PLD Negotiation (Vs WAR)

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Originally Posted by VoxInaBox

Either way. it's making the class with the highest hp also have the same or near the same damage mitigation as the PLD. PLD doesn't have near as much hp or str as a WAR does, and the damage mitigation was the only thing that made up for it stat wise.

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STOP!

Paladins still have Block, which warriors do not get. Warrior damage intake is going to be very skill dependent. But all the skill in the world wont save you from a large crit in Coil in those windows where our new DR effects go down, and we don't have any other DR skills in effect.


The boosted HP will mitigate those strings of downtime, so we don't get one shot for not pulling off a flawless rotation of overlapping Damage Reduction.
The increased Healing taken is there so Healers are restoring the same percentage of your Health Bar as a WAR or PLD, avoiding the WAR becoming a huge MP drain to try and get back to safety levels.

The way i see it, the PLD is still the premiere damage reduction Tank, as its DR effect is always on, with the cooldowns to burst out some very heavy reductions, while the WAR is now capable of reducing its damage taken in spikes. We were never really a "self heal" Tank because IB was so limited in its usability. Restoring 2k HP every 20 or so seconds isn't really effective healing, especially as the Tank is receiving external healing, most IB's went to waste as pointless overheal.
It was great when it saved your life, but if it was saving your life, something went wrong on your healers end.

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Originally Posted by VoxInaBox

Either way. it's making the class with the highest hp also have the same or near the same damage mitigation as the PLD.

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False.
Why?
Math

Shield oath= 20% mitigation
1/.8 = 1.25

Defiance= 25% hp buff

1.25 = 25% more hp = Shield Oath provides equivalent eHP to Defiance.
Another note

Shield oath provides a 25% indirect Healing bonus.
25% HP + 20% healing bonus < 25%hp + 25% healing bonus.
Defiance is behind.
Learn to math.

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Originally Posted by VoxInaBox

PLD doesn't have near as much hp or str as a WAR does, and the damage mitigation was the only thing that made up for it stat wise.

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False, Paladin strength is very close.
Paladin eHP is higher than a War.
Base Hp is slightly lower b about 40 or so.

Math> you.

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Originally Posted by VoxInaBox

WAR aren't Under powered. People just didn't want to be a WAR because they thought it was going to be a DPS class when it first came out.

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Wow you're better than Miss Cleo.
You can read people's minds and figure out exactly why they play a spec.
Oh wait no, you're just ignorant.

Now you're asking for Paladin's QoL fixes while warrior is getting the buffs they need to do end-game? Try that when we get the QoL fixes like Foresight basically still does nothing, Unchained is still overshadowed by Inner Beast and heck, Steel Cyclone, Mercy Stroke is still very hard to hit especially against BLM who does immense burst damage. Like many people have said: Good thing you don't have the final say. You're obviously too biased with Paladin and just like to stay above other tanks to feel like you are wanted instead of competing against them head to head in a battle of skills.

It's so cute that you think you're in a position to negotiate.

Patches will continue until morale improves.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Shield oath provides a 25% indirect Healing bonus.

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Please explain

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Please explain

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Due to a PLD's built in 20% DR a PLD's hit points are effectively worth more than 1.

If a PLD takes a hit for 200 they will take 160 damage (200*.8 = 160). Requiring only a heal of 160 to fully mend the damage from a 200 damage attack. Hense the "effective" healing bonus.

You can't count 25% HP due to damage mitigation AND 25% healing bonus for Shield Oath
So it's not 25% HP + 25% healing bonus > 25% HP + 20% healing bonus

It's 25% HP (Shield Oath) < 25% HP (Defiance HP bonus) + 20% healing (Defiance healing buff, no Rage V needed in 2.1)

So, Leiron's calculation was wrong and he should apologise to VoxInaBox.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Please explain

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Zoomie already covered it, which you promptly declared as wrong without any attempt to make refutation of the logic other than just asserting your argument.
So why am I going to bother with someone who has no intent of changing their mind in the first place?

My calculation is correct.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You can't count 25% HP due to damage mitigation AND 25% healing bonus for Shield Oath
So it's not 25% HP + 25% healing bonus > 25% HP + 20% healing bonus

It's 25% HP (Shield Oath) < 25% HP (Defiance HP bonus) + 20% healing (Defiance healing buff, no Rage V needed in 2.1)

So, Leiron's calculation was wrong and he should apologise to VoxInaBox.

