Please nerf/adjust one of the new Expert Dungeons (7.0 spoilers)

I do Not get The people who want Harder dungeones... Dungeons are Casual content...for a lage audience... If you want Harder stuff there is savage and ultimate... I Just want to get my daylie done ASAP and braindead... And do hard Content in raids... Or give us better rewards in dungeones

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Originally Posted by Noitems

Please at least reduce or fix the amount of stuff going on during the first boss of Strayborough Deadwalk.

I'm fine with the concept behind the fight, but it is one of the most punishing Extreme dungeons in the game. I've been playing melee only, and whether it be someone else gets binded (which on melee is even more punishing) by wack hitboxes or just the amount of visual clutter going on during that fight. The debuff lasting 10 seconds and causing you to not be able to do anything but move is also extremely rough. I think the idea of the mechanic if you get hit should do something but at least make the timer for it 3-4 seconds.

Especially during one of the moments the mascots are running at you and the purple raidwide hits basically blocking your screen potentially walking into another mascot or an aoe dropped by another player. It legit has waaaay too much going on for an Expert dungeon. Between this boss and the second one it felt like a Savage designer got their hands on a normal dungeon and made it into an obstacle course. The third boss is more in line with what I expected despite it being much easier.

I'm all for the challenge, but considering this is something people are going to queue in for the daily, with varied player experience it may lead to fatigue from players just trying to get a daily done. Alexandria and Tender Valley are great middle grounds for fast and fun fights with just enough going on, which I hope we get more of going forward.

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Im gonna BL you

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Originally Posted by Thari

I do Not get The people who want Harder dungeones... Dungeons are Casual content...for a lage audience... If you want Harder stuff there is savage and ultimate... I Just want to get my daylie done ASAP and braindead... And do hard Content in raids... Or give us better rewards in dungeones

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The problem I think is that dailies are used for so much. It's casual content, but it's also a midcore means of gearing--especially when relic quests call for a bunch of tomes. I think the optional dungeons being so much harder is a way to try and accommodate both.

The problem is that it makes Expert "now" fairly hard, while Expert (if they do it like DW) will be very "easy" later, as the MSQ quests for 6.3, 6.4, etc push out the ones we have now.

I think optional dungeons that are more difficult is a very good thing, and a good thing to have in roulettes, but I can't help but wonder if MSQ 100s should be put in "High Level Dungeons" and Expert made its own thing, where it's meant to be harder.

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

wasnt this you?

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If you want to compare Expert rous to Extreme content, I don't know what to say. Expert rous are something to just queue into on the daily and get done within 20 min or so. An extreme is more like a raid so it does require positioning, planning, and people to be on point to actually get the fight done. But trying to search for this quote from my post history to use as ammo, is pretty funny.

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Originally Posted by Voidmage

You have your story dungeons. The others are not needed so no there should be no nerf.
There is a time and a place for casual dungeons but this isn't it.

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You can have both, and I feel that just even just adjusting the first boss in some kind of way to reduce the debuff by a second or two is really all that needs to be done. Safe gaming is fine with me and experienced players can go ham with it as well. There are problems in there that will be done as more people play through, my issue is more on the general grind as I've had about 6 runs today where either a single healer keeps dying with no rezzers, that just leads to overall burnout when even trying to do what we consider daily content.

If this eventually reshapes what kinds of players queue into the daily roulette I'm all for it as well, as players will start seeing more players on the same skill level who can actually complete the content reliably.

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Originally Posted by Thari

I do Not get The people who want Harder dungeones... Dungeons are Casual content...for a lage audience... If you want Harder stuff there is savage and ultimate... I Just want to get my daylie done ASAP and braindead... And do hard Content in raids... Or give us better rewards in dungeones

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I mean, you still can?
You have a whole week for getting your 450 capped tomes.
Skipping expert roullette isn't that big of a deal if it bothers you that much.

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Originally Posted by Thari

I do Not get The people who want Harder dungeones... Dungeons are Casual content...for a lage audience... If you want Harder stuff there is savage and ultimate... I Just want to get my daylie done ASAP and braindead... And do hard Content in raids... Or give us better rewards in dungeones

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It's actually pretty easy to "get":
Not everyone likes raiding, especially the organized, scheduled kind.

Small group content that can be done at the drop of a hat does have it's allure.
Dungeons don't have to be savage level, mind you. Criterion dungeons kinda were and those were not fun to play at all.

A return to what they were back in ARR would suffice for many of us.

