[Opinion] Why I'm disappointed by most changes to healers.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

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I have a really hard time believing that you DPS whenever you can. You sound more like a "omg you are at 90% i need to heal you!" type of healer.

I never stated anything about being Petty. There are AoEs that will literally one-shot or near one-shot DPS, if they don't avoid these and die it is their fault.

Also it hilarious how you say "... but as far as I'm concerned, 99% of the playerbase just doesn't know what it means to heal." When you literally have no idea what it means to heal in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Again, I think you're selling the community short, there's a lot of players out there who simply enjoy getting stuck into 'trap' groups and seeing if they can carry/coach them through the content. Have a little faith and get 'networking' so to speak.

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I can agree with this. I tend to get quite depressed by the community though.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Outside of savage I really don't think it matters because frankly, the content is a trivial face roll at best.

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I think this is the critical point in everything you said though. You're viewing the game the same as so many other people (not that that is inherently bad):

End game/savage is the only relevant content. Everything else is faceroll.

This is simply not true. The sync system, echo (and our ability to remove echo), minIL, and undersizing (including undersized minIL, sync, and unsync) are all there for a reason. Old content is just as relevant as new content. And normal battles can be plenty difficult if you go in with the right set of limitations. People just refuse to play it because they're too concerned with the newest and shiniest material rewards to bother with it. But old content is no less fun than any of the new content. Nor is it any less challenging. In fact, in many cases it's harder. And if you do it with customized parties to up the challenge, the mechanics change. Attacks that used to be no problem become exceptionally dangerous. The healer may be so busy trying to solo heal the tank that they can't cope with any incoming damage unless they use cooldowns. And if a big boss AoE is coming up in 30 seconds, a DPS eats avoidable damage for 75% of their health, but you can't stop healing the tank without falling behind, you'll have to use cooldowns to prevent that DPS from dying 30 seconds later.

You keep saying that there are no situations in which this safety-first mindset is relevant because bosses (especially these days) are designed to be fairly straightforward. Like you said, either the damage is negligible, or it is an instant death. But if you start delving into undersized content and related challenge runs, you'll very quickly find that cooldowns become necessary to use frequently. Then of course there are situations like the one you mentioned where experienced players are carrying.

However, you should also remember that it's not just about preventing deaths. It's also about recovering from it. If a player dies, the healer will often need to use cooldowns to recover from the situation. This is especially true if multiple players die in rapid succession.

It also sounds like you don't solo heal a lot to be honest. Especially not with a party that takes extra damage. There are tons of situations in which healers need to at least double-cast an AoE heal via Swiftcast, etc.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

I have a really hard time believing that you DPS whenever you can. You sound more like a "omg you are at 90% i need to heal you!" type of healer.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl24RGVOwEM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTWoy2MxNDQ&t=4s

Watch one of these. I'm really not the sort that heals at 90%. I know what I'm doing. I also throw DPS in whenever I actually have a moment free from healing.

P.S. Yes, there were RDMs in the party, but please be aware that they didn't spam their heals willy nilly (though they did use them more than they actually needed to; I think in the first video I did actually slip up on the tank sustain once and they saved my sorry behind :)...). I've also done this with a DRK/AST comp with no RDMs though.

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Originally Posted by VanilleFang

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to get into everything I disagree with. I'm tired and I have to be up early.


But if a DPS took damage they could avoid it is 100% their fault if they die. No one else's. It doesn't matter that the healer is there to keep everyone else alive, it is everyone's job to keep THEMSELVES alive as much as possible.

Responsibility on your own life is not healer > yourself. It's yourself > healer. That's like saying a doctor is responsibly if you die because you didn't move out of the way of ticking bomb.

You are literally perpetuating the "healers adjust" meme.

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Well, let's compromise.

If the DPS takes a 100% avoidable hit, it's their fault. If they die, it's still their fault that they got hit in the first place, but it's the healer's fault for letting them actually die.

