Big mistakes? I've yet to see him able to grasp even the most basic math. There's a difference between "mistakes" and "complete and utter ignorance".Quote:
Originally Posted by Tronic
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10-04-2013, 12:57 AMKitru
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10-04-2013, 01:05 AMNovaLevossidaActually, 90% or so of the posts that say warriors are fine are from paladins who haven't taken WAR up to 50. I don't mean to sound condescending, but "WAR is fine!" doesn't help when it's not true and also coming from PLDs, the tank class which is more than fine. It's really irritating to see so many threads about what the job is lacking and to constantly see PLDs come in and say the job is fine, presumably from lack of experience / knowledge or outright spite.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yiell
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10-04-2013, 02:23 AMRhained
Im not 100% sure as i havnt played warrior but it feels like they scale better from gear than paladin. Could be wrong though, but that does explain if devs excelled with them when tower was in (they prob also tested with different gear levels).
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10-04-2013, 02:37 AMSwordCoheirIt pretty much is moot though, you can compare WAR/PLD gear to any DD and it's comparable in stats, the secondary stats might be a little different but they're tailored a bit more to that jobs sepecific function. Even the Sword and Shields (stat wise) were divided to 2:1 ratio to keep PLD's from being ahead of WAR's and other jobs statistically. The only distinctive advantage PLD has over WAR or any DD gear wise is just having the secondary ability to block with the shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
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10-04-2013, 02:38 AMSwordCoheirThing about the math is all the data is relative to your input, and most of the time it doesn't neccessairly account for experience or rotations. I've heard alot of interesting ideas that I've never seen anyone else use that could be invaluable, but I still hear tons of people say silly stuff like you have to eat some Slipstreams on Garuda yet you can dodge every single one of them without consequence if you know what your doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JormungandrVanagandr
For example, I have a buddy in my FC who was wondering how come I was doing more damage though we were both wearing the same gear on MNK yet he has a +1 Relic. It came down to rotations, I was popping Blood for Blood/Internal release every chance I got, and using Perfect Balance > Snap Punch x3 to build up Greased Lightning's effect when it was down, and throwing out my Howling Fists only with B4B and IR up usually critting multiple mobs for 500+. -
10-04-2013, 03:09 AMDerzaHuh you link us to a post by a warrior that is in full AF gear and white accessories and a green weapon - and tell us he has the class mastered? That was a joke right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Yiell
^ couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
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10-04-2013, 03:14 AMHiirNoivlI liked your post, Sword.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
That's what I've been noticing too. I called for people to post their builds and parses but all I ever get out of the naysayers are hypothetical reasons for why WAR is not as good as PLD/is not viable for endgame. They don't post parses, they don't post builds or stat allocations, they don't post rotations and they don't post videos. I wonder if some of them actually play WAR to be honest.
Now in my experience I've tried some suggestions that they've made and some of what they've posted has turned out to be true. In most cases, holding Wrath V is better than using Inner Beast unless your Inner Beast is pumped really high. I've learned that based on the theorycrafting, Bloodbath needs to be more significant than just using it on its own, etc.
So the theorycrafting isn't ALL wrong. However, when I see people's issues that they have with WAR and saying that it's not viable at all or that it's broken, I find that there are ways in-Game to remedy the "problems with WAR". For example, finding ways to increase your damage dealt. Using abilities in combination to maximize their effectiveness. Learn to work the mechanics of the fight to your advantage.
I still envy PLDs their debuffs... man I wish I could stun every GCD... Or blind my enemies. But I just have to deal with that my own way.
My experience and my rotations have overcome WARs supposed limitations thus far. And while I'm still looking forward to Turns 3 and 4, I'm feeling really good about WARs viability at endgame currently.
EDIT: Derza, You've posted nothing. Yes, I did show DPS as high as 168 on stationary targets because people were saying that WAR doesn't DPS more than PLD. I also posted parses to show that WAR crit Rate surpasses what it should be in theory. I've posted Videos so you can see what I'm doing and all people say was "Coil Please" and they didn't pay attention to what I was doing, or how well it was working (I use much of the same methods on Garuda as I do on Caduceus except the cooldowns are more spread out.)
I'm showing you plenty but you close your eyes and just keep repeating the same theoretical gibberish. People go with PLD cause they don't know any better, and they're fool into believing that people can play the game as well as they theorycraft. Which is becoming more and more obvious that theory is just that. Sometimes practice belies the theory.
