armory system useless? Mythology Cap

IDK why people keeping thinking that relic is BIS for every slot for every job. Relic gear is not the end all to gear and your done that's what Allagan gear is for.

I'm so glad people on my server are smart enough to know better than this nonsense. Leveling a 2nd char to get around myth caps is pointless.

My bard is almost fully geared in iLVL 90 gear and my DRG now has a mix of Darklight/Allagan which is sufficient to run coil with. If Crystal Tower had been out in time this would have become moot as iLVL 80 gear would be fine to run Coil with, as this content is not far from coming out they will likely not be removing the cap.

Being able to spam WP/AK SHOULD NOT be able to get you more or less the best gear obtainable in the game with ease. The dungeons are easy as hell and just because someone has infinite free time they would be able to gear up to max without showing a single measure of skill. Some relic pieces are BIS and some Allagan pieces are, use myth to buy the pieces that are best and run coil to get the others.

If I level a 2nd character I will level 1 mining, and 1 botany so I can leave my miner and botaner logged in where I am farming stuff and have triple the inventory space, other than that I see no point. But I do agree that the cap on myth needs adjusted.

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

so basically it's: raise the myth cap so we can get more gear for our main and start getting gear for our alts... until crystal tower then you can lower it again because, you know, crystal tower is a place to get gear for your main and alts...

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Not like that, no. What's being asked for is one cap per class, instead of one cap for all classes to share. I.e. you can grind out 300 myths for your PLD and when you're done there you could also grind out 300 for your DRG. However, you can't spend all 600 on your PLD, the points you got on your DRG can only be used by the DRG and so on.

The rest of the post is not targeted at you directly.

I honestly don't see why people are opposed to the idea of having one myth cap per class. If someone wants to play more than you and gear up another class too, what's negative about that? If I were to reveal to you that I, as we speak, am grinding mythology stones on a separate alt character, even though I already capped my 300 stones on my main, your concern would probably be very mild. If I ask to do the grind on my main character's alt class instead, it's suddenly DEFCON 1. I just can't see why, all I see is "Darklight is enough".

Currently, someone might do their weekly coil run, cap their 300 myth tomes, and then log out for the week because progression wise, that's all they are allowed (this is unrelated, but since you're going to bring it up - they already have their crafts at 50, they have smelled all the flowers in the Black Shroud and they set aside some gil for a pretty house in 2.1. Simply put, don't avoid the subject by suggesting other things one could do, this discussion is about whether the shared cap is good or bad - nothing else).

To me, it's like you'd do your valor grind in WoW, do the one raid, and after that, you'd have to stop playing for the week because you already have your 5-man dungeon sets on your alts, and alts can't progress further once you picked a class to raid on. Had it been like that, I can safely say I had paid Blizzard considerably less over the years.

If people could also spend time working on alts in FFXIV, they'd have so much more content to occupy themselves with, even if it's very artificial and grindy. It's not extra power in any way, it's literally doing the exact same thing for another class for those that want to. You would have the same 300 myth limitation as your main, and the points can't be spent on any other class than the one that earnt them. Simply give the alts equal footing to the main class you play. Like it's been said before, you can already roll another character for this purpose - but with this awesome armory system in place, why not make full use of it?

EDIT: I should add I'm nowhere near this point myself yet. I still have ways to entertain myself immensly in the game, I'm just thinking about what I'd like the game to be long term as far as alts are concerned.

the iLvL gear you get from Myth is 90. ILvL gear you will get from Crystal Tower is iLvL 80. So if you theoretically got myth per class you would skip CT and just do the content which gives you the best gear for the slots. Why wait for drops from CT when you can just grind WP with all your classes and be done for the week. You will have all the gear iLvL 90 and then be "bored" till next expansion.

(there is hyperbole there but yeah)

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

the iLvL gear you get from Myth is 90. ILvL gear you will get from Crystal Tower is iLvL 80. So if you theoretically got myth per class you would skip CT and just do the content which gives you the best gear for the slots. Why wait for drops from CT when you can just grind WP with all your classes and be done for the week. You will have all the gear iLvL 90 and then be "bored" till next expansion.

(there is hyperbole there but yeah)

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Nothing you said there specifically concerns alts though.

If I skip CT, get all my iLvL 90 gear and get "bored" until the next expansion - why is it worse for you, the game or the universe at large if I do the grind twice or more before I leave?

hahahhahaha you think I care if you stay or leave? I don't give a tiny rat's ass. But, I was trying to give you an explanation on why it may be that the developers and the producer wanted the cap. You don't have everything so fast so you might stay a little bit longer.

But, yeah if you want to get bored I don't give a ...

It's astounding to see the level of incomprehension on this topic. :(

• The cap is in place to make sure you need a certain amount of time (IRL) to gear your character. This is pretty much obligated in all vertical-progression MMORPG's because otherwise some people would grind too fast.
  So it will not go away, maybe be alleviated (they said the cap would remain the same but pieces of gear would become cheaper by the way). Developers refer to such mechanisms as "protecting the players from themselves" (doesn't always turn out as well as they expect, but nonetheless it's required to place limits). Also, from a business point of view, you need to make sure you have enough time to make new content before players finish the current content: hence why caps. They won't go away, unless some other ways are found to create content faster (such as player-generated content, or random-generated content, stuff like that).
• However, that this cap applies to the CHARACTER and not to a specific JOB means that, as many have stated, it renders the armory system moot, useless, it gimps your character.
  Which is why people will tend to level up rerolls (other characters) to play another job, instead of using the armory system and leveling all jobs on 1 char.
• On top of that, further aggravating the inefficiency of the armory system, is the fact that you cannot customise your job: once you've got a sub-class at 34 and another at 26, to get those spells, you're done for the job in question.
  There is absolutely no use to leveling a THM, an ARC or a PGL when you play a PLD for instance: the job design is absolutely rigid (no talents, no templates, no nothing makes two BLM any different from one another, respectively for all other jobs). Therefore, to have a fully functional job, all you need is: 1 class at level 50, another at ~34 and a third at ~26. Period. Everything else is useless.

