How do we feel about tank damage right now?

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

I don't think anyone feels like dps jobs don't have room to excel, and by the numbers Gunbreaker has as much room to excel as Samurai and other dps jobs, if not more than some. Why do we say otherwise?

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It simply depends on whether the concern should be proportion relative to one's role alone, or to raw ("effective") increased contribution to one's party.

Between any two Savage clears, there's little to no difference in indirect contribution (i.e. healer GCDs saved via mitigation) between two players on the same tank; with few exceptions there is generally a larger difference due simply to passively granted eHP (from gearing) allowing for more efficient healing (via delay) than between any two acceptable CD schedules, and it's not much either. That leaves the extent of added contribution mostly under the damage dealt metrics. But for two roles to be equally rewarding or mastery, they can't just have equal % gain relative to themselves, but also to each other. Otherwise, if you have a player who can perform at the same high percentile in either role or a given job in either, the one with the lower ceiling would technically be holding the party back if there's a lower-performing player when assigning their better player to that role relative to another, lower-performing player (again, on both roles or jobs therein). That circumstance would be so rare that all this is theoretical, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be a concern.

For my own part, that just means there should be more tank control over their mitigation -- whether that be by sharing uptime cost with maximal damage or simply having finer means of control and, in either case, more effort necessary to optimize its potential, with a higher ceiling and lower floor so that tank contribution over percentiles scales more equally to DPS contribution over contribution rather than just in equal proportion. There should be an economy to it all, imo, whereby an equal increase in player skill in any given role is never going to be worth more in one role than another.

At most, the only exceptions would be to the extent that (1) the given encounter requires and rewards that increase in skill more in one role than another, such as in a fight with advanced tank-dependent techniques for uptime, or (2) the given job in one role as compared to another's better suits that improvement in terms of its skill curve. But these are both negligible concerns and we cannot afford to reshape job balance on a fight-by-fight basis, nor should we sacrifice originality in job design just to keep their skill curves equal.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Maybe tanks just have a lower skill floor so we'll see much smaller increases at lower the percentiles?

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This would be my assumption, but admittedly nothing more than that.

That said, while I don't think it's necessary just yet at this point, I do think we can rein back the total DPS of the DPS role a tad and increase Tank and healers.

20/20/60 as it were

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That leaves the extent of added contribution mostly under the damage dealt metrics. But for two roles to be equally rewarding or mastery, they can't just have equal % gain relative to themselves, but also to each other. Otherwise, if you have a player who can perform at the same high percentile in either role or a given job in either, the one with the lower ceiling would technically be holding the party back if there's a lower-performing player when assigning their better player to that role relative to another, lower-performing player (again, on both roles or jobs therein).

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Assuming you're talking about the damage ceiling when performing at a high level (since as you said damage is ultimately what matters) then I don't disagree with this at all. It actually highlights my exact issue with tanks as they are. The numbers show that higher level players are having as difficult a time optimizing Gunbreaker as they are Samurai, and lower performing players might actually perform relatively better with Samurai. Even so, in a scenario like what you describe a lower performing player in this case would still want to play Gunbreaker, because while tank is just as difficult to optimize it doesn't gain as much for the work. A high performing Samurai, on the other hand, gains a lot more damage. Which is ever important.

High performing healers see a ton of valuable contribution as well.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There should be an economy to it all, imo, whereby an equal increase in player skill in any given role is never going to be worth more in one role than another.

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While I think we have different ideas of how we'd like tanks to perform, I want to quote this statement because it highlights the issue with tanks extremely well. It's funny that when I first made this topic it was just kind of off the cuff chatting about my thoughts after playing several of the jobs. After so much discussion I find that the feeling I described echoes in your statement here, and rings very true:

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

It makes me just want to play heal/dps instead where it feels like I'm appropriately rewarded for my efforts.

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At this point what I hope is that SE will at least acknowledge the state of tanks at some point.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

In the first example, the tanks were probably out of defensive stance for 95% of that fight. At the time, Defensive stance dropped your dps by 20% IIRC. Shadowbringers basically applied the tank stance penalties to all tanks across the board for the perception of not losing dps by equipping tank stance.

So again, take the first example of tank dps (10%) and drop 20% off of that for a result of 8% dps contribution add in the extra high potency dps attacks both tanks and healers got in Shadowbringers and you'll see that tanks are in the exact same spot they should be relative to the healers.

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So the conclusion that tanks did in fact lost dps that was a part of the offensive stance in sb.
So we could say we all got forced into tank stance since 5.0, seems fair enough.
However it will cause problems in the future, mark my word when dps uptime on tanks will be less of a value than that of healers then a lot of funny things are going to happen. Rightnow tenacity should be the most valuable secondary stat due to healers uptime having bigger impact on raid dpa than a tank, savin one or two gcd on healer will likely be better than 1-1.5% on tank that contributes 8.5% rdps to the total number.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

There should be an economy to it all, imo, whereby an equal increase in player skill in any given role is never going to be worth more in one role than another.

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The problem is how you "scale" this worth. Let's say the gap between an average DPS and a top DPS is from 10k to 15k (made up numbers), you can't really have tanks ranging from 5k to 10k, because it would make the skill ceiling too high. However, having tanks ranging from 5k to 7,5k would mean that, for both roles, you'd have a 50% increase from average to top.

