SE stop doing the "norm"

I know i'll enjoy FF XlV IF the F.A.T.E system reminds me of anything like campaign i'm all for it, ToUA/WoTG was some of my fav expansion packs cause i could do shit w/o waiting for an whole ls.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyri

Wow Wolfie, I totally forgot all about Rift. Havent heard that game since it's release ^^:

---

I kind of forgot about it too because I had zero interest in it, but after speaking to some friends that still play it and googling around for a bit, it turns out that they're doing fairly well. They released an expansion not too long ago.

The problem these days is that production costs for MMOs are way higher than they were 7+ years ago, but if you say you're going to charge $17/mo or $20/mo for your MMO, you're going to be the laughing stock of the MMO world. Nobody's gone above $15/mo since the Everquest days.

The way you fix that problem is either by campaigning for very high subscription numbers and sweetening the deal as much as possible for as many people as possible, by offering the dreaded cash-shop which will make your MMO a (profitable) laughing stock, or by scaling back on production and capping out at a lower subscriber base.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

And if the objective IS to find the location, what then?

---

This makes me think of those few story and job quests that had us use map to locate the place get there and not find where we were supposed to go because it was above or below ground. It makes me giggle how often I would hear people WTF'ing those quests and asking why.

Man that Caedevra Mire.. I died.. SOOOOOOO many times trying to navigate there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

And if the objective IS to find the location, what then?

---

If you want someone to find something for you, you don't say go look in the Atlantic ocean you give them a general location.

They could have said anything like The the south mire of of X town/ X portal cause it was so many zones for that place. Don't pretend like being completely blind is fun.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

If you want someone to find something for you, you don't say go look in the Atlantic ocean you give them a general location.

They could have said anything like The the south mire of of X town/ X portal cause it was so many zones for that place. Don't pretend like being completely blind is fun.

---

Don't pretend exploration isn't fun either. More to the point, it keeps people playing longer, an interest for the MMO developer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Don't pretend exploration isn't fun either. More to the point, it keeps people playing longer, an interest for the MMO developer.

---

Nothing wrong with exploring no one here is arguing for hand holding, no one does not want to be blind folded tho. There are plenty of games out there that can show you the general location and still make it tough to find, stop acting like its noway to do both.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

Nothing wrong with exploring no one here is arguing for hand holding, no one does not want to be blind folded tho. There are plenty of games out there that can show you the general location and still make it tough to find, stop acting like its noway to do both.

---

Firon is completely right. If there people are "blindfolded" they will just look up the answer/location on the internet, so the blindfold approach is a waste of time, there needs to be a balance.

Exploration is fun, but it implies that you have a sense where you're going. If I put you on a scavenger hunt for items in the Amazon jungle, you're not exploring, you're doing a god damn scavenger hunt in the Amazon jungle.

I would like to see a kind of difficulty of XI on ARR. Now before anti xi'ers or fanboys jump this let me explain.
XIV difficulty was trying to avoid laggy cracks that basically split players between "F-you noob lolyoucantavoidcracks" and "F-youit'snotmyfaultSEmakeslaggygames", or trying to beat a dungeon as stupidly quick as possible only to not see DL untill 20 speed runs later.

In XI a good example of difficult im looking for would be Salvage. To even Salvage you had to beat story quests to a certain point, then beat out all the assaults with a full pt who also beat all assaults, then assault more to make points to even go into Salvage. After all that work youd get thrown into a dungeon completely naked, with no weapons, no ability's, no magic NOTHING and it was your job to unlock those ability's before you could go fight the monsters that dropped great gear. EVEN AFTER ALL THAT the drop wasn't 100% you hope to unlock enough ability's for your pt to succeed went to fight a big baddy and -maybe- got 1/3 of a armour peice that you wanted.

After all that you'd keep assaulting for points, then salvaging to try to get 3/3 on a armor piece, collect items to have it made to a salvage armor then turn it in to a NPC to have the peice you wanted.

