we do. But on the other hand DRG puts a lot of damage and doesn't need to position themselves as much as we do. I have a friend that is a DRG and i always see that he doesn't move a lot, he only moves on the moment he needs to refill his skills (Based on Titan HM fight).

It's just a matter of knowing what your doing and having a good rotation.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

I totally agree. Disembowel should be a 20% pierce resist debuff and Heavy Thrust should give a buff like Greased Lightning with 15% haste as well as its current 15% damage.

That would balance Dragoons.

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That would be so beast if that was to happen.

Most Dragoons I see deal completely abysmal damage. Comparing to the very few actually decent Dragoons I know, I have no choice but to conclude that many of them are simply very bad players. It's strange because the Dragoon rotation really isn't even that difficult and frontloads the damage like crazy... No idea how people have sub 150 in Titan HM with ilvl 82 but meh.

I don't mind if people consider the melee DPS classes weak, hopefully they will give some more undeserved buffs to classes that most people play wrong.

I seriously think you are playing with wrong Dragoons... sorry but in 90% of the parses i saw from last 3 months, drg was either Nr 1 or Nr 2 on the Total dmg dealt list, much more on single-target bossfights. Even at fights like Coil T4 where are tons of Aoe damage to be dealt, Drg shines with very high dmg output (if played correctly...) and probably ranks right under Blm (if the Blm is godd only...)

I think i could show you around 100 pics of parses with an output like that. Not sure what we talking about here... I think a dps of ~315 (constant dps, parsed over 5 minute "laps", not fight-start burst dmg) on iLvl is 85 is more than enough.

But it can vary greatly with what one does, when using buffs, use them for dots too, or w/e. It can easly go low to 220 dps if i just use wrong buffs at wrong time or never use the positioning skills in time.

For example, at the Wall in AK the dmg of a Drg can very easy be at lowest in grp if he has trouble to go to the side and since he cant go behind too he cannot use A LOT (even you dont believe it, yes, that 2 skills are A LOT A LOT A LOT) of dmg tools.

Or using the dot-skills without the positioning-buffs also greatly decerases damage. Theres a lot a Drg can do wrong but i dont think its more as other classes. Blm can screw up also and probably all other jobs too. One has to know the role thats all imo.

That mentioned Rotation reborn is a nice guide, but with a little bit of training on a puppet and thinking logically should point one in the right direction automatically usually...

From what i saw, a good working team of DDs (8 man parties) would be Drg - Brd - Blm - Smn. Drg buffs piercing dmg (for Brd and himself), bard lowers magic resist (for Blm & Smn), Smn does whatever hes good in.

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Originally Posted by matic

I use what has become the standard H IDC P TTT(etc) rotation. i weave in my off gcds. full i90 itemized towards det. I have no problems whatsoever on short conflags/snakes/any dps checks in general.

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First, I would guess every parser don't give the same results. According to the parser itself and how it has been configurated.
Second, may be your equipment, you may have a ilvl 90 equip but the overall stats are so-so and you're "loosing" a lot of dps. I can take myself as an exemple on that, I got ilvl 89 (missing the pants, I'm relaying on Onion pants atm) but I only got around 200-220 dps on primals, while I should be at 250-300. Why? Because I'm at 526 ACC and that means around 50 points of secondaries stats "lost" for Coil and like 100 points of secondaries stats "lost" on Primals. I didn't choose to be that high, I do with what Coil/Primals drop and it happened to be like that for the moment can't be helped, I don't decide what drop on bosses or I'd be full BiS already. The good news is that I'm prolly already ACC caped for the coming T9 :D
Maybe you're in a similar situation and that lower your dps somewhat.

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Originally Posted by Shayuki

Most Dragoons I see deal completely abysmal damage. Comparing to the very few actually decent Dragoons I know, I have no choice but to conclude that many of them are simply very bad players. It's strange because the Dragoon rotation really isn't even that difficult and frontloads the damage like crazy... No idea how people have sub 150 in Titan HM with ilvl 82 but meh.

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DRG rotation is pretty complex compared to MNK or any other DPS, imo. Going to MNK for fun after I haven't touched it since relic, I found it insultingly simple. The other 3 DPS (BRD SMN BLM) are all also simple rotations and/or rotation "checklists".

