[Dev1058] Hate Meter / Pros / Cons / Open Discussion

I'm honestly hoping for some WoW-like bosses (setting the bar high). Some of those bosses just could not be beat for weeks/months until people got their gear/act together.

This of course, is only for raid content. I don't expect that level of difficulty from Lv30 stuff although I am totally looking forward to a challenge.

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Originally Posted by Demacia

Give one of the classes a "Libra" skill for telling hate percentages. Rather not just have it as part of the UI.

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While I find that an interesting suggestion, it looks like hate meters are already being implemented.

If you don't like. Don't use them. Along with all the other progressive changes that are coming to the game.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

If you don't like. Don't use them. Along with all the other progressive changes that are coming to the game.

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Like other MMOs, this works till certain circles make it a "requirement or gtfo" that plagues every MMO eventually.

If you're good at playing your class you don't need any of it. I've been in those guilds that say "get this or leave" without having those addons (didn't like the bloatware). I performed fine.

I'm more interested by the simplification of the hate algorithms.
I don't really care about if hate is displayed or not, this is not what will change the battle dynamics. I guess it will make people learn their role sooner within a given class but I really don't see how it makes the game easier, you still need to manage that hate regardless of if it's displayed or not.

I mean, does displaying HP bars make healers job easy-mode? It's a question of balancing actions, managing mp and timing, not a question of calculating how much damage every single player got from enemy attacks.

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Originally Posted by northernsky

I'm more interested by the simplification of the hate algorithms.
I don't really care about if hate is displayed or not, this is not what will change the battle dynamics. I guess it will make people learn their role sooner within a given class but I really don't see how it makes the game easier, you still need to manage that hate regardless of if it's displayed or not.

I mean, does displaying HP bars make healers job easy-mode? It's a question of balancing actions, managing mp and timing, not a question of calculating how much damage every single player got from enemy attacks.

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Thank you sir. Thats what we really should be excited about.

Hate in this game, while better than at launch, is still completely fucked. Hit a mob for 300 and CON hits it for 40 and pulls hate. Something isn't right.

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Originally Posted by Kurokikaze

Nothing wrong with a hate meter. From a balance/dev perspective it makes balancing abilities/spells enmity that much easier going forward.

If you think this is going to make things easier than they are you're sorely mistaken. Unless you really really suck... you don't lose hate on current HNMs. Thats just how it goes.

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Exactly. Right now the dev mindset is "well, we've managed to fix that nasty mess that was battle algorithms, and we're giving the players the knowledge they'll need to progress, now let's get ready to up the ante."

I'd expect combat to get much trickier with the addition of a hate meter and auto-attack. The devs aren't stupid.

This all falls in line with Yoshi's first few statements about making the game rules easy to understand, and easy to understand /= easy. If anything, it let's them make things harder.

When things start heating up with fierce battles sometimes it get's distracting and you can loose count on who has hate. I think the idea of showing hate is awesome and I'm really glad they are doing it. I would suggest being able to turn it off for those persons who would rather add up hate in their head though.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Exactly. Right now the dev mindset is "well, we've managed to fix that nasty mess that was battle algorithms, and we're giving the players the knowledge they'll need to progress, now let's get ready to up the ante."

I'd expect combat to get much trickier with the addition of a hate meter and auto-attack. The devs aren't stupid.

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Thank you for looking at this in a proactive way. The devs will not start making it so that tanks will have to keep a close eye on their threat instead of how it is now where passed a certain point its almost impossible to lose hate.

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Originally Posted by Malakhim

Exactly. Right now the dev mindset is "well, we've managed to fix that nasty mess that was battle algorithms, and we're giving the players the knowledge they'll need to progress, now let's get ready to up the ante."

I'd expect combat to get much trickier with the addition of a hate meter and auto-attack. The devs aren't stupid.

This all falls in line with Yoshi's first few statements about making the game rules easy to understand, and easy to understand /= easy. If anything, it let's them make things harder.

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You hit the nail on the head, this false assumption is the reason for so many useless fights around here.

Some people already seem to have forgotten the very first point of the "Battle reform blueprint", which is the reason why all of this overhaul has been undertaken:

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Creating a battle system that fosters skillful play.

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pretty much the opposite of "easy-mode"

it just feels like it will take a some immersion out of the game, like when they displayed aggressive mobs and exact levels, kind of like the windower in ffxi that displayed distance from your target. Why not pay attention to whats happening in game to gauge these things? I know I can just turn it off but with everybody talking about their hate meters and stuff it still kind of distances us from the world.

I'm not against change I'm just worried about how far it's gonna ultimately go. Still, I'm waiting for the patches to see how it feels.

I just hope the next patch isn't gonna come with a tool tip pop-up that suggests to the player what skill to use next in combat.