But keep clinging to your charts and numbers. We could have cleared Turn 2 yesterday, but it was midnight and I was gonna start derping any minute. -
10-04-2013, 03:21 AMDerzaThe thing i don't think you understand is... All the warriors CD's as well as IB used in perfect rotation is SOMETIMES enough in hard hitting encounters to overcome the difference in a paladin that uses no CD's and is just in shield oath. In any fight where a boss does about 400 dps (closer to 350 vs a paladin that uses any cooldowns) a warrior is going to require a shit ton more healing, Having a good rotation /optimized gear is only pushing you to the point of being as good as a no CD using paladin tanking.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
And what has your parsing shown us? Do you get any tanking stats out of it? I think all you do is show dps and that somehow changes everything? I mean calculations have been done using a warrior tank doing 100 ish dps and hitting an average of 2k inner beast heals (way higher than the average really is I should add)... and that puts you at about where you would be equal with a paladin if incoming damage is ~ 400 dps... anything over that and the paladin is better - anything under and the warrior is better. The problem is if the dps is sub 400 dps - its easy content and both classes can do it with no problem, when it gets to 600+ incoming dps warriors have a hard time doing content and all the "mitigation" is being shifted to the healers - so people go with paladins. -
10-04-2013, 03:23 AMThyrllanSE is testing CT and has CT gear to play with on Warrior. Warriors may scale better than PLD and be fine in CT/BC gear, they may not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yiell
SE is also notorious for pretending there is no problems. -
10-04-2013, 03:33 AMKaalan
Tbh, we're weeks ahead of the "WAR isn't viable" I think. Most people complain that there's close to 0 reason to take a WAR over a PLD for most of the game, not that a WAR cannot tank.
The only thing a WAR bring over a PLD, is a little bit of extra damage. But it's not enough. We're like what, 50 DPS higher than an equally geared and played PLD ? At best. While it's nice, in a 8 man situation it's almost nothing.
Since we're so much squishier than a PLD and don't bring any party utility outside of enmity, a WAR should be able to perform close to 75% the DPS of a real DPS job when outside of defiance, and we're verry far from that.
As much as I love WAR, fact is, currently, outside of simple challenge or being nice to your buddy that always pick the "wrong" class (yup that's me), there's no point in bringing a WAR over a PLD for most of the content, and that needs to be issued. -
10-04-2013, 05:11 AMKluya15It's PLD, not PAL. This shows how little you know about tanks in ARR! ;DQuote:
Originally Posted by Faction
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10-04-2013, 05:43 AMLeironCourse you do, you agree with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
DPS parses are meaningless, and it was explained that going all strength barely increased your damage to the point of it being wothwhile.Quote:
Originally Posted by HiirNoivl
The only argument that can be made is strengthening inner beast, even then, you can't make it strong enough to cover the massive boss damage
The rest of your post is just nonsense. -
10-04-2013, 05:55 AMkonfliktiI don't get you people. How can you say itemization is moot, if you got two tanking classes and the other gets more passive mitigation from their gear than the other? If you want to make comparison to DPS classes, it would be equivalent to Dragoon having off-hand that doubled their chance to crit, while still getting the same amount of stats from their weapons as everyone else. It is net gain, something that is in no way compensated in WAR gear. You say it yourself, "distinctive advantage", yet still claim it is moot. To claim that this is moot is denying hard facts.Quote:
It pretty much is moot though, you can compare WAR/PLD gear to any DD and it's comparable in stats, the secondary stats might be a little different but they're tailored a bit more to that jobs sepecific function. Even the Sword and Shields (stat wise) were divided to 2:1 ratio to keep PLD's from being ahead of WAR's and other jobs statistically. The only distinctive advantage PLD has over WAR or any DD gear wise is just having the secondary ability to block with the shield.
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10-04-2013, 07:08 AMNinjiitstuThat isn't true. To simply STR: 3 STR = 1 Damage. Adding 30 STR is 10 damage, which a average Bravura auto attack is around 120~. 10 damage is roughly 8%. That is with Bravura standard. STR becomes better with Bravura +1, as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
The max strength you can get is 465 without a potion(545 with a pot for 15s). For most of us, that is around 40 extra damage, or a increase of 32%.
This is all multiplied by Berserk, Maim, and Storms Eye, Critical Hits, ETC.
You wouldn't be a tank anymore, but to say its worthless is just completely false. -
10-04-2013, 07:38 AMLeironYou are establishing yourself as someone who argues for the sake of arguing and not because there is something to argue. We were referencing from a TANK view. So your entire post? A waste of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Parses are worthless. You do not need to do a parse for Warriors.