Though rotation difficulty from what I've seen has nothing to do with bad DRGs being bad. They just never apply their damage-boosting de/buffs to begin with.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

DRG rotation is pretty complex compared to MNK or any other DPS, imo. Going to MNK for fun after I haven't touched it since relic, I found it insultingly simple. The other 3 DPS (BRD SMN BLM) are all also simple rotations and/or rotation "checklists".

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I play MNK main and DRG alt, I simply cannot see how anyone can call DRG rotation complex with a straight face (or even more difficult than MNK, they are about the same with MNK having more of an emphasis on positional bonuses). DRG rotation flows very well in my opinion, there are no difficult decisions to be made or anything it is just a set rotation and my i85 DRG (with allagan weapon) keeps up with my i90 MNK (with primal ex weapon) in dps on the same fights. The only way I can see someone being bad at DRG is forgetting about proper use of off GCD abilities or not watching their DoTs/Heavy Thrust.

I do agree that DRG rotation gets complicated, but that is due to the nature of burst rotation (it is lenghthy and usually require a bit more memorization of a rotation) when the burst rotation are down, DRG only have to worry about applying buffs/debuffs and dots when down. As for monk in general, they dont have long and lenghthy burst rotation, in return they require constant re-position of every skills they have. For a DRG, it is more forgiving when you mess up a rotation, where as for MNK it is less forgiving because your GL3 is your main source of DPS, if you mess up your rotation, and ended up losing GL3....it will take about 9 skills to get back on track.

There is no way to lose GL3 from "messing up your rotation".

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Originally Posted by Subucnimorning

I play MNK main and DRG alt, I simply cannot see how anyone can call DRG rotation complex with a straight face (or even more difficult than MNK, they are about the same with MNK having more of an emphasis on positional bonuses). DRG rotation flows very well in my opinion, there are no difficult decisions to be made or anything it is just a set rotation and my i85 DRG (with allagan weapon) keeps up with my i90 MNK (with primal ex weapon) in dps on the same fights. The only way I can see someone being bad at DRG is forgetting about proper use of off GCD abilities or not watching their DoTs/Heavy Thrust.

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DRG rotation flows well, but it's still quite lengthy. Complex is probably the wrong word for it. MNK's things they need to reapply are independant and not tied to combos: Twin Snakes doesn't have to have a specific precursor used between Dragon Kick or Bootshine for example. So if you do the "wrong" move on MNK or do it from the wrong side, it doesn't impair your ability to continue on. Where DRG in the same scenario would need to redo Heavy Thrust or Impulse Drive (or the whole combo in the case of a miss).

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Originally Posted by Krilox

No offense, but your parser is wrong. Noone is doing 380 dps sustainable.

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Summoners does, runnin with one that can output 400 without much problems on stationnary fights.

But 380 on dragoon, please post a picture, or it just never happened. Without lb of course

Edit : nvm should learn to read properly, its possible to reach 373 -on time combat-

Im doin 367 on said fight and I'm far from beein full BiS.

From my experience (I run end game dungeons such as turn 5 as both mnk and drg and run with other melee often) mnk and drg can parse similar dps post 2.1 and one may be higher than the other given different situations.

Turn 5 has a lot of randomness in terms of parsing high dps (for melee at least) so it's not a good metric to go by but with things like Titan EX or Turn 4 I'd say DRG isn't bad at all. I still don't believe 100% the numbers different parsers give SMN but even if we concede that SMN outparses melee, at least I know for a fact that both classes can comfortably outparse BLM in Titan EX and keep up with BLM in turn 4 (say +-10%).

Besides, you should also think about effective DPS.A BLM that burns a large crowd of bugs with crit flare sure looks cool but the high dps he's generating is unneeded because there's no dps check there. Compare that to the high dps that a melee can put on the old dreadnought in p6 or the high DPS a monk can sustain during FS/FB phase etc.

as a bard i find this thread very informative. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Krilox

No offense, but your parser is wrong. Noone is doing 380 dps sustainable.

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He didn't say it was sustained. Its on tank-n-spank fights, with no ACC checks. That does not describe most content, but it is a base-line, somewhere to compare numbers while reducing as many variables as possible.