What's hard to understand about that?… :confused:

Consequently, the only solution to make the armory system relevant is to make the cap PER JOB and not GLOBAL TO A CHARACTER. Short of that, using the armory system equates being OK with having gimped jobs: not a great incentive. Actually more of a deterrent, should all the history of video games mean anything.

People need incentives to play a game, and for a majority of players, that incentive is "power". In this game, as in most vertical progression MMO's, "power" = "gear". If you get off on something else, fine for you, but you can't deny that the power incentive is a very valid choice, actually the dominant taste in the field of video games: people want powerful characters, they want to beat the game as much as possible, they want to beat records (power, time, efficiency, whatever the game is). It's very human, too, we actually built a civilisation over dozens of centuries because we wanted to GET BETTER at everything we do. To each his own tastes, but diversity and a never-ending quest for power is what made (makes?) us great as a species. Be it in a petty video game or to send a man on the moon, you just can't deny that it's human nature in all its splendour.

Finally, to address the notion that "if the cap was per job, I would be forced to play a specific job in order to gear said job". Well… ^^; … you're entitled to your own tastes, but doesn't that seem more logical to you? That you need to use a specific "asset" (here, a specific job) in order to be more powerful/efficient with the asset in question? How is it logical that your tanking gets better when all you do is use a healer?

Think of it this way: I don't get better at maths when I read history books, I get better at maths when I actually learn and do maths.

Of course it's nice, it's comfortable to be able to gear all jobs only playing one, but it's certainly less logical than having to use a given "thing" to get better at that very "thing". It would be great to get better at maths when reading history books as well, but it just doesn't work that way. And let's not even talk about "player skill" when you gear up a tank by playing another role entirely. It's just how MMO's work: I play a tank, my tanking character gets "better" (geared), and I as a player get "better" (skilled) at tanking. I play a healer, my… oh you get it.

The problem with raising the cap is that it will make it more of a chore than it already is. As it is, you have the feeling of "I have to get 10 WP runs done this week" every week. You really want that feeling to turn into 15? 20? Either get rid of the cap entirely, which means people will have full AF2 on multiple classes within days. Or keep the cap reasonable(which it is) so the feeling of "I need to do x number of runs" doesn't make x a terrible number.

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Originally Posted by ashikenshin

hahahhahaha you think I care if you stay or leave? I don't give a tiny rat's ass. But, I was trying to give you an explanation on why it may be that the developers and the producer wanted the cap. You don't have everything so fast so you might stay a little bit longer.

But, yeah if you want to get bored I don't give a ...

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Ah, misunderstanding. I'm not asking for the cap to go away and I'm not asking to get a larger cap each week, I'm completely OK with the cap and want it the way it is. Just want to see one separate cap for each of my classes.

I do not like the idea of job-specific tomes. Why? Because I like the freedom of playing whatever job I want. Say I want to run a dungeon with 3 friends and they need me to be healer (maybe because my healing jobs are pretty maxed out on gear), but I'm earning tomes for a job I don't really need them on. I think that placing a job-specific tome reward system in place really limits you. I want to be able to play whatever job I want and spend my tomes however I want. You guys think that this will help make the armory system "not useless" but it in fact does the opposite. For me it will make the armory system to restrictive. I like how myth tomes are handled. I do not feel that it needs to be changed at all.

The myth cap does not make the armory system useless at all, it just slows the acquisition of gear. It creates a sense of progress and adds balance to the whole progression scale (even if it is some false sense of progress imposed by a restriction). I much prefer this restriction than a restriction of having to play a specific job just to earn tomes for that job. no. no. no. no. I really hope SE does NOT put this in place. It may work in a game where you can only play one job/class per character, but in a game with an armory system it strips away freedom and makes party play more restrictive and limited. No thanks.

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Originally Posted by Pooky

The problem with raising the cap is that it will make it more of a chore than it already is. As it is, you have the feeling of "I have to get 10 WP runs done this week" every week. You really want that feeling to turn into 15? 20? Either get rid of the cap entirely, which means people will have full AF2 on multiple classes within days. Or keep the cap reasonable(which it is) so the feeling of "I need to do x number of runs" doesn't make x a terrible number.

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Raising the cap isn't a solution to the OP's complain as it will not change the fact that you will still have to prioritise a "main" job; it would only add more grind for everyone actually, instead of just the people who want to gear several jobs. It's by no means a solution. The only solution would be a cap per job:

—> those who only want to gear one job would still have only 300 pts to make per week

—> those who want to gear several job could earn their 300 pts for their main, then another 300 pts for another job, and so on.

If you do not understand the complaints about the armory system and tome caps, please refer to this thread here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ory-job-system.