After all the updates we have had, i feel safe to say this.

LOLtoggle.

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Originally Posted by Magiksmurf

Dude you know i'm right we will need a hate meter only when there's gonna be real strategic battles with mobs that can pretty much one shot or do 90% damage in one hit to any one in the party except the tank. For now... ummm NO we don't need it.

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Which is what they said they were doing...

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To elaborate, we are aiming to address issues such as the following:
•Victories coming with little reliance on skillful play.
•Lack of information needed for skillful play.
•No sense of accomplishment even with skillful play.
In light of the above, our objective is to implement a battle system that rewards player effort and innovation in such areas as equipment, hunting grounds, and party structure.

Lastly, in conceiving these changes, we have kept one fact close to heart: simply making enemies stronger does not equate to an environment that fosters and rewards skillful play.

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maybe read the infomartions given to you before making unecessary comments.

i think the real new application of the hate meter will be more for stealing hate than not getting it. Stealing hate is a very useful concept. you can take hate for a few hits, or when you have certain buffs, and others can take it back. an archer could go over hate and bind in tough situation, then tank could get it back before bind wears.

That said, they said it will be a shown as a % of whoevers tanking agro, so you wont really have exact numbers, you will still have to have a good idea of how much hate they have, 80% of the hate of a glad or 80% of the hate of the mage are two totally different numbers, also that % should fluctuate a lot so it wont be THAT safe

Instead of a number % or whatever they decide to go with, they should add a graphical display to show who has hate, to make it simple while also keeping you guessing if you should do a certain ability. As much as it pains me to say, WoW and Rift have this, and it works out well. I'm not saying to make it the game like WoW, I don't want that, but I think the graphical display on the player's name could work out well. I suppose it'd have to be different, considering we don't have player portraits, but I'm sure the Developers could figure out something. A number on a player or a % just feels a bit too easy

I am for both hate and DPS meters, generally they help people to play better and watch what they are doing instead of guessing.

It also helps define if you have someone slacking in the party, perhaps people who are poor players would be against it but if you are a competent player then you have nothing to worry about.

screw dps meters, hopefully classes bring more to a fight than just hate or dps

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Originally Posted by Jinko

I am for both hate and DPS meters, generally they help people to play better and watch what they are doing instead of guessing.

It also helps define if you have someone slacking in the party, perhaps people who are poor players would be against it but if you are a competent player then you have nothing to worry about.

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DPS is unnecessary as it is. They already display your damage. It's not like hate, which no one knows for sure. It should be easy for anyone to notice what kind of damage everyone is doing

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Originally Posted by Jynx

Personally I'd rather just figure it out myself, but I'm not against the idea of the hate meter it lets newer players know if they can let loose some more or need to slow down.

In the long run you will still to know hate management because you don't want to go over the threshold, the skilled players will still shine out from the less skilled ones who think having 20% hate means they can unleash a sidewinder when the tank only had 23% hate.

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Read again. The percentage displayed will be a percentage of enmity of the person who currently has hate. So in your example, assuming the tank is holding hate, the percentage displayed will work out to 87%. 20% will always mean you have room to play with your powerful attacks ( unless it's the white mage being beaten on at the time )

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Originally Posted by JayvirDeforte

DPS is unnecessary as it is. They already display your damage. It's not like hate, which no one knows for sure. It should be easy for anyone to notice what kind of damage everyone is doing

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Well that's besides the point, at end game as a mage I like to know I am the one doing the most damage in a fight lol. (competitive DPS and HPS scoring in WoW was a great thing IMO)

We can already get DPS from parsing the log files anyways.

I wasn't really asking for it, just stating that I am in favour of it.

I always thought that by knowing the Level of the mob or weather it aggros would make this game easy mode, I hated it passionately, but its grown on me and I dont mind it, I kind of prefer it tbh being able to tab a mob to know rather than just looking up online (cuse more often than not im not going to chance it).

And here we have the same situation of knowing something and it being given to us, normally i'd be like "wtf!!" but I kind of like it and I will no doubt get used to it. Some of my friends are a bit stubborn and i'll be like dude you're getting way to much hate and he will be like NAW DUDE AM FINE but this will clearly show. I will also know which skills generate a spike of hate and that its not just a case of tank being bad or similar, as I will see the adjustment. So I like this (as a mage it helps keep me from eating dirt).

Having a hate meter doesn't mean you don't have to learn your job, for a couple reasons. For starters they said they are going to make each class/job have a specific type of abilities that only they can use and some you can still equip on other classes. Secondly even though it says you have 50% hate if you don't know how much enmity your ability can produce (and if it changes by crit damage or not) you will be in the same boat as before. You pull agro you die because you threw a nuke out there at the wrong time, personally I love a hate meter but they just need an option to turn it off. If you played WoW or any other MMO with a fully customizable UI (which they are bringing to this game down the road) most people use a hate meter, and they did say atm you can only see your own hate and thinking about being able to see others. So they may not add that and you could settle with compromise.