What else is the healer busy doing? Adding a bit of DPS that is eclipsed by a mere 5 seconds out of the 40 seconds the DPS player that they should have saved is laying dead? ;)

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Originally Posted by inhaledcorn

It almost sounds like you're blaming literally every other player for this change, that you know better, and we're all stupid for thinking otherwise despite us showing proof multiple times in your "In the case of the (former) Spear" thread to the contrary. You're also fundamentally misunderstanding the use of cooldowns and how healing works in general. Yes, a healer should strive to save people from damage, but there's only so much that can be done if a player is actively ignoring mechanics. At that point, it's an MP drain and a focus drain on the healer (and more often than not, the player is doing very bad DPS anyway, so they're probably better off dead so that the healer can contribute more DPS to make up for it).

Healer cooldowns are like tank cooldowns: They're not "Oh shit" buttons. They're meant to be used actively and planned in a way that they would be the most effective. In learning O2s, I figured out that Gravitational Wave is generally spread out enough that Rouse/Whispering Dawn will always be up for it to help my healing and use them accordingly. I also plan out effectively when to use Indom and Excog, so that I'm using Aetherflow efficiently (and well enough that I can also use it on Energy Drain to push down the Aetherflow cooldown and generate some extra damage/mp). Saying, "You should hang onto Assize or Lucid Dreaming until you need it or you get 3 lilies" is extremely foolish and would get you laughed at by good WHM players.

There is just so much wrong with this and puts all the blame on healers when it's almost never just the healer's fault if something goes bad.

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You're prioritizing DPS so much though.

First though, I find it hard to believe that a DPS can be so bad that a healer could outdps them. I suppose it does happen, but very rarely. And I'd also consider the fun and development of that player. Is leaving that player dead going to help them have fun or get better? No. But that's not really here nor there for the sake of this argument.

I don't hang onto cooldowns on WHM until I have 3 lilies. Not unless the amount of time I would be waiting for the 3rd lily is small enough that the cooldown reduction is still powerful. I wouldn't recommend doing that either. But I might recommend holding onto it briefly if it will be necessary for a heal. However, since Assize is linked to MP sustain for WHM, it's a frustrating skill to work around from a safety-first perspective. If it didn't have the MP restore effect, I would hang onto it. As it stands though, I'll usually use it whenever it's off cooldown, or whenever the AoE attack hits some or all of the party, depending on the time until the next AoE.

Also, for everyone responding, not just you:

There's a reason I put [Opinion] on the title, and even put a warning at the top. I'm giving my opinions here, and that includes my feeling that 99% of healers don't know how to heal. If you disagree with me, then fine. But I'm not saying "Fact: 99% of healers don't know how to heal." I'm saying: "I think that 99% of healers don't know how to heal." There's a big difference there.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Well, let's compromise.

If the DPS takes a 100% avoidable hit, it's their fault. If they die, it's still their fault that they got hit in the first place, but it's the healer's fault for letting them actually die.

What else is the healer busy doing? Adding a bit of DPS that is eclipsed by a mere 5 seconds out of the 40 seconds the DPS player that they should have saved is laying dead? ;)

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Translation: "Let's compromise by agreeing that I'm still right."

That's not how compromising works.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Also, for everyone responding, not just you:

There's a reason I put [Opinion] on the title, and even put a warning at the top. I'm giving my opinions here, and that includes my feeling that 99% of healers don't know how to heal. If you disagree with me, then fine. But I'm not saying "Fact: 99% of healers don't know how to heal." I'm saying: "I think that 99% of healers don't know how to heal." There's a big difference there.

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Saying you're stating your "opinion" does not make you free of criticism. And, blaming every other healer for the changes that took place does not make you right or a better player than us. You are literally the only person I have seen decrying the chance to Spear because "the old one was better". If you're the only one of that opinion, maybe your opinion is wrong. Most complaints I see about the Spear is that "AST didn't need another buff". I don't play AST as my main, and even I feel that this change was for the better. You're saying 99% of healers don't know how to heal, yet most of us in this thread seem to know more than you. That's a really "high and mighty" assertion for someone to make when more of your statements point to the contrary.