Right now the only tanks I can argue there is a feeling of "skill" to damage is between maybe DRK (dunno don't play it but its punishing when you screw up) and GNB with it mostly being gunbreaker requiring to regurgitate thier opener every 60 secs with bloodfest being the biggest skill check of knowing timings to use it for resource management.
PLD is not just straightforward but its easy to keep uptime when needing to move and WAR... just don't get me started on WAR -_- plz... they killed it.

And to the point of percentages changes for tanks between (skill tiers), don't use eden or at least use E1/E2s. Titan (uplift and the entire first phase when he picks tanks for mechanics to drop uptime is so brutal as there are some runs I can sit at 9k as a GNB for transition and then tank to 7k with no deaths during transition just because of mechanics.) and Leviathan both have RNG mechanics that destroy tank damage (stormy for leviathan can hurt a tank that's targetted as well as tsunami 2 for the tank that has the 'bomb').
So... I would look at tank differences between tiers with a grain of salt because there is a significant 'luck' factor with those two fights in particular.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Right now the only tanks I can argue there is a feeling of "skill" to damage is between maybe DRK (dunno don't play it but its punishing when you screw up) and GNB with it mostly being gunbreaker requiring to regurgitate thier opener every 60 secs with bloodfest being the biggest skill check of knowing timings to use it for resource management.
PLD is not just straightforward but its easy to keep uptime when needing to move and WAR... just don't get me started on WAR -_- plz... they killed it.

And to the point of percentages changes for tanks between (skill tiers), don't use eden or at least use E1/E2s. Titan (uplift and the entire first phase when he picks tanks for mechanics to drop uptime is so brutal as there are some runs I can sit at 9k as a GNB for transition and then tank to 7k with no deaths during transition just because of mechanics.) and Leviathan both have RNG mechanics that destroy tank damage (stormy for leviathan can hurt a tank that's targetted as well as tsunami 2 for the tank that has the 'bomb').
So... I would look at tank differences between tiers with a grain of salt because there is a significant 'luck' factor with those two fights in particular.

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There isn't a luck factor if you organise your team properly, you can get 100% uptime on stormy if your team stays close to the dive where you stay further away then sprint/ cd to safety, pretty sure theres an uptime strat for the bomb too. For Titan you can choose a tank to get near 100% uptime for uplifts. Uplift 1 if the dps stand at the front of their platform tanks can drop their blue in a spot where it doesnt hit anyone but they can still hit the boss, the second blue mark is like a 2 gcd loss max if you time it right. Second uplift you can pick a tank to go with the melees an have front back groups so the melees and that tank always get 100% uptime (as well as padding off of the gaol with demon slice/slaughter and fated).

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem is how you "scale" this worth. Let's say the gap between an average DPS and a top DPS is from 10k to 15k (made up numbers), you can't really have tanks ranging from 5k to 10k, because it would make the skill ceiling too high. However, having tanks ranging from 5k to 7,5k would mean that, for both roles, you'd have a 50% increase from average to top.

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At risk of being especially redundant, imo, the % variation within one's own role is not what matters; the flat contribution value, when including both indirect (healing GCDs saved) and direct output (damage), is. Otherwise roles benefit equally from any equal increase in player skills.

If you need a more in-depth explanation, see any of the former posts, including the one you've quoted, such as just a few sentences before the chosen line.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

But for two roles to be equally rewarding of mastery, they can't just have equal % gain relative to themselves, but also to each other.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

At risk of being especially redundant, imo, the % variation within one's own role is not what matters

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But, like I said, since the "base" DPS value is not the same for every role, you'll have a great difference in floor/ceiling. Also, whatever the ratio between DPS and tanks is considered "fair" (Around 60% seemed to be enough back in Alphascape), giving the same room for improvement will inevitably break it.

There's no real reason tanks shouldn't have a higher reward for better performance. We've already seen that tanks are not having an effortless time maximizing damage. If that were the case we'd be seeing tanks reach their maximum dps with greater ease than dps jobs, but the percentiles show that tanks are very on par with dps jobs in terms of skill to damage gain. The only difference is that the tank role receives proportionately less damage gain for the effort.

So give tanks more to do besides dealing damage, some say. Kind of like healers have to heal? Okay, sure, but let's take a look at healers. Going by current numbers Astrologian sees a damage increase from 3.7k to 8.8k from 10th to 99th percentile. So not only do healers heal, but they also receive the same damage-for-effort reward that dps jobs have. Moreso, in the case of AST, because I'm not seeing a single dps job with a damage increase of 5k from lowest to highest performance.

Just to oblige I did check E2s specifically, and Gunbreaker's numbers barely change. Damage gain from 75th to 99th is 6.6%. 50th to 99th is 12% and 10th to 99th is 31%. Samurai sees damage gains of 6.8%, 12.6% and 34% respectively.

Paladin, the "easy" tank, sees a damage increase of 35% from 10th to 99th in E2s.

Dps and healer jobs both see much greater damage rewards. Tank is the odd one out here.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

The only difference is that the tank role receives proportionately less damage gain for the effort.