Also, let's please keep the discussion for this issue all in a single thread(preferably the one linked) so it's easier for SE to see all our complaints about this issue in a single thread. It's how the japanese do it, more organized and easier to read.

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Originally Posted by NotoriousZow

The myth cap does not make the armory system useless at all, it just slows the acquisition of gear. It creates a sense of progress and adds balance to the whole progression scale (even if it is some false sense of progress imposed by a restriction). I much prefer this restriction than a restriction of having to play a specific job just to earn tomes for that job. no. no. no. no. I really hope SE does NOT put this in place. It may work in a game where you can only play one job/class per character, but in a game with an armory system it strips away freedom and makes party play more restrictive and limited. No thanks.

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It's not the cap itself that makes the armory system useless; it's that the cap applies to your whole character and not to each of your character's jobs.

As for your previous commentary, here's what I said just above it:

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Finally, to address the notion that "if the cap was per job, I would be forced to play a specific job in order to gear said job". Well… ^^; … you're entitled to your own tastes, but doesn't that seem more logical to you? That you need to use a specific "asset" (here, a specific job) in order to be more powerful/efficient with the asset in question? How is it logical that your tanking gets better when all you do is use a healer?

Think of it this way: I don't get better at maths when I read history books, I get better at maths when I actually learn and do maths.

Of course it's nice, it's comfortable to be able to gear all jobs only playing one, but it's certainly less logical than having to use a given "thing" to get better at that very "thing". It would be great to get better at maths when reading history books as well, but it just doesn't work that way. And let's not even talk about "player skill" when you gear up a tank by playing another role entirely. It's just how MMO's work: I play a tank, my tanking character gets "better" (geared), and I as a player get "better" (skilled) at tanking. I play a healer, my… oh you get it.

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Again, it makes way much more sense to have to actually use and play a job to gear it, than to be able to gear all of them only playing a single one. That would be more logical, and it would give much more sense to the armory system overall.

Finally:

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

If you do not understand the complaints about the armory system and tome caps, please refer to this thread here:
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ory-job-system.

Also, let's please keep the discussion for this issue all in a single thread(preferably the one linked) so it's easier for SE to see all our complaints about this issue in a single thread. It's how the japanese do it, more organized and easier to read.

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What Shiyo said, 100% agree. On a side-related note, it would be great if moderators here would actually merge similar topics, that's just good practice on a forum.
(Sometimes people don't take the time to research prior to posting, or can't find specific threads, therefore that's why moderation is required: not only to discipline but also to curate and organise a forum.)

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Originally Posted by Sove92

The mythology cap is obviously temporary, the fact that it takes 5½ months to get a full set of AF2 says enough.

Raising the cap is a better idea, so it is more likely. There are also 2 upcoming tome sets coming, which will probably capped as well, while myth cap keeps increasing. Of course they are restricting the speed ilvl 90 gear can be acquired when you can't even get ilvl 80 gear until 2.1.

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Why do they need to reduce the cost of af2 or raise limits. Makes any sense of progression retarded.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

Raising the cap isn't a solution to the OP's complain as it will not change the fact that you will still have to prioritise a "main" job; it would only add more grind for everyone actually, instead of just the people who want to gear several jobs. It's by no means a solution. The only solution would be a cap per job:

—> those who only want to gear one job would still have only 300 pts to make per week

—> those who want to gear several job could earn their 300 pts for their main, then another 300 pts for another job, and so on.

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The issue I have with caps being job restricted rather than character restricted is that currently to get my 300 myth, I can do WP/AK/CM/Praet/Primals etc as Bard or White Mage. Eventually I plan to have a Paladin at 50 be able to do AK/WP as well. As needed for better group make up and to switch things around. But I'm collecting my myth just for my Bard. I go to coil only as Bard. Bard is my main. Restricting it to jobs will force me to do my 10 WP runs a week only on bard. I will have to find specific groups and I will have to play just my bard. I don't really care to get myth for WHM or PLD right now, but I want to play them in WP/AK. But if I do that with job capped myth, then I'm not helping my Bard. Which is the appealing thing about the armoury system to me.

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Originally Posted by NotoriousZow

I do not like the idea of job-specific tomes. Why? Because I like the freedom of playing whatever job I want. Say I want to run a dungeon with 3 friends and they need me to be healer (maybe because my healing jobs are pretty maxed out on gear), but I'm earning tomes for a job I don't really need them on. I think that placing a job-specific tome reward system in place really limits you. I want to be able to play whatever job I want and spend my tomes however I want. You guys think that this will help make the armory system "not useless" but it in fact does the opposite. For me it will make the armory system to restrictive. I like how myth tomes are handled. I do not feel that it needs to be changed at all.

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This is a valid concern I think.

But if you think of it in terms of other games, where an alt is a separate character, you could never really earn currencies for your alt if you played your main. Debatable, but to me I think that's a hit you'd have to take. If you want to gear your alt, you should have to actively play it. Gearing through hand-me-downs and spare currencies is not my idea of how to alt.

And that the shared cap slows gearing down for a sense of progress... I think the magnitude of the scale of this is way off. By the time you can start using currency for your alt, the content is dated. By the time you can start using currency for you 3rd alt, we're probably 2 expansions down the road. And I don't see how having parallel gearing of your alts would disturb any sort of balance.