Why? Your DPS is piss poor, it contributes little to nothing in long term, which is...everything.
This isn't a game like WoW or RIFT where a Tank can do some nasty DPS comparable to a DPS. If that is what you have in mind, wipe it out.
Str allocating= worthless. It does not affect the damage of your Inner beast nearly enough to make it worthwhile and it detracts from your HP too greatly.
Damage from bosses scales MUCH faster than the 300% heal from IB.
To suggest otherwise is false, so even if we assumed Warriors are fine currently, as the content becomes more and more difficult, Inner Beast becomes weaker and weaker.
DPS parsing is worthless and Warriors are behind. -
10-04-2013, 08:02 AMSwordCoheirAnd yet despite sharing the same attributes and the same purpose, they in no way funtion in the same manner. PLD works proactively utilizing a shield and abilities to help mitigate damage which makes sense, WAR's reactively heal damage to lessen the healers strain and has effective workarounds to defiances damage penalties where PLD doesn't. The WAR's self heal capability needs a bit of work I admit after playing around on it a little, but that comes from it's own job design and potency factors and not from gear which effectively is the same for all classes stat wise. And really it's not all that exclusive to PLDs as mages can wear them in the same manner as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
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10-04-2013, 09:11 AMNinjiitstuNo, we are referencing Warriors. Hence the OP title. It was your assumption of tank, not the other way around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
1: Having 250~ish DPS is not piss poor. That is just about the top end of what everyone else can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
2: DPS Parsing is not worthless. It has plenty of valuable information.
3: Why are you leveling a warrior then, kiddo? Your level 36. You have a 50 PLD. Shocker there, btw. -
10-04-2013, 09:48 AMLeironYou're not smart, you're not witty, you're not impressing anyone, you're a fool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
You know what's witty, asking you what role Warrior's fulfill. Take your time, I know you're a bit slower than most.
I laughed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
DPS parsing worthless for tanks? Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
The job that I play is completely irrelevant towards my opinions, quit being desperate because you cannot articulate a proper argument to save your life.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Warrior was my original job though if you must know. -
10-04-2013, 10:18 AMchumsy
dont WAR's hit harder than PLD making them essentially another DPS with tanking abilities, of course there has to be some sacrifice to the amount of dmg they can reduce.
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10-04-2013, 10:20 AMNinjiitstuI cannot articulate a argument? All you have said is X is worthless, or I laughed. You have not argued anything. You gave your opinion, which is wrong and has no basis of fact behind it. You are level 36. You don't know what its like. You also haven't set foot in Coils. Not exactly a whole lot of reason to take your opinion, now is there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Leiron
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10-04-2013, 10:30 AMPhreakI wish people would get this idea out of their heads.Quote:
Originally Posted by chumsy
Both a Warrior and Paladin are TANKS and are designed to take, not deal, large amounts of damage.
The differences between these two jobs that fulfill the same role is the fact a Paladin handles incoming damage by outright reducing it while a Warrior is meant to heal back the damage they take (through dealing damage, yes, but this does not mean in any way that the Warrior was designed to produce anywhere near the level of DPS an actual damage dealing role would).
It is supposed to be a difference in styles, not numbers.
Warriors may 'hit harder' in a single move but the numbers have been ran, the DPS POTENTIAL of either tank falls within single digit %s of each other and are still leagues behind a real damage dealer. -
10-04-2013, 10:51 AMLeironYes,Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
DPS parser? No point, Tank DPS is bad in this game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Strength? No point allocating into it. You don't get enough of a gain to allocate going into strength over Vitality right now. So its worthless.
.
So you say, but it isn't so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Which is why you've yet to illustrate why.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
50Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Don't need to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Math doesn't lie.
Its a good thing I am hitting you with facts and not opinion right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjiitstu
Thank you for illustrating how good players, can still be just as ignorant as a level 1 newbie. -
10-04-2013, 01:41 PMkonfliktiMages primary function is not to tank. PLD gets a bonus mitigation slapped on their gear compared to warrior, while this is in no way compensated in either WAR gear or WAR skills. Can you truly say that this is not an oversight?Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
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10-04-2013, 04:42 PMSwordCoheirIt wasn't an oversight, they scaled PLD back because of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
1.0:
+ Block rate/mitigation was based almost entirely on the Type of Shield.
+ Block Rate went up the higher level the mob was over you (you could block 50% of a fight w/o abilities if you were lucky).
