BLM Fire II incredibly lack luster

Tested again. Conditions: 252 natural Piety, no party buff, no non-GCDs used, no food buffs, no one else attacking. I attacked the three dummies in Dragonhead so all three were hit. I timed each test precisely 5 minutes, give or take a GCD.

Blizzard II spam
327 DPS
Total Overall Damage: 96,647
Damage Crit Percent: 17.34%

Fire III > Fire II X N > Blizzard III > Blizzard II or wait depending on MP > repeat:
347 DPS
Total Overall Damage: 102,045
Damage Crit Percent: 15.19%

As you can see, for sustained AoE, the Blizzard II method is definitively lower sustained DPS. The Fire II method crit less by chance and it still put out more total damage. However, since most/all AoE situations don't last 5 minutes, I did three smaller tests of one minute each for each method, which is much closer to a sac pull AoE situation or killing the T4 bugs.

Blizzard II

328 DPS
18,959 total damage

323 DPS
18,667 total damage

330 DPS
19,087 total damage

Fire III > Fire II X N > Blizzard III > Blizzard II with MP, wait without > repeat:

403 DPS
23,054 total damage

366 DPS
20,268 total damage

344 DPS
20,978 total damage

The DPS was slightly off since the timing wasn't set in stone on my begin and end time, being roughly a GCD apart. Sorry about that. Anyway, I think it's pretty safe to say that Blizzard II spam is not the highest DPS for AoE, but if anyone wants to take more accurate tests, be my guest.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faceroll

Incorrect
you're calculating the DPS
you're not calculating how fast the group dies.
the groups effective hp is 10,000, so they die faster.
:)

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Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated. If you had no indication of a sessions timeframe there would be no way to measure it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

like it was said, the break point for make the AoE be better is 4-5 monster, below is not worth...

but that another subject ^^

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Actually, 3 enemies is the break point for BLM, and I imagine most classes. I do roughly 280~ DPS on a single target and up to 350+ DPS on multiple, and that's not counting Double Flare™ to kill a trash mob from 30% or so.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sleigh

Actually, 3 enemies is the break point for BLM, and I imagine most classes. I do roughly 280~ DPS on a single target and up to 350+ DPS on multiple, and that's not counting Double Flare™ to kill a trash mob from 30% or so.

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The breakpoints of each class boil down to the amount of AoE DPS they can shell out.

I still believe based of my findings that 4 is the minimum for BLM with 5+ maximizing it.

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS. if by chance you can't do blizzard 2 (which you can on any thing that matters atm) then blizzard 3 can easily takes its place.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS.

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I was merely using their numbers to demonstrate what you are referring too.

I wouldn't mind seeing a decently geared BLM ST rotation DPS tbh.

Lets try this from a systematic potency based approach, and kinda chop it up into ST and AoE components...
So:
B3 = 1 gcd, 154 (potency) x 1 (target)
B1 = 1 gcd, 150 x 1
F3 = 1 gcd, 154 x 1
B2 = 1 gcd, 100 x N
F2 = 1.2 gcd, 180 x N
Flare = 1.6 gcd, 468 x N

Possible Rotations:
1. B3, Wait 1.5 ticks, F3, F2 x 4 - repeat
8.3 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 720 x N, ~ 37.1 x 1 + 86.7 x N

2. B3, Wait 1 tick, B1 or B2, F3, F2 x 4 - repeat
8.8 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 820 x N, ~ 35 x 1 + 93.2 x N in melee (B2) or 52 x 1 + 81.8 x N at range (B1)

3. B3, F3, F2 x 2 - repeat
4.4 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 360 x N, ~ 70 x 1 + 81.8 x N (this isn’t stable or particularly efficient)

4. B3, F3, F2 x 3, Flare (Transpose), Wait 1 tick - repeat
1.4+(1 or 1.4)+1.2x3+1.6+1 = ~8.6-9 gcd’s, 308 x 1 + 1008 x N, ~35.8 x 1 + 117.2 x N or 34.2 x 1 + 112 x N (no quick F3)

5. B2... 1 gcd, 100 x N... its 100 x N...

Analysis:

So first and foremost, you MUST get in 2 ticks of regen after B3. This is shown in rotation 3, where I only got 1 tick of regen, sometimes none 0.o and could only get off 2 F2's per rotation. However the total mana reserve does gradually increase, so eventually you can cast a 3rd F2... but then you dont have enough mana for B3... So rotation 3 is not that great...
Now this is where some of the arguments of this thread come in. Rotations 1/2 vs 4 vs 5.