Is it really such a bad thing if they make a dungeon ‘difficult’? Or is it really a bad thing if players die a load of times and have to actually work together to overcome a challenge? Isn’t that the whole point of playing a ‘multiplayer’ game? I also don’t think it’s fair to say that just because there’s a ‘challenge’ it’s going to be ‘undoable’ with average players/DF. I mean, isn’t the whole point of overcoming a challenge that you become stronger every time? (i.e players come out a little more skilled each time). That is to say, what’s hard to begin with rarely ever remains as such

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Originally Posted by Basteala

The problem I think is that dailies are used for so much. It's casual content, but it's also a midcore means of gearing--especially when relic quests call for a bunch of tomes. I think the optional dungeons being so much harder is a way to try and accommodate both.

The problem is that it makes Expert "now" fairly hard, while Expert (if they do it like DW) will be very "easy" later, as the MSQ quests for 6.3, 6.4, etc push out the ones we have now.

I think optional dungeons that are more difficult is a very good thing, and a good thing to have in roulettes, but I can't help but wonder if MSQ 100s should be put in "High Level Dungeons" and Expert made its own thing, where it's meant to be harder.

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Thank you for being someone who is actually willing to have a conversation about this issue.

I agree that the problem stems from rous being used for everything as the most convenient way for getting gear/tomes. That leads to a perception where we just accepted that they were always going to be around that difficulty.

As time moves on and more people unlock these dungeons it's also going to change the concept of how MSQ dungeons are going to be for people. SHB made every high level dungeon MSQ, if DT continues the same are we going to be having everything go through this same level of craziness for story completion? I assume Alexandria level difficulty would be the standard going forward which is just the right amount.

I will say looking through this thread people did bring up that we will eventually get better to gear that will help on the damage/time saving end. I will keep running this content and slowly work on improving each time, but I'm curious how MSQ progression will go if these dungeons become the new expert.


With these new ones in DT they really want to change that idea, which I'm all for, as it does make things more challenging and fun.

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Originally Posted by Noitems

You can have both, and I feel that just even just adjusting the first boss in some kind of way to reduce the debuff by a second or two is really all that needs to be done. Safe gaming is fine with me and experienced players can go ham with it as well. There are problems in there that will be done as more people play through, my issue is more on the general grind as I've had about 6 runs today where either a single healer keeps dying with no rezzers, that just leads to overall burnout when even trying to do what we consider daily content.

If this eventually reshapes what kinds of players queue into the daily roulette I'm all for it as well, as players will start seeing more players on the same skill level who can actually complete the content reliably.

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And that is how it should be in expert content.
Players can fail, players can try again and players can get better.
It's fine for an mmo to have players clash sometimes, it's fine for them to struggle a bit. This is a video game after all.

There exist easy dungeons already. If we nerf stuff just because some people fail in it and don't want to get better in optional content then why even have content that is called extreme anyway?

I say it my opinion directly now, sorry if it sounds aggressive.
The expert dungeon roulette is not designed for players to shut of their brain and get rewards asap. It is there to fill the content with players.
For easy rewards there is leveling and MSQ roulette as well as trial. For slightly harder there are the raid roulettes and above that is expert.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be a way for those who fail these dungeons (I think the game needs to do a better job a teaching players) but...
The arguments here and on many other sites (Reddit, Youtube comments, japanese sites) tell me that there is a junk of players that are starved for deeper content for two expansions now in a row. The majority, of course not but a sizable portion anyway.
FF14 dungeons had become a meme in the community at the end.
Even the devs seem to have realised that with DT.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Is it really such a bad thing if they make a dungeon ‘difficult’? Or is it really a bad thing if players die a load of times and have to actually work together to overcome a challenge? Isn’t that the whole point of playing a ‘multiplayer’ game? I also don’t think it’s fair to say that just because there’s a ‘challenge’ it’s going to be ‘undoable’ with average players/DF. I mean, isn’t the whole point of overcoming a challenge that you become stronger every time? (i.e players come out a little more skilled each time). That is to say, what’s hard to begin with rarely ever remains as such

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technically it is.
World of Warcraft tried this during the Cataclysm expansion. Dungeons were MEAN a mere 2 expansions prior (TBC era) but one expansion of easymode (Wrath Era) made the community utterly incapable and unwilling to do the dungeons in Cataclysm.

The dungeons were fun with guild groups but absolute hell with randoms. Blizzard had to backpedal hard and nerf stuff. The experiment of "will people rise to the challenge and improve?" utterly failed.