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No they receive proportionally the same damage. that's exactly what you numbers are showing

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

Damage gain from 75th to 99th is 6.6%. 50th to 99th is 12% and 10th to 99th is 31%. Samurai sees damage gains of 6.8%, 12.6% and 34% respectively.

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They have a lower base damage because they're tanks. That base damage will also impact their top damage. Asking for tanks to gain the same amount of damage will only make their skill ceiling higher than those of DPS jobs, on top of them having to pay attention to their mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

No they receive proportionally the same damage. that's exactly what you numbers are showing

They have a lower base damage because they're tanks. That base damage will also impact their top damage. Asking for tanks to gain the same amount of damage will only make their skill ceiling higher than those of DPS jobs, on top of them having to pay attention to their mitigation.

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I'm referring to overall damage contribution, but that's not the point. Tank is the only role that sees much smaller damage for the effort.

As far as the skill ceiling, unless it takes more skill to reach that higher level of damage, then the skill required to play the job at maximum potential remains the same. So I don't think it matters. If the rotation stays the same then a 75th percentile player will still be 75th percentile. The only thing that will change is their damage numbers. What this does mean is that lower skill players are going to be further from higher skill players in damage values.

Which I don't think is a problem since this is already the case for dps and healers.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

There isn't a luck factor if you organise your team properly, you can get 100% uptime on stormy if your team stays close to the dive where you stay further away then sprint/ cd to safety, pretty sure theres an uptime strat for the bomb too. For Titan you can choose a tank to get near 100% uptime for uplifts. Uplift 1 if the dps stand at the front of their platform tanks can drop their blue in a spot where it doesnt hit anyone but they can still hit the boss, the second blue mark is like a 2 gcd loss max if you time it right. Second uplift you can pick a tank to go with the melees an have front back groups so the melees and that tank always get 100% uptime (as well as padding off of the gaol with demon slice/slaughter and fated).

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There is no uptime strat for the bomb, you try and uptime strat and you kill everyone. Again, one tank will get screw balled for uplift. We already know one tank can have 100% uptime but that means the other one will not. Its a luck factor there and it can really screw one tank because that timing is generally when raid buffs go out during uplift 2.

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Originally Posted by J-Reyno

What this does mean is that lower skill players are going to be further from higher skill players in damage values.

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Here's an example.
Between the top DRK and the first grey DRK, you have a 1945 DPS gap (8231 to 6286).
Between the top DRG and the first grey DRG, you have a 2745 DPS gap (14075 to 11330).

That's a difference of 800 DPS. How punishing would you have to make DRK's rotation to explain such a gap between two players of different skills, knowing that 800 DPS would mean that the low DRK forgot to use either :

• all its auto-attacks
• all its SoulEater
• all its EdgeOfShadow (Not counting Darkside)

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How much of the difference between percentiles is due to ilvl, and how much of it is actually skill based?

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Originally Posted by Rhais

How much of the difference between percentiles is due to ilvl, and how much of it is actually skill based?

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One can only make assumptions.

However at this point we could assume that iLvl is much less of a factor than it is in the first month or so. (When the toppity top is geared fully while everyone else is still moseying along).

That said, there's no reason to believe that the trends differ so much that one role is just under geared and another is just underskilled. One might be able to make that assertion in the first few weeks, but if the two aren't equally geared, there's no sense in making a comparison.

Looking back in time, the 'band' for tanks has shrunk since then, and the easiest explanation for that is the removal of Tank Stance as a mechanic of any weight, as well as the removal of Slashing and subsequent retuning.

The implication being that the floor is raised but not the ceiling. While rare, there are likely logs from groups that had no slashing debuff, thus why Dark and Paladin have lower floors. I doubt Warriors were just 10% better in play.

Obviously, this is the problem with just using graphs and why I encouraged deeper dives, but graphs are good at looking at trends even if no context is present.

For example, healer trends mostly haven't changed - Min-ilvl encounters demand healer DPS but Min-Ilvl isn't how most people tackle content, so healer DPS tends to be much more lax while still being provided. But healers also lose damage the more mistakes a party makes. They have a large amount of variance, and high healer damage is almost always indicative of a group that is mechanically sound (if not mechanically great).

The somewhat larger range on Tanks pre-Shadowbringers is almost wholly explained by the old function of Tank Stance. A 15-20% penalty is huge, and while it should be avoided in optimized play, not everyone who contributes to a dataset is at optimized play. Some just prefer having that comfort but they're counted among the same. Likewise, tanks having actual DPS-stances, some of them exclusive, means that your high percentiles are just that much further from your lows.

Would someone say flipping Tank Stance on and off is skill based? (I wouldn't).

This goes back into assumptions. I could see the development team looking at the removal of the damage penalty and deciding that they should also remove the benefit of the DPS stance, and then averaging them around the assumption that one is in (80%) and one isn't (100%), having their new full power be the average of a tank in stance and one out (90%).

The result is a large raising of the skill floor with a reduction of the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, like I said, since the "base" DPS value is not the same for every role, you'll have a great difference in floor/ceiling. Also, whatever the ratio between DPS and tanks is considered "fair" (Around 60% seemed to be enough back in Alphascape), giving the same room for improvement will inevitably break it.

