New Inner Beast DR.. the end all be all skill

The issue is that nerfing PLD would have made completing the content much more difficult than necessary.

Heaven forbid people have to play well and coordinate with their party in order to complete the hardest content available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vortok

Heaven forbid people have to play well and coordinate with their party in order to complete the hardest content available.

---

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

The point was that by nerfing PLD, you would be making the content much more difficult than originally intended because the disparity between WAR and PLD in 2.0 is very large.
This is why you don't see anyone doing WAR/WAR.
Doing such a nerf would essentially make it WAR/WAR, and no one did that because it was much more difficult than necessary without being almost entirely decked out in gear.

Coordination has little to do with anything when the tools you are given are too weak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

The point was that by nerfing PLD, you would be making the content much more difficult than originally intended because the disparity between WAR and PLD in 2.0 is very large.
This is why you don't see anyone doing WAR/WAR.
Doing such a nerf would essentially make it WAR/WAR, and no one did that because it was much more difficult than necessary without being almost entirely decked out in gear.

Coordination has little to do with anything when the tools you are given are too weak.

---

Except we know that Coil was balanced around Warriors tanking. So bringing PLD down to the level of WAR would actually be exactly how difficult it was intended to be. Buffing WAR instead was a mistake, although I understand why they did it, that doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

It still baffles me how they could have overseen something as big as that. It's like they made Paladin and didn't even attempt to do the content with it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Except we know that Coil was balanced around Warriors tanking.

---

Um...no we don't.
There was never any statement made by the devs that the content was designed around WAR.
Heck if anything, everything points to it being designed around WAR/PLD.
You really need to stop making such a statement when there is literally NOTHING to support it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

So bringing PLD down to the level of WAR would actually be exactly how difficult it was intended to be. Buffing WAR instead was a mistake, although I understand why they did it, that doesn't make it any less of a mistake.

---

Except it wasn't a mistake, it was a good idea.
WAR did NOT scale with content appopriately.
So even if they left it alone, as content became harder, and incoming damage grew, WAR would fall further and further behind because it did not scale at the same speed as the content.

PLD was designed well in 2.0.
WAR was not designed properly, that is the reality.


@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.
If both PLD and WAR are in ilvl90 gear, they're already overgearing the content so any disparity won't show.
Such a disparity won't show unless the content is actually difficult enough to bring out these issues.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.

---

That's probably what happened. CT was supposed to be released along with everything else at launch, and since it was supposed to be the bridge in gear between Coil and DL/Titan it would make sense they would test Coil with ilv80 and 90 gear like intended.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

Heaven forbid you actually understood the point of my response without immediately smashing your keyboard while working with your own ideas.

---

They stated that PLD was performing better than they expected it would in Coil. So regardless of how simple it should've been to catch "use cooldowns to not die" they expected it to be tougher than it has turned out to be.

My comment was also aimed at the game as whole. There are quite a few "oh, that horrific mistake didn't happen, continue the fight" buttons that are available throughout the various classes. People can get away with playing extremely sloppy 99% of the time so there's no incentive for most to improve. We've all heard the stories of WARs attempting Titan/Coil and how half the party was rotating Eye for an Eye, Virus, Blinds, etc to help keep the tank up. That type of coordination and teamwork should've been the norm, but I guess it was too hard.

So now we begin the power creep, not that it wasn't already in full effect with speedruns being the norm for months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vortok

They stated that PLD was performing better than they expected it would in Coil. So regardless of how simple it should've been to catch "use cooldowns to not die" they expected it to be tougher than it has turned out to be.

My comment was also aimed at the game as whole. There are quite a few "oh, that horrific mistake didn't happen, continue the fight" buttons that are available throughout the various classes. People can get away with playing extremely sloppy 99% of the time so there's no incentive for most to improve. We've all heard the stories of WARs attempting Titan/Coil and how half the party was rotating Eye for an Eye, Virus, Blinds, etc to help keep the tank up. That type of coordination and teamwork should've been the norm, but I guess it was too hard.

So now we begin the power creep, not that it wasn't already in full effect with speedruns being the norm for months.

---

But I think there's something good to take away from all this. That the type of coordination you're talking about was the original intent for difficulty. They took the easy route and just buffed WAR for now (because seriously, can you imagine the sea of tears that would flow from every FC that currently relies upon PLD tanks in coil?) for now. But I'm expecting coil in 2.2 to be something more along the difficulty of running double WAR in 2.0.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

Um...no we don't.
There was never any statement made by the devs that the content was designed around WAR.
Heck if anything, everything points to it being designed around WAR/PLD.

