Dark Knight Megathread

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Let me say what removing the MP cost to TBN, its connection to Flood/Edge, and increasing the cooldown to 25s will do. It will remove the DPS being connected to TBN, it will remove the need to hold onto a resource for TBN when only PLD (who arguably has nothing else to use theirs own) is the only other job who uses a resource for this. It will remove the need to ignore every other problem on DRK because TBN, while still powerful with these changes, will not be usable all the time, thus highlighting the problems DRK has without it and making it easier to actually adjust the job. If one ability is the sole reason your job isn't getting meaningful changes, then I'm sorry, the ability has to be adjusted or removed for the good of the job.

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This essentially. Maybe then it would highlight the problem that is Dark Mind, and maybe we'd get an adjustment so that it works on all damage (and maybe brought down to 15% all damage mitigation?). All in all TBN in its current state has been plaguing the jobs design for too long imo & I'd take any change to its current design that goes away from it being tied to a damage resource.

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Originally Posted by Deathshiro

We'll agree to disagree with TBN, I don't know how getting rid of the mana cost on an ability you ideally only use once a minute (to avoid dps loss outside of raid buffs) and upping the cd to be in line with the other tanks CD's is a "Nerf" but thats besides the point.

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If you understand the theory that using TBN more than once per minute is a DPS loss because it drags an Edge outside of raid buffs, then you should realize that removing the Dark Arts charge entirely is automatically a nerf in a DPS-optimized scenario because it means you can't shift an Edge from your 60s window to your 120s window. Realistically though, we should also recognize that "You can only use it once per minute" is a bit of an outdated viewpoint, because the only 60s raid buff is Trick Attack, and Ninja isn't exactly mandatory these days. Realistically, it's more like "You can use TBN all you want on every odd-numbered minute, but you want to use it exactly once on every even-numbered minute."

(There is a problem with the skill there, in that DPS optimization does require that you limit your usages of TBN when you should be encouraged to use it as often as possible in situations where it will break, but the solution to that is to allow the storage of multiple charges, not to remove the interaction entirely.)

However, outside of DPS-optimized scenarios, where we only need consider its defensive properties, TBN's most valuable trait is its shorter, 15-second recast compared to the other tank skills. In a sustained-damage situation, like a dungeon pull, TBN's shield is roughly equivalent to a 1500 potency shield. On a 15s recast, the mitigation throughput there is roughly 100p/sec. What you are asking for is an 800 potency HoT to be added to it, in exchange for increasing the cooldown to 25s. That reduces its mitigation throughput to 92p/sec, including the heal. That is an enormous loss of power in those sustained-damage situations.

On top of that, you're asking for the heal to come in the least useful form possible: a weak, 200p/tick HoT. If we're talking about a tankbuster situation rather than sustained incoming damage, that 200p HoT is going to do exactly as much to save you from any followup damage as the current version of TBN. The useful version of what you're asking for, which is still a nerf, is an instant 800 potency heal. But that's not even an area where TBN even needs help; healing and shielding are both flat-value mitigation/recovery mechanics, and in terms of flat-value mitigation/recovery, TBN is already very strong, at roughly 1500 equivalent potency to HoC's 900 and Holy Sheltron's 1000, though Bloodwhetting definitely rules that particular roost at 2000.

Because of that high amount of flat-value mitigation, TBN acquits itself quite well against incoming damage that lands in the range of 40-60% of your max HP (which, realistically, is the most relevant tank damage in high-end content, because it tends to come while the healers are busy with their own mechanics or party healing, instead of the fight grinding to a halt for a very slow, telegraphed heavy tankbuster to come in). On a per-use basis, it tends to be marginally more effective than the other skills at the point of impact, then marginally less effective once the other skills' healing has come in. This is already completely fair and in-line with the other tank skills, because that 'marginally less effective in total' drawback is more than made up for by the lower 15-second cooldown.