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You get a $50,000 salary and $50,000 worth of benefits.
I just get a $100,000 salary.

Now, due to a raise, we each get a 30% increase in salary.

Resultantly, I end up with $130,000. You end up with effective earnings of at most $115,000. Is the initial parity maintained?

Tanks' overall value do not scale proportionately to the same degree as that of DPS does; all but their damage barely, if at all, scales.

If you wish to argue that tanks' "benefits" so inflate their floor value that their output is still every bit as compelling at the highest levels of play as is that of DPS, feel free. But I'd be just as right to argue then that the floor is too high, and both should scale equally.

Given that you yourself have noted this lackluster scaling in previous expansions, I have to wonder if you're being purposely obtuse right now.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

You get a $50,000 salary and $50,000 worth of benefits.
I just get a $100,000 salary.

Now, due to a raise, we each get a 30% increase in salary.

Resultantly, I end up with $130,000. You end up with effective earnings of at most $115,000. Is the initial parity maintained?

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That's not our situation. Your comparison assumes that 1) We have the same salary amount at one point and 2) you have absolutely 0 benefit while I have some.

A better comparison would be that I have a $50k salary, you have a $100k salary and we both have a benefit of up to 30% of our salary if we perform well. So I gain $65k max and you, $130k max, thus twice as me. Some point later, we both get promoted (Our "new level cap") and gain a 50% increase in salary, but retain that 30% benefit. I gain $97.5k max and you gain $195k max...twice as me. Apart from that, I also happen to have a much much better health insurance than you.

Now, two situations. Either I have to work harder than you to gain that $45k benefit, since it's 60% of my base salary instead of 30%, or, I have to work only as hard as you to gain a 60% benefit while you still gain only 30% benefit. Is that parity ?

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Given that you yourself have noted this lackluster scaling in previous expansions, I have to wonder if you're being purposely obtuse right now.

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There is a difference between how your base value scales and how much range it got. We can maintain tank's damage higher that what we have now, around the 60% percent of a DPS job they had before if they're given back some complexity and more strategic use of mitigation and enmity. Technically, you can also have up to 40% DPS increase between an average and good player, to the point that a good tank could match a bad DPS.

However, you can't create a really wide gap between "bad" and "good" players, like the "60%" increase I described for the salary comparison above.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Is that parity ?

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When and only when your "health insurance" provides, on average (across multiple encounters), the same benefit to average clear speed (across multiple attempts, including wipes from within normal/optimal compositions and excluding outlier excessive risks) as my increase in salary.

That's the whole point. You've been accounting for only one part of the equation when balance requires that the gestalt opportunity cost/benefit of one must be equal to the gestalt opportunity cost/benefit of the other.

I've already agreed several times in this thread alone, including in posts you have already quoted, that tanks should have greater complexity, as to warrant a more reasonable range -- including a lower floor as to better achieve parity across all levels of gameplay. But that, if done alone, would be to put the means before the ends; without a reasonable goal, the method is irrelevant.

The goal is balance. Though that balance may be unnecessary from a compositional standpoint, since most fight's specifically tank-enforcing events are enough to guarantee tanks their spots despite however little tanks may otherwise provide, it is still very useful in giving a feeling of right and proportionate reward. And before you disparage that as subjective dross, let us note that people play games when they find or expect to find it more fun (a wholly subjective feeling) to be doing so than to not.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

When and only when your "health insurance" provides, on average (across multiple encounters), the same benefit to average clear speed (across multiple attempts, including wipes from within normal/optimal compositions and excluding outlier excessive risks) as my increase in salary.

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My "health insurance" is what allows the clear in the first place. I understand you don't want tanks to be valuable just by being tanks, but that's still one of their massive benefit. These benefits being also what allows healer to DPS more (mitigation) or DPS to not die (enmity), two things that, I think we agree on, should be made more complex and engaging.

And you still didn't adress one issue. Gaining the same amount of raw DPS between two percentile means that tanks would have a greater damage output range. To create that range, you'd have to make tank's rotation more punishing than the DPS' (Like I said, giving current DRK the same room for improvement than current DRG would be like the average DRK not using auto-attacks at all). But, if the rotation is more punishing, it means that it suddenly requires more skill to achieve the same result, which is exactly what you don't want. Or, the other way is to make tanks stats scale higher than those of DPS. Because apart from a single comment from Rhais, the impact of gear was never included in the damage output, yet it still plays a great part.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The goal is balance.

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The problem is that tanks and healers bring something else besides DPS. You can't simply focus on the DPS number to judge the value of a job. Especially since the base DPS will always be lower.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

And before you disparage that as subjective dross, let us note that people play games when they find or expect to find it more fun (a wholly subjective feeling) to be doing so than to not.

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I'd personally have more fun if tanking was made more complex and engaging, even without touching the damage output.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

My "health insurance" is what allows the clear in the first place.