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This was covered by math in many other posts in the forums. Defiance needs to have 25% healing in order for it to EQUAL Shield Oath. Otherwise, Shield Oath is better (by a little bit)

Usually I don't agree with callous remarks like Leiron's, but yeah. Your wrong Reyhart.

Look over the math posted above again.

Here's that post:

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Originally Posted by Maelwys

You're neglecting the fact that that 20% Healing needs to be applied to a 25% bigger Health pool.

+20% damage resistance:
Starts at 5000 HP.
Receives a 2000 damage hit, takes 1600 damage.
= 3400 HP (68% of max)
Receives a 1000 HP heal. Gains 1000 HP.
= 4400 HP (88% of max)


+25% HP and +20% healing:
Starts at 6250 HP.
Receives a 2000 damage hit, takes 2000 damage.
4250 HP (68% of max)
Receives a 1000 HP heal. Gains 1200 HP.
= 5450 HP (87.2% of max)

PLD actually still have a slight edge because the +Healing is only 20%, not 25%
But realistically the performance is now so close as to be effectively equal in normal gameplay.



Granted.

(My point was they were stripping the +Healing from additional Wrath Stacks and adding it to Baseline Defiance!) ;)

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Originally Posted by glen7187

Here's that post:

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I think we might have to have every tank who posts in the tank forums put the math in their sigs so people will stop arguing under false assumptions between Shield Oath and Defiance. Its usually the beginning of half the bad posts/topics in the tanking section.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

So, Leiron's calculation was wrong and he should apologise to VoxInaBox.

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You're not thinking it through man.

If a PLD takes a hit for 200 they will take 160 damage (200*.8 = 160). Requiring only a heal of 160 to fully mend the damage from a 200 damage attack.

If a WAR takes a hit for 200 they eat the full 200 damage. They are now 200 HP down and need to be healed to full. However if a heal of 160 is applied just like the paladin got your 20% healing buff only brings it up to 192 (160*1.2 = 192) leaving this poor warrior 8hp short of full.

The point being that PLD hp is worth more than WAR hp simply due to Shield Oath's built in mitigation which results in a "effective" healing buff.

Sadly your opinion based upon nothing but your own opinion is wrong and you should apologize to Leiron.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I think we might have to have every tank who posts in the tank forums put the math in their sigs so people will stop arguing under false assumptions between Shield Oath and Defiance. Its usually the beginning of half the bad posts/topics in the tanking section.

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lol I couldn't agree more!

The logic ?
Simple:
Shield Oath effect is reducing damage by 20%. It's basically 25% more eHP.
Defiance gives you 25% more HP, it's basically 25% more eHP.

So, for the same hit, PLD and WAR lose the same ratio of HP, providing they have the same base HP (Which is wrong, even if the difference is slim)

Example :
PLD HP = 5000
WAR HP = 5000
incoming damage = 1000

PLD gets hit for 800 with Shield Oath : 5000 - 800 = 4200 HP remaining HP (84% HP)
WAR uses Defiance and take the hit : 5000*1.25 = 6250 HP - 1000 = 5250 HP remaining (84% HP)

Now, for the healing part, Shield Oath doesn't give any bonus.
Let's say the healer toss a Cure for 400 HP. He need two Cures to replenish the PLD's HP pool
As for the WAR those two Cures won't heal 400 HP, but for 480. Indeed, it won't bring the WAR back to full Life but missing 40HP, but you can't put aside the WAR other means to Cure himself with Storm's Path, or even Inner Beast.

You have it backwards... and still wrong.

Just look at the math man. LOOK AT IT PLEASE!

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The logic ?

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Please read glen7187's post quoting Maelwys. You are wrong Reyn.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The logic ?
Simple:
Shield Oath effect is reducing damage by 20%. It's basically 25% more eHP.
Defiance gives you 25% more HP, it's basically 25% more eHP.

So, for the same hit, PLD and WAR lose the same ratio of HP, providing they have the same base HP (Which is wrong, even if the difference is slim)
But, to recover those HP, healers needs 20% more healing power to bring back the PLD to full life.