THAT was work and people running around with salvage gear were regarded highly.

Salvage difficulty is the kind of timesink hard work and dedication that I loved of XI and much less annoying(imo) then standing around CC' failing 5 times waiting 15 mins to reenter, looking for a new tank that D/c half through the battle and going to bed that night without a single speed run complete. Or having 10 speed runs and no DL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebard

Firon is completely right. If there people are "blindfolded" they will just look up the answer/location on the internet, so the blindfold approach is a waste of time, there needs to be a balance.

---

This statement brings me back to XI when did that lvl cap quest that wanted you to go tot he 3 beastman strongholds. Instead of telling you the ??? you are looking for with a clever message he(Maat) just tells you to go there. When i first did that quest i was in castle O for hours trying to figure out where to go before i decided to look it up on the net, then i hit another road block the fkin passwords lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

This statement brings me back to XI when did that lvl cap quest that wanted you to go tot he 3 beastman strongholds. Instead of telling you the ??? you are looking for with a clever message he(Maat) just tells you to go there. When i first did that quest i was in castle O for hours trying to figure out where to go before i decided to look it up on the net, then i hit another road block the fkin passwords lol.

---

Haha good times good times :P You forgot the part where you finally beat the #%$#$@ password go down and have to get past 20 yags and a NM before you can get to that last ??? lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyri

I would like to see a kind of difficulty of XI on ARR. Now before anti xi'ers or fanboys jump this let me explain.
XIV difficulty was trying to avoid laggy cracks that basically split players between "F-you noob lolyoucantavoidcracks" and "F-youit'snotmyfaultSEmakeslaggygames", or trying to beat a dungeon as stupidly quick as possible only to not see DL untill 20 speed runs later.

In XI a good example of difficult im looking for would be Salvage. To even Salvage you had to beat story quests to a certain point, then beat out all the assaults with a full pt who also beat all assaults, then assault more to make points to even go into Salvage. After all that work youd get thrown into a dungeon completely naked, with no weapons, no ability's, no magic NOTHING and it was your job to unlock those ability's before you could go fight the monsters that dropped great gear. EVEN AFTER ALL THAT the drop wasn't 100% you hope to unlock enough ability's for your pt to succeed went to fight a big baddy and -maybe- got 1/3 of a armour peice that you wanted.

After all that you'd keep assaulting for points, then salvaging to try to get 3/3 on a armor piece, collect items to have it made to a salvage armor then turn it in to a NPC to have the peice you wanted.

THAT was work and people running around with salvage gear were regarded highly.

Salvage difficulty is the kind of timesink hard work and dedication that I loved of XI and much less annoying(imo) then standing around CC' failing 5 times waiting 15 mins to reenter, looking for a new tank that D/c half through the battle and going to bed that night without a single speed run complete. Or having 10 speed runs and no DL.

---

As someone who did everything in XI fully equiped 75 pld with Aegis shield shadow mantle and the works. Garuda and Darnus (hardmode) was harder than anything that XI had to offer. I actually think Darnus would stomp XI players easy cause they can't use the 3 golden tactics for this fight and that is Kite, burn, and throw tanks at it.

Don't get me wrong XI had some hard stuff but not a lot of it took a lot of strat just knowing which of those 3 tactics to use.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebard

Firon is completely right. If there people are "blindfolded" they will just look up the answer/location on the internet, so the blindfold approach is a waste of time, there needs to be a balance.

---

I agree and have argued for a balance between one and the other. But apparently FFXI was as tough as the Lady of Pain's mazes for some people, and Pheonix server was somehow spared all this...

Fyi, the quest markers are going to be the perfect solution. The people that don't want to waste time on scavenger hunts or looking stuff up on fansites are going to turn it on and get their s**t done. The people that like the challenge and don't want help can just turn it off and do it that way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

I agree and have argued for a balance between one and the other. But apparently FFXI was as tough as the Lady of Pain's mazes for some people, and Pheonix server was somehow spared all this...