You say easy mode by only having to watch numbers but it is exactly the same, whether you see a % or not you based it on knowledge of knowing what abilities and spells cause a certain amount of enmity and you still need to know that before you spam certain abilities. Also they said enmity will be adjusted to 1 for 1? meaning 1 point of damage = 1 point of enmity? or 1 attack = a set amount of enmity? Also we don't know the formula yet for conversion of non attack buffs or other spells.

What about this suggestion: Make it optional; allow the party leader to decide whether you want to be number-aided, or you want to fly blind; then adjust SP, XP and rewards accordingly. It might be something decided either at the entrance of the dungeon, or at the time of the establishment of the party.

If SE wanted, this approach could be extended to several of the aids and "dumbing-down additions" the game might include in the future, for the benefit of the casual player.

It might sound like another LOLtoggle, but to my mind, it seems to make sense.

R

I rather decide on my own and not have someone make the decision for me if I have a hate meter. If I am not party leader I don't want this dbag to tell me I can't use a % meter, especially like I said when customizable UI comes out you will be able to have it on if you want to or not, SE is compromising by adding this I think because they know it will be beneficial to many players.

Just difference of opinion I guess.

I just don't understand when did more information became less challenge.
In my opinion, it even becomes more challenging cuz being able to see the hate will make you be aware of your actions and strategize.

Oddly, the hate meter won't impact tanks all that much.

If I'm holding hate throughout the fight, I'll be showing 100% the whole time, and will still need to observe what my party members are doing to get a feel for where I'm at in relation. What it does do, is allow the melee and mages to control their aggression levels. Which means, things aren't easier for hate-management specialists, but are easier for those who don't spend all their party time on accumulating enmity.

The best thing about this.... DD's can no longer claim that they don't know how they keep getting hate and blame the tank. The whole party can see hate and dd's will have to adjust what they are doing accordingly. Same with mages; this will enable everyone to play more proficiently with out the blame going around.

Bring it on. being able to tell at a glance if you should step up or tone down your actions to ride the hate line is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by Lerris

Oddly, the hate meter won't impact tanks all that much.

If I'm holding hate throughout the fight, I'll be showing 100% the whole time, and will still need to observe what my party members are doing to get a feel for where I'm at in relation. What it does do, is allow the melee and mages to control their aggression levels. Which means, things aren't easier for hate-management specialists, but are easier for those who don't spend all their party time on accumulating enmity.

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Unless everyone is stood around doing nothing you wont have 100% lol Its impossible really unless you can go into negative enmity which i doubt.

Whm's can see who has hate and prepare.

DD's can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

Tanks can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

This enables the entire party to work together as a team for the best benefit of the party.
This is a good thing.

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Originally Posted by viion

Unless everyone is stood around doing nothing you wont have 100% lol Its impossible really unless you can go into negative enmity which i doubt.

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you will have 100% because they said you will see a % in comparison to who has hate, this means if you have hate, you really wont be getting any new info. as long as you are being targeted you are the one who your hate is being compared to

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Originally Posted by Gracious

Whm's can see who has hate and prepare.

DD's can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

Tanks can adjust what they are doing through this new tool.

This enables the entire party to work together as a team for the best benefit of the party.
This is a good thing.

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they didnt say you could see other peoples hate yet, whm can only see how much hate they have in comparison to the person with agro. Of course people could call out their hate, but thats a different story

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Originally Posted by viion

Unless everyone is stood around doing nothing you wont have 100% lol Its impossible really unless you can go into negative enmity which i doubt.

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Originally Posted by Physic

you will have 100% because they said you will see a % in comparison to who has hate, this means if you have hate, you really wont be getting any new info. as long as you are being targeted you are the one who your hate is being compared to

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The relevant section from Matsui's post:

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Furthermore, a player’s enmity will be made constantly visible as a percentage of that of the party member being attacked. A feature whereby players may examine hate values for all party members is also under consideration for a future update.

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Originally Posted by Physic

they didnt say you could see other peoples hate yet, whm can only see how much hate they have in comparison to the person with agro. Of course people could call out their hate, but thats a different story

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Interesting. I like it better if the entire party could see each other's hate ratio's. Speaking as a healer in 11 doing endgame activities where I was the only healer in a group of 18, I was really shouting for joy when I saw this. Things go so fast endgaming I can see where this could be sooo useful. I guess if you could only see your own hate then you could adjust yourself down as needed. I would like it alot better if we could see everyone's hate ratio though.