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Originally Posted by Sygmaelle

Summoners does, runnin with one that can output 400 without much problems on stationnary fights.

But 380 on dragoon, please post a picture, or it just never happened. Without lb of course

Edit : nvm should learn to read properly, its possible to reach 373 -on time combat-

Im doin 367 on said fight and I'm far from beein full BiS.

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Keep in mind that RNG is a big factor in this game since the attack rate is relatively low. I still remember longnu's >460 dps parse over 5m where he had a 44% crit rate on AAs and >75% crit on all the major attacks.

After doing Atomos several dozen times, my friend tells me I usually land right at 360. Now I have my i95 spear though, so hopefully that should go up.

hey been doing T5 bis set 481acc set havent missed on snakes or twin

So my friend has parsed using both ACT and FFXIV/LogRep2, and has noticed a large disparity between them, which he was vocally telling me about outside of the game. ACT will generally be on the conservative end of dps, so in the 200-300 range, while FFXIV and LogRep2 will be between 300-400. Has anyone else noticed this disparity? I just think it might confuse some people using ACT who think they should be hitting higher 300's, when really that comes from FFXIV/LogRep2 and higher 200's is the norm for ACT.

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

So my friend has parsed using both ACT and FFXIV/LogRep2, and has noticed a large disparity between them, which he was vocally telling me about outside of the game. ACT will generally be on the conservative end of dps, so in the 200-300 range, while FFXIV and LogRep2 will be between 300-400. Has anyone else noticed this disparity? I just think it might confuse some people using ACT who think they should be hitting higher 300's, when really that comes from FFXIV/LogRep2 and higher 200's is the norm for ACT.

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I heard logrep2 inflates numbers by a lot as well. I'm pretty sure the people who say they're doing 360-380 dps sustained are either flat out inflating their own numbers, or using logrep.

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Originally Posted by EasymodeX

Keep in mind that RNG is a big factor in this game since the attack rate is relatively low. I still remember longnu's >460 dps parse over 5m where he had a 44% crit rate on AAs and >75% crit on all the major attacks.

After doing Atomos several dozen times, my friend tells me I usually land right at 360. Now I have my i95 spear though, so hopefully that should go up.

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Yeah it make me wonder about something, mainly about the solvers for BiS because I totally don't know how all of this is workin, I prefer to be honest :P

Given that critical hits have a variety of +% dmg (its not a "fix" %, it can be +22 / + certainly something / +50 / +66%), how come determination is so valuable ?

When I have a look on parsers, usually the main source of damage is like, 20 ish % of auto attacks first (so I guess thats why determination is valuable here), then your skills, so, wouldn't it be recommandable to simply go full crit in order to make your auto attack crit as much as possible too ?

I mean I fully understand the concept of better base damage and what not but apart a +10% crit chance and power surge, there's not that much ways to profit of crit damage that is granted by higher base damage (which is absolutely random when you look in the logcombat / parser, unless someone can explain to me how these different % are happenin)


Otherwise, yes Logrep actually parse higher in dungeons / trials / raids you name it, but its the same on dummies more or less

I'm not heavily into numbers but doing coil 4 last night me (smn) and a blm were out doing a drg and brd by a huge margin and if I remember right they had better gear.

Whwn I tank though I notice drgs draw a huge amount of emnity.

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Originally Posted by NoctisDrift

I heard logrep2 inflates numbers by a lot as well. I'm pretty sure the people who say they're doing 360-380 dps sustained are either flat out inflating their own numbers, or using logrep.

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Look at total damage done instead of DPS. Different parsers have different ways of calculating DPS (logrep's DPS calculation is kind of weird to be honest). The total damage done should be relatively consistent across parsers.

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Originally Posted by SeraviEdalborez

DRG rotation is pretty complex compared to MNK or any other DPS, imo. Going to MNK for fun after I haven't touched it since relic, I found it insultingly simple. The other 3 DPS (BRD SMN BLM) are all also simple rotations and/or rotation "checklists".

Though rotation difficulty from what I've seen has nothing to do with bad DRGs being bad. They just never apply their damage-boosting de/buffs to begin with.

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I find the dragoon rotation far easier than monks, nothing complex about it. A lot of it isn't even positional. Most annoying part of monk I find is keeping my GL3 up in a lot of fights.