---

If you can tell me with honestly you never looked up more than 50% of your quest in XI because the wording so was so bad I would say you are lying but i might be wrong.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

As someone who did everything in XI fully equiped 75 pld with Aegis shield shadow mantle and the works. Garuda and Darnus (hardmode) was harder than anything that XI had to offer. I actually think Darnus would stomp XI players easy cause they can't use the 3 golden tactics for this fight and that is Kite, burn, and throw tanks at it.

---

Grats on your cool gear and I agree XI went the way of zerg it or bust but thats not much different then speed run or bust. Darnus wasn't too bad It just depended mostly imo on quick heals, a non squishy tank and fast BLM's
(Okay maybe he was bad but I had the whole fight system down right away.)
Garuda is a **** and a rl break for my father in laws passing had me miss the nerfed garuda blm burn experience so I never actually beat garuda but truthfully the ifrit/moogle/garuda fight I was so turned off by spamming them back in the day I was loathe to even care to fight them anymore. Salvage I wanted to do it. Primals felt like a migraine for me. I dreaded hearing people ask me to do them after a while.

Perhaps in a way yes they are harder then some XI stuff but in other ways they aren't. In XI im sure it would have been a lot harder to get that relic and shadow gear with one party, not a alliance. However in XIv's way of hard it seems less fun. XIV It takes a lot of time but only because your pt cant beat it on time or cooldowns to enter and really crappy drop rates. I was pointing out a system where rather then entering a dungeon 20 times a day till your puling your hair in fustration, I would rather take the timesink way of "Beat this get that" like salvage then the current XIV system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

Fyi, the quest markers are going to be the perfect solution. The people that don't want to waste time on scavenger hunts or looking stuff up on fansites are going to turn it on and get their s**t done. The people that like the challenge and don't want help can just turn it off and do it that way.

---

You are being blind to the social response. Have variety in the designing of the quests, and we wont have this separation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyri

I would like to see a kind of difficulty of XI on ARR. Now before anti xi'ers or fanboys jump this let me explain.
XIV difficulty was trying to avoid laggy cracks that basically split players between "F-you noob lolyoucantavoidcracks" and "F-youit'snotmyfaultSEmakeslaggygames", or trying to beat a dungeon as stupidly quick as possible only to not see DL untill 20 speed runs later.

In XI a good example of difficult im looking for would be Salvage. To even Salvage you had to beat story quests to a certain point, then beat out all the assaults with a full pt who also beat all assaults, then assault more to make points to even go into Salvage. After all that work youd get thrown into a dungeon completely naked, with no weapons, no ability's, no magic NOTHING and it was your job to unlock those ability's before you could go fight the monsters that dropped great gear. EVEN AFTER ALL THAT the drop wasn't 100% you hope to unlock enough ability's for your pt to succeed went to fight a big baddy and -maybe- got 1/3 of a armour peice that you wanted.

After all that you'd keep assaulting for points, then salvaging to try to get 3/3 on a armor piece, collect items to have it made to a salvage armor then turn it in to a NPC to have the peice you wanted.

THAT was work and people running around with salvage gear were regarded highly.

Salvage difficulty is the kind of timesink hard work and dedication that I loved of XI and much less annoying(imo) then standing around CC' failing 5 times waiting 15 mins to reenter, looking for a new tank that D/c half through the battle and going to bed that night without a single speed run complete. Or having 10 speed runs and no DL.

---

Although you very nicely summed up ffxiv 1.0 endgame I don't believe that there is any difference between repeating endgame content over and over and repeating endgame content over and over.
The key is character development through more than just the gear treadmill. Putting all the development emphasis at endgame and then letting your playerbase get to max level easily is the fatal flaw of almost every MMO ever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

This statement brings me back to XI when did that lvl cap quest that wanted you to go tot he 3 beastman strongholds. Instead of telling you the ??? you are looking for with a clever message he(Maat) just tells you to go there. When i first did that quest i was in castle O for hours trying to figure out where to go before i decided to look it up on the net, then i hit another road block the fkin passwords lol.