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All balance must work around compositional assumptions. Ours is a base of 2-4-2. Unless you would actually be satisfied with tank gameplay being solely a matter of moving the boss, applying damage-less enmity, and popping mitigation skills, you're being disingenuous at best in considering the party's survival (rather than just whatever especially risky gambits a particular tank job's toolkit allows for or uptime strats made possible by timely tank positioning) a matter of tank rDPS. You may as well say that any given lead DPS has no contribution past the first tankbuster. At a stretch, and through a very different frame of reference, you could reasonably argue that, but it's not XIV's point of reference.

In either case, though, this goes back to the very same issue I'd just noted: these benefits are applied, beyond outright failure to play the job with any modicum of skill, at the tank's output floor; there is hardly, if any, way to improve upon tank's active mitigation through additional awareness or mechanical skill on the player's part, as it is applied simply and solely through CD schedules. The floor is likely too high, and therefore its relative gap too low because, for the last of several times now, tank contribution is not just damage-dealing.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

Gaining the same amount of raw DPS between two percentile means that tanks would have a greater damage output range.

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I've never suggested they should. Go back and reread. The whole thing this time. Not just whatever you can cherry-pick to purposely ignore the point.

I said they should have the same contribution, e.g.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

...when including both indirect (healing GCDs saved) and direct output (damage)...

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The only one who has reduced this discussion solely to relative spans of DPS is you. Everyone else has long since kept in mind that advancing a lower base by the same percentage does less and that tanks contribute more than just damage, but that those other factors scale to little or no benefit.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, if the rotation is more punishing, it means that it suddenly requires more skill to achieve the same result, which is exactly what you don't want.

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I beg to differ. As have all my posts that have mentioned anything of the subject. I'm perfectly fine with a given tank having a less monotonous or barebone rotation. Read them and you'd know.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

The problem is that tanks and healers bring something else besides DPS. You can't simply focus on the DPS number to judge the value of a job. Especially since the base DPS will always be lower.

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I wonder where I've heard this before? Could it be... any of the recent posts by the people you were arguing with, e.g.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That's the whole point. You've been accounting for only one part of the equation when balance requires that the gestalt opportunity cost/benefit of one must be equal to the gestalt opportunity cost/benefit of the other.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

I'd personally have more fun if tanking was made more complex and engaging, even without touching the damage output.

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As would we all. But one unrelated improvement does not preclude another.

I have a question about potency and damage.


Lv.80 WAR - iLv.445
Attack Power - 3690

Inner Chaos hit for Crit+Direct Hit 38420 - 40428


Lv.79 WHM - iLv.387
Attack Magic Potency - 3134
Afflatus Misery hit for Crit 46000 - 47600


Considering Inner Chaos potency is 920 single target vs Afflatus Misery spread off potency 900 AOE why is WHM consistently hit harder than WAR that have 556 more attack power AND with Direct Hit ? I have tried this with several different monsters and the result is about the same. Are majority of the monster have much lower Magic Defence?

Casters don't have auto attacks. Their weapons have about 30% more "Damage" on their stat.

A basic damage formula looks like

Potency x Weapon Damage.

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Originally Posted by Ghald

Considering Inner Chaos potency is 920 single target vs Afflatus Misery spread off potency 900 AOE why is WHM consistently hit harder than WAR that have 556 more attack power AND with Direct Hit ? I have tried this with several different monsters and the result is about the same. Are majority of the monster have much lower Magic Defence?

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One has a 30% damage-increasing trait and higher weapon damage per ilvl, though that may be scaled down to absolutely no benefit. The other has Storm's Eye's 10% damage bonus only, which I have no way of knowing whether you've used.

Thanks for clarifying that for me, thanks Kabooa, Shurrikhan.
I forgot to mention that I did applied Storm's Eye as well.:)

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

The only one who has reduced this discussion solely to relative spans of DPS is you.

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What you said is also this :

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

That leaves the extent of added contribution mostly under the damage dealt metrics. But for two roles to be equally rewarding or mastery, they can't just have equal % gain relative to themselves, but also to each other.

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What indirect damage you make the healer gain will never appear on any of you parse, so people would simply ignore that when judging the value of a tank. The goog thing is that, if tenacity scaled higher, it would make tank's contribution more valuable in direct damage and healer's damage opportunity. So it could be a temporary band-aid before they maybe make mitigation and enmity more important.
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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Everyone else has long since kept in mind that advancing a lower base by the same percentage does less and that tanks contribute more than just damage, but that those other factors scale to little or no benefit.

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That's the change I was advocating for pages ago :

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

If there was an equivalent reward, it shouldn't take the shape of more damage but more optimized mitigation. Which is probably the reason why some people said that, to be more, engaging "tanks don't simply need +1k DPS". SE should make "actual tanking" more engaging.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I beg to differ. As have all my posts that have mentioned anything of the subject. I'm perfectly fine with a given tank having a less monotonous or barebone rotation. Read them and you'd know.

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I wasn't saying you don't want the rotation to be difficult. But, the rotation being more difficult, means that the tank would have to work harder than the DPS for the same raw reward. That last part is what you seem to not want.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

What you said is also this

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Yes, and? "That leaves the extent of added contribution mostly under the damage dealt metrics," has the same meaning as "damage contribution scales almost solely via added damage" which in turn has the same meaning as "those other factors [of tank contribution, i.e. besides damage] scale to little or no benefit." That's now several repetitions of the exact same idea.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

But, the rotation being more difficult, means that the tank would have to work harder than the DPS for the same raw reward. That last part is what you seem to not want.