Where TBN does fall short, in comparison to the other tank skills, is against the kind of extremely-heavy tankbuster - something dealing 90-120% of your max HP after Rampart, Shadow Wall, etc - where flat-value mitigation and healing has relatively little value. In those cases, TBN does fall massively behind the other skills, but the solution is not to give it more flat-value mitigation and healing, but rather to pair it with the percentage-based mitigation that gives the other skills their huge advantage to begin with. This is the purpose of Oblation, except Oblation is too weak. The solution here isn't to change TBN, but the change Oblation to make it better at shoring up this particular weakness of TBN.

Ultimately, there's little value to be gained in adding a HoT to TBN, and the skill is mostly just fine the way it is (aside from needing to allow you to store multiple DA charges), offering unique gameplay from the other tanks' equivalent skills, with a healthy balance of advantages and disadvantages that make it sometimes-better, sometimes-worse than its counterparts. That's what balance in game design is supposed to look like, and it's what we should be encouraging and asking for more of.
In the one area where TBN falls so short that it's unfit for purpose, it has a companion skill meant to help it through: Oblation - except that Oblation is meant to make TBN feel powerful in those scenarios, but is so weak itself that it only manages to make TBN feel slightly-less-weak. Oblation absolutely should get a buff (or more involved rework) that makes it effective enough to serve its purpose when paired with TBN.


But, no, it should absolutely not be changed into a risk-free skill with a slightly more potent effect in exchange for a massive nerf to its strongest and most useful point, it's short recast time. If that's what you want out of a tank, three out of four of the tanks in this game are already giving you exactly what you're asking for. You don't need all of them to cater to your specific tastes at the expense of those of us who prefer this skill the way it is.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I agree with this sooooo much and honestly I feel that many that are calling for TBN to just be turned into a 25 second recast defensive with no MP cost are just repeating what others, particularly a certain popular streamer, have said without really stopping to think about what the ripple effects of such changes would result in.

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Yeah, the fact that these bandwagon ideas are catching on so much and seem to just be oblivious to the actual effects of what they're asking for is really alarming.

Ignoring playstyle issues in favour of talking about efficacy - and my position has always been that post-5.0 DRK has had playstyle issues, but not efficacy ones - Dark Knight's current position is probably best described as 'in a decent spot, but its position there is precarious'. It's definitely been shortchanged in a handful of key places, and it has some legitimate QoL issues, but it also has some pretty strong advantages that make it uniquely well-suited to tanking certain parts of the current raid tier, and many of these common suggestions are people basically explicitly asking for those advantages to be nerfed and taken away in exchange for miniscule improvements to convenience and basically fixing Xeno's personal pet peeves.

What a lot of people actually seem to want is a glamour prism that lets you play Warrior with a Dark Knight skin on top and all your skills nerfed by 5%.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Let me say what removing the MP cost to TBN, its connection to Flood/Edge, and increasing the cooldown to 25s will do. It will remove the DPS being connected to TBN, it will remove the need to hold onto a resource for TBN when only PLD (who arguably has nothing else to use theirs own) is the only other job who uses a resource for this.

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But why does that even matter? Why does DRK have to have this aspect of its game-play, arguably its most unique aspect, be just like the other tanks when it can be just as effective staying pretty much the same as it is?
I find it absolutely mind boggling how often I see players lambast and rant about homogenization and then turn around and ask for more of it.

With how scripted the fights are, it's easy to plan your resource usage so that you have a TBN in your pocket for a buster. It's also not that hard to keep from using MP spenders to the point of emptying your MP pool.
Again, I ask, if you don't like that kind of game-play, then why are you playing a job based more on resource management?

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

It will remove the need to ignore every other problem on DRK because TBN, while still powerful with these changes, will not be usable all the time, thus highlighting the problems DRK has without it and making it easier to actually adjust the job.