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Not so simple a caveman can do it it seems. Just look at the math instead of arguing just for the sake of arguing. You are wrong.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

You're not thinking it through man.

If a PLD takes a hit for 200 they will take 160 damage (200*.8 = 160). Requiring only a heal of 160 to fully mend the damage from a 200 damage attack.

If a WAR takes a hit for 200 they eat the full 200 damage. They are now 200 HP down and need to be healed to full. However if a heal of 160 is applied just like the paladin got your 20% healing buff only brings it up to 192 (160*1.2 = 192) leaving this poor warrior 8hp short of full.

The point being that PLD hp is worth more than WAR hp simply due to Shield Oath's built in mitigation which results in a "effective" healing buff.

Sadly your opinion based upon nothing but your own opinion is wrong and you should apologize to Leiron.

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You could be right, if being "full life" DID matter. You don't need to be full life, you just want NOT to drop to 0.
So your 5000 HP PLD took 160 and is now at 5840, but your 6250 (5000*1.25 for Defiance) HP WAR is still at 6050 HP after taking 200.

Been there, was wrong too. It takes time to see it but I'm sure you will see it. A 200 damage reduced by 20% will deal 160 Dmg but you cannot heal 200 DMG with 20% more healing from 160 cause it will only heal 192HP. Your 8 HP deficit is the 5%.

My mah math was slightly off.

eHp on WAR and PLD post-patch is equal - it is/was not equal pre-patch due to Wrath Mechanics being tied to the healing bonus.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

You could be right, if being "full life" DID matter. You don't need to be full life, you just want NOT to drop to 0.
So your 5000 HP PLD took 160 and is now at 5840, but your 6250 (5000*1.25 for Defiance) HP WAR is still at 6050 HP after taking 200.

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Umm...

Replace full life with "X amount of HP needed to not drop to 0 in the next attack" and the math is exactly the same.

Not to blow things up here, but my posts were just to show that Shield Oath and Defiance are not really equal... Defiance needs that extra 5% healing to make it on par or better than Shield Oath in terms of effectiveness..

BUT...

If you want to talk in terms of eHP, Reynhart is correct in that regards. Using Valk's definition:
EHP = (Base HP + 15 x dVIT) x (100/(100 – % damage reduction))

If you just pretend the base HP is 5000 and ignore the 15 X dVIT part, you have
PLD eHP = 5000 HP x (100/(100 – % damage reduction)) = 5000 HP x (100/80) = 6250
WAR eHP = (5000 HP x 1.25) x (100/(100 - % damage reduction)) = 6250 x (100/100) = 6250

So both have the same eHP in terms of this definition. It's just the required healing after a hit that makes Shield Oath and Defiance slightly unequal.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Blaa Blaa Blaa

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No one is saying that shield oath LITERALLY buffs healing done to Paladins. However by YOUR OWN admission healing a paladin to full takes less healing than it does to heal said warrior to full despite the warrior having 20% increased healing taken.

"Effective" healing bonus. Not actual green numbers equaling hit points healed rather the value or "worth" of said numbers. When a healer heals a paladin for 160 those 160hp are worth more than the 192hp that the SAME heal would do to a warrior. I'm not sure how much more clear this can be made.

The entire point of saying that shield oath has an effective, EFFECTIVE not LITERAL, healing buff is to combat people like you who point out that the 20% healing bonus on defiance somehow makes it better or even on par with shield oath.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

Shield Oath PLD HP: 5250

WAR Defiance: 6300 (WAR HP: 5250)

Post-patch*

DMG 6300

PLD takes -> 6300 - (6300 x .2) or 6300 - 1260 = 5040 DMG taken.

No buffs PLD HP: 210 @ 4% HP
Rampart PLD HP: 1218 @ 20% HP

No buffs WAR HP: 0 @ 0% HP
With Inner Beast buff - WAR HP: 1260 @ 20% HP

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I knew something was wrong here. You need to multiply the WAR's HP by 1.25, not 1.2

Unless you were making some other point.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

6562 - 6300 = 262 or 3% (feel better?)

eHP wise WAR/PLD are almost equal post-patch is all I'm saying - even more so with that little correction. PLD still has the benefit of everything is "on-demand" whereas WAR is "time-it-right".