---

They may have originally intended it to be beat with WAR/PLD. However, most of the stuff they've said about WAR & PLD in coil hints to them playing a lot more WAR when testing/designing it than PLD. They kept insisting WAR was just fine and performing like it should. Then they come out and say they're buffing WAR, but only because PLD is performing too well. They actually never mentioned anything about scaling to my knowledge.

Let's recap:

WAR just right
PLD too strong

so if WAR is just right (and find me the post where they said WAR was too weak), then coil was probably supposed to be as hard as it is for groups that use WAR tanks.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

@Exstal: It makes me think they tested the content in better gear than what would be available to player's, so it hid the problem that was there.
If both PLD and WAR are in ilvl90 gear, they're already overgearing the content so any disparity won't show.
Such a disparity won't show unless the content is actually difficult enough to bring out these issues.

---

They said there were times in certain fights where the tank was supposed to die. The PLD does not die in those situations when he's supposed to. Nothing about that says they were testing in ilvl80 gear.

Hell, if they thought there was just no way the PLD could survive in those fights, I'm more inclined to think they were testing while using AF gear.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

But I think there's something good to take away from all this. That the type of coordination you're talking about was the original intent for difficulty. They took the easy route and just buffed WAR for now (because seriously, can you imagine the sea of tears that would flow from every FC that currently relies upon PLD tanks in coil?) for now. But I'm expecting coil in 2.2 to be something more along the difficulty of running double WAR in 2.0.

---

Yeah, we can hope newer content is balanced around their updated understanding of how much punishment the tanks can take. If anything, the item level requirements (as much as I hate anything remote similar to the toxicity that was gearscore) of the Extreme Primals in relation to everything else is a hopeful sign.

They feel 57 is enough for Titan HM (with good players, it sure is with room to spare) and Titan was a pretty fun fight to learn - I did it with WARs that weren't even full DL, just required healers to be on the ball. CT only requires 50 and drops ilvl 80, though I imagine there's a larger gap there be design. Extreme Primals go from 65-70 as their starting point, so hopefully those will be quite fun to learn. And the tuning of turn 6 of Coil and beyond. They've certainly shown they can design interesting content, it's just irritating how much fluff that has to be waded through to get there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vortok

Dev statement

---

Their statement was clearly a way of them trying to cover up the whole poor design for WAR so this is a moot point.
To even bring up the DEV's statement when it was so full of holes is just grasping at straws.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vortok

snipping for space

---

Speed runs are not indicative of a power creep.
Otherwise, everything can be considered a power creep.

Secondly, the entire coordination could be done for a PLD to a greater effect.
It also should not require the abilities of a DPS to keep a tank up.
Content should be what determines the difficulty, not the weakness of a class.
To even make such a suggestion is just a desperate argument that holds little strength.

Given they also weakened Virus yeah...quite sure that is an indication they don't want DPS to be responsible for Tanks.


Edit: Just because TitanHM is set to ilvl55 does not mean its something that should be done in only WP gear. O_o You wouldn't be able to survive due to how hard Mountain buster+ Rock buster + auto attack hits after a certain time period. not including Tumults.
Its clear they wanted you to do it in ilvl70 gear given he drops ilvl80

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leiron

due to how hard Mountain buster+ Rock buster + auto attack hits after a certain time period.

---

Wait what? Since when does Titan hit harder the longer the fight goes on? As far as I know the only thing that did more damage the longer the fight went was Tumult.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Giantbane

They said there were times in certain fights where the tank was supposed to die. The PLD does not die in those situations when he's supposed to.

---

I think it's more apt to say that there were conditions that were supposed to be wipe conditions that weren't acting as wipe conditions. For Caduceus, since slimes still spawn after split, I'm pretty sure the intended strat was for players to continue feeding the split snakes, and that having more than 2 stacks was supposed to be a wipe condition. I'm also pretty sure that the devs intended for the dreads in t4 to be a wipe condition when they'd eaten multiple bugs; the spawn positioning and general set up of the rest of the fights (the MT and OT grab and separate portions of the phase's spawn) suggests that the bugs were probably intended to be kited by the OT while the MT handled the dread. Intentionally feeding bugs to dreads probably wasn't something they thought players would do, especially since it heals them (which means absolutely nothing when the dread hasn't been touched by the DPS yet).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zoomie

Not this again...

---

As long as people will bring a FALSE statement, you'll see this popping again.
The fact that you generally need less MP to bring a PLD full life is NOT a healing bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As long as people will bring a FALSE statement, you'll see this popping again.
The fact that you generally need less MP to bring a PLD full life is NOT a healing bonus.

---

In all technicality you are correct. However, when comparing the effects of Shield oath to defiance, it is.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

As far as I know the only thing that did more damage the longer the fight went was Tumult.