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So we get to the real crux of the argument. You simply want to diminish TBN, knowing that it will make DRK worse, just so that you can then in turn point to DRK and say "see DRK is bad, make these changes that I want because it will fix the problems". In the end all you are really doing is trying to get something to break, so that you can declare it broken in an attempt to have it be swapped out with what you want.
Also any supposed issues that would magically be exposed by limiting TBN are issues that were created by those very changes. Actual existing issues are already apparent, if they weren't there wouldn't be the vast number of threads and posts talking about them.
Blaming TBN like this is simply scapegoating. People want certain changes and are not getting them, and so want someone and something to blame to make it easier to rationalize, and TBN was an easy target with how prominent it is in DRKs' kit.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If one ability is the sole reason your job isn't getting meaningful changes, then I'm sorry, the ability has to be adjusted or removed for the good of the job.

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Where is the objective proof that this is the case, that TBN is somehow stymieing all potential meaningful change for DRK?
I have only ever seen such sentiment from suppositional quips and arguments by players, much like the the one that you are making, and then people repeating such over and over until they believe it to be true.

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Originally Posted by Crater

Yeah, the fact that these bandwagon ideas are catching on so much and seem to just be oblivious to the actual effects of what they're asking for is really alarming.

Ignoring playstyle issues in favour of talking about efficacy - and my position has always been that post-5.0 DRK has had playstyle issues, but not efficacy ones - Dark Knight's current position is probably best described as 'in a decent spot, but its position there is precarious'. It's definitely been shortchanged in a handful of key places, and it has some legitimate QoL issues, but it also has some pretty strong advantages that make it uniquely well-suited to tanking certain parts of the current raid tier, and many of these common suggestions are people basically explicitly asking for those advantages to be nerfed and taken away in exchange for miniscule improvements to convenience and basically fixing Xeno's personal pet peeves.

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While somewhat alarming, I am not at all surprised. I mean we have both been trying to push back against stuff like this for a few expacs at this point, consistently giving the warning "be careful what you wish for, you just might get it" and of course having such warnings fall on deaf ears.

I too agree that DRK is "functional" at a base level but is a bit behind in some places relative to the other tanks, and that it's biggest problems are QoL issues and a lack of depth in game-play, particularly the offensive game-play.
I just wish that people would see that creating problems where they don't necessarily exist is what actually takes focus off of the legitimate issues and not an easy scapegoat like TBN.

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Originally Posted by Crater

... allow you to store multiple DA charges ...

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I have been wanting and asking for that since they first made the change to TBN and Dark Arts.
Devs, please please please do this. The added flexibility and resource management strategy that it would provide would so easily outweigh any effort it would take to implement. Want to stop the Enhanced Unmend memeing? I can recommend a great trait replacement.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

But why does that even matter? Why does DRK have to have this aspect of its game-play, arguably its most unique aspect, be just like the other tanks when it can be just as effective staying pretty much the same as it is?
I find it absolutely mind boggling how often I see players lambast and rant about homogenization and then turn around and ask for more of it.

With how scripted the fights are, it's easy to plan your resource usage so that you have a TBN in your pocket for a buster. It's also not that hard to keep from using MP spenders to the point of emptying your MP pool.
Again, I ask, if you don't like that kind of game-play, then why are you playing a job based more on resource management?

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Bringing the cooldown in line with the other tank main cooldowns isn't a bad thing, and it isn't TBN's only unique aspect. Look at Bloodwhetting's mitigation with healing per hit, HoC's barrier with Excog, Holy Shelltron's block and HoT. None are the same as TBN.

The problem with TBN is simply that you WANT it to pop, something you want no other shield to do in the game. If it doesn't pop, it's wasted MP because it's attached to your damage output due to being the same cost as Edge/Flood, something no other tank deals with. You can plan your resources, but all it takes is damage being mitigated a little too much, and then the shield will not pop, meaning you wasted MP that could have gone into an attack.