Not sure why there's threads asking for changes to PLD.

Either way the math /is/ relatively accurate from a % vs % standpoint and the higher the damage climbs the more you prioritize the PLD over WAR from an ease of use standpoint. Even post-patch.

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If by relatively accurate you mean "incorrectly made it seem that Paladins can survive a hit that would kill a Warrior", yeah, I guess its relatively accurate.

If a Paladin and a Warrior have the same base HP, same defense relevant stats and are using Shield Oath and Defiance, anything* that kills a Warrior will also kill a Paladin.

*it might be possible that this isn't true depending on how damage and HP values are rounded, but it will never be a difference as huge as the missing 262 HP on the Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I knew something was wrong here. You need to multiply the WAR's HP by 1.25, not 1.2

Unless you were making some other point.

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6562 - 6300 = 262 or 3% (feel better?)

eHP wise WAR/PLD are almost equal post-patch is all I'm saying - even more so with that little correction. PLD still has the benefit of everything is "on-demand" whereas WAR is "time-it-right".

Not sure why there's threads asking for changes to PLD.

Either way the math /is/ relatively accurate from a % vs % standpoint and the higher the damage climbs the more you prioritize the PLD over WAR from an ease of use standpoint. Even post-patch.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

SNIP

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You're missing it again and its right there in your own math.

A 5000hp PLD takes a hit for 3000 (3000*8 = 2400) and has 2600hp left. PLD gets healed for 1000 which puts him at 3600 (72%hp)
A 6250hp WAR takes a hit for 3000 and has 3250hp left. WAR gets healed for 1000 (1000*1.20 = 1200) which puts him at 4450 (71%hp)

Lets repeat this as bosses don't stop at one hit!

Our now 3600hp PLD takes 2400dmg and has 1200 hp left and is then healed for 1000 leaving them at 2200 (44%hp)

Our now 4450hp WAR takes 3000dmg and has 1450 left and is then healed for 1200 leaving them at 2650 (42%hp)

Sadly the boss comes at us once again and now hits us for exactly 2650...

The PLD takes 2120 (2650*.8) and limps away with 80hp.

The WAR dies...

Effective healing is a thing as the disparity becomes larger and larger as the fight goes on. If the warrior had been healed an extra 5% each time they would have lived with 100hp. Magically that 100hp the WAR needed to live is exactly equal to our living PLD's 80hp + shield oath mitigation! The point being that WAR/PLD eHP is exactly the same but WAR's require 5% more healing to maintain said eHP.

/removes magician's hat

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

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You're better at quick math than me; /sulk.

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Originally Posted by Zoomie

You're missing it again and its right there in your own math.

A 5000hp PLD takes a hit for 3000 (3000.8 = 2400) and has 2600hp left. PLD gets healed for 1000 which puts him at 3600 (72%hp)
A 6250hp WAR takes a hit for 3000 and has 3250hp left. WAR gets healed for 1000 (1000*1.20 = 1200) which puts him at 4450 (71%hp)

Lets repeat this as bosses don't stop at one hit!

Our now 3600hp PLD takes 2400dmg and has 1200 hp left and is then healed for 1000 leaving them at 2200 (44%hp)

Our now 4450hp WAR takes 3000dmg and has 1450 left and is then healed for 1200 leaving them at 2650 (42%hp)

Sadly the boss comes at us once again and now hits us for exactly 2650...

The PLD takes 2120 (2650*.8) and limps away with 80hp.

The WAR dies...
/removes magician's hat

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Why do you all put aside the fact that WAR is supposed to heal itself ? And besides, with the next update, it will mitigate some damage too, with average cooldowns shorter than PLD.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why do you all put aside the fact that WAR is supposed to heal itself ? And besides, with the next update, it will mitigate some damage too, with average cooldowns shorter than PLD.

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So I guess he finally concedes the point? Though he still won't just say he was wrong and apologize to Leiron. :p

People don't bring in self healing because PLD has a better answer to all said CDs. It isn't a factor in what was being discussed. You are right that Warrior will get a buff in 2.1 and be on par with PLD though. Trololol

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why do you all put aside the fact that WAR is supposed to heal itself ? And besides, with the next update, it will mitigate some damage too, with average cooldowns shorter than PLD.