Personally, it sounds like they are adding hate debugging and leaving it on to see the algorithm work lol

It definitely will be helpful in explaining how my lancer can steal hate from a gladiator or marauder higher level than me when I'm just buffing....

It's an insight on the hate algorithm and will make it easier for people to figure out the math of it. If they don't totally remove it at some point, they'll make it like /hpbar and allow it it to be hidden.

Wheee. Lots of responses.

Okay, lots of responses, and now that I am more awake, I suppose I should address some points.

It seems to me after reading the points that people have made that you guys are right; it isn't about easy-mode v. challenging. I will concede that having a hate display simply moves the line of efficiency and narrows the range at which you can effectively operate your skills by giving you more information.

I guess, now, it looks more like an issues of tactical combat v. strategic combat, and both have there merits and flaws, and honestly, I like both. Just not sure which I like more. :/

I still have some concerns though. First, it does level the playing field. That is, someone who doesn't know their job well can perform better because they have more information. This is great particularly for casual players who simply do not have the time that say I have (all day every day) to learn their job. I still have an issue with it in that it creates a false sense of ability that could bite you in arse as you move towards harder and harder content.

As an addendum to the Pro's on my list, by simplifying the algorithms so much and by displaying hate, it gives SE a much narrower range to work with in terms of fine-tuning the combat. Because there is a narrower range of efficiently, they can more easily monitor battles, which will, ultimately, result in better combat.

This is good if... they actually do follow up on the idea that a boss with more HP does not a harder battle make. For now, I will give SE the benefit of the doubt and assume they will add variety to combat.

All that said, I still can't get over the simple idea that when it boils down to it, we already have a hate meter. If I'm playing my lancer, and I poke a mob, and it turns and looks at me, I just took hate. I really like that if I miss-judge my hate or a play my job poorly, there is a consequence to my action, and I really like that it is a surprise when I do. There will still be that sense to some degree with a hate meter, but to me, it seems that a hate monitor cheapens that. I also really like the idea of tighter, cleaner, smoother combat, because lets face it, it is really f$#!ng satisfying when you win a hard battle and you nail it perfectly. Hate meter encourages it.

So. Still on the fence about the issue. Thank you all for commenting on both sides; definitely some points I would not have considered. Thank you all who didn't make it personal, too, its nice to actual discourse on the subject.

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All that said, I still can't get over the simple idea that when it boils down to it, we already have a hate meter. If I'm playing my lancer, and I poke a mob, and it turns and looks at me, I just took hate. I really like that if I miss-judge my hate or a play my job poorly, there is a consequence to my action, and I really like that it is a surprise when I do. There will still be that sense to some degree with a hate meter, but to me, it seems that a hate monitor cheapens that. I also really like the idea of tighter, cleaner, smoother combat, because lets face it, it is really f$#!ng satisfying when you win a hard battle and you nail it perfectly. Hate meter encourages it.

So. Still on the fence about the issue. Thank you all for commenting on both sides; definitely some points I would not have considered. Thank you all who didn't make it personal, too, its nice to actual discourse on the subject.

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You guys talk about hate meters like DDs care, they love dipping in the hate sauce, how many times did a blm laugh as they got hit after a insane magic burst. Ever seen the berserk sidewinder barrage hit hit sidewinder ranger? As a pug i can give a dam if if i get hate, in fact i would be trying to take hate sometimes
light strike, discerning eye heavy heavy featherfoot raging invigorate, maybe simian, if i get the evade, blood weapon victimize boom.
second wind, diversion, ok man get it off me now.... hahah ha aah ahah fun times.

I am going to die a lot. When spell potency is fixed, I am going to make up for all the damage that should have been! I am not going to hold back. Stop telling me how to live my life! Get off my back!

In all seriousness I will listen to anyone who tells me to slow down damage, but if no one tells me I expect to be face floor on the ground dead for how much spell-slinging I am going to do. I accept my deaths for being my fault!

There will of course be a difference in player skill levels. Since we're seeing percentages rather than absolute enmity values, 20% doesn't always mean the same thing. In the first seconds of a fight, it would probably be a bad idea to unleash your biggest attack at 20% enmity because the tank hasn't built a lot up yet. In the later stages of the fight, 20% probably means it's time to unleash everything you've got.
We'll quickly learn what damage our weaponskills do in relation to our basic attacks in order to convert that percentage to a number ( if a weaponskill does quadruple what a basic attack does and a basic attack increases your enmity by 2%, you can expect the weaponskill to increase your enmity by 8-10% at that time).

And when a mob has a hate-reset move...

The meter doesn't remove the need to pay attention. It does prevent those using unauthorized add-ons from gaining that particular advantage over those who don't.