This is something I probably wouldn't be so angry about if the other tanks had similar issues, such as if Bloodwhetting required 50 gauge, HoC required a cartridge, and there were offensive moves that used gauge on PLD. Because at least then all the tanks would be dealing with the same issue of having to keep resources ready to use their unique cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

So we get to the real crux of the argument. You simply want to diminish TBN, knowing that it will make DRK worse, just so that you can then in turn point to DRK and say "see DRK is bad, make these changes that I want because it will fix the problems". In the end all you are really doing is trying to get something to break, so that you can declare it broken in an attempt to have it be swapped out with what you want.
Also any supposed issues that would magically be exposed by limiting TBN are issues that were created by those very changes. Actual existing issues are already apparent, if they weren't there wouldn't be the vast number of threads and posts talking about them.
Blaming TBN like this is simply scapegoating. People want certain changes and are not getting them, and so want someone and something to blame to make it easier to rationalize, and TBN was an easy target with how prominent it is in DRKs' kit.

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No, it's a case of that either all or none of the tanks need to be using their resources for both damage and defense. Right now only DRK does this, and it does not feel good for DRK (on top of our other issues like Dark Mind and a lack of kit synergy, WHICH WE HAD BACK IN HW).

I'm blaming TBN btw, only because every single person uses it as an excuse for why we can't get anything. Any time somebody asks for any kind of meaningful change people point to either our current DPS or TBN as a blasted excuse for why the job is fine when everybody here knows it is not.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

Where is the objective proof that this is the case, that TBN is somehow stymieing all potential meaningful change for DRK?
I have only ever seen such sentiment from suppositional quips and arguments by players, much like the the one that you are making, and then people repeating such over and over until they believe it to be true.

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Look at any thread where people state DRK feels bad to play or is a bad tank, almost all of them will point to TBN as to the reason why it's fine. Even the devs seem to think DRK is fine just because of TBN, else they'd have given us better mitigation than just Oblation.

Hello. First time poster, but I’ve been a DRK main since I started playing in HW, wanted to leave some feedback for the class.

I loved the job in HW, actively disliked it in SB, had a lot of hopes for the future of it in ShB but those hopes were dashed in EW.

I feel like DRK in its current state has reached a design dead-end. It has no clear job identity and needs a proper, clear design path going forward. To illustrate my point, new additions to DRK were basically “just more oGCDs”, and to even add those, SE had to leave Abyssal Drain out of single target rotation to make space for them.

To be more precise with the issues I have with DRK:

1. Too many cool animations and abilities were removed in previous expansions. Abilities like Power Slash, Scourge, original Delirium and Sole Survivor were much more satisfying visually than both Syphon Strike and Souleater, which are used extensively ever since Stromblood. I also think giving Salt and Darkness same casting animation as Dark Missionary was a bad decision.
   
2. DRK has way too many traits that only serve as a levelling bloat. For example, there is no reason Enhanced Blackblood II needs to exist when it only affects instances between level 62 and 66. Enhanced Plunge also fits this category, as other tanks get charges on their gap-closers from the get-go. Enhanced Unmend is too niche to be actively useful, and clashes with the decision to give gap-closers 2 charges, since you would hold onto a 2nd charge of Plunge if you need to disengage anyway, making the cooldown reduction largely irrelevant.
   
3. Levels of acquisition for abilities needs to be reevalueated. AoE rotation feels dull until level 72, where players get Stalwart Soul. DRK feels naked defensively until level 70, where we get TBN. Dark Missionary should be obtained earlier than level 76, as it stands, it’s the only tank that has no AoE mitigation in Ultimates. Which is extrimely weird, considering that GNB has their equivalent, Heart of Light, at an appropriate level and was released in the same expansion as Dark Missionary.
   
4. Blood weapon is awkward to use. Any ping-related issued cause you to miss out on 600 MP and 10 Blackblood, which is extremely punishing.
   
5. After the opener, there is way too much downtime. DRK is fun to use for 15 seconds and then becomes dull for about 45 seconds before any fun abilities come back.
   