---

You can actually prevent Tumult from doing more than 3 ticks of damage by silencing him, so it's not like the building Tumult really presents a problem either.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonus

In all technicality you are correct. However, when comparing the effects of Shield oath to defiance, it is.

---

Honestly, the number of times the difference will result in needing an extra heal to be cast are so small, and the amount that last heal needs to heal for are so small, this difference is irrelevant.

Use Storm's Path once, BOOM, difference gone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kitru

You can actually prevent Tumult from doing more than 3 ticks of damage by silencing him, so it's not like the building Tumult really presents a problem either.

---

Indeed, and you don't really need to silence it anyway. The only time Tumult is going to kill you is if you only have 3-4 players left alive. At that point, you deserve to fail.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Leonus

In all technicality you are correct. However, when comparing the effects of Shield oath to defiance, it is.

---

Indeed, -20% Damage Taken is better than +20% Cure received.
But against skills that bypass Shield Oath, or damage taken when Shield Oath is not up (For a little DPS boost with Sword Oath), that "technical" difference is important

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Wait what? Since when does Titan hit harder the longer the fight goes on? As far as I know the only thing that did more damage the longer the fight went was Tumult.

---

That is because I am factoring Tumult's as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As long as people will bring a FALSE statement, you'll see this popping again.
The fact that you generally need less MP to bring a PLD full life is NOT a healing bonus.

---

Less damage taken= less HP needed to restore= indirect healing bonus.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

As long as people will bring a FALSE statement, you'll see this popping again.
The fact that you generally need less MP to bring a PLD full life is NOT a healing bonus.

---

Less damage taken= less HP needed to restore= indirect healing bonus.


@Paikis: I was factoring Tumult's into the equation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Paikis

Indeed, and you don't really need to silence it anyway. The only time Tumult is going to kill you is if you only have 3-4 players left alive. At that point, you deserve to fail.

---

The Titan groups I run with do it all the time anyway because it allows the healers to get away with casting only a single AoE heal (Medica II covers 3 Tumult ticks all on its own, no need for Succor) whereas letting the Tumults go off without interruption generally means that the healers both have to spam their AoEs a bit (WHM doing Medica II and then following it up with 1-2 Medica I, SCH just throwing out Succors). Also, if we're bringing along a relatively undergeared carry, they can sometimes die to chain Tumults even *with* AoE heals.

I don't understand why people do crazy equations or invent obscure terms like "Indirect healing bonus" to just explain "damage reduce"...

Next time, we'll see "Sword Oath provides an indirect-non-missed-non-skills-enmity-bonus"...Hmm, no, it just gives you an additionnal weaker auto-attack :p

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

I don't understand why people do crazy equations or invent obscure terms like "Indirect healing bonus" to just explain "damage reduce"...

---

Less damage taken = less healing needed.
For a WAR to have the equivalent percentile of healing recovered per heal, a 25% healing bonus is required.
Hence, mitigation provides an indirect form of a healing bonus.
There is math that proves it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

Next time, we'll see "Sword Oath provides an indirect-non-missed-non-skills-enmity-bonus"...Hmm, no, it just gives you an additionnal weaker auto-attack :p

---

I like how you've gone from trying to make an actual argument, to just throwing out quips because its too hard to try and hold a form of discussion.
If you don't like the fact people disagree with you, and can actually prove their points, then perhaps you should simply keep your opinions to yourself.

The only thing math proves is that -20% damage taken is better than +20% healing received.
Mitigation provides...mitigation.

People are just making up terms to explain something else.

And besides, why did the discussion go on "Which one is better" ? Did I mention "WAR" in my original post ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

The only thing math proves is that -20% damage taken is better than +20% healing received.
Mitigation provides...mitigation.

People are just making up terms to explain something else.

And besides, why did the discussion go on "Which one is better" ? Did I mention "WAR" in my original post ?

---

effective hp and effective healing explicitly define what someone is talking about when using "math" to compare less damage taken to either more hp or more healing received.

effective hp = how much damage you can take when damage reduction is removed from the equation
effective heals = how much damage is healed when damage reduction and bonus healing are both removed from the equation

When you convert damage reduction, bonus hp and/or bonus healing into either effective hp or effective heals (depending on what you're talking about), then it's much easier to make meaningful comparisons between the two abilities that detail exactly why one is better than the other.

They're not terms made up to sound fancy for no good reason. They are precise terms to explain exactly what's going on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reynhart

The only thing math proves is that -20% damage taken is better than +20% healing received.

---

Congratulations on agreeing.
20% mitigation translates to the following.
25% eHP
25% healing bonus

It is not made up terms, it is called math.