+ PLD's could heal
+ Divine Veil gave 100% block rate, AoE regen, could be kept up 1/3 of the time.
+ Aegis Boon blocks and heals what you would've been hit for.
- Couldn't Parry with Shield
2.0:
- Lost all Healing Capabilities
- Shields block and mitigation rely almost entirely on a shields block rate/strength which is scaled much MUCH lower than 1.0.
- Block abilities were reduced in effectiveness (from 100% to 60%)
+ Can parry with shields now.
+/- Can full time -20% mitigation but have reduced damage in turn.
- Mitigation abilities have longer cooldowns and shorter durations -
10-04-2013, 05:54 PMkonflikti
Whatever happened before has no consequence whatsoever on the current situation. What you are arguing is that PLD getting 1.1 from gear compared to WARs 1.0 is moot. PLD gets an additional benefit from gear over WAR, which is not compensated in any way. My argument is that PLD gets more advantage from gear than WAR, while you are stating all manner of unrelated details about developement and balance process. To me it seems that you are arguing for the sake of arguing, while not bringing any meaningful input to this conversation.
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10-04-2013, 06:21 PMDuelleYou missed Sword's point (pun not intended). Mage gear is universal but because of the way BLM and SMN are designed you don't see one trample on the other when content becomes difficult. Same thing for WHM and SCH, despite their gear being also unified. When you have unified gear the gear stops being a factor in any discrepancies and poor performance, leaving the job's inherent mechanics to take the full blame if a job is sub-par or non-optimal.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
If you are bringing up shield blocking then you're not bringing up a gear issue, but a discrepancy due to mechanics. This, once again, goes under "job design", not gear or itemization. -
10-04-2013, 07:04 PMkonfliktiHow is it not a gear issue that PLD gets additional mitigation factor from their gear, which is not compensated in WAR gear in any way? If PLD could not parry, it would be fine. If WAR got some additional bonus to axe, it would be fine. This is an incredibly simple comparison, yet people are trying to divert this particular line of conversation to something different. Somehow PLD gear being WARGEAR+1 is not a gear issue, but mechanics issue?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
+STR, +VIT, +Parry, +Skillspeed != +STR, +VIT, +Parry, +Skillspeed, +Block
I guess you could even say that "unified gear" is not unified.
I do understand your angle of job design though, because the reason PLD has shield is because of job design and because of that there is block too. This is also part of my reason to start arguing against unified gear, because it leaves much less leeway for game designers to balance things between classes/jobs. If you give PLD and WAR the exact same gear, PLD will benefit from it more due to inherent skill based mitigation. If WAR could pick up, say, accessories that had VIT, STR, Accuracy/Crit Rating, instead of VIT, Parry, Accuracy, they could benefit more from their lifeleech abilities. -
10-04-2013, 07:38 PMDuelleBecause PLD isn't WARGEAR+1, but PLD. PLD has mitigation via inherent 20% from Shield oath, shield blocks and parries as well as a selection of cooldowns. WAR was given a ~7% mitigation with slightly higher uptime (Foresight), parries and +healing & self-heals in lieu of mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
Both wear the exact same Heavy Darklight set, both wear the exact same Allaghan set, both wear the exact same Heavy Darksteel set and both wear the exact same gear while leveling. Even from early on its easy to see tank gear was unified, so trying to use gear as a reason for why one is more optimal than the other is not only wrong, but pointless. Sword's comment on sword+shield not being superior to axe stat-wise also holds.
The only difference to draw from this is that PLD can block with shields and WAR cannot, which once again is a mechanics difference and not a gear difference. -
10-04-2013, 08:27 PMkonfliktiWhat stats does PLD need for his mitigation to work at maximum efficiency? None. What stats does WAR need for his (post-)mitigation to work at maximum efficiency? STR, skillspeed, crit rate, accuracy(this is kinda sketchy, since it is requirement to get this to certain level).Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
STR, crit rate and skillspeed are not available on tank accessories and out of the substats, only crit rate is available on limited pieces on armor. WAR thrives on active mitigation due to damage output being the primary factor for self-heals, but the unified armor set is only focused on passive mitigation, which is PLD forte. No other job in the game besides PLD gets an off-hand item with an additional effect that directly buffs their primary function. I am pretty sure BLMs would be bothered too if SMNs had an off-hand that added 20% to their damage while being statwise the same. On the other hand, I would not mind if axes had something specific to them that would counterbalance shield blocking (preferably something that would also be related to WAR skillpool).