@inhaledcorn

No...

I compromised by saying that it is partially the DPS' fault when they die, instead of saying it's the healer's fault. Though if you want to nitpick, I suppose it's impossible to compromise at a certain point, since if you simply can't agree with the healer bearing any responsibility, then there is no middle ground to stand on.

Of course I'm not free of criticism? Everyone is criticizing me right now, and I'm arguing back, but I'm not saying I'm immune to criticism. That would just be narcissism. I was just saying that people seem to be getting too insulted as if I'm claiming that everyone necessarily has no idea how to heal. But all I'm doing is voicing my opinion. Sure, some people might find that insulting, but I did say I wouldn't mince words. That's how I feel about it. I'm not claiming it as a universal truth though. I'm just saying that's how I feel.

For example, your opinion is that "most of us in this thread seem to know more than you (me)." Obviously, I disagree with that. But I'm not going and assuming that you're claiming it as a universal truth that I'm an idiot. You just believe I'm an idiot. You have every right to believe I'm an idiot. And I don't particularly care if you do.

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Originally Posted by Rivxkobe

Is this one of those "four-man RM" runs? Because you can't use that to defend or support your position. Why? Because it is NOT real content, and the chances of a single DPS being hit by Ahk Morn in RM with you being the only one healing is so incredibly rare (considering 2 tanks, a co-healer and 3 other DPS) that it is silly to use it as an example.

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Uh... what?

There's a video proving that you can 4-man RM. In fact, I'm pretty sure it can be 3-manned. So, yeah, it's real.

Now, if you are just claiming that 4-man RM is irrelevant, then on what basis are you claiming that? Because it doesn't offer any material reward that is relevant to gaining end-game gear, perhaps? Oh, so now only material-minded players are allowed to play the game :rolleyes:?

Maybe you personally believe there is no point to doing that content, but there are plenty of players who enjoy that sort of challenge. It's not just me either. There are plenty of players who enjoy unconventional content like this. And outside of challenge runs of this nature, there's a sizeable portion of the playerbase, especially among casual players, I should think, that just play for immaterial fun. They fight bosses because they enjoy it, and not because they enjoy the rewards. The process itself is the reward for us.

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Originally Posted by NocturniaUzuki

Uh... what?

There's a video proving that you can 4-man RM. In fact, I'm pretty sure it can be 3-manned. So, yeah, it's real.

Now, if you are just claiming that 4-man RM is irrelevant, then on what basis are you claiming that? Because it doesn't offer any material reward that is relevant to gaining end-game gear, perhaps? Oh, so now only material-minded players are allowed to play the game :rolleyes:?

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They're saying it's irrelevant because it's a self-imposed challenge that purposely limits your groups DPS, HPS, and ability at handling mechanics safely. Your struggles in 4-man RM, even if you successfully clear, aren't a valid reason for why Pre-4.05 Spear is better.

With that in mind, your example of the DPS dying due to Ahk Morn doesn't work since it only happens due to your group only being a light party instead of a full party, which is what RN is balanced for.

Should I call nerfs to forced Tank Swap mechanics due to my party not wanting to bring a second tank for the challenge? No, because the instance was made with two tanks in mind.

TL;DR: 4-man RM isn't a valid example since it's a self-imposed challenge, even if it is possible.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

It's my fault if they die to an AoE? AoEs in much harder content either have debilitating debuffs, such as vuln stacks, or will outright one-shot them. How am I supposed to deal with those if they're already at 100% HP before the AoE?

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If you're talking about avoidable AoEs and 1-shot AoEs in Savage, then often you can't save the player. But then your cooldown management does come into play when trying to resurrect them. Also, you could cast a shield on them to effectively increase their HP above 100%. Alternatively, there's now Rescue for situations like these.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Dodging AoEs is not being perfect. AoEs are in virtually every single fight. What WOULD be considered being perfect is maximizing DPS while dodging aoes. Being able to dodge AoEs is something that people should expect from others. You don't need to be a savage player to deal with a core mechanic of the game.