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Originally Posted by Pooky

The issue I have with caps being job restricted rather than character restricted is that currently to get my 300 myth, I can do WP/AK/CM/Praet/Primals etc as Bard or White Mage. Eventually I plan to have a Paladin at 50 be able to do AK/WP as well. As needed for better group make up and to switch things around. But I'm collecting my myth just for my Bard. I go to coil only as Bard. Bard is my main. Restricting it to jobs will force me to do my 10 WP runs a week only on bard. I will have to find specific groups and I will have to play just my bard. I don't really care to get myth for WHM or PLD right now, but I want to play them in WP/AK. But if I do that with job capped myth, then I'm not helping my Bard. Which is the appealing thing about the armoury system to me.

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I hear you. But I think there's way we could have a per-job cap and at the same time allow you to freely earn these tomes in a number of scenarios.

In another MMORPG there is a reputation system (you get reputation points by doing "stuff"). There are several reputations. When you do a dungeon, any dungeon, you get reputation points, and you're allowed to choose which of these reputations you want your points to go towards.

So consider this: in our case, you would be able to select "BRD" so that, no matter which class you play, no matter which dungeon you run, all the tomes earned would count towards your BRD cap (tomes that you could only use to buy BRD gear, obviously; they could be called "Mythology Tomes of the Bard"). When that cap reaches 300 (maxed), you'd then be able to get tomes for another job (again, 300 max for a given job, never more per week, for instance up to 300 "Mythology Tomes of the Paladin"), until the weekly reset happens and you can get back to earning tomes for your BRD.

Wouldn't that be nice?

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

herp derp

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So instead of a badge grind you want rep grinds?

I'm really glad people like you aren't working at SE.

Myth tome cap is fine where it is right now. It shouldn't be per job, and tomes shouldn't be mutually exclusive to the job they're earned on.

Furthermore, the armory system isn't useless it works just fine. Just because you can't get AF2 on all your jobs at the same time doesn't mean that it's pointless to have the ability to switch at all. All you WoWchildren just want instant gratification. You don't understand that if you had things your way, you would've already poopsocked all your jobs to the same level of AF2 and rather than complaining about this you'd be complaining that the game doesn't have enough to do and that you're bored. You'd probably unsub then and that would hurt Yoshi's feelings and that's just mean. Slowing the acquisition of gear is necessary at this point in the games life. You all need to just chill the fuck out, you'll get your jobs geared.

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Originally Posted by itscoreylol

So instead of a badge grind you want rep grinds?

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Uhhh… no?

Let's equate "rep" in another game with "jobs" here. You have 9 jobs to work with. Most people only focus 1, a few of us focus 2, and a tiny hardcore % focus 3 or more.

What I'm suggesting is the best of both world: there would be a 300 cap per week per job (therefore you can't gear any faster than currently), but you would be able earn tomes for any job playing any other job.

For instance, I play PLD. Let's imagine I also have a BLM 50.

1. Weekly reset on monday. I select "PLD" in a specific menu because that's my "main" job (typically would be a drop down menu in the DF window —*it's just about selecting which kind of tomes I want to get, I'm totally free to run dungeons using any other job).

2. Let's say I takes me until thursday to cap my PLD at 300 tomes. Whichever job I use, whichever dungeon I run, all the tomes I earn are "Tomes of the Paladin", therefore it works just as it does now: I can gear my PLD, playing any job I want.

3. Now let's say I'm not so casual and I still run more dungeons after that (to have fun with friends typically). Currently, I would get nothing (cap is per character).
With what I suggest, a per-job cap, means that I would then select "BLM". Again, whichever job/dungeon I play, I would keep on earning tomes but for BLM now. Maybe I'll get 100 until the next reset. Maybe more if I really want to gear my BLM. (remember, I can already do this if I had a second character who would be BLM 50, but I can't do it if my BLM 50 and my PLD 50 are on the same character: that's the whole point of my suggestion, trying to allow people to gear several jobs on the same character, since that's how this game is made: you can level up all jobs on the same character).

4. Next reset happens, on the next monday. All caps back to 0, therefore I select "PLD" again, and back to capping at 300.

I think it works. There's no additional grind if you don't want to (casual approach), but if you're a bit more hardcore, you can gear several jobs on the same character; but never does this system force you to play a specific job: I can earn my 300 PLD tomes while playing with my BLM if I so wish, it would just be a selector in a newfound menu.

As for your kind remark, please do not resort to ad hominem attacks: I'm just a player, like you, I just happen to suggest ideas that worked well in other games.

Also, when you say "All you WoWchildren just want instant gratification" : I don't see how it is "instant". Gratification, yes, that must be why most players actually play games. But in my scenario here, you would have to play double the time to gear 2 jobs instead of 1. Which you can already do by having two characters, but with this system, you can do it on the same char. I think it really empowers the current armory system, it makes it really worth using, instead of leveling up other characters entirely.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

What Shiyo said, 100% agree. On a side-related note, it would be great if moderators here would actually merge similar topics, that's just good practice on a forum.
(Sometimes people don't take the time to research prior to posting, or can't find specific threads, therefore that's why moderation is required: not only to discipline but also to curate and organise a forum.)

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Speaking to this. The devs already stated they will not be changing anything in regards to the amount of myth tomes you can pick up... Shiyo's post that s/he is self promoting has become moot.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1463519

EDIT: Maybe not completely moot, but the myth cap per job is a no. The only thing you have going for you is the reduction in tomes per item later down the road.

it takes time to do something in an MMORPG?!.... OMG!!!!!..........