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That depends on their starting point. Each tank has noticeablyeasier damage-optimization than the majority of gameplay. Whether the added effort comes from bringing back mitigation as alternative to output or the like, or simply through increased rotational complexity is largely irrelevant to effort-reward when so long as that total reward (direct and indirect contribution) is equal and proportionate. I'd prefer the prior, but if, say, a majority wanted to give WARs something more to look forward to than just Upheaval and not wasting IC via IR, or DRK to have more to look forward to than just banking its MP for others' buffs alone, I'd be glad to see them accommodated as a means of increasing the effort ceiling of those tank jobs.

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Originally Posted by Ghald

I have a question about potency and damage.


Lv.80 WAR - iLv.445
Attack Power - 3690

Inner Chaos hit for Crit+Direct Hit 38420 - 40428


Lv.79 WHM - iLv.387
Attack Magic Potency - 3134
Afflatus Misery hit for Crit 46000 - 47600


Considering Inner Chaos potency is 920 single target vs Afflatus Misery spread off potency 900 AOE why is WHM consistently hit harder than WAR that have 556 more attack power AND with Direct Hit ? I have tried this with several different monsters and the result is about the same. Are majority of the monster have much lower Magic Defence?

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Casters don't have auto attacks. Their weapons have about 30% more "Damage" on their stat.

A basic damage formula looks like

Potency x Weapon Damage.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

One has a 20% damage-increasing trait and higher weapon damage, though that may be scaled down to absolutely no benefit. The other has Storm's Eye only, and I'm hoping that for clarity of testing you've avoided that here.

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You are most definitely missing something:
920* 1,25* 1,40 < 900*1,3 (maim and mend II is 30%, not that it matters)
1610 < 1170

It's pretty obvious that even with a bit more weapon dmg these numbers wouldn't work out and yes this is without storm's eye ( which would add another 1.1 modifier to the left side).

The missing thing is that tanks just have lower AP to dmg scaling than other roles. The only hint at this is in the tank mastery tooltip although “a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute” sounds like the opposite. I really don't like hidden stuff like that personally, it should be obvious to why, just by looking at the quoted posts.

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Originally Posted by Kyni

You are most definitely missing something:
920* 1,25* 1,40 < 900*1,3 (maim and mend II is 30%, not that it matters)
1610 < 1170

It's pretty obvious that even with a bit more weapon dmg these numbers wouldn't work out and yes this is without storm's eye ( which would add another 1.1 modifier to the left side).

The missing thing is that tanks just have lower AP to dmg scaling than other roles. The only hint at this is in the tank mastery tooltip although “a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute” sounds like the opposite. I really don't like hidden stuff like that personally, it should be obvious to why, just by looking at the quoted posts.

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Basically the tank formula swapped two integers.

Before, Strength was something like 70% the amount of a DPS main stat for Tanks, but was factored in at 100%.

Swap those two values now that tanks get 100% the main stat.

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Originally Posted by Kyni

The missing thing is that tanks just have lower AP to dmg scaling than other roles. The only hint at this is in the tank mastery tooltip although “a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute” sounds like the opposite. I really don't like hidden stuff like that personally, it should be obvious to why, just by looking at the quoted posts.

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Mm. Tanks had had outright less attached Strength for so long I'd gotten used to the reduced AP relative to other jobs that the factor outright slipped my mind just before, but for someone joining the game after tanks would appear to have been given the same AP (via equal AP-producing main stat) to everyone else, it'd be a counter-intuitive at best.

As I mentioned in the beginning of the thread way back when, I'd rather see the stat itself reduced or the factor listed on mouseover/interaction with the Strength tooltip. Or, better yet, just to have reduced potencies and equal AP to the same intended damage. (I could say the same for Ranged jobs' 20% and Casters' 30% damage traits: I'd rather everyone had them or no one.)

The only thing tanks need to focus on is surviving and keeping the bosses faced away from the party. Tanking have never been about doing damage, thats the dps job.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

The only thing tanks need to focus on is surviving and keeping the bosses faced away from the party. Tanking have never been about doing damage, thats the dps job.

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The problem with this argument is that "surviving" is more or less pressing one or 2 buttons every couple of minutes. There's no real way to survive better beyond using appropriate CDs at the time required. Once you have that figured out all that's really left is optimizing damage, since tanks in this game are, in fact, designed to be more than mere meat shields or threat bots.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

The only thing tanks need to focus on is surviving and keeping the bosses faced away from the party. Tanking have never been about doing damage, thats the dps job.

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You know how many tanks would stop playing that role than regardless about rewards for being a tank to keep populations of them healthy? Like we would lose at least 85% if not more of tanks with that kind of attitude.
How about we make DPS have only two buttons to do their jobs with then?
>_>
Edit: Forgot to mention how insufferable playing as a tank would be just trying to do MSQ too.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

The only thing tanks need to focus on is surviving and keeping the bosses faced away from the party. Tanking have never been about doing damage, thats the dps job.

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Tanks need to focus on surviving, hmm?
sounds more like "healers need to focus of keeping tanks (and everyone else and themselves) alive.
or in other words you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Originally Posted by whiskeybravo

The problem with this argument is that "surviving" is more or less pressing one or 2 buttons every couple of minutes. There's no real way to survive better beyond using appropriate CDs at the time required. Once you have that figured out all that's really left is optimizing damage, since tanks in this game are, in fact, designed to be more than mere meat shields or threat bots.

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Then ask them to change it but DPS tanks won't ask for that. Or if they do get it, it won't matter. There's no amount of mechanics that can be put into place that won't be solved. More hard hits and tank busters; oh here's the new CD rotation and Healers do it this way, make sure your DPS is good. Movement gets solved to move the boss as little as possible to keep up times(Or reduced in scope cause the Melee DPS start complaining as well). The moment the fight is solved it's back to "Well tanks need more damage." There's going to be no pleasing you people so just ax the classes already.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

You know how many tanks would stop playing that role than regardless about rewards for being a tank to keep populations of them healthy? Like we would lose at least 85% if not more of tanks with that kind of attitude.
How about we make DPS have only two buttons to do their jobs with then?
>_>
Edit: Forgot to mention how insufferable playing as a tank would be just trying to do MSQ too.

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Having lived through the Heavensward "DPS WAR" meta; yeah sure I'll take it. About half the tank population back then were just glorified DPS, or DPS that couldn't actually hack it as DPS and wanted an easy job in Tanks. Regardless of the different responsibilities that fell on them. "Oh but that content doesn't matter" yeah bite me, give me back my time wasted on tanks thinking they were Damage dealers and ate busters/attacks they should have and then we'll say it 'doesn't matter'. I nearly hung up healing during that.

Also do you know how many raiders would probably love to have a 2 button DPS job? "It's rotation is so easy, it's able to keep up with MNK and BLK or at least be in the ball park. We don't need to worry about replacing DNC or BRD. It's a great class...., and it's melee, skip." Yeah, no I think a 2 button DPS would be very welcome in the raid community. Fun? What's that, we need numbers cause that's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Tanks need to focus on surviving, hmm?
sounds more like "healers need to focus of keeping tanks (and everyone else and themselves) alive.
or in other words you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Tanks should focus on using their CDs to lessen damage and positioning the boss.

Problem is both of those are 'solved' and now people just thirst for damage and blame healers.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Then ask them to change it but DPS tanks won't ask for that. Or if they do get it, it won't matter. There's no amount of mechanics that can be put into place that won't be solved. More hard hits and tank busters; oh here's the new CD rotation and Healers do it this way, make sure your DPS is good. Movement gets solved to move the boss as little as possible to keep up times(Or reduced in scope cause the Melee DPS start complaining as well). The moment the fight is solved it's back to "Well tanks need more damage." There's going to be no pleasing you people so just ax the classes already.

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Gameplay being currently underwhelming = any and all iterations of gameplay will be underwhelming = just remove all jobs?

You do realize how obtuse you're being?

That all gameplay is simply a process of optimization, after which you have nothing left to improve upon, does not make all gameplay the same. The height of that hurdle matters, too, not just people will eventually manage it.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Gameplay being currently underwhelming = any and all iterations of gameplay will be underwhelming = just remove all jobs?

You do realize how obtuse you're being?

That all gameplay is simply a process of optimization, after which you have nothing left to improve upon, does not make all gameplay the same. The height of that hurdle matters, too, not just people will eventually manage it.

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The only optimization that people seem to care about is damage. Been told that again and again in this very thread. And who cares about “content that doesn’t matter” the game is “balanced” around raids and raiders right? Now this is in part due to how the game is designed, damage being the only viable that has any meaning(what you can’t follow a guide that calls out CDs for you and stay calm?)but I’m convinced there’s no amount of mechanics(Fight, job, or role)that won’t lead to people going “more damage?” without going off the deep end into annoyance or just insane demands on said tanks. And I’d still give people a few months before figuring it out anyway.

People want more damage across the board. Tanks don’t do enough, healers will never do enough from what I see people saying every expansion(with some exceptions), and even DPS cry that they aren’t MNK or BLM.

Easiest way to fix this demand is to ax the roles, make them all damage focus with little changes between them. Myself, I would find that more than likely boring but hey, the game isn’t balanced around me so how dare I question what is fun.

Can’t complain about tank damage if there’s no tanks. Kill roles and end it. But then We’d just get people complaining that their favorite job is still lowest on the chart. Ah well, can’t please everybody.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

The only optimization that people seem to care about is damage. Been told that again and again in this very thread. And who cares about “content that doesn’t matter” the game is “balanced” around raids and raiders right? Now this is in part due to how the game is designed, damage being the only viable that has any meaning(what you can’t follow a guide that calls out CDs for you and stay calm?)but I’m convinced there’s no amount of mechanics(Fight, job, or role)that won’t lead to people going “more damage?” without going off the deep end into annoyance or just insane demands on said tanks. And I’d still give people a few months before figuring it out anyway.