6. Delirium is boring, and is still too similar to Inner Release. As it stands, it’s more flexible than Inner Release, but still feels like a cheap copy of said ability.
   
7. DRK’s kit does not flow together well. Blackblood, MP and various oGCDs work separately from each other and have no connection. This stands in direct opposition to other tanks, whose abilities feel synergistic. Which leads me to my next point:
   
8. Darkside is underwhelming and barely noticable, both in terms of animation and gameplay. I think DRK needs a better-looking Darkside aura. Moreover, Darkside gameplay-wise might as well be passive. I feel like it was much more satisfying when its focus was Mana-drain, instead of Mana-gain in ShB or Mana-Stagnation in SB.
   
9. DRK’s mitigation and healing is subpar without TBN. Specifically, Dark Mind is underwhelming and was only contextually strong in HW. I rarely find myself using this ability aside from certain, rare Tankbusters. DRK can only heal through Souleater and Abyssal Drain, making it very limiting in terms of recovery. Oblation feels weak as well.

I am hoping that these issues will get adressed. I have some ideas as to what could be done to for some of these issues:

• Bringing back Sole Survivor as a 120s Cooldown would help DRK with its healing issues. If needed, make it only recover HP instead of MP as well.
  
• Shadowskin could be used at low levels as a “weaker TBN”, that, for example, only shielded for 10% HP and only be cast on yourself, and then be upgraded to TBN at lvl 70.
  
• Salt and Darkness could use the old Salted Earth casting animation. That way, you would cast Salted Earth (Punching the ground animation) and follow it with Salt and Darkess animation (Push the arm back animation).

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

Look at any thread where people state DRK feels bad to play or is a bad tank, almost all of them will point to TBN as to the reason why it's fine. Even the devs seem to think DRK is fine just because of TBN, else they'd have given us better mitigation than just Oblation.

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The first sentence is hyperbole and far from factual.
"Every single person uses it as an excuse", "Any time somebody asks for any kind of meaningful change", "almost all of them point to TBN". These are all huge hyperbole red flags and completely ignore the actual context and variance in the many discussions that have occurred over the years.
You also act like the other tank jobs are devoid of such kind of asinine arguments for why they shouldn't get desired changes. I mean should we pretend like the requests for PLD dps buffs being met with "no, because PLD support abilities" isn't happening right now and hasn't consistently happened in the past? All the tanks have this kind of crap thrown at them in one way or another, that doesn't mean that we take it seriously and especially doesn't mean that we ask for changes based on it.
You are taking the entirety of all DRK issues and the ensuing discussions on them, balling it all up into a huge singular thing, selecting specific parts and then conflating them in order to have something easy to point at as the source of blame for everything. You are scapegoating.

The second sentence is, as I stated earlier, pure blatant supposition.

If you want to make reasoned arguments that have objective, substantive backing, I will listen to and value your points. What you are doing right now is however not that.

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Originally Posted by Hyde_Evydance

I loved the job in HW, actively disliked it in SB, had a lot of hopes for the future of it in ShB but those hopes were dashed in EW.

I feel like DRK in its current state has reached a design dead-end.

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This is very similar to how I've felt about DRK through the expansions. I also agree with all your points in the list of issues.

It seems like much of the discussion regarding DRK has turned into debate over how the job is balanced with the rest of the tanks defensively, with a particular focus on TBN. While there might be some issues with defensive parity it is a relatively inconsequential issue as far as wether or not the job is enjoyable. Slapping some more sustain on a few abilities in a haphazard manner is not going to make DRK a fun job, nor will making TBN a copy of another tanks short duration, low recast defensive option.
I think that much of the jobs problems defensively stems from bad design of several abilities, effectiveness only being part of the problem and just trying to make them mimic what other tanks have will not do much for DRK.