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Speaking to this. The devs already stated they will not be changing anything in regards to the amount of myth tomes you can pick up... Shiyo's post that s/he is self promoting has become moot.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...=1#post1463519

EDIT: Maybe not completely moot, but the myth cap per job is a no. The only thing you have going for you is the reduction in tomes per item later down the road.

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I know, I read that. :(

But still, I'm of those fools who thinks making a good case can help finding better solutions, convincing people (read: fellow players but above all devs) that there can be "a better way". Or at least discuss it, consider the limits and flaws of a given choice and try to improve on it —I don't pretend to be right, but I certainly like a logical and reasonable discussion based on actual, humble, sound arguments.

I don't know of any game design that was perfect from the get-go (especially void of feedback, only tested at the office among fellow in-house devs), but I do know of game designers that strived to do better, listened to players feedback, and re-worked some aspects of their game again and again until they found a "sweet spot". SE said they would listen, and they already changed a few things in ARR since launch, so I'd rather believe they can still amend (even revamp) flawed designs that objectively don't fulfil their initial premise.

This isn't a game-breaking issue since there's a workaround known by everyone (roll another character), still it certainly tarnishes the interest of the whole armory system; but granted, there are more pressing issues such as the one we must not speak of.

Anyway, thanks for the pointers. :o

Mythology tombstones are used to buy Relic Armor, but it's not necessarily the best armor in the game. It's equivalent to the Allegan armor that drops in Bahamut's Coil. It's also, through the crafting and materia system, to make armor that's the rough equivalent. Thus, depending on how you play the game, you could gear up three jobs at the same time, by getting Relic for one job, Allegan for a second, and using crafting and materia for the third.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

herp derp

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Too long winded to read 90% of it. Your idea is bad. You're arguing for increasing the speed with which gear can be acquired which as I already said is not right for where this game is in it's life cycle. We haven't even had a content patch yet.

The worst part is you agree with that Shiyo kid. You both seem to agree on this idea that the armory system is flawed simply because you can't get myth gear on all your jobs at the same time. That's quite frankly a retarded way of looking at it. The armory system is functioning exactly as it was designed to, and the only people who have a problem with the rate at which mythology gear can be obtained are impatient entitled WoWchildren.

Bottom line, the highest tier of gear at a given level of content should not be quickly and easilly obtainable just by being able to grind more. Myth cap forcing you to make choices about which gear to get first is not a bad thing.

Introduced @ LV10 via class quest:

"Try other professions"

Introduced @ LV30 via Job quest:

"You have to level another profession up to play as this Job"

Period of progression LV30-50:

More and more cross-class abilities are needed/desired and become available by leveling other professions.

End game LV50+:

Coil & Myth caps: players must switch from diversifying their professions and focus on a single profession for (iL90) progression. All other classes can be geared up to iL70 - however Coil requires only 8 man groups and locks players out after completion - thus they form Statics - further funneling them into fulfilling only a single role. The utility of their iL70 off classes is disregarded - the Armoury system is now used for primarily filler - building Relics and obtaining Dark Light (iL70) - while (iL90) progression is limited only to the player's main class.

Upcoming: (iL80) Crystal Tower - this is still not the highest tier of gear - possibly for elevation of alternative professions; will this content be dependent on lock outs or other artificial caps?

Does it allow static groups to change and use different classes? No. A group will always choose to bring their primary iL90 (Myth) role over their alternative iL70/iL80 (CT/DL) role. Once those statics reach 8/8 people with full (iL90) they will continue to farm with the same set up for maximized efficiency to gear their next role with (iL90). However - if new content adds higher tiers of equipment before statics can 8/8 full (iL90) - players will continue to build and utilize their most efficient (iL90) role/profession - AKA they will continue to "main line" a single profession.

This renders the Armoury system moot.

Edit: FFXI did this in reverse - you could easily get a variety of usable and equivalent gear for all Jobs from a wide array of content - picking a "main" profession was determined by how much time you sank into a single Job via the Merit Point system.

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Originally Posted by Dhex

THE SKY IS FALLING

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because you know, no gear at all drops from the content they'd be clearing. Or you know, you're never going to reach the point with that ilvl90 job where you can't spend more myth tomes on it because you have all the gear. Also, nobody in the history of MMOs ever has been able to bring an alt to a raid.

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Originally Posted by itscoreylol

You're arguing for increasing the speed with which gear can be acquired

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No.

Nothing you can't do as we speak with two characters. I'm just arguing for more flexibility with one character, since it's the design philosophy of this game. However, since in other games people make rerolls to keep on playing once they're done capping their main character, it seems logical, given the philosophy of this game, that they can do with one char what they do with rerolls in other games.

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which as I already said is not right for where this game is in it's life cycle. We haven't even had a content patch yet.

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Agreed, it would be bad. I think the 300 myth cap is fine.

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Too long winded to read 90% of it. Your idea is bad.

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Short attention span?

Besides, how can you refute what you haven't even taken the time to understand? You don't get my idea, you don't address my remarks but a pre-conception you have on anything else than the current system.

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The worst part is you agree with that Shiyo kid.

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Why is it "bad"? You don't like the name "Shiyo"? You seem much more of a childish person than him, judging from your generally vindictive tone, and obtuse refusal to even read others' posts.

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You both seem to agree on this idea that the armory system is flawed simply because you can't get myth gear on all your jobs at the same time.

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Indeed, you're forced to roll a second character to do that. Again, contradicts the very philosophy of the armory system. I didn't invent this system, I'm just comparing its premise to the factual result.

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That's quite frankly a retarded way of looking at it.

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Thank you, much appreciated. How do you feel about yourself, commenting on things you didn't even read?

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The armory system is functioning exactly as it was designed to,

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That's obvious. It's not bugged. We're arguing it's a bad design that doesn't fulfil its initial premise.

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and the only people who have a problem with the rate at which mythology gear can be obtained are impatient

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Again, I don't have a problem with said rate.

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entitled WoWchildren.

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Says the guys with "lol" in its pseudonym. Also, you should know that childhood is long gone for me.

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Bottom line, the highest tier of gear at a given level of content should not be quickly and easilly obtainable just by being able to grind more.

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I agree. Never said otherwise. But you would need to read what I said to know that, of course.

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Myth cap forcing you to make choices about which gear to get first is not a bad thing.

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But that choice negates the very freedom of playing all jobs on the same character, which is the very point I'm trying to convey.

Said otherwise: the armory system is supposed to be an alternative to rolling several characters, but factually, it is not, since we still have to choose a "main".

I think you understand all of this pretty well and are just trying to "troll". But you can still prove me wrong by bringing real arguments to the table. Until then, have fun in this game.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

No.

Nothing you can't do as we speak with two characters. I'm just arguing for more flexibility with one character, since it's the design philosophy of this game. However, since in other games people make rerolls to keep on playing once they're done capping their main character, it seems logical, given the philosophy of this game, that they can do with one char what they do with rerolls in other games.


Agreed, it would be bad. I think the 300 myth cap is fine.


Why is it "bad"? You don't like the name "Shiyo"? You seem much more of a childish person than him, judging from your generally vindictive tone, and obtuse refusal to even read others' posts.


Short attention span?

Besides, how can you refute what you haven't even taken the time to understand? You don't get my idea, you don't address my remarks but a pre-conception you have on anything else than the current system.


Indeed, you're forced to roll a second character to do that. Again, contradicts the very philosophy of the armory system. I didn't invent this system, I'm just comparing its premise to the factual result.


Thank you, much appreciated. How do you feel about yourself, commenting on things you didn't even read?


That's obvious. It's not bugged. We're arguing it's a bad design that doesn't fulfil its initial premise.


Again, I don't have a problem with said rate.


Says the guys with "lol" in its pseudonym. Also, you should know that childhood is long gone for me.


I agree. Never said otherwise. But you would need to read what I said to know that, of course.


But that choice negates the very freedom of playing all jobs on the same character, which is the very point I'm trying to convey.

Said otherwise: the armory system is supposed to be an alternative to rolling several characters, but factually, it is not, since we still have to choose a "main".

I think you understand all of this pretty well and are just trying to "troll". But you can still prove me wrong by bringing real arguments to the table. Until then, have fun in this game.

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Unfortunately, there is no argument... The Devs will not be adjusting this for anyone. People may as well start working on their second characters. In fact 3 hours before servers go down for maintenance. Not trying to be mean, don't take it that way. Also, while you are not explicitly asking for faster tomes, you really are. With the current system capping, and SE's stance on not modifying it, the mere nature of asking tome caps per job increases the rate you gear all of your jobs. While it doesn't speed up your main jobs gearing, it speeds the rest so you could essentially become full AF+1 or relic(still not sure what to call it) all at the same time. This is not how the game was intended per SE. If anything, I support a small cap increase so you could at least speed the gear up for those that do have multiple jobs, but I can't say I support all jobs being able to accrue in the same week.

Another note: Since Coil is possible to complete with a majority of DL and some AK mixed in, AF+Relic is not required in a sense, but a luxury. While it is very nice to have and makes content easier, it is not the entry gear required to get into coil. With that being said, DL would be considered geared with tomes an incentive to push further.

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Originally Posted by itscoreylol

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because you know, no gear at all drops from the content they'd be clearing. Or you know, you're never going to reach the point with that ilvl90 job where you can't spend more myth tomes on it because you have all the gear.

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I didn't say no gear would drop - I specifically pointed out that even once they've gathered all the gear for the class they're playing - they know those roles best and now they /are/ geared - so what's the motivation for changing their party makeup? If new iL100 gear comes out before they complete their second iL90 set - are they going to use their current iL90 Tank who has experience tanking at high level of difficulty or switch to the other guy's alt Tank who is in iL70 with a few pieces of iL90? For the sake of progressing and figuring out the new content they will continue to use their established setup.

Wasn't the point of the Armoury system to play and enjoy all different classes? Or was it play and enjoy all different classes - except for endgame raiding where gear becomes a significant and determining factor?

At endgame you hit this hiccup:

Why would you intentionally choose to be less effective?

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Also, nobody in the history of MMOs ever has been able to bring an alt to a raid.

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WP RUN LFM 2x DPS FULL DL RELIC ONLY PLEASE 2/4 <- you're telling me you don't see some version this exact shout all the time while dicking around in Rev Toll?

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

But that choice negates the very freedom of playing all jobs on the same character, which is the very point I'm trying to convey.