R1 = 86.7 pot/gcd in aoe.
R2 in melee (B2 after tick) = 93.2
But R2 at range is down to 81.8... the same as the "less than ideal" R3.
Now R5, is really the single most stable rotation possible... but you MUST be in melee... R5 is 100 pot/gcd in aoe, 7% higher than R2 in melee... and both need you to be in melee.
And lastly R4... yes my order needs work =P... R4 is considered (by some) as the "proper" BLM aoe rotation. Yes, it does have a dead period right after Flare, but simply put, Flare in terms of pot/gcd is 2.9x stronger than B2 and 2.3x stronger than F2. This pushes it up above every other rotation in terms of DPS output, AND you never have to be in melee.

Conclusion:

For long fights with many high hp targets, R4 wins out. Especially when we start throwing in multi-Flare tricks, or have a bard playing Manasong... I "believe" that 2 ticks of Manasong is enough to cast Flare.
For shorter fights with lower hp targets, or more likely, towards the END of a fight where mobs are dying, R4 is better.
For Flare to go off, without Swiftcast, we need our target to survive for 4 seconds. If mobs are dropping, then there's a chance it'll die JUST before Flare would go off, and we wasted 1.6 gcds. At that point, it is better to run into the middle, if its safe, and begin spamming B2 to just finish things off.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xianghua

Its laughable about how you guys are arguing over this using the wrong AoE rotation as the base of the argument. the proper rotation for BLM AoE is bliz 3 > fire 3 > flare >bliz 2 >bliz 2 > fire 3 >flare. which has you doing AFIII flare every 7ish seconds if done correctly. other words putting out 3.6-6k+ dmg every 8-10secs depending on crits. I would really love to see a BLM be able to put out that much damage that fast using ST DPS. if by chance you can't do blizzard 2 (which you can on any thing that matters atm) then blizzard 3 can easily takes its place.

---

Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to utilize Fire 2 then pop Flare at >250mp?
Just trying to understand it since my BLM just recently hit 50.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Leiron

Out of curiosity, wouldn't it be better to utilize Fire 2 then pop Flare at >250mp?
Just trying to understand it since my BLM just recently hit 50.

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Mainly the speed of it. Takes around 8-10secs to cast it without fire 2. and 20-23 secs with fire 2. basically abusing the system. which allows you to cast 2 spells while under umbral ice 3. cutting flares cast time from 3.78 to 1.84. while giving it the power of Astral fire 3.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

I was merely using their numbers to demonstrate what you are referring too.

I wouldn't mind seeing a decently geared BLM ST rotation DPS tbh.

---

I think the confusion stems from the fact that all of the rotations in the OP are meant to compare aoe damage. Not single target. Fire 2 is an aoe spell, but it drains a fair amount of MP per use and it does significantly less damage without full astral fire buffs. So it requires a fair amount of single target spell use to use it consistently which is why it has 3 different rotations in the OP and blizzard 2 has one.

Nothing in the OP was ever supposed to compare AOE dps with single target dps.

So today I learned as a monk I can out AoE blm if there is 3-5 targets. A tank taught me that.

/fun

Yup and there is no point in aoe unless the mob is 5 or larger. So we should just send monks to speed run wp instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

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I cut out your math because it's irrelevant .

But if it makes you happy

Quote:

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320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

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I didn't debate that, I said you didn't need to do it since you were calculating the groups effective hp.
You devided it once, I didn't see a reason to multiply back up to it.

Quote:

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is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

---

Or you do.

Your original post states

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

I am starting to wonder wtf are people smoking these days?

Maximizing your DPS is all about managing your resource, sure I can burst my pants off, then what? OOM!!!!

Also, do people not understand the difference between AoE and Single target DPS?

Try getting 320+ DPS on single target with Blizzard II.....

Let us use the OP's numbers.

320 divide by 3 = 106.6 DPS per mob for Blizzard II.
260 divide by 1 = 260 DPS per mob for Fire/Blizz rotation combo rotation.

