Will Paladins get an enmity boost as well?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

The one supposed advantage of flash is that you can restore your mana to keep flashing by switching to a fast->riot->flash combo. However, this takes 2 GCD to build up the mana. In that time, the WAR has almost generated enough TP to perform another overpower, which should not only provide more enmity overall, but more damage too.

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The only way I can think of that a WAR will build up TP to get another OP off in that time is if he does nothing else...OP is 130 TP, and you regen I think 70 or 80 every three seconds or so (not sure on exact numbers, sorry, but I know its not enough to regen enough for OP every tick). So in order to do that, you have to not use any abilites that use TP while waiting for it to regen...which makes the PAL's regen better, since they are still doing something productive as they regen (yes, Flash for WAR too, and your Wrath abilities, but if your MP is out or you're not Infuriated...)

Testo said shield oath is broken.

I've been seeing this a lot lately, and though I haven't done any official testing, perhaps I can provide some insight. First of all, Shield Oath is definitely giving an enmity increase. Try Co-tanking with another pally, you in Sword oath, him in nothing. Then try again with him in Shield and you in sword. You'll steal hate almost effortlessly when he doesn't have shield oath up, and while its certainly possible/easy to do when if you aren't careful when he does have shield oath up, it still is considerably different. I think the bigger issue, is Sword Oath needing enmity suppression. People like to discount auto attacks, but an extra 50 potency on EVERY single swing (and they come fast on PLD) is A LOT of additional hate. Couple that with the fact, that our main dmg combo, is also our main hate combo, and it makes in nearly impossible to DPS on PLD as an OT, unless you give the MT a solid 15-30 seconds you just spamming Fast blade or something.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I don't know if PLD really have much of an advantage in this regard. Overpower seems to be much stronger for enmity generation than flash is, even moreso when you stack it with maim, berserk, internal release and/or unchained (fight or flight doesn't seem to do much as far as flash is concerned). The one supposed advantage of flash is that you can restore your mana to keep flashing by switching to a fast->riot->flash combo. However, this takes 2 GCD to build up the mana. In that time, the WAR has almost generated enough TP to perform another overpower, which should not only provide more enmity overall, but more damage too. The WAR also has the option to flash while waiting on TP provided he has some mana left.

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People seem to keep thinking of TP management in a bubble of the AoE scenario. Over any lengthy fights, tp loss of overpower becomes a huge factor. Not only for if another AoE scenario comes up, but for MTing as well. Even in ez moad AKs (classic pulling) when I chain pull on Warrior I have to stop and wait 15 or so seconds before the boss to have enough tp to last the boss fight (this isn't even with fracture). I play both WAR and PLD and I'd take flash spam all day over Overpower. Sure the damage is nice, but the ability to seamlessly move from AoE > ST without TP worries is a huge benefit.

This isn't of course even thinking of WP SRs where bottoming out your TP on PLD to pull literally has no detrimental effect, and your resource pools of both are more then manageable. This Enmity modifier really is a nice plus for Warriors that'll help balance out these differences.

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Originally Posted by PArcher

The only way I can think of that a WAR will build up TP to get another OP off in that time is if he does nothing else...OP is 130 TP, and you regen I think 70 or 80 every three seconds or so (not sure on exact numbers, sorry, but I know its not enough to regen enough for OP every tick). So in order to do that, you have to not use any abilites that use TP while waiting for it to regen...which makes the PAL's regen better, since they are still doing something productive as they regen (yes, Flash for WAR too, and your Wrath abilities, but if your MP is out or you're not Infuriated...)

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Exactly, don't do anything else, regen TP and just overpower when you can. I'm pretty sure it's 60 TP every GCD (2.5s). So every ~3.167 GCD you get off another Overpower. Overpower does both damage and generates threat. So as long as you've got more than 3 targets (you can target cycle easily with 3 or fewer targets to save TP), it seems at least as good at both enmity generation and damage compared to fast -> riot -> flash. Especially since you'll be able to throw in an occasional flash during the down time as you regen mana for that. This should be more pronounced with the 2.1 changes.