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Mostly becaus ein said scenario, it can happen within 2.5 seconds. IE No time to react, and get your heal off. A tank who got sniped to 80 HP will still live long enough to receive the heal, which will be useless on a dead tank.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Why do you all put aside the fact that WAR is supposed to heal itself ? And besides, with the next update, it will mitigate some damage too, with average cooldowns shorter than PLD.

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WARs main ability to heal itself is inner beast. The heal portion of inner beast is getting heavily nerfed. After the change, it will be healing somewhere between 3-500 per hit depending on gear (maybe more if you waste damage buffs trying to buff it). Now, on the whole it's a good trade off in my mind, but it makes the WAR much less effective at healing himself. After the change, you might as well say the PLD is supposed to be healing himself with Cure, because that will be only slightly less effective.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

If a Paladin and a Warrior have the same base HP, same defense relevant stats and are using Shield Oath and Defiance, anything* that kills a Warrior will also kill a Paladin.

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They pretty much have the same eHP - the biggest variable for Warrior vs. Paladin is WAR gets to heal itself every so often; has a slightly lower DR for Sentinel vs Vengeance;equal DR if WAR times it right for Rampart vs Inner Beast & HP returns compensate for Vengeance/Sentinel imbalance? (intentional offset for HP returns??) then you'd have Thrill of Battle + Holmgag vs Hallowed Ground, higher enmity on the base of Defiance to compensate for tri/bi rotation on WAR and healing enmity generation; yardle fardle it's very balanced overall eHP is essentially the same.

So yeah I'll gut my post - WAR/PLD baseline are within 1% WAR can't be one-shotted unless PLD is one-shotted; that changes as the gap can grow over duration of battle but it'd be rare (? Maybe) - from a healing and healing enmity gen standpoint I think PLD has "ease-of-use" stamped all over.

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Originally Posted by AppleGrocer

Usually I don't agree with callous remarks like Leiron's, but yeah. Your wrong Reyhart.

Look over the math posted above again.

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You know, its really unintentional most of the time.
Whenever I speak, I sound a lot calmer and nicer =(

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Originally Posted by Traek

So I guess he finally concedes the point? Though he still won't just say he was wrong and apologize to Leiron. :p
People don't bring in self healing because PLD has a better answer to all said CDs. It isn't a factor in what was being discussed. You are right that Warrior will get a buff in 2.1 and be on par with PLD though. Trololol

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Since VoxInaBox's concern was "the class with the highest hp also have the same or near the same damage mitigation as the PLD", it is being discussed.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

WARs main ability to heal itself is inner beast. The heal portion of inner beast is getting heavily nerfed. After the change, it will be healing somewhere between 3-500 per hit depending on gear (maybe more if you waste damage buffs trying to buff it). Now, on the whole it's a good trade off in my mind, but it makes the WAR much less effective at healing himself. After the change, you might as well say the PLD is supposed to be healing himself with Cure, because that will be only slightly less effective.

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It makes the self haling less effective, but still TP-based and an additionnal effect on DPS, so far more useful than Cure. And it won't make you lose the healing buff of Defiance. And it will reduce damage taken.
In a fight like Titan, WAR will be able to lauch Inner Beast on pratically every Moutain Buster.

It's sad that we'll basically have two damage mitigation tank.

Wll, technically no matter the spec its a mitigation spec, but the way it mitigates can be done differently.

RIFT: Every time the rogue teleports, a shield is created that absorbs 10% of incoming damage on up to X amount of damage taken.

Warrior: Void knight takes 10% less damage.

Dark knight: While the DK is under this effect, 10% of all damage taken is absorbed as health.

Same mitigation, just done differently.

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Same mitigation, just done differently.

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Actually not. The Dark Knight would have to survive the full 100%, THEN get his 10% back, whereas the other two only have to survive 90% of the damage. Unless of course it just flavour text and the DK is only taking 90% of the damage anyway.

If you're going to be a Soak Tank, then you need to have a healing received bonus or lots of self heals, *and* (this is important) lots more effective health than a mitigation tank.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

It's sad that we'll basically have two damage mitigation tank.

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Tell me how you would make it so that Warrior's skills would scale with harder content without;

A) Increasing self heal amount to trivialize 4 man content
B) Making use of Wrath stacks