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For some reason, you neglected to read the actual rotation.
Everything in the OP was AOE
But somehow you got 260 to a single target.

Quote:

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Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated.

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No
DPS is damage per second.
You don't measure damage per second by death. You measure it by damage per second.

2 parses in this thread of f2 spam in comparison to b2 spam yielding opposite results.

A FC mate and myself spent hours working on AoE rotations for our group's blm's in order to determine what the best AoE rotation was going to be for turn 4. In turn, in 45 seconds we were able to put out 20-24k damage in a matter of 45 seconds with only 1-2k at a bare minimum being single target damage. And this was on 3 level 50 dummies in coerthas.

Guess what, it was a blizzard II combo rotation. Will i get into specifics to share the rotation with you? No. but a blizz 2 rotation is the BEST aoe rotation for a BLM if done properly. Also this was done with no +1 relic and mainly some vanya and darklight gear. NO AF2/Allagan pieces were used while testing this. If there are at least 3 mobs, you should be AoE as a blm, because as long as your tank isn't trash, he'll be able to hold threat, and the mobs will be dead far faster than from single target dps.

If you would like to learn a bit more about the rotation you can send me a tell or a mail in-game to Kyloki Odi'n of Hyperion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated. If you had no indication of a sessions timeframe there would be no way to measure it.

---

Here is what you seem to be missing (or trolling by pretending not to understand, I sincerely hope. Great troll if that the case, good job). It is about using the correct unit. 320 is damage per second, or dps, which I assume is measured in HP/s (hit point per second). When you divide it by 3 mobs, what you have is 320 damage per second per mob, which has unit of HP/(s x mob). So when you divide the total HP by this number, what you end up with is 93.75 mob seconds, not 93.75 seconds. It's not a very useful unit, so the number is kinda meaningless. If you want the total time taken in seconds, you will have to divide it by 3 mobs again, to arrive at ~ 30 s.

To use a less geeky way of explaining it, what you fail to take into account is that you do 100 dps per mob, but you are doing it to 3 mobs at the exact same time. Whereas the one doing single target can only do so one at a time. Here's a detailed example. To make it simpler, assume gcd is exactly 2.5 seconds. Player 1 only uses aoe damage, which is doing 100 aoe dps to each mob (250 dmg to each mob per cast). Player 2 only does single target, which is doing a 300 dps (750 dmg to a single target per cast). They each has to kill 3 mobs, each with 3000 HP. No miss, no crit, no randomness, no proc, never run out of mana, etc. Which one will finish first?

After 2.5 sec (1 gcd):

Player 1 has done 750 damage to mob 1

Mob 1: 2250/3000
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2 has done 250 damage to all 3 mobs

Mob 1: 2750/3000
Mob 2: 2750/3000
Mob 3: 2750/3000

After 10 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 2000/3000
Mob 2: 2000/3000
Mob 3: 2000/3000

After 25 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: dead
Mob 3: 1500/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 500/3000
Mob 2: 500/3000
Mob 3: 500/3000

I hope you see the pattern now. The total HP is 9000, and both players are doing 300 damage per second total. One is spread across 3 mobs, while the other focuses on one at a time. But that doesn't matter, in each case the total dps is still 300 damage per second, and the fight will be done after 30 seconds.

You dont just use fire 2, you use flare, why are you comparing fire 2 to blizzard 2, when the fire2 aoe rotation, includes flare, Blizzard 2, does not.

Works fine for me in AK, especially paired with Quelling Strikes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Darkstarz

You dont just use fire 2, you use flare, why are you comparing fire 2 to blizzard 2, when the fire2 aoe rotation, includes flare, Blizzard 2, does not.

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Actually a competent blizzard II rotation does use flare, gg, learn to play the class and maximize your damage before making yourself sound retarded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyloki

Actually a competent blizzard II rotation does use flare, gg, learn to play the class and maximize your damage before making yourself sound retarded.

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I'm fairly certain you wouldn't use flare while having umbral ice

Quote:

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Originally Posted by faceroll

I'm fairly certain you wouldn't use flare while having umbral ice

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You sure dont. If you do you're retarded. But you still use flare in a blizzard II rotation, that's why its called a rotation and not blizzard II spam.

You use flare after fire 3, it gets the speed bonus from UI3, and the damage bonus from AF3, casting a 260 potency (buffed what, 80%?) in 1.7 seconds. then transpose, wait half a sec, and ice 2 x2. so 2 of the GCD are the same as spamming ice 2, 1 is single target, then a spell with 160 more potency than ice 2. you actually have to pay remote attention, but even without taking into account the damage of fire 3, its 60 more potency

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kyloki

You sure dont. If you do you're retarded. But you still use flare in a blizzard II rotation, that's why its called a rotation and not blizzard II spam.

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The blizzard rotation is simply blizzard II.
You use Fire III to get out of the blizzard rotation.
Meaning you don't use Flare in your blizzard rotation.
No need to be hostile.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

You couldn\\'t be any more blind if you tried.

Keep looking though, I am sure you will get it eventually.

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No I'm with kevee on this, this is a flawed example because you are using aoe on a single target which makes no sense,
It does matter how many mobs are I'm the encounter, as I've always known it if a skills has 120 potency, against 3 mobs that's 360 potency vs 1 mob at 120 potency your doing more dps. Your example is so convoluted.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Devaking55

No I'm with kevee on this, this is a flawed example because you are using aoe on a single target which makes no sense,
It does matter how many mobs are I'm the encounter, as I've always known it if a skills has 120 potency, against 3 mobs that's 360 potency vs 1 mob at 120 potency your doing more dps. Your example is so convoluted.

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No, it is 120 potency per mob that you hit. Otherwise, if what you say where true, BLM would lay waste to WP speed runs because 10+ mobs would = 1200 potency.

If you hit one mob for 200dmg with Blizz II, you hit them all for roughly same damage depending on the roll of the dice, some might be off +/- .5 to 1%, but that's about it. You are not hitting each mob in the encounter of 10 for 1200 potency each. Also, this is not factoring in any resists, misses or stoneskin effects that any mob at any given time within that pack can reduce that potency.

It is really not a hard concept or equation to understand.

Most of you are misunderstanding the simplistic nature of how DPS is measured across a group of mobs and that it is an accumulative amount of DPS, not multiplicative.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

No, it is 120 potency per mob that you hit. Otherwise, if what you say where true, BLM would lay waste to WP speed runs because 10+ mobs would = 1200 potency.

If you hit one mob for 200dmg with Blizz II, you hit them all for roughly same damage depending on the roll of the dice, some might be off +/- .5 to 1%, but that's about it. You are not hitting each mob in the encounter of 10 for 1200 potency each. Also, this is not factoring in any resists, misses or stoneskin effects that any mob at any given time within that pack can reduce that potency.

It is really not a hard concept or equation to understand.

Most of you are misunderstanding the simplistic nature of how DPS is measured across a group of mobs and that it is an accumulative amount of DPS, not multiplicative.

---

Your posts in this thread so far seem pretty confusing, you're confusing a really simple matter. Check what ananda posted in the previous page.

Also, yes, 120 potency on 10 targets = 1200 potency. 120 x 10 = 1200 in total. If you are hitting each one of those 10 with a single attack, that is. Not sure where you are getting 1200 potency per mob from...that would be 12000 potency?

Using some real world examples, when I run WP my BLM is equipped with Sanguine Scepter HQ:
Average Fire I damage per mob = 490. Average Fire II damage per mob = 310. However, consider that Fire II is also an AoE attack, meaning it hits more than 1 target.

Assuming I hit 3 targets (and they had 5k health each), and that I have Astral Fire III up, and have limitless mana (this part is not real world but just to illustrate my point):
It would take me just over 10 Fire I spams to down each one. That's 25 seconds per mob (2.5s GCD x 10 attacks = 25). This gives me 75 seconds in total.
It would take me about about 16 Fire II spams to take down the entire group. That's about 48 seconds in total (3s GCD x 16 = 48. Fire II has a slightly longer cast time than Fire I).

Of course, single target spam wouldn't be that slow, since I will probably have some Firestarter procs in between. This also doesn't factor in crits, which can sway the results of one scenario. And finally, this doesn't include the situations where I run out of mana:
- On Fire I spam, I'd go Blizzard III, then Thunder II then Fire III and repeat Fire I/Firestarter spams
- On Fire II spam, I'd round off with Flare, then Transpose to Umbral Ice I, and use Blizzard II twice, then Fire III and back to Fire II spams, and round off with Flare again until dead. Also, don't forget Flare + Convert/Flare. Flare does roughly 830 damage, which is almost triple of what Fire II does for me.
- Fire II does cost more mana per cast, but the ending Flare usually rounds it off by doing double or triple what a single Fire II in Astral Fire III can do. Once again, not including an additional Convert/Flare.
- Single target Blizzard I does roughly the same damage as Blizzard II would on a single target, as I don't recall it gets a potency buff while under Umbral Ice.

I agree with you that there is a break point where it's more efficient to single target than AoE-ing, and I find this is usually at 2 mobs remaining, due to reasons stated above.

For those of you who still haven't figured it out, Taemek is a troll. No one that can keep from drowning in the shower is as dumb as he pretends to be. He used to only troll tank threads, he seems to have expanded to DPS threads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PessimiStick

For those of you who still haven't figured it out, Taemek is a troll. No one that can keep from drowning in the shower is as dumb as he pretends to be. He used to only troll tank threads, he seems to have expanded to DPS threads.

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^^ This. Don't even bother.

Perhaps I'm doing something horribly wrong, but every time I've parsed Blizzard II spam is always much lower dps than a Fire II rotation, albeit a Fire II rotation that includes Swiftcast Flares+Transpose/Convert.

My basic AoE rotation is (you can start with Blizz III if you want, I usually don't...):
Fire III->Fire II.....->Blizz III->Blizz II->Fire III-> (Raging Strikes)-> Fire II...-> (Swiftcast-> Flare->Convert)-> Blizz III->Blizz II->Fire III-> Fire II...-> (Swiftcast-> Flare->Transpose)-> Blizz II-> Fire III-> etc.

I like to get the extra tick that casting Blizz II allows in order to get enough mana to use one more Fire II before hitting my red line, though you could probably cut it after Convert and sneak in another Fire II before switching stances. And I know that some people say that using SC->Flare->Transpose is a dps loss, but every time I've parsed it provides a dps boost (worst case scenario is you transpose right after a mana tick was supposed to happen and idle for ~a GCD, best case scenario, it's essentially free dps with a slightly longer cast time on your next Fire III). Might be worth cutting, might not, still need to play around with it more. I just like to use Swiftcast for *something* when Convert is down.

I think that the Blizz III-> Fire III->Flare-> Transpose-> Blizz II X2-> Fire III->etc. rotation might be more dps then you're normal Fire II rotation, but it's just so finicky. Sometimes Flare doesnt get the cast speed buff from Umbral Ice III (sometimes Fire III doesn't even get it if you press it too fast), and you idle to a complete stop for ~15 seconds if you press transpose too early during the cast animation for Flare. Sure, if you can pull it off consistently, which isn't too terribly hard, you will probably gain a chunk of dps, but IMO it's not worth the trouble or the penalty for screwing up.

Keep in mind that I'm still testing stuff out and parsers aren't super reliable, but I figured another point of view might be useful to the community. Especially considering that other poster a page or two back that got opposite results compared to the OP's.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by juniglee

Also, yes, 120 potency on 10 targets = 1200 potency. 120 x 10 = 1200 in total. If you are hitting each one of those 10 with a single attack, that is. Not sure where you are getting 1200 potency per mob from...that would be 12000 potency?

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I suggest you re-read the post I replied too as to how I came about that value. I am not really sure how you are misunderstanding:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

No, it is 120 potency per mob that you hit. Otherwise, if what you say where true, BLM would lay waste to WP speed runs because 10+ mobs would = 1200 potency.

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Rest of your post is moot.

I honestly cannot believe that peoples reading comprehensions are so bad, unless people are knee jerk replying to the last post in here which is what I hope is more likely the issue.

Finally, again for clarification, AoE DPS is not multiplicative it is accumulative based simply upon amount of targets in the encounter. This is most peoples issue in here as has been pointed out several times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ananda

Here is what you seem to be missing (or trolling by pretending not to understand, I sincerely hope. Great troll if that the case, good job). It is about using the correct unit. 320 is damage per second, or dps, which I assume is measured in HP/s (hit point per second). When you divide it by 3 mobs, what you have is 320 damage per second per mob, which has unit of HP/(s x mob). So when you divide the total HP by this number, what you end up with is 93.75 mob seconds, not 93.75 seconds. It's not a very useful unit, so the number is kinda meaningless. If you want the total time taken in seconds, you will have to divide it by 3 mobs again, to arrive at ~ 30 s.

To use a less geeky way of explaining it, what you fail to take into account is that you do 100 dps per mob, but you are doing it to 3 mobs at the exact same time. Whereas the one doing single target can only do so one at a time. Here's a detailed example. To make it simpler, assume gcd is exactly 2.5 seconds. Player 1 only uses aoe damage, which is doing 100 aoe dps to each mob (250 dmg to each mob per cast). Player 2 only does single target, which is doing a 300 dps (750 dmg to a single target per cast). They each has to kill 3 mobs, each with 3000 HP. No miss, no crit, no randomness, no proc, never run out of mana, etc. Which one will finish first?

After 2.5 sec (1 gcd):

Player 1 has done 750 damage to mob 1

Mob 1: 2250/3000
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2 has done 250 damage to all 3 mobs

Mob 1: 2750/3000
Mob 2: 2750/3000
Mob 3: 2750/3000

After 10 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: 3000/3000
Mob 3: 3000/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 2000/3000
Mob 2: 2000/3000
Mob 3: 2000/3000

After 25 seconds

Player 1:

Mob 1: dead
Mob 2: dead
Mob 3: 1500/3000

Player 2:

Mob 1: 500/3000
Mob 2: 500/3000
Mob 3: 500/3000

I hope you see the pattern now. The total HP is 9000, and both players are doing 300 damage per second total. One is spread across 3 mobs, while the other focuses on one at a time. But that doesn't matter, in each case the total dps is still 300 damage per second, and the fight will be done after 30 seconds.

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The reasoning behind my posts have been taken a long way out of context because a lot of people misunderstand how DPS is calculated OR they seemingly are under the general impression that DPS is multiplicative when it is simply accumulative. My original reasoning behind posting in here was because people assumed that anymore then 2 mobs in an encounter warranted AoE spam, I merely pointed out the break point at which AoE DPS becomes efficient as per this post:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

This right here clearly tells us you don't understand. Let me spell this out, one more time.

AoE - 10'000hp divide 106.6 dps per mob = 93.8 seconds.

It matters not how many mobs are in an AoE encounter or HP. What matters here is that you know there is 10k hp and at 320 DPS AoE it equals 106.6dps per mob which means the encounter is lasting 93.8 seconds in total to kill ALL 3 MOBS!!!! You can put 10 mobs in here at 10k hp and guess what, the encounter still lasts 93.8 seconds.

There is 3 mobs in the encounter, you do not spilt their hp by a third because there is 3. 3 mobs at 10k hp each = 3 mobs with 10k hp. It does not equal 3 mobs with 3333hp. I don't know how you even come up with that.....320 AoE DPS does not equal 320 dps per mob in the encounter.


ST - **I must stress here these values in this thread is a very vague rotation used to accomplish this DPS value. ST would be more like in the 320+ range as per this post here**

10'000hp divide 350 dps per mob = 28.5 seconds.
x 2 mobs = 57 seconds
x 3 mobs = 85.5 seconds
x 4 mobs = 114 seconds = Break point at which AoEing becomes viable.

Now this is where you seem to be getting confused. AoEing is simply not viable until there is 5 mobs in an encounter because your single target DPS is simply greater then that of your single target AoE dps on the encounter and at anything under 4 mobs, you can kill them faster then AoEing can. Now I can already tell you are going to further misunderstand this.

If you can't wrap your head around something this trivial, I can't help you any further.

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Which I then used these posts to further support it was accumulative, not multiplicative:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Either you are trolling or you simply do not understand how DPS is applied across a group of mobs.

Again, for clarity, 320 AoE DPS does not equal 320 DPS per mob in the encounter.


Simple math implies:

Blizzard II hits each mob in an Encounter of 3 mobs for 200 damage each.

200 dmg x 3 mobs / 2.5 cast time = 240 dps encounter wide

240 dps / 3 mobs = 80 dps per mob x 2.5 cast time = 200 dmg per mob


Using the OP's findings:

320 dps / 3 mobs = 106.6 dps per mob x 2.5 cast time = 266 dmg per mob in the encounter.

266 dmg x 3 mobs / 2.5 cast time = 319.2 dps

This is indicative.


You do not measure anything but the time it takes to drop the mobs HP to zero.

You do not cut a mobs HP by a third simple because there is 3. 3 mobs with 10k HP is simply, 3 mobs with 10k hp. You already determined the DPS on one mob in the encounter and since you are hitting all 3 for 106.6dps which is equal to 320 AoE dps, the fight takes 98.3 seconds in total.

Your issue is, you seem to think you are doing 320 dps to each mob in the encounter when you are not. 320 AoE dps is an accumulative amount.

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&

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Please stoping cutting out my math which proves I am right.....it is very frustrating and secondly, you are missing the point.

320 dps across the collective which is 30k hp = 30'000hp collectively / 320 dps = 93.75 seconds. Again, I did not raise this point I was merely touching on it, however

is the same as:

320dps / 3 mobs = 106.6dps per mob = 10'000hp per mob / 106.6dps = 93.8 seconds.

This is calculating AoE damage.......some of you people really need to learn how to read....

Lastly, how fast a mob dies is how DPS is calculated. If you had no indication of a sessions timeframe there would be no way to measure it.

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The conversation simply went down hill from there if it not before. Sorry for all the links.

We are both on the same page in terms of understanding, you simply came in to this conversation on the wrong page in the thread.

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Exstal

Using AoE for 1~3 mobs is silly. :/

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I agree, as do many others.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

Snip.

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Ah, I think your later posts lead to confusion.
Your numbers are off though. I mean, who even uses a Blizz II spam as a real rotation?
Even the OP only used it as an example to critique Fire II.
Even on that point everyone who tested it after has said that Fire II performs better.

As far as I know the Blizzard II --> Blizzard II --> Fire III --> Flare --> Transpose is the highest dps.
So I don't think you can compare the aoe threshold according to the worst rotation we've got.

It seems to me that the problem is one of measures rather than arithmetic, potency or dps.
The post that you keep quoting in regards to the break point wherein BLM AoE dps takes over is misleading, or at least I think so. Yes, according to your numbers, if I'm doing 320 AoE dps on 3 mobs and 350 ST dps, of course it will just be faster to single target, there's no question about that. But, I find it hard to believe you're only pulling 320 AoE dps on those 3 mobs if you're capable of that kind of ST output. Hence people's reliance on potency rather than hard DPS numbers. Fire I is 150 potency with a 2.5 second base cast time, Fire II is 100 potency with a 3 second base cast time. With this in mind, create a scenario:

180 second encounter, 1 mob
Fire I:
180/2.5= 72 casts of fire 1
72*150=10800 potency applied to target from Fire I
Firestarter has a 40% proc rate, so out of 72 casts you will be able to cast 29 (rounded) Fire III's at 220 potency (72*.4=28.8), which equals 6336 additional potency assuming none of those are double procs.
72-29= 43 (since using a proc eats a GCD and therefore a fire cast)
6336+(43*150)= 12,786 potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds after Firestarter procs and assuming infinite mana for fire spam.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6000 Potency applied to target over the course of 180 seconds
No procs or anything, simple.

However, if we make it 3 mobs instead:
Fire I:
It's exactly the same, 12,786 potency. Nothing changes.

Fire II:
180/3= 60 casts of Fire II
60*100= 6,000 potency to a single target
But, believe it or not, the fact that Fire II hits multiple targets means that it's potency gets applied to ALL of them. If I hit 1 mob for 400 damage, and another for 400, and another for 400, guess what, I just did 1,200 damage.
6,000*3=18,000 potency applied over the course of 180 seconds.



Now let's assume you're more interested in kill speed rather than damage dealt over a set amount of time, which you should be. Let's assuming the shortest possible encounter that is theoretically most favorable to ST damage:

1 mob with less HP than the damage dealt by a Fire I, but more HP than the damage dealt by Fire II.
Fire I:
Mob is dead in 2.5 seconds

Fire II:
Mob is dead in 6 Seconds

Now with 3 mobs
Fire I:
Mob 1 is dead in 2.5 seconds
Mob 2 is dead in 5 seconds
Mob 3 is dead in 7.5 seconds

Fire II
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are alive after 3 seconds
Mobs 1,2, and 3 are dead after 6 seconds


The gap only gets bigger the more Fire I's it takes to bring down a mob. Anyway you slice it, the AoE break point is 3 mobs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Allyrion

Ah, I think your later posts lead to confusion.
Your numbers are off though. I mean, who even uses a Blizz II spam as a real rotation?
Even the OP only used it as an example to critique Fire II.
Even on that point everyone who tested it after has said that Fire II performs better.