---

What was that ls? Immortal something...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

You are being blind to the social response. Have variety in the designing of the quests, and we wont have this separation.

---

You don't know what variety there's going to be because you've only seen like half a dozen quests.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

Don't pretend exploration isn't fun either. More to the point, it keeps people playing longer, an interest for the MMO developer.

---

I've never needed a quest to get me to explore anything. Didnt think it was a requirement. I loved the thrill of trying to get to that thing way off in the distance and running scared throughout the zone cause i was way underleveled. I've done that in every MMO i played, Except 1.0 cause there really wasnt much of interest to discover.

I think what he is referring to is the way the quests were done in FFXI with very little detail and direction. I had that frustration too. Especially if i took a quest and forgot i had it. later i would check my quest log and think i want to complete it but the quest title and log were no help at all in trying to complete it. best bet would be google.

as long as they are smart about how the quest markers are done depending on the type of quest in ARR i dont foresee a big problem. A solution might be to have a "quest helper" toggle in the config menu, That would probably keep both parties happy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebard

What was that ls? Immortal something...

---

What ls? What server lol?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebard

Putting all the development emphasis at endgame and then letting your playerbase get to max level easily is the fatal flaw of almost every MMO ever.

---

Totally. all jobs to 50 should be a rare accomplishment. I have had a lot of fun leveling in XI and even the various styles I was able to play with as SE worked out kinks for it here in XIV. I didn't feel like XI was the same thing over and over. I think why I enjoy that way to XIV's is assaults were each different and so was salvage. I wouldn't enter salvage and spam the heck out of it till bedtime or till I hated it. I was forced to go do other things to continue salvaging. The current XIv systems not like that a change would be ok instead of CC let's do AV. I don't know imo SE was kinda getting it with hamlet. You would have to do provisions to be a top provisioner to get the stones, but I think Hamlet needs some serious rethinking because waiting to reset and fighting the rest of the awake community for spots isn't a fun system.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

What ls? What server lol?

---

If you mean Immortal gods now i think about it then yeah i was in that ls but i ended up having rename my char cause i switched servers with my endgame ls then later came back.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Firon

If you mean Immortal gods now i think about it then yeah i was in that ls but i ended up having rename my char cause i switched servers with my endgame ls then later came back.

---

Yeah and WHM should have a bow, but thats another story folks...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wolfie

You don't know what variety there's going to be because you've only seen like half a dozen quests.

---

So have you, what's your point? Your solution isn't one. The fetch quest in the starter area has a much a place as the AF coffer key quest in a beastman stronghold. There even more you can do, since quests in 14 can also include quest mobs ("escape from cell" guildleves, faction guildleves) and changing ??? Points ("necrologos" guildleves). 11 to a lesser extent had these too.

Leaving it in the player's hands isn't going to work anymore than the agro marker in 1.0. What was once a debatable thing ended up changing gameplay to suit the new system, you wouldn't go without your choice anymore than you would a specific WoW raid without the needed add ons.

Kinda loved that aggro marker. I just wish there was a way the tank could read other peoples aggro bar

I'll admit that Alpha does feel... underwhelming and cookie cutter to anyone who's played multiple MMOs, but it is just Alpha. Your kinda forced to reserve judgement until at least open Beta, when we'd expect to see some core launch content. All the bells and whistles to make the final product of ARR shine haven't been implemented, and that's whats going to determine if this game truly stands out, or is just another casual gamer focused clone.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kallera

So have you, what's your point? Your solution isn't one. The fetch quest in the starter area has a much a place as the AF coffer key quest in a beastman stronghold. There even more you can do, since quests in 14 can also include quest mobs ("escape from cell" guildleves, faction guildleves) and changing ??? Points ("necrologos" guildleves). 11 to a lesser extent had these too.