People want more damage across the board. Tanks don’t do enough, healers will never do enough from what I see people saying every expansion(with some exceptions), and even DPS cry that they aren’t MNK or BLM.

Easiest way to fix this demand is to ax the roles, make them all damage focus with little changes between them. Myself, I would find that more than likely boring but hey, the game isn’t balanced around me so how dare I question what is fun.

Can’t complain about tank damage if there’s no tanks. Kill roles and end it. But then We’d just get people complaining that their favorite job is still lowest on the chart. Ah well, can’t please everybody.

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Healers aren't complaining about thier damage right now, they are complaining about having only two buttons for a 'damage rotation' when they don't need to heal with.
Tanks are complaining because we fell behind further the DPS that are already getting buffs in general for all of the lower damaging classes which widens the gap between the jobs ontop of making MSQ and other content tougher/longer to do than a DPS. Hey, just be a dps if you are going to do MSQ... than why am I playing a tank in end game?

I'll tell you what though, most of the time I die as a tank is because you healers don't keep an eye on my HP when a TB is coming out and even with X cooldowns that I can afford to use you think "oh gee he has 50% hp he's fine" then get suprised when the tank dies.

Finally, why are you asking for FFXIV to become a different game entirely now? You know that is not going to happen at all. The foundation was decided to be the DPS, Tank, Healer pyramid, if you don't like it go play an MMO that doesn't do that then. It's not the point of tanks just wanting more damge because more damage, its also "Hey, our raid contribution has dropped off since SB, can we have it back to a degree we feel impactful for our gameplay/optimization?" because in the grand scheme of things as long as I don't die, my optimization of my job/role feels completely irrelevant as a cog in the machine that is my raid group, especially when I am the OT.

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Originally Posted by Windwalker

The only thing tanks need to focus on is surviving and keeping the bosses faced away from the party. Tanking have never been about doing damage, thats the dps job.

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Ok, but then give a tank self healing skills allowing them to survive without healer. Oh wait, healer lost his job now.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

Also do you know how many raiders would probably love to have a 2 button DPS job? "It's rotation is so easy, it's able to keep up with MNK and BLK or at least be in the ball park. We don't need to worry about replacing DNC or BRD. It's a great class...., and it's melee, skip." Yeah, no I think a 2 button DPS would be very welcome in the raid community. Fun? What's that, we need numbers cause that's all that matters.

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SE did this with healers, were they happy?

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Healers aren't complaining about thier damage right now, they are complaining about having only two buttons for a 'damage rotation' when they don't need to heal with.
Tanks are complaining because we fell behind further the DPS that are already getting buffs in general for all of the lower damaging classes which widens the gap between the jobs ontop of making MSQ and other content tougher/longer to do than a DPS. Hey, just be a dps if you are going to do MSQ... than why am I playing a tank in end game?

I'll tell you what though, most of the time I die as a tank is because you healers don't keep an eye on my HP when a TB is coming out and even with X cooldowns that I can afford to use you think "oh gee he has 50% hp he's fine" then get suprised when the tank dies.

Finally, why are you asking for FFXIV to become a different game entirely now? You know that is not going to happen at all. The foundation was decided to be the DPS, Tank, Healer pyramid, if you don't like it go play an MMO that doesn't do that then. It's not the point of tanks just wanting more damge because more damage, its also "Hey, our raid contribution has dropped off since SB, can we have it back to a degree we feel impactful for our gameplay/optimization?" because in the grand scheme of things as long as I don't die, my optimization of my job/role feels completely irrelevant as a cog in the machine that is my raid group, especially when I am the OT.

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You missed it. Healers did complain at the start as "Oh no we aren't doing as much as WHM this expansion, woe as us". Then they moved on to "oh the rotation" later.

I don't want FF14 to become a different game. I like what we have but the push for "Only damage matters" is annoying. If the mantra is "It's the only thing that matters" then why not change the game to focus on that?

You want more raid contribution, but the only contribution you will accept is more DPS. More damage incoming? Healers get good. More movement mechanics? Guides will be put up on how to do it and squeeze extra damage out or cheesed. Any mechanic that dares disrupt DPS? Complained about till nerfed. There is no contribution that won't lead back to "We need more damage because it's the only thing that matters".

I like the foundation of DPS, Tank, Healer trinity. I just wish we got more TANK stuff than Blue DPS. But no matter what TANK stuff comes out, it's going to be solved and then the "Oh we don't deal enough damage" topics come out. But if Damage is the only thing to care and optimize about, with topic after topic about it; well you could have fooled me. I thought this was a different game so might as well change it to be the raiders want.

I'd leave but hey again, I'm not a high end raider so what do I know about fun?

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

SE did this with healers, were they happy?

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Oh no they aren't happy at all.

But then again, most those complaining aren't raiders are they so what does it matter? They are effective and 'balanced' now around the end game which is the only content that matters.

What it's boring on the climb up? Too bad that doesn't matter. Get to raids and have fun. I mean I find several classes unfun but hey they are breaking damage limits and all other jobs should feel bad for not being them.

How the community reacts to something and how the raid community reacts to something are two different things. And the raid community loves to remind us that only their content matters.