Since we're going back to the root of this thread with the news of 6.08, Ill add my ideas back in too, the more realistic ones ofc:

1. Blood Weapon: Change it to stacks like literally everyone is saying, but I personally think 5 charges might feel a bit awkward, so instead of 5 swings giving 600 MP each (total of 3000 MP) I think it would fit better into the rotation as 3 stacks with 1000 MP each (also total of 3000 MP). I think this would make it easier to manage and feel better in the rotation, plus less chance of the boss moving. If not then I do think 5 stacks would still be better then 10s duration anyways.

2. Cure Potencies: Add Cure potency to C&S so it does the same thing as AD, no idea why they added MP regen to AD but not a Cure to C&S. Also, I do think a Cure potency should be added on both Bloodspiller and Quietus, this would make Delirium a solid sustain tool in dungeons on top of getting a fair amount of Blood Gauge in AoE to begin with, would solve all our dungeons woes tbh.

3. Dark Mind: Give it something on top of the reduced magic vuln, so it's not worthless in most content and will help it in sub 70 content. Either a regen or a shield it could stack under TBN, or maybe just an effect that the DRK receives minor healing when hit while Dark Mind is active, calling back to it's roots.

4. TBN: Change it so it gives a stack of Dark Arts whether it breaks or expires, so it's not wasted if used incorrectly. Every other tank can use their main defensive skill in many ways and instances, whereas the DRK must reserve it for busters or large dungeon pulls cause if it doesn't break you're punished for it. Yes good players will use this to increase DPS, but it's a tank, a small DPS increase shouldn't be a reason to avoid QoL.

5. Living Dead: Completely remove the negatives in Walking Dead. Living Dead should stay the same and when you hit 1 HP it should simply read "cannot be reduce past 1 HP by most attacks for 10s." The longer CD still makes that worse then Holm, and no one better try and tell me "that's just a free 20s" or some stupid shit like that.

From there the only way to make further improvements would be a full rework, which I'm not against, but I don't believe we will ever get one so I'd be fine with at least this much.

Bonus: Dark Missionary: Add a shield to it, the WARs Shake it Off shields, heals, and buffs itself with some of it's other defensives, so why does ours only block minimal magic damage? Let us actually be a barrier tank and provide barriers for the party/raid.

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Originally Posted by Hyde_Evydance

• Bringing back Sole Survivor as a 120s Cooldown would help DRK with its healing issues. If needed, make it only recover HP instead of MP as well.

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I get the nostalgia value, but do we really want to use up a button to have a 2-minute cooldown... that gives less than a TBN's worth of healing (not shielding, healing), and requires the enemy's death for full effect?

We've so many other ways to build in healing on demand. We don't need to make it badly constrained by both cooldown and conditions.

/agreed on most other notes in that list

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

I have been wanting [to be able to store multiple DA charges] and asking for that since they first made the change to TBN and Dark Arts.
Devs, please please please do this. The added flexibility and resource management strategy that it would provide would so easily outweigh any effort it would take to implement. Want to stop the Enhanced Unmend memeing? I can recommend a great trait replacement.

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Why would we want to use up a trait just to allow for ~23-50 extra potency per minute by making our burst periods / (re)openers more crowded on an already DPS-leading tank with already crowded openers?

Hell, Enhanced Unmend is already more useful than, say, Warrior's equivalent 3rd charge of Onslaught (as such can only at best be used to trade any and all instant mobility for 90 seconds Onslaught, and PR, into raid buffs). Just buff its design to actually be significant or give us something fun and impactful for our gameplay instead of doubling down on fuel for the "DRK's damage is fine so its kit is fine" and "'Do all the things!' opener" memes.

Instead of linking abyssal drain with C&S to get rid of one ogcd in our bloated opener, why couldn’t they just make it an mp spender that replaces one edge of shadow per minute?

Buff up it’s potency to be slightly higher than edge say 480 potency and heal for the same amount on a 60s cd and cost 3000 mp. Give it a 50% fall off so it’s not too strong for aoe.

Now our actions per minute literally doesn’t change while alleviating some self healing as well as abyssal drain being impactful for the first time in years.