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Originally Posted by Traek

People seem to keep thinking of TP management in a bubble of the AoE scenario. Over any lengthy fights, tp loss of overpower becomes a huge factor. Not only for if another AoE scenario comes up, but for MTing as well. Even in ez moad AKs (classic pulling) when I chain pull on Warrior I have to stop and wait 15 or so seconds before the boss to have enough tp to last the boss fight (this isn't even with fracture). I play both WAR and PLD and I'd take flash spam all day over Overpower. Sure the damage is nice, but the ability to seamlessly move from AoE > ST without TP worries is a huge benefit.

This isn't of course even thinking of WP SRs where bottoming out your TP on PLD to pull literally has no detrimental effect, and your resource pools of both are more then manageable. This Enmity modifier really is a nice plus for Warriors that'll help balance out these differences.

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Chain pulling AK or WP, you can manage your TP such that you shouldn't need to wait for more than a couple seconds at most if you mix in flashes and swap to target cycling a little early. It's definitely harder on the WAR. You have to balance your TP vs. threat on each target instead of just mashing the AoE button, but it's doable. Especially if you lead off with some combination of unchained, berserk, inner release and/or vengeance to secure a solid threat lead during the initial attacks and work in a heavy -> maim as fast as possible to boost those overpowers even further.

TP consumption will also be eased come 2.1 when we can use wrath abilities freely without consequence (no TP for 1 round) and the TP costs for storm's eye/path are reduced.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Chain pulling AK or WP, you can manage your TP such that you shouldn't need to wait for more than a couple seconds at most if you mix in flashes and swap to target cycling a little early. It's definitely harder on the WAR. You have to balance your TP vs. threat on each target instead of just mashing the AoE button, but it's doable. Especially if you lead off with some combination of unchained, berserk, inner release and/or vengeance to secure a solid threat lead during the initial attacks and work in a heavy -> maim as fast as possible to boost those overpowers even further.

TP consumption will also be eased come 2.1 when we can use wrath abilities freely without consequence (no TP for 1 round) and the TP costs for storm's eye/path are reduced.

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I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying. There is no TP penalty for PLD AoE spam. Manageable threat in all AoE scenarios as well as seamless transition to ST with net TP gain (instead of Overpower's loss), not to mention net MP gain for AoE situations while STing, makes PLD's position a better one. I agree in 2.1 fixes will most likely remedy *most* these situations, that is why it is needed. The fact PLDs see "enmity increase" and get all jelly just shows they don't fundamentally understand Warrior. Warrior's who say "it was good enough" aren't looking at the bigger picture.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Exactly, don't do anything else, regen TP and just overpower when you can. I'm pretty sure it's 60 TP every GCD (2.5s).

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Nope, all recovery and DoT ticks are synchronized. They are all 3 seconds. It would take 3 ticks to regen enough TP for Overpower, so 9 seconds. One second below 4 GCDs

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Originally Posted by Skies

Nope, all recovery and DoT ticks are synchronized. They are all 3 seconds. It would take 3 ticks to regen enough TP for Overpower, so 9 seconds. One second below 4 GCDs

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Either way, you only need to wait 3 ticks when you're down to 0, and after 3 ticks you will only have to wait 2 ticks for the next 5 applications. Overpower is generating threat and doing damage to all targets while fast->riot->flash is only doing damage to one target, and probably not generating much, if any additional enmity or damage after you've bottom'd out your AoE resource pool.

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Originally Posted by Traek

I think you missed the whole point of what I was saying. There is no TP penalty for PLD AoE spam. Manageable threat in all AoE scenarios as well as seamless transition to ST with net TP gain (instead of Overpower's loss), not to mention net MP gain for AoE situations while STing, makes PLD's position a better one. I agree in 2.1 fixes will most likely remedy *most* these situations, that is why it is needed. The fact PLDs see "enmity increase" and get all jelly just shows they don't fundamentally understand Warrior. Warrior's who say "it was good enough" aren't looking at the bigger picture.

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I know there's no TP penalty for the PLD. The TP penalty for the WAR means it's harder to play. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. But the WAR can currently be just as effective, with the combination of buffs for overpower and using flash, infuriate->wrath moves, and just waiting to conserve TP. And he is currently much better for enmity generation at the beginning of a fight since all his buffs work to boost overpower (and berserk even boosts flash), but nothing the PLD has boosts flash (well, save the base shield oath bonus).

In my mind 2.1 is going to make good WARs the much preferred AoE tank. Giving a PLD access to Overpower would at least make that more balanced since they can use overpower with fight or flight to generate AoE enmity faster. But they do so while stressing their own TP pool, which seems like a valid trade off.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I know there's no TP penalty for the PLD. The TP penalty for the WAR means it's harder to play. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. But the WAR can currently be just as effective, with the combination of buffs for overpower and using flash, infuriate->wrath moves, and just waiting to conserve TP. And he is currently much better for enmity generation at the beginning of a fight since all his buffs work to boost overpower (and berserk even boosts flash), but nothing the PLD has boosts flash (well, save the base shield oath bonus).

In my mind 2.1 is going to make good WARs the much preferred AoE tank. Giving a PLD access to Overpower would at least make that more balanced since they can use overpower with fight or flight to generate AoE enmity faster. But they do so while stressing their own TP pool, which seems like a valid trade off.

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Sure, PLD can have Overpower if it OOTPs them in 3 uses, like our current flash does. They can regen TP while they are flashing and it'll all even out..... Can we get a TP regen ability like Riot Blade for MP as well? All things being even right? Honestly I wish they'd just take out Flash from Warrior and make us self sufficient in that department. Flash is just a token ability used because its AoE instead of Cone.

You keep saying the same things. Your basic answer for Warrior OOTP is *sit around for TP*. While we are doing that PLD is STing, riot blading, flashing, and storing up TP for their next ST pickup. If enmity generation is even in the end (or leaning toward warrior), who wants to sit around all day sitting on their thumbs because they spammed an ability a few times?

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

Either way, you only need to wait 3 ticks when you're down to 0, and after 3 ticks you will only have to wait 2 ticks for the next 5 applications. Overpower is generating threat and doing damage to all targets while fast->riot->flash is only doing damage to one target, and probably not generating much, if any additional enmity or damage after you've bottom'd out your AoE resource pool.

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This is inaccurate, since the PLD AOE threat pool is MP, which fast > riot > flash means you have enough to flash again in 2 GCD (instead of 3), and you can still, since you are bottoming your MP, continue using your weapons skills (more than the 4 Flash WAR have with a full MP bar). Bottomline, PLD have the ability to regenerate and pretty much indefinitely sustain their AOE threat, so WAR has no advantage here beyond maybe snap aggro (discounting CoS, which you shouldn't as it costs no resources whatsoever).

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

I know there's no TP penalty for the PLD. The TP penalty for the WAR means it's harder to play. There's nothing wrong with that in my mind. But the WAR can currently be just as effective, with the combination of buffs for overpower and using flash, infuriate->wrath moves, and just waiting to conserve TP. And he is currently much better for enmity generation at the beginning of a fight since all his buffs work to boost overpower (and berserk even boosts flash), but nothing the PLD has boosts flash (well, save the base shield oath bonus).

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You again ignore CoS, and compare OP + the entire WAR Suite to Flash, and find PLD lacking. Go figure. Still, I agree that WAR is better for enmity generation at the beginning of the fight. That doesn't make them a better AOE tank though. In my mind that's fair, since they have to go through all those contortions to compared to just...hitting Flash + CoS. And after 10 flashes you fast > riot a couple of times.

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Originally Posted by Giantbane

In my mind 2.1 is going to make good WARs the much preferred AoE tank. Giving a PLD access to Overpower would at least make that more balanced since they can use overpower with fight or flight to generate AoE enmity faster. But they do so while stressing their own TP pool, which seems like a valid trade off.

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No, because you are still forgetting the AOE blind on Flash, the 360 application. Oh and Shield Oath is more effective on multiple mobs while Defiance has no such scaling. WAR have never been the better AOE *tank*, and won't be after 2.1. Giving PLD access to OP means they will be able to perform as many OP as a WAR, then Flash + Blind 2.5 times as many times as a WAR, while also having CoS on CD and better survivability. That's your definition of a valid tradeoff? I'm not saying WAR will be a *bad* AOE tank, but they'll never be better at the tanking aspect, just because they are better on the initial emnity generation.