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No it doesn't. All this restriction does is make it so you can't be the best of the best of the best sir, on every single job right away. There is nothing stopping you from getting there down the line, but they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS.

What you're arguing for is just another roundabout way of increasing the speed with which you can acquire gear on multiple jobs. Denying that because it's inconvenient to the point you're trying to convey is just dumb. inb4 another long winded diatribe about how I'm stupid for thinking entitled impatient WoWchildren are wrong.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Unfortunately, there is no argument... The Devs will not be adjusting this for anyone.

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Well, my crystal ball says the same as yours, apparently. ^^; And I think it's unfortunate, as you say. I just wish they'd reconsider, but I don't even know if our CM's, understaffed as they are, have time to translate the main topics/suggestions on this forum. I don't think so, or perhaps very rarely and partially at best.

I guess I'm just disappointed that, indeed:

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People may as well start working on their second characters.

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I really thought this game would be one in which rerolls are useless; guess that was just either a PR fluke or a misunderstanding on our part as players. I know if I wanted to play a second job, I'd reroll without a second thought —also, you get to possibly experience a different race, which is always nice in the —typically— long run of a MMO. :)

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Also, while you are not explicitly asking for faster tomes, you really are.

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Actually… :p (and this will probably be my last stance on this "suggestion" of a per-job cap)
I'm all for leaving the "minimum amount of time required to fully gear a job with the best gear" as it is; so technically it's really not asking for faster tomes per se. What I'm asking for, precisely, is to be able to run "parallel jobs" on a single character (which I thought was the premise of the armoury system), rather than running all these jobs on a set of discrete "parallel characters" (aka "rerolls").

You know the most ridiculous thing about that? It's actually not that hard to logout and back in with a couple chars (we do it in every other MMO); it's just that the game is very reroll-unfriendly (since you can't send items from/to your own alts; you'd have to rebuild your whole, much needed, friend list for each char, etc. It all reeks of a very tedious management, not even counting retainers, loot/inventory fragmentation and so on). The biggest issue being that you will have to level up 50+34+26 (main job + main sub-class + secondary sub-class) on each of these characters, making a lot of duplicate classes (read: grind). You'd be WHM 50 on one char, CNJ 34 on another, CNJ 26 on a third… The whole thing isn't a very pleasant perspective. At least you'd avoid FATE'ing your way up to 50 on many classes (since you'd re-run the story and possibly secondary quests, probably taking more time overall but certainly a more enjoyable experience for my tastes), but still… it doesn't seem very well thought over, from a dev POV I mean. It's not smooth, efficient, complementary, there's a lot of forced do-over.

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With the current system capping, and SE's stance on not modifying it, the mere nature of asking tome caps per job increases the rate you gear all of your jobs. While it doesn't speed up your main jobs gearing, it speeds the rest so you could essentially become full AF+1 or relic(still not sure what to call it) all at the same time. This is not how the game was intended per SE.

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I'm changing my mind on this. I think you're right. Again, the word "unfortunate" comes to mind. The game was clearly not intended to make you play all jobs "equally" on the same character (as in, akin to fusing the traditional "main" with all its "alts" or "rerolls"). It certainly seems that way. I must say it really disappointments me; since I love sandboxes and thought there was a sandbox-horizontal "flavour" to ARR; but clearly the progression in this game is as vertical as can be.

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If anything, I support a small cap increase so you could at least speed the gear up for those that do have multiple jobs, but I can't say I support all jobs being able to accrue in the same week.

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Obviously, I disagree, but we know that already. :o The main reason for my being against a raising of the cap being that players usually feel, either personally or socially (peer-pressure, even positively), "obliged" or "forced" (these terms being abused, let's say "feeling a strong incentive") to reach that cap; and I think the current time "required" (again, abusive term, but for the sake of discussion) per week is already enough for a casual player. Perhaps it would be nice to get gils instead of tomes, or at least myths becoming philos, once you're capped, or something equivalent, but then again it's a bandaid for what I consider to be a strictly rigid vertical progression system. Which one may or may not like, that's not the issue, but I think we can all agree ARR does it a well as far as capped/vertical progression goes —a bit too well for my own tastes, but then again I've been spoiled by sandboxes and very flexible "theme parks". :p

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Another note: Since Coil is possible to complete with a majority of DL and some AK mixed in, AF+Relic is not required in a sense, but a luxury. While it is very nice to have and makes content easier, it is not the entry gear required to get into coil. With that being said, DL would be considered geared with tomes an incentive to push further.

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While this is perfectly true, I don't think it's a valid argument for or against the current per-char cap system, since obviously —> reroll. To be honest, in most MMO's, the highest gear isn't required to clear the content, rather it is the result of doing so, and a progressively required factor in actually being able to (the classic "gearing-as-you-progress" scheme on which most raids rely).

With that being said, I think we should really listen to Shiyo now and go back to his thread should we wish to discuss this any further. :p



________
EDIT:

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Originally Posted by itscoreylol

No it doesn't. All this restriction does is make it so you can't be the best of the best of the best sir, on every single job right away. There is nothing stopping you from getting there down the line, but they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS.

What you're arguing for is just another roundabout way of increasing the speed with which you can acquire gear on multiple jobs. Denying that because it's inconvenient to the point you're trying to convey is just dumb. inb4 another long winded diatribe about how I'm stupid for thinking entitled impatient WoWchildren are wrong.

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Can we agree on the fact that you're not stupid and I'm not entitled, and certainly not impatient?

I have one word for you: reroll. And this "they specifically put this cap in place to GATE THE SPEED AT WHICH PEOPLE WILL ATTAIN ENDGAME GEAR ON THEIR JOBS." becomes a moot point since, obviously, we can workaround it anytime we please. Again, this suggestion of mine doesn't shrink the time required to gear in any way, it just makes it possible to do it on a single char rather than several.

So, clearly, the per-char cap limit pertains to the armory system, not to the game itself. It's an artificial limitation, it doesn't work besides gating 1 job over 9 on a single character, and making the other 8 impossible to gear at the highest level on that character. Which makes one… you know it… reroll!

However, it's a clever way to make people pay the extra $ to be allowed to roll several chars on a single server —and business wise, I think it's shady since it's obfuscated, but brilliant at the same time since they can attract customers with a slightly lower price and hopefully get a good chunk of them (the "hardcore") to eventually pay $1 more. MMO's being social settings, most people will want to play their rerolls with their friends. It's probably fair, too, since after all a hardcore player "costs" more to the company: more support, more server resources (occupied slot), and so on, over the lifespan of the game. Well, nevermind that he makes the game "live" and others do benefit from his presence in group content;, but I'm digressing and I think you hate that, so let's cut it short.

I think we have different tastes (obviously) but we do agree on what the armory/cap system does. I think it's unfortunate, you think it's great, so we should probably leave it at that.

I'm off this topic.

BUT I WANT MOAAAAR RIGHT NEOW MOARRRR, NO TIME TO WAIT I NEED MOARRR COWBELLL.

AENO

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

herp derp

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Why would I want to reroll. I'm fine with things how they are. The only thing I want is more content. Also if it's so easy for you to just level another character, and level all the other classes for the cross class skills you need (the real main reason behind the armory system) maybe you should just do that.

It's not a huge expectation for SE to want players to specialize. I'm guessing you never played XI, where you could multiclass as well but at endgame you didn't have every swinging dick with multiple level 75 jobs wanting sky gear on all his jobs at the same time. That's pretty much tantamount to what you're asking for with these ideas.

IMO, SE knew that the endgame content upon game launch was going to be inadequate to hold peoples interest until 2.1. So the myth cap was established to give people something to work on for several months until they add more content. I would suspect we will see the cap change as more content is added. Besides, there will be more gear and probably different ways to acquire it as well. Before long, myth tomes will probably not be much of an issue.

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Originally Posted by itscoreylol

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Riiiiiiiiiiight. Because you know, no gear at all drops from the content they'd be clearing. Or you know, you're never going to reach the point with that ilvl90 job where you can't spend more myth tomes on it because you have all the gear. Also, nobody in the history of MMOs ever has been able to bring an alt to a raid.

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IDK if FFXI counts but people would bring alts to everything.

EDIT
Also I don't know why people keep thinking Relic gear is BIS for all slots..........

Frankly, I'm really quite amazed by the lack of awareness of armor sets. I'm going to say this in bold so people can understand.

You are not limited to gearing up one job at a time

There are three options to gearing up to the most powerful armor sets in the game. First off, there's the relic armor, which is bought with Mythology stones. It takes about 10 weeks of myth tombstone grinding (not including getting relic +1 weapon) to get the full armor set for a single job, or about 2 and a half months. This is not including getting the Relic Weapon +1'd, nor getting the relic accessories (which would be about one week extra per).

The second option is the Allagan armor, which is the exact equivalent of Relic armor. Yes, you can get Allagan armor instead of Relic armor, and get almost the exact same stats. This drops from the Binding Coil, and really, the gear requirements for that place is about the same as Titan Hard Mode. Now, there isn't a "time" requirement per say, but there's an element of luck, as getting the armor to drop, and rolling on the armor. But it is possible to get this armor in place of Relic.

The third option is the crafting option. There is armor that can be crafted that's just a bit below the other two pieces of armor, even HQ'ed, but it can be melded. Using the right Materia, it's possible to get the equivalent of the above two armors. It requires a bit of patience, skill, and luck, but you can craft and meld a piece of armor that's the same, if not better, than Relic or Allagan, and it doesn't require setting foot in a dungeon, raid, or primal fight.

So, there you have it folks. Three options in getting the best gear in the game, and there's really no wrong answer here. Played right, you could gear up to five jobs at once.

TL;DR version of above: There's more than one way to gear, and the armory system works fine.

Alts are only an option if you're a no lifer really. For the vast majority there's plenty to do every week between Coil, Capping Myth and leveling other classes.

Basically the idea of Myth cap per job is a terrible idea, it's counter intuitive to how the armory system works and will only benefit those who have much higher than average play times. I don't think it's understood that a lot of players simply don't want to have to cap any more than 300 tomes per week. Also, the HUGE problem is that you'd be restricted to farming for myth on the job that you went into the dungeon as. There's not really any way around that, it would certainly be locked to the job, if they could even implement the idea.

If you can level another character and have it ready for coil in 2 days then good for you, most people don't heave the bandwidth to do that. It's actually a perfectly fine solution if you find yourself running out of content every week. However, there's not much from stopping you doing this on your main too, at least to the point where the job is ready for T1-4. Beyond that, then yeah, it's pretty clear that we're not supposed to have multiple jobs decked out in iLvL90 gear. For the moment I'm perfectly fine with that notion.