As far as I know the Blizzard II --> Blizzard II --> Fire III --> Flare --> Transpose is the highest dps.
So I don't think you can compare the aoe threshold according to the worst rotation we've got.

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That rotation seems to be tied for highest dps.
B2 is 100, Flare is 468, so ignoring F3 for switching purposes we have:
B2 - B2 - F3 - Flare - Trans - *Tick* - repeat.
(100+100+260*1.8)/(1+1+1+1.6+1) = 668/5.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.
Then we have the 3 F2 - Flare - Transpose - *Tick* - B3 - F3 rotation, at 1026/8.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.

So the first rotation is "faster", and probably better for shorter fights. But the 2nd can be done entirely from range, hence safer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taemek

snip

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Whoa, that's really brilliant. I wrote that long post mostly because I was really curious how you are going to turn my post around to still manage to "misunderstand" it. Never thought of how you do it: claim I'm right, but then also re-post your calculations while claiming that your posts essentially mean the same thing as mine and are just taken out of context (despite the fact that they have different conclusion).

Well done, that was a trolling masterclass there :cool:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

That rotation seems to be tied for highest dps.
B2 is 100, Flare is 468, so ignoring F3 for switching purposes we have:
B2 - B2 - F3 - Flare - Trans - *Tick* - repeat.
(100+100+260*1.8)/(1+1+1+1.6+1) = 668/5.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.
Then we have the 3 F2 - Flare - Transpose - *Tick* - B3 - F3 rotation, at 1026/8.6 = 119.3 pot/gcd.

So the first rotation is "faster", and probably better for shorter fights. But the 2nd can be done entirely from range, hence safer.

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Flare is 1 GCD in the flare rotation, not 1.6. Potency for your calcs should be 133.6 p/GCD for the Flare-only rotation. I did the math for this in another thread previously. It's the highest AE DPS rotation we have if you don't get the F3 cast time bug a lot (which I think is latency related), and you don't mash transpose.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenji1134

snipp

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Are you taking into play that the 1st and well proven highest dps rotation we go all spells are cast under the global cool down. ?
when i am doing the b2, b2, fire3, flare , transpose, repeat. b2 takes 1.90 sec to cast while my gcd is at 2.38, fire 3 is at just a bit over a second and flare ends up just under 2 seconds due to double dipping. this means my dps is at every gcd and i can pull it all off even while waiting for a tic of mana before i transpose again.
Fire 2 is at 2.86 to cast. thus over the gcd if you are not swift casting flare thats 3.81 sec which is over the gcd, hardcasting blizzard 3 is at 3.33 seconds again over the gcd. I may not be understanding how you are doing your math. can you atleast clarify me that you are not calulating the 2nd rotation you mention at the gcd but at the time it takes to cast each spell since they are over the gcd the first rotation has to be calculated at the gcd since it is always under.

To clarify it takes 10 seconds to pull off the b2, b2, f3, flare, transpose , repeat. even waiting for the mana tic it remains about 12 seconds to be able to continue so in ideal situations you repeat ever 12 seconds. (adding a 2 second wait for mana tic)

Doing the other, taking in the factor you are double dipping f2 at the start (just to be fair since the above is taking in you just flared and transposed before starting. that would be 1.50 seconds for the 1st fire 2, thus 2.5 gcd, 3.00 x2 for the next 2 fire 2s, then 4 seconds for flare, transpose, wait a tic, 3.50 seconds for b3 then 1.75 seconds for f3, thus 2.50 for gcd. Thats 18.50 rounded to 20.50 (2 second for mana tic )seconds due to waiting for the mana tic.

Doing the first rotation you can do it 3 times totaling 36 seconds vs doing 2 times the other rotation in 41 seconds.

This is what I am trying to understand, did you calculate taking into consideration the time the spells will take over the gcd if they are longer to cast than the gcd or are you assuming the 2nd rotation dps is based on the gcds excluding the extra time added by longer casting spells.?