Leaving it in the player's hands isn't going to work anymore than the agro marker in 1.0. What was once a debatable thing ended up changing gameplay to suit the new system, you wouldn't go without your choice anymore than you would a specific WoW raid without the needed add ons.

---

Quest markers aren't a solution to good quests vs simple quests, I don't know why you brought that up. It's a solution for unclear quest directions, for people who don't want to run around like headless chickens or be forced to look up information on fansites, that does not impact people that like having unclear quest directions.

It has no bearing on how fun or difficult quests are, as WOW can absolutely demonstrate that if you broaden your scope a bit*. If the game designers don't want to make quests that aren't simple fetch or kill quests, it's all on them. Not having quest markers is not going to make your no-lore 5 minute fetch quests more fun than the alternative. If the designers design fun quests, they'll be fun whether you use quest helper or not.

And agro meter is a whole 'nother beast that is not comparable, so please don't bring it up.

*WOW quests consist of only a single task. Quest chains consist of multiple quests in sequence, and you cannot do one before completing its predecessor. An isolated WOW quest is typically 'bland' (not always the case) and short (but not always easy), with very minor monetary and experience rewards. A quest chain is directly comparable to FFXI-style quests in that you have complete several to a dozen tasks before you received your ultimate reward, typically an item or skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Thebard

Yeah and WHM should have a bow, but thats another story folks...

---

Hell no! WHM should have a mallet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

Hell no! WHM should have a mallet!

---

No.
http://www.neurology.org/content/53/3/655/F1.large.jpg

I preffered clubbing everything to death like this.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...cess/defds.jpg

But I suppose this is pretty cute too
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h2...cess/fdgfd.jpg

Hell yess! lol

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...qqqo3_1280.jpg

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZakarnRosewood

Hell yess! lol

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7...qqqo3_1280.jpg

---

I would marry her... F- you Scott~!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kyri

Kinda loved that aggro marker. I just wish there was a way the tank could read other peoples aggro bar

---

You can see aggro bars in 2.0 not sure if they took it out tho but on the pdfs and screen shots they had displayed at gamescon that was the case. I also agree with bows for whms it was awesome for rosa in FF IV.

It is a tool to use for a time and a place. I have no problem with various markers on the minimap. I have a bigger problem with many of them all over my screen as some sort of tacky arrow. I am not certain with names of them being in the screen, especially If it is for something I am supposed to be searching for, having the words "treasure coffer" or "excavation point" give away the location of a chest or a point that was knowingly positioned behind a feature (such as a altar) is simply one aspect of game design interfering with another.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felis

You never done a quest in 1.x?
Showing on the map where you need to go was there already.

---

yes i know it show you where to go in 1.x but i dont wanted that was boring as hell

that it! SE make another hardcore game like ff11 and kick the crybabies that cant play hard MMO :D lmao jking but i would like something challenge not something that is gonna take me 15-20min and im done... at least 1 or 2hr that find but not like ffXI that took like 8-12hr or more hrs but something that is not soooooo fast to finish you know what i mean :D lmao

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ryokyu

that it! SE make another hardcore game like ff11 and kick the crybabies that cant play hard MMO :D lmao jking but i would like something challenge not something that is gonna take me 15-20min and im done... at least 1 or 2hr that find but not like ffXI that took like 8-12hr or more hrs but something that is not soooooo fast to finish you know what i mean :D lmao

---

Your evil plan worked better than I would have liked.
I guess you're right about the forums.

Do what you will, I won't try to stop you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TohruHonda

Leveling is too easy in almost all games these days. I can't believe they are making it easier in 2.0. I remember playing old MMOs and taking 10+ months to hit the level caps. Or playing text based MUDs and dying so much that I would go into negative experience points. Leveling was the reason I stuck to playing these games for so long, it gave me long term goals to reach without even touching the endgame.

---

Ya because that was fun are you kidding me... why is grinding fun why is 10 second spell casts fun wthh!!......