I'd also appreciate it if you did not try to put words in my mouth as itemization being the prime reason behind the discrepancy. It is not. But it is also a factor worth considering. -
10-05-2013, 02:06 AMSwordCoheirPLD relies on DPS stats just as much as other jobs. If WAR and PLD share anything in common besides gear it's that their combo multiplers threat is directly affected through damage. The only difference is WAR's only have to focus on their direct damage threat rather than threat and Mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
In turn PLD relies on shield as well as part of their abilities require it to use them, it's not really something thats debatable in PLDs case and the mitigation can be seen as the tradeoff for having too rely on them. Either way my point still stands you're falling back on mechanics and not gear, even if they went back and took away PLD's ability to parry with a shield equipped again it still points to mechanics and job design not gear itself that is the problem. If it were a gear problem the devs would physically change something stat related to shields themselves and not the code that affects game mechanics. -
10-05-2013, 02:54 AMkonfliktiUh... no? PLD can put all their eggs on VIT and still have enough enmity through proper use of their skills. So can WAR, but all the self-heal abilities of WAR will suffer if you do this (except Thrill of Battle, I guess). You are also choosing to forget that DPS can control their enmity gain at will, while PLD also requires less heals due to inherent mitigation, which means they need to generate less enmity to begin with when competing with healers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
Tradeoff of having more mitigation on gear is... better mitigation skillset than their tanking counterpart? Jeez, PLDs sure have it hard. At this point I don't really care if you want to call it itemization problem or mechanics/job design problem. The point is that PLD gets more passive mitigation for the same gear as WAR, which is not compensated on WAR gear in any way. You could compensate this by WAR weapon having more damage, WAR weapon having separate parry modifier or plethora of other things that would make WAR that one bit more unique when it comes to gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by SwordCoheir
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10-05-2013, 03:13 AMDuelleOnce again, you're bringing up design differences, not gearing differences. It also does not undo the fact that both jobs get the exact same gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
Here's where your camp needs to make up their mind. Are WAR self heals there to make up for lack of shield blocking, there to replace the mitigation PLD has, or to save you from kissing dirt during damage spikes. Design-wise you can't have something do all three because if it does it is also probably overpowered as all hell in anything that is not end-game PvE.Quote:
WAR thrives on active mitigation due to damage output being the primary factor for self-heals, but the unified armor set is only focused on passive mitigation, which is PLD forte.
There's a reason WAR's forebear, WoW's Blood DK and their Blood Shield mechanic, has been repeatedly brought up in these discussions. And I agree that WAR is missing something from a mechanics standpoint.Quote:
On the other hand, I would not mind if axes had something specific to them that would counterbalance shield blocking (preferably something that would also be related to WAR skillpool).
It would only be worth considering if FFXIV had an equivalent to stat reforging and had tier sets.Quote:
But it is also a factor worth considering.
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10-05-2013, 03:50 AMkonfliktiHow hard it is to understand that by design, WAR requires different things from gear than PLD? Unified gear is simply lazy design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Currently, they need to make up for 10-25% less EHP received from heals, shield blocking and any other defensive cooldown that PLD has. I have said it is at least once already, gear difference is not the big thing, but it is something worth looking into too. The big divider is Shield Oath vs. Defiance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Why cannot FFXIV have more diversity in gear? Has SE ran out of bytes or what? Is there some unspoken rule of linear gear progression?Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
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10-05-2013, 03:57 AMPessimiStickIt's just a design decision. The more diversity you add, the more players will want something like a token system instead. Nothing is more obnoxious to a raid than having items drop that are either garbage, or unusable by the people in the raid. Homogenizing the gear for certain roles helps cut down on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
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10-05-2013, 04:04 AMkonfliktiBut we have token system already... And people complain about RNG no matter how few items you get, unless it is absolutely certain drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by PessimiStick
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10-05-2013, 04:09 AMKitruHonestly, WAR and PLD don't require different things. It's not like WAR gets more out of Parry than PLD does: they get the same effective percent contributions from both. The only difference is that WAR gets some minute mitigation gains from DPS stats on top of the enmity increase that both get *and yet it's not like WAR gets more out of their gear than PLD does*. WAR gets less out of everything that it shares with PLD thanks to the difference in baseline mitigation differences; WAR simply gets a little bit from a stat that PLD gets *anyway* (since it's not like there's any decent gear with pure Vit + Parry).Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
Redundancy. The devs have done a pretty good job of preventing armory glut. If each tank class needed different gear, you'd have a lot of glut. On top of that, it's entirely possible that their design efforts would be wasted when it turns out that one set/slot is best for both classes, rending half of their work unused.Quote:
Why cannot FFXIV have more diversity in gear? Has SE ran out of bytes or what? Is there some unspoken rule of linear gear progression?