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Quite right. Maximizing DPS is a higher level of perfection. But mid-core and hard-core players tend to set the bar too high. Expecting 100% mechanic avoidance rate is not reasonable for the majority of the playerbase. The 1% was an exaggeration, but I'd say only about 5-15% of the playerbase actually plays at the level of farm parties. But it tends to appear higher because those are the players mainly using Party Finder, and they're the ones that play every single day.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Which is why SE has unavoidable damage in most fights.

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Indeed. And this constitutes the minimum heal check on bosses. Generally, it is not very difficult for healers to manage. In some fights, it gets very difficult though, and a single party member mishap can wipe the whole raid. So when I said that, I thought it was implicit that I meant it only for avoidable attacks. Obviously the unavoidable minimum heal check is always going to be there.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

I don't expect to play with the most elite. I expect people who understand the base mechanics of the game.

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See above. Your expectations are too high for the majority of players. If you expect people in the top 5-15% (approx), then that's fine. But you're judging things based on a very small set of players.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Why is it always the Healers fault if the DPS die due to AoEs? What if the DPS has 6 vuln stacks and WILL die if they get hit by the next AoE, even at 100% HP? Is it still my fault for not keeping them alive after the 7th AoE which I literally couldn't heal them through?

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Nope. I explicitly mentioned this. If it is literally impossible for the healer to keep the DPS alive, then it is 100% the DPS player's fault. Until then, it is a mix of the DPS player's fault and the healer's fault. The DPS shouldn't be taking that much damage, but that doesn't abstain the healer from the responsibility of keeping that DPS alive.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

If a DPS needs 200% effective HP to survive an AoE, at least that's what I'm getting from your example, then nothing can stop them from dying.

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You're misinterpreting here. Think of it this way: the DPS is at 50% HP (12000). You use Bole on them. Now if they take an attack that deals 12000 HP, that attack only deals 9600 and they will survive with 2400 HP. So what happens if they're about to take an attack for 23000 HP? Is Bole going to let them survive? No. 23000 minus 20% is 18400. They will die. So instead, you might consider an oGCD instant heal, etc. If this heals for around 12000 HP, then they will now have 24000 HP and will survive the 23000 damage.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Also I never implied that the only help a DPS would get is a Bole. Being at 100% HP should let a DPS survive any non-EX/Savage content unless they've been stacking their Vuln Up or dying through one-shot mechanics.

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You are basing this on normal content only. If the DPS is only getting hit by mechanics intended for DPS to get hit by (avoidable or unavoidable), then being at 100% should be enough, as long as it's not a one-shot. But what if your tank is dead and the DPS is about to eat a tank buster? Some of them will be impossible to survive, but others can be survived with appropriate shields and buffs. Or what if your party is down 5 members going into a stack marker mechanic and you don't have enough HP even at 100% to survive the damage split? Cast shields/damage reduction buffs.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

DPS shouldn't be targeted by Ahk Morn in RN at all. The fault for that situation falls on the problem DPS standing too close to the tanks and the tanks for not being close enough to each other to properly soak it.

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See above. Assume that the tank(s) are dead.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

Unless you mean the one that doesn't target a tank. If you mean that Ahk Morn then I should tell you that it only kills a DPS if they stay inside of it.

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I am well aware of what Akh Rhai does.

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Originally Posted by magnanimousCynic

What? The only cooldown AST has, not counting cards, that could/should be used for DPS is Earthly Star. You shouldn't be using Lightspeed or Swiftcast for DPS if that's what you're saying.

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The only one that can be directly used for DPS is Earthly Star. But plenty of healers use Lightspeed to conserve MP, thereby allowing them to spam Gravity for AoE. Same with Largesse. If it saves one Helios cast, they can use that time to DPS instead, and save MP.