Laziness isn't the only reason to go with a single set of gear for both classes. Unless there is some *massive* difference in usefulness between the sets (such as if there were no Parry rating on anything and only DPS secondary stats so that only WAR gets mitigation value from it), there's no good reason, beyond simply the demand for more options, to create multiple sets for the same role. -
10-05-2013, 04:11 AMSwordCoheirBesides that balancing a job with homogonized gear is much easier to do because you know all you'll have to work on is the job itself. When you start pushing for major gear variance, balancing jobs becomes more difficult because some jobs might have better overall gear than others leading to many of the poor balancing decisions that befell many FFXI jobs.Quote:
Originally Posted by PessimiStick
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10-05-2013, 04:34 AMkonflikti
I guess I am different breed from the current MMO-generation, that is content with everything handed to them from devs, having measly 30 skillpoints to allocate as the only difference between characters...
Something went very wrong when customization was given up in favour of "easy to balance". The worst thing is that it is still off-balance. I might be able to forgive the "well, they only have to work on the job, so balancing is easier" if they did not fail at that too. Considering MNK, BRD and LNC all have different gear despite being all being DD, it is not that far stretch really.
Well, atleast there is materia. Too bad it is too expensive to be viable option for a gamer like me. -
10-05-2013, 05:43 AMKitruSelf-righteous much?Quote:
Originally Posted by konflikti
I like having a highly customizable character. I also like having a very balanced game. I also like devs that actually have time to develop new content in reasonable periods of time. You don't get to have all three of those. To me, new content and balance are more important than massive customization, mainly because I know *very well* that customization is an illusion of choice as far as effectiveness is concerned. There will *always* be an optimal construct; the idea that you can deviate from that may be comforting since it allows those that don't care about balance to achieve some degree of uniqueness by applying their own special brand of less-than-optimal but it doesn't change the fact that it is, honestly, an illusion of choice.
For certain aspects of the game, like gear, going with a single option that is well designed is better than creating a bunch of options, only one of which will actually be used by 99% of the population (or get massive amounts of complaints from the population about their personal preference being suboptimal; just look at what's going on in this very thread). The devs have to play triage because their resources (time, money, staff) are not infinite. They have to spend those resources in what they believe to be the most efficient manner possible.
Creating a glut of stat distributions for gear is not really an efficient way to spend resources because it doesn't create appreciable differentiation: you're just changing some number around. Different classes create appreciable differentiation because they play differently. New dungeons create appreciable differentiation because they offer new, different content to do.
If you feel like getting upset or condescending because you don't have a bazillion options, it's all on you because you're not cognizant of what actually takes place and you have this magical notion in your mind that more options equate to more *real* options. The illusion of choice exists as an illusion and, honestly, most people are recognizing this and simply don't care about preserving it. I love what they did with the classes in ARR: they got rid of talent trees and cross-specs and all of the other stuff that creates the illusion of choice and simply focused on making a large number of well developed classes that have all of the traits you'd expect out of a class with a fully developed talent tree without creating a bunch of non-options that exist purely to provide that illusion.
When making ARR, the devs cut out a *lot* of the pointless crap that most other MMOs have included, largely because other MMOs had them. Because they cut out all of that crap, they got to focus on making what *does* matter actually good. They might not have done a perfect job, but they did a damned good job. If they hadn't I'd be playing a different game rather than one that I thoroughly enjoy. -
10-05-2013, 07:51 AMkonfliktiBecause you decided that it is not possible. Because what you decide, is indeed a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Following your train of thought, WAR as choice for tank should not even exist, because it is clearly less optimal than PLD. Merely an illusion of choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Or I dunno, you could create bunch of well designed gear! Like, you could have these extremely complex things like items that provide MORE DEF for those people that like to play it safe and ones that provide MORE DMG for those who want faster clears. (Oh wait, it exists to some level already on accessories... but I think they should just lock it down, since those damn illusions man, they don't even fit)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Numbers are everything. Literally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
Simple people don't care about choices.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru
They cut that out because of the time constraints you mentioned earlier and also because it was simply less work for them. Lot of that useless crap, for example housing and vanity items, that will be steadily flowing back too, because that is what the large quiet masses want. More customization, more unique snowflake.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitru