Lack of End Game Content

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

Yes, because it remains one of my favourite outfits and I ensure I am glamed that way when playing the class.

I find it more sad that people need something like a low probability level or a high-level content reward to find worth in the item.

When you associate value with difficulty of completion or RNG, you are effectively saying you care about bragging rights above all else.

It could be the ugliest thing, but because it was a low chance of happening, it suddenly gets massive value.

It's like in WoW when they just use the same mount five times but everyone wants the BLUE one because that one is the hardest to get. Doesn't matter if it's identical except in colour, all of the value is placed on how it was obtained, rather than if the item itself is good.

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It was about the stats on the item that elevated your level of play in a unique way. Glamour meant nothing at all

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

I get it....and in your defense this is why i am the minority clearly. But ill tell you this...when you did get that item i bet it meant more to you and it became sentimental/meaningful.

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NNNope.. it just meant I could move on to the next thing I had to compete with thousands of other players like myself for, for no other reason than the game was made that way. I NEEDED those items to be competitive and attractive to parties. I slightly enjoyed the fact I had a kraken club, but it wasn't just because it was a kraken club. It was because I was now more desirable in a party than all the other shmoes who didn't have it.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

Can you say that about any tomestone gear/raid battle piece you ever got? No because once the next patch arrives it will be deemed useless and the treadmill will start all over again.

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No game has ever lasted forever, I have since realized that the only value in the game or the items is the enjoyment of the time I'm spending, not the having stuff. I get new raid stuff so I can play the game with my friends and expand my options for doing other things that I enjoy. FFXI was the last game I played that I had spent time playing and sat back and realized I was madder and more stressed than when I started. I may be unique but I have since never continued playing a game where I realized I was spending more time being frustrated than having fun. Video games are all a waste of time. If I wanted to spend time actually achieving something I wouldn't be playing a game.

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

My yin yang robe took awhile to get and i had to battle pkers,missed claims, etc. but when i did get it..my summoner level of play elevated to new heights and it was a feeling that i have not felt in my entire career of ffxiv. Thats the problem with this generation... want everything on a silver platter and too afraid to face any type of adversity.

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Or I realized I didn't want to spend both time and money on something that stressed me out.

I guess I will just silently unsub over half of every 6 months like I have been. I didn't realize until this thread that casuals were so invested in making sure raiders never get any new content to have fun with. How dare we want more. Only casuals are allowed that desire. God forbid casuals lose even one thing out of the self-proclaimed never ending content they have to do to help us starving raiders. We're like the peasants that live outside of Eulmore, desperately wanting a place in the great city. The casuals in the city would rather throw out food than let us have any. This is after kicking us out of our houses a decade or so ago and changing the entire government of the city.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I guess I will just silently unsub over half of every 6 months like I have been. I didn't realize until this thread that casuals were so invested in making sure raiders never get any new content to have fun with. How dare we want more. Only casuals are allowed that desire. God forbid casuals lose even one thing out of the self-proclaimed never ending content they have to do to help us starving raiders. We're like the peasants that live outside of Eulmore, desperately wanting a place in the great city. The casuals in the city would rather throw out food than let us have any. This is after kicking us out of our houses a decade or so ago and changing the entire government of the city.

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Oh look, another "Casuals kicked my dog" post.

I'm sure the devs would be more inclined to humor you and your ilk's request, if you dropped the toxic elitist attitude. Remember that all of you were casuals once, and casuals are the ones keeping the servers alive, not you.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

I guess I will just silently unsub over half of every 6 months like I have been. I didn't realize until this thread that casuals were so invested in making sure raiders never get any new content to have fun with. How dare we want more. Only casuals are allowed that desire. God forbid casuals lose even one thing out of the self-proclaimed never ending content they have to do to help us starving raiders. We're like the peasants that live outside of Eulmore, desperately wanting a place in the great city. The casuals in the city would rather throw out food than let us have any.

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You and me both...im over it...not even going to bother responding anymore. They successfully removed my ffxiv birdbox blindfold today. No long drawn out goodbye post upset ranting or anything like what other people do. Just sub 1-2 months here and there and save my money.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Oh look, another "Casuals kicked my dog" post.

I'm sure the devs would be more inclined to humor you and your ilk's request, if you dropped the toxic elitist attitude. Remember that all of you were casuals once, and casuals are the ones keeping the servers alive, not you.

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Me, toxic? A lot of the casuals here are trying to stop raiders from having any fun. That is toxic to the genre and to us. Your side is unwilling to make any concessions at all to help us. Do you not understand that because of the casual crowd, we lost the genre of MMORPG we loved? Do you understand the frustration of knowing that is the case and yet you guys are unwilling to even throw us a bone?

Honestly, I can't understand having so much but still wanting others not to have anything. The greed is beyond belief. We can't even have the elemental wheel because Yoshi is afraid it'd be too complicated for people.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Me, toxic? A lot of the casuals here are trying to stop raiders from having any fun. That is toxic to the genre and to us. Your side is unwilling to make any concessions at all to help us.

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Trust me he/she doesnt understand...i been loyal to this mess since 2010 and rode with this game from the VERY beginning through its darkest moments. So of course when they come many years later once its revamped and flex the casual "we pay the most money for the game its about what we want" muscle its gonna always resonate harder to the devs because they are the $$$. At this point remove my legacy tattoo and give me my time spent back.......oh wait nvm...that isnt possible. /OGout

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Originally Posted by MonteCristo

You and me both...im over it...not even going to bother responding anymore. They successfully removed my ffxiv birdbox blindfold today. No long drawn out goodbye post upset ranting or anything like what other people do. Just sub 1-2 months here and there and save my money.

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I'm failing to understand how this is a negative?

The developers have said you should sub here and there rather than constantly play the game.

Other players are saying you should sub here and there rather than constantly play the game

and your response is "I'm so upset that I'm just gonna sub here and there rather than constantly play the game!!!!"

Oh no, you are gonna do what people have been recommending this entire thread.

Sounds more like people finally broke though to you more than anything else.

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Originally Posted by Forever_Learning

I'm failing to understand how this is a negative?

The developers have said you should sub here and there rather than constantly play the game.

Other players are saying you should sub here and there rather than constantly play the game

and your response is "I'm so upset that I'm just gonna sub here and there rather than constantly play the game!!!!"

Oh no, you are gonna do what people have been recommending this entire thread.

Sounds more like people finally broke though to you more than anything else.

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And yet all these people saying they never run out of things to do, even while playing consistently throughout the cycle. But it's okay for them to have that, but not raiders? If this was how it's meant to be played, how come a lot of casuals are able to be consistently entertained throughout the entire cycle? That's not playing the game as Yoshi intended.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

And yet all these people saying they never run out of things to do, even while playing consistently throughout the cycle. But it's okay for them to have that, but not raiders? If this was how it's meant to be played, how come a lot of casuals are able to be consistently entertained throughout the entire cycle? That's not playing the game as Yoshi intended.

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Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

And yet all these people saying they never run out of things to do, even while playing consistently throughout the cycle. But it's okay for them to have that, but not raiders? If this was how it's meant to be played, how come a lot of casuals are able to be consistently entertained throughout the entire cycle? That's not playing the game as Yoshi intended.

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You know my stance on this already, so maybe this won't come off as "ree raiders bad" but it's because they're not hyper-focused on a set type of content. Casual content in this game by your and others' definition is anything not savage or ultimate at the current patch from what I can gather.

Meanwhile, casuals have the option of all DoH, DoL, DoW, DoM classes for leveling and gearing, squadrons, leveling trusts, legacy raids, legacy EX trials, PvP farming, achievement hunting, RP, MGP farming, and probably more I'm just failing to recollect.
Casuals also seem to find joy at all levels of difficulty except the very top (and some don't dislike the content difficulty, but the culture/people that partake in it), which doesn't limit them to just a very specific niche set of content.

It's pretty easy to keep yourself entertained if you find joy outside specifically savage/ultimate bosses.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

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It's not about being "too good" for such content. I have no interest in it. It's not fun for me. You want to lose respect for me because I don't have fun doing something? Fine by me. Casuals automatically perceive that raiders think they are snubbing their noses down at them. I think that is part of where this raider hatred comes from. Fact is, I just want my fun content and don't think I'm God's gift just because I can clear raids. That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things.

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Originally Posted by Vercinotrix

You know my stance on this already, so maybe this won't come off as "ree raiders bad" but it's because they're not hyper-focused on a set type of content. Casual content in this game by your and others' definition is anything not savage or ultimate at the current patch from what I can gather.

Meanwhile, casuals have the option of all DoH, DoL, DoW, DoM classes for leveling and gearing, squadrons, leveling trusts, legacy raids, legacy EX trials, PvP farming, achievement hunting, RP, MGP farming, and probably more I'm just failing to recollect.
Casuals also seem to find joy at all levels of difficulty except the very top (and some don't dislike the content difficulty, but the culture/people that partake in it), which doesn't limit them to just a very specific niche set of content.

It's pretty easy to keep yourself entertained if you find joy outside specifically savage/ultimate bosses.

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Yes, exactly. Casual crowd has all that to do, so I don't see the harm in giving raiders something. You are correct in that only savage/ultimate is generally seen as end-game by raiders because in this game right now, that is the ONLY challenging content. We are looking for any type of challenging battle content. Would not have to be Savage or Ultimate, could be something completely new. I keep hearing ridiculous things like that unsubbing over half the time is acceptable and how the game is meant to be played, or go to WoW, when in the same breath they talk about how they have more than enough content to do. That argument just does not hold up when one takes a single glance at their wealth of content. Literally NO reason not to at least step aside and let raiders have something. Even if they had to take a fraction of their resources away from casual content, so? If you guys are drowning in it, how much damage is that even going to inflict upon the casual base?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Oh look, another "Casuals kicked my dog" post.

I'm sure the devs would be more inclined to humor you and your ilk's request, if you dropped the toxic elitist attitude. Remember that all of you were casuals once, and casuals are the ones keeping the servers alive, not you.

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Eh, based on what I've read from the thread since the beginning the "toxic elitist attitude" actually came from the other side, the number of thumbs up when someone dismisses raider posts is a good indicator.
It felt like a reasonable conversation until people started flexing how much content they had while ignoring the OP, who was actually kind of specific in what he meant (and which people kept ignoring). Then it devolved into insults and snide, people screaming at each other and the classic gatekeeping and ByeFelicia culture so useful to discussion and loved by forums everywhere, no matter the neutrality and calm explanations in the posts. So now we are at an impasse where a thread asking for more of a certain type of content and making suggestions about how to evolve said content has effectively been shut down.

If I may reuse the Themepark analogy. There is content everywhere, some people enjoy one type of content way more than the rest. I can't deal with rollercoasters but dangit I love me those "Win a prize-kinda-it's-rigged" games. Now in this case, FF14 is huge and has a lot of different attractions, but there are indeed more of a certain type than others. For players that enjoy rollercoasters, they may want something more thrilling and heart-stopping and that is indeed lacking in numbers. They may have tried the other attractions but they didn't like it and that's okay, you're not gonna love everything. They want more of the heart-stopper kind and they are calmly asking the park directors to make it happen.

Honestly, I want to have a feedback direct messaging that doesn't involve forums. You can't even leave a goodbye post, as cliché as it is, explaining why the game is no longer fun to you without major snark. This type of feedback is priceless to artists and Devs (granted it should favorably be precise and not insulting the Devs themselves is a good starting point).

Hilariously, you throw around the word toxic while throwing shade and somewhat insulting a part of the community while flexing about your dominance (albeit it's true that casuals are the majority, no one likes a show-off). If that ain't toxic then I should read the dictionary again.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Yes, exactly. Casual crowd has all that to do, so I don't see the harm in giving raiders something. You are correct in that only savage/ultimate is generally seen as end-game by raiders because in this game right now, that is the ONLY challenging content. We are looking for any type of challenging battle content. Would not have to be Savage or Ultimate, could be something completely new. I keep hearing ridiculous things like that unsubbing over half the time is acceptable and how the game is meant to be played, or go to WoW, when in the same breath they talk about how they have more than enough content to do. That argument just does not hold up when one takes a single glance at their wealth of content. Literally NO reason not to at least step aside and let raiders have something. Even if they had to take a fraction of their resources away from casual content, so? If you guys are drowning in it, how much damage is that even going to inflict upon the casual base?

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I've said it before, but there's probably a myriad of reasons as to why.

However one thing that I can say is, the statement "There's literally no reason to step aside and let raiders have something" is false. Not agreeing with their reasons or logic isn't the same thing as it not existing. And people aren't going to willingly eat the loss of their content for yours, asking them to do so just won't happen. It would have to be a conscious and deliberate thing on SE's end. Can there be more high-end content? Sure, and perhaps there should be. However asking people to give up their content for people they perceive hate them isn't going to happen.

And "That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things." is not entirely true either. Like any group, raiders have their darkside as well. There are "hardcore" players that do treat those not apart of their group as beneath them. Even if the ratio of good and bad is heavily in the favor of good, the ones who are bad are going to more prevalent in the minds of those they affected. Just go to any community that has both a hardcore crowd and a casual crowd, and you will always see animosity going both directions.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

Eh, based on what I've read from the thread since the beginning the "toxic elitist attitude" actually came from the other side, the number of thumbs up when someone dismisses raider posts is a good indicator.
It felt like a reasonable conversation until people started flexing how much content they had while ignoring the OP, who was actually kind of specific in what he meant (and which people kept ignoring). Then it devolved into insults and snide, people screaming at each other and the classic gatekeeping and ByeFelicia culture so useful to discussion and loved by forums everywhere, no matter the neutrality and calm explanations in the posts. So now we are at an impasse where a thread asking for more of a certain type of content and making suggestions about how to evolve said content has effectively been shut down.

If I may reuse the Themepark analogy. There is content everywhere, some people enjoy one type of content way more than the rest. I can't deal with rollercoasters but dangit I love me those "Win a prize-kinda-it's-rigged" games. Now in this case, FF14 is huge and has a lot of different attractions, but there are indeed more of a certain type than others. For players that enjoy rollercoasters, they may want something more thrilling and heart-stopping and that is indeed lacking in numbers. They may have tried the other attractions but they didn't like it and that's okay, you're not gonna love everything. They want more of the heart-stopper kind and they are calmly asking the park directors to make it happen.

Honestly, I want to have a feedback direct messaging that doesn't involve forums. You can't even leave a goodbye post, as cliché as it is, explaining why the game is no longer fun to you without major snark. This type of feedback is priceless to artists and Devs (granted it should favorably be precise and not insulting the Devs themselves is a good starting point).

Hilariously, you throw around the word toxic while throwing shade and somewhat insulting a part of the community while flexing about your dominance (albeit it's true that casuals are the majority, no one likes a show-off). If that ain't toxic then I should read the dictionary again.

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Thank you for bringing a more neutral, level-headed perspective to this. I wish more people thought like you and were willing to accept that it is okay for raiders to want something they enjoy doing in this game. That's all I want. That, and for the devs to read this and consider the pleas of raiders in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Vercinotrix

I've said it before, but there's probably a myriad of reasons as to why.

However one thing that I can say is, the statement "There's literally no reason to step aside and let raiders have something" is false. Not agreeing with their reasons or logic isn't the same thing as it not existing. And people aren't going to willingly eat the loss of their content for yours, asking them to do so just won't happen. It would have to be a conscious and deliberate thing on SE's end. Can there be more high-end content? Sure, and perhaps there should be. However asking people to give up their content for people they perceive hate them isn't going to happen.

And "That's a perception manifested by the insecurities of others who can't clear those things." is not entirely true either. Like any group, raiders have their darkside as well. There are "hardcore" players that do treat those not apart of their group as beneath them. Even if the ratio of good and bad is heavily in the favor of good, the ones who are bad are going to more prevalent in the minds of those they affected. Just go to any community that has both a hardcore crowd and a casual crowd, and you will always see animosity going both directions.

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If they have a surplus of content like they keep saying, then they'll still have content to eat up if a little is taken away, right? As to your second point, yes, you're correct. Though I haven't really seen any raiders in this thread implying that casuals are beneath them.

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

If they have a surplus of content like they keep saying, then they'll still have content to eat up if a little is taken away, right? As to your second point, yes, you're correct. Though I haven't really seen any raiders in this thread implying that casuals are beneath them.

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They more than likely will still have a surplus due to the nature of EX and savage becoming retired content.

And there's been a few here and there that come in and either out of frustration or whatnot, make themselves into the ideal bad guy. Not specifically this thread either, but you can find the casual and hardcore crowd cracking heads throughout the forums. People are more than likely going to latch onto that caricature or stereotype and apply it to all that are against them. The reverse is also true, it seems casuals are the boogeyman in the closet for some raiders. :p

Jokes aside I know how the raiders feel deep down, and while I may not like where PvE culture has gone in the last decade and can't be bothered to deal with it anymore, I wish more content could be added to the game as a whole without anyone perceiving it taking away from them. I don't think the developer interviews where they constantly fall back to that line of reasoning as to why they don't add certain things helps either, it's the main argument as to why things shouldn't be added instead of the community rallying for SE to give XIV's development team more resources and quality staff.

Anyway, I finally have people on to do stuff with. I'll check back for a reply later or something, but if I get busy and forget I hope you don't let this thread get to ya too hard.

If we want to use the themepark analogy further: Roller coasters may be the flagship rides of a theme park, but they are also the most expensive rides for the park to produce. For every giant coaster, there are usually a half dozen smaller thrill rides that cost considerably less for the park to build. (The lines also tend to be shorter.... although that is where the analogy breaks.) So when the park makes the decision to add a new coaster, it becomes a multi-million dollar project. Whereas adding in another kiddie ride is something they can do in a few months.

I think that may be one reason why endgame raiding content feels thin at patch launch - high end battle content is some of the most resource intensive stuff for them to produce, so creating an entirely new kind of content (beyond the cycle of Ex fights, 8-man raids, and 24-man raids) is something they're going to have to spend much more time on than they may be willing to invest. (Note that one reason XI's endgame content felt so much more wide and varied compared to XIV is because the level cap stayed at 75 through four expansions, so almost all gear added was sidegrades. Yes, the content was still at level, as was the gear, but that's partly because the game was stagnant for six years in terms of progression.)

Very fair and completely agree. In the end it's about effort vs revenue.

I do believe engaging endgame raiding to be important because it feels like horizontal progression on the main piece of content. I'm personally from the mindset that quality > quantity, especially in the replayability value department.
I also see XI mentioned a lot, but I'm afraid I do not have any experience with it to know how it properly compares.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

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I mean, there's also the fact that as casuals they probably just play less. It's a lot harder to burn through all the content in the game on 3 hours a week compared to 20 hours a week.

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Originally Posted by Xieldras

I do believe engaging endgame raiding to be important because it feels like progression on the main piece of content.

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To be fair, "progression on the main piece of content" in this game will always be the MSQ, even at level cap. Unlike in some other games, like WoW, where the main quest can take you to the raid if you follow it through (though it's still optional), raiding is indeed treated more as a side piece of content in this game, along with its own side quest. There's even a thread right now asking why Eden is not part of the MSQ. Even in terms of gears, tomestone gears can have the same item level as Savage (aside from weapon), and some pieces may even be BiS.

I know that it's been said that Yoshi P says that they don't make content with the purpose of trying to keep players playing every waking minute of every day or every month. They are cool with people taking a break from the game to go play other things and then coming back when there is more content.

To be honest I love that philosophy from both a player standpoint and a game developer standpoint.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests them and deeming content that doesn't as unworthy or unfit for them, and then claiming there's nothing else for them do.

That's the kicker here. You actually have more content to do than casuals. You have the content that's available to them + content they will never be able to touch except maybe unsynced with echo. You have more content than casuals yet you cry there's nothing to do. That's where you lose respect from casuals. "I'm too good to do such lowly content"

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There's plenty to do in this game. Nobody is saying otherwise. Most casuals and raiders both agree.

Unfortunately there are the minority of casual players (yourself included) that will attempt to mislead this argument in order to perpetuate some kind of "loss of respect" stance.

However - the fact is, the bulk and majority of the content, is the pathway ALONG 80.

Theres plenty of old content, Ultimates, Savages, Raids, Leveling, FATE's, PVP etc to do.

However, the name endgame content in itself SUGGESTS content you do specifically at the end of the game, hence END GAME content. It's really very simple.

Do yourself a favour. Actually write down the list of content that we have. Then, attribute what level you can complete said content and what rewards you'll receive for your efforts.

You'll find very quickly, that the amount specifically intended for max level is almost non existent.

Ultimates for example - offer no reward outside transmorg and achievement. Hell they can't be done with most of our rotation due to the level sync requirement.

The current content that we DO have, Eden Normal, 80 Dungeons, Ex Primals, Gathering/Crafting difficult recipes are met with praise.

But it's incredibly limited. In NO other MMORPG's expansion that I've played, have I be been able to beat the story, reach max level and acquire the best in slot gear for MULTIPLE jobs, in less than two weeks.

There is a lot to do in this game, but there's just very very limited amounts of content that is both challenging and rewarding to do at max level.

Why is it so absurd, that reaching your characters full power potential in such a short amount of time is a problem?
Why is it so absurd, that perhaps after the 3rd expansion, that still getting the same formulaic content has grown lacking?
Why is it so absurd, that there is so much for casual players to do, but so little for raiders.

We enjoy the content we get, but we shouldn't be condemned for pointing out how little raid content there is despite the growing player base and increase in raiders.

When comparing the Hardcore Raiding Crowd with the Casual Do Everything Crowd, there's one important distinction to be made. HC Raiding crowd tends to be more okay with cutting other content for theirs. You don't really see a lot of posts about cutting out production of Savage and Ultimate to make a new Gold Saucer attraction. As far as we know, the casual content of Expert Dungeons per patch was the cost of most of the casual/experimental content.

Also in terms of manpower, it was mentioned that Ultimates are only doable by about 3 members of the team. Not to say only 3 members are involved in the whole thing, but actually designing the encounter to be on that level is about 3 people. Sure art assets, animations, sound effects, etc are handled by way more, but their team itself lacks top 1%ers.

And much of the argument here seems to be, "I choose to not engage in a lot of content in order for me to say there is no content" vs. "There is a ton of content I can do whether I choose to engage in it or not". If one CHOOSES to play ONLY Paladin on Cutting Edge content... your gaming lifespan in almost any MMO is 2 months. If there is no loot lockout about 2 weeks. Considering FFXIV has easily the fastest content release cycle for the scope of content delivered. If you can find another MMO that releases 10 Raids every 6 Months then I'm sure the HC crowd would love it. (4 Normal 8, 4 Savage 8, 1 24 man, 1 Ultimate Is supposed to be all out every other patch. And this doesn't even include Extreme Trials which would add at least another 2 pieces of high end content per 6 months)

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Originally Posted by Avraym

However, the name endgame content in itself SUGGESTS content you do specifically at the end of the game, hence END GAME content. It's really very simple.

Do yourself a favour. Actually write down the list of content that we have. Then, attribute what level you can complete said content and what rewards you'll receive for your efforts.

You'll find very quickly, that the amount specifically intended for max level is almost non existent.

Ultimates for example - offer no reward outside transmorg and achievement. Hell they can't be done with most of our rotation due to the level sync requirement.

The current content that we DO have, Eden Normal, 80 Dungeons, Ex Primals, Gathering/Crafting difficult recipes are met with praise.

But it's incredibly limited. In NO other MMORPG's expansion that I've played, have I be been able to beat the story, reach max level and acquire the best in slot gear for MULTIPLE jobs, in less than two weeks.

There is a lot to do in this game, but there's just very very limited amounts of content that is both challenging and rewarding to do at max level.

Why is it so absurd, that reaching your characters full power potential in such a short amount of time is a problem?
Why is it so absurd, that perhaps after the 3rd expansion, that still getting the same formulaic content has grown lacking?
Why is it so absurd, that there is so much for casual players to do, but so little for raiders.

We enjoy the content we get, but we shouldn't be condemned for pointing out how little raid content there is despite the growing player base and increase in raiders.

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You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.

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How is someone possibly completed with Endgame if they can still aren't at that point with everything? The argument that I'm seeing is generally being made by the hardcore crowd is, I only want to do a small amount of endgame content, so give me more that my tiny piece of the endgame pie can do. If you can still level, you are not at endgame. Its true in every MMO, only difference is, your character has a lot more leveling to do here than everywhere else. There's only a few other games that a character isn't one and done like this one.

Thinking of level cap as 80 and not 2,000 is the mistake. (80 X 25 = 200)

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you finish your sightseeing logs?"
"I want more endgame content."
'Ok, but did you stock your entire Glamour dresser with clothes that look exactly the same every patch?
You get all mounts that you never use? You max gil? You flirted with everyone in Ul'dah?"
I mean damn guys lol.

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

When comparing the Hardcore Raiding Crowd with the Casual Do Everything Crowd, there's one important distinction to be made. HC Raiding crowd tends to be more okay with cutting other content for theirs. You don't really see a lot of posts about cutting out production of Savage and Ultimate to make a new Gold Saucer attraction. As far as we know, the casual content of Expert Dungeons per patch was the cost of most of the casual/experimental content.

Also in terms of manpower, it was mentioned that Ultimates are only doable by about 3 members of the team. Not to say only 3 members are involved in the whole thing, but actually designing the encounter to be on that level is about 3 people. Sure art assets, animations, sound effects, etc are handled by way more, but their team itself lacks top 1%ers.

And much of the argument here seems to be, "I choose to not engage in a lot of content in order for me to say there is no content" vs. "There is a ton of content I can do whether I choose to engage in it or not". If one CHOOSES to play ONLY Paladin on Cutting Edge content... your gaming lifespan in almost any MMO is 2 months. If there is no loot lockout about 2 weeks. Considering FFXIV has easily the fastest content release cycle for the scope of content delivered. If you can find another MMO that releases 10 Raids every 6 Months then I'm sure the HC crowd would love it. (4 Normal 8, 4 Savage 8, 1 24 man, 1 Ultimate Is supposed to be all out every other patch. And this doesn't even include Extreme Trials which would add at least another 2 pieces of high end content per 6 months)



You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

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Wow, this is extremely dishonest. You left out the context being that the casual crowd has repeatedly said that they have more content than they know what to do with. It's seriously like a 90% ratio of casual content to do in this game vs 10% being savage/ultimate, and that is being generous. Probably more like 95/5%. No duh that the raiding crowd is more okay with cutting casual content to receive some hardcore content, since it is heavily, heavily skewed in favor of casuals. Also no, casuals have not asked to cut savage/ultimate, they've only asked to make savage easier, which the devs have done, which is actually in a way cutting content since savage gets finished much quicker. They haven't asked specifically to cut savage/ultimate, they have just said 'no, we don't want raiders having any more content even though we already have 95% of the pie.' Stop being disingenuous, please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

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I'll just rebut this quote with another quote posted right under.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mikhaill

This whole thread is one dude asking for more endgame content and you're all torch and pitchforks at him.
Just going around in circles.
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you level all your jobs?"
"I want more endgame content."
"Ok, but did you finish your sightseeing logs?"
"I want more endgame content."
'Ok, but did you stock your entire Glamour dresser with clothes that look exactly the same every patch?
You get all mounts that you never use? You max gil? You flirted with everyone in Ul'dah?"
I mean damn guys lol.

No one is saying that isn't a lot to do in this game, because there is. It's just once you reach
the end of the road (80 in this case) you do the same thing you've done 6 years ago.
What's wrong with asking for more to do at max level? I don't get it lol.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Probably because they do every content that's available to them in moderation, instead of locusting content that interests

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But do they? Because it seems to me that if this was the case maybe raid clears would be higher. Just like how there are Hardcore that prune out some content I'm certain there are casuals that wont even bother too attempt savage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

If you can still level, you are not at endgame. Its true in every MMO, only difference is, your character has a lot more leveling to do here than everywhere else. There's only a few other games that a character isn't one and done like this one.

Thinking of level cap as 80 and not 2,000 is the mistake. (80 X 25 = 200)

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Um, no. No ones gonna force themselves to play jobs they don't wanna play and
even if they do, you're still left with nothing at the end.
People who keep saying "play slower and not rush" well I mean, I'm not gonna sit here and smell the pixelated roses for 30 years sorry lmao.

The problem is that endgame is just that....the end for you because there's nothing else to feed you.
The climb to it is the most fun really. I'm taking my time but like I said, you can only go so slow...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

You managed to level 17 Adventurers, 8 Crafters, 3 Gatherers to 80, and capped out all of their gear to BiS, and made all of the necessary HC raiding consumables in 2 weeks. I'm impressed, or your not at endgame yet. I think the furthest along I've seen is 6-8 DoW/M and all DoH/L on anybody. And we still have another week until 5.0 is completely out as is...

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I'll echo the sentiments of others. How is levelling a second job conducive to playing my main class of job?

Hint, its not. It used to, when we shared cross class abilities, but that's long since changed.

I've already maxed 3 jobs, on my way to 5, but levelling one battle class and forcing myself to level a job I don't intend to play doesn't enhance or effect the player style of an other, though i appreciate the suggestion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

How is someone possibly completed with Endgame if they can still aren't at that point with everything?

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I feel like you don't understand what endgame content is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nixxe

I feel like you don't understand what endgame content is.

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Everything only doable at level cap... of which there is 25 level caps per character. 26 if you include Blue Mage... of which I'm not, but there is a whole chunk of Endgame BLU content that requires it to be 50.
Yet a lot of the sentiment here... "I'm only playing 4% of my character, but the amount of content for 4% of a character is too little, make more content of 4% of my character and sacrifice part of the other 96% of all characters content to do it."

As of the current the only content based things that we're reduced or moved to other content was, the casual expert dungeon count dropping by one, to make experimental content, which should have things like diadem, eureka, and Baldesion Arsenal in there (tho I believe some of the resources for Ultimate 3 were moved to BA as well, but Ultimate 3 was dropped for a different reason, next sentence). And last cycles Ultimate count dropping by one due to them being of the understanding that players felt burnt out of the first one, and by the time of the 2nd they got the hang of it, but the content for the 3rd was already pulled from the production plan.

Want 4 or 5 Raid tiers an expansion, sacrifice your Ultimates for it, might be possible. I think it's a dumb idea, even if I don't partake of either content when it's current. Even if it would technically result in more over-all content, still think you're better off with the ultimates.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

Wow, this is extremely dishonest. You left out the context being that the casual crowd has repeatedly said that they have more content than they know what to do with. It's seriously like a 90% ratio of casual content to do in this game vs 10% being savage/ultimate, and that is being generous. Probably more like 95/5%. No duh that the raiding crowd is more okay with cutting casual content to receive some hardcore content, since it is heavily, heavily skewed in favor of casuals. Also no, casuals have not asked to cut savage/ultimate, they've only asked to make savage easier, which the devs have done, which is actually in a way cutting content since savage gets finished much quicker. They haven't asked specifically to cut savage/ultimate, they have just said 'no, we don't want raiders having any more content even though we already have 95% of the pie.' Stop being disingenuous, please.

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Easiest way to cut out casual content would be to get the game down to 4 jobs tho, make balancing a lot easier... You can have a 2 Tank, 2 Healer, 4 DPS. Pick which of the 4 tanks stays (PLD most likely), which of the 3 healers (WHM most likely), which of the DPS (BLM or DRG or more likely both)... bam thousands of man hours and dollars pulled out of casual content that can be put into HC content, just every group has to play the exact same things.

Also there's plenty of casuals that don't play everything, and many accept that as their choice to not partake and they lose content due to THEIR OWN CHOICE. I accept that it is my choice that I don't do Extreme/Savage/Ultimate fights, them being cut for things I actually do is still wrong in my opinion. I think the PVP in this game is pretty bad, so I didn't do this piece of essentially endgame content, thus I never got any of the PVP seasonal rewards, doesn't mean I think it should be cut (do think PvP needs to seriously hire a person from elsewhere tho).

I have yet to figure out why they make content easier ever since Steps of Faith MSQ to get into HW... it was doable at launch... now its roflstomp of boredom and people still can't do it at it right.
It's been known for a long time that bleeding edge raiding can't support an MMO. It's why most MMOs only have a bit of it every expansion. Wouldn't be surprised if casual content was cut to make Ultimates, but alas nothing on that matter has been said explicitly so, that's speculation.

Even then, the pacing is nearly twice as fast here. To get HC or any content for that matter at a pace of the people who burned through all of their desired SHB content in 2 weeks, the man-hours and financial costs would probably require our subs to go up by a significant margin.

Heck without the loot lockout in place, for these types of content devourers, starting the expansion at the last patch before the new one would probably put em into a content drought a month out from the new expansion.

I get both sides, on one hand you have the hardcore endgamer. He/she wants to have a good amount of stuff at the endgoal. they reached the cap and now want to jump face first into it.. but they find out that there's only so much to do at 80. Not talking about leveling another job cause more likely then not they got the job they want to feel awesome in. The issue is we only have ultimate, expert, extremes and raids. While that may seem like a decent amount you can do those all in one day really. And once you get the gears unless you like the fights you tend to have nothing to use the gear on. least not until the next tier comes out. On the OTHER hand you have the side of like, you only got one or two jobs to cap. You can craft, lay the tons of mini games we have, hunts and really everything else we have.

While I do understand the statement this expac just came out wait a little bit and more endgame will come, I also understand that most people simply feel like they are being held up at the starting line in endgame and it can get blarghed for them. Yeah they can do ultimate which is still the hardest thing in the game. Personally I say people need to do Rath extreme too cause that is still hard. But I will also say we need MORE of it. I think we got just 2 more 4 man extremes like Rath the hardcores would be happy. Cause they would have something more to sink their teeth into. And there's nothing wrong with that. I want more rath like fights, but again I have to stress this. If you're complaining about a lack of content for you, make sure you're atleast doing the current stuff we have, cause we've all seen those posters who only do the 24 mans and nothing higher making the same complaint And that's why people get so up in arms about it. But asking for more isn't bad, we shouldn't shun more endgame stuff. tho we also need to make sure we're putting our money where our mouth is.

Noone is going to agree if you're not even doing the current stuff. I'm kindof rambing but yeah.. adding atleast 2 more rath like fights would solve the issue I think.. but I don't see that happening cause all people did with rath was bitch about how it was unfair. And sadly SE listens to them more anyone else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Everything only doable at level cap... of which there is 25 level caps per character. 26 if you include Blue Mage... of which I'm not, but there is a whole chunk of Endgame BLU content that requires it to be 50.
Yet a lot of the sentiment here... "I'm only playing 4% of my character, but the amount of content for 4% of a character is too little, make more content of 4% of my character and sacrifice part of the other 96% of that characters content to do it."

As of the current the only content based things that we're reduced or moved to other content was, the casual expert dungeon count dropping by one, to make experimental content. And last cycles Ultimate count dropping by one due to them being of the understanding that players felt burnt out of the first one, and by the time of the 2nd they got the hang of it, but the content for the 3rd was already pulled from the production plan.

Want 4 or 5 Raid tiers an expansion, sacrifice your Ultimates for it, might be possible. I think it's a dumb idea, even if I don't partake of either content when it's current.

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4% is roughly the amount of extra endgame content you'll unlock by leveling every job to cap. The overwhelming bulk of it is accessible from whatever battle job you get to cap first, as it's accessed via the MSQ or a prominent side quest, both of which just require you be some sort of DoW/M. All you're going to get by getting every other job to cap is a handful of 5 min job quests and the Masked Carnival, which many people probably finished during Stormblood. Even if they haven't, the notion that people should need to exhaust literally all content available before expressing any sort of dissatisfaction with the amount or variety available is exceedingly unreasonable.

Besides, this isn't just about raids. I don't even do progression raiding and I constantly run out of things to do that are relevant to my jobs as level 80s. I have to settle for going back and cleaning up old content I missed during ARR (and that's a very shallow well I've almost dried up) or doing endlessly repeatable activities, like gil making. I unsub for around half of each expansion and haven't actually missed out on anything because of it.

Because the end of the game has never existed, there is nothing could be said to be lack of.
As the game itself is a journey, every ending is a new beginning.
Sit, relax and enjoy the journey because every moment is new content.
It is only the end of game when the dev abandon it and move on to the new title.

I would really like to see some more challenging light party content added to the game, weather it's just harder dungeons/trials or something new. My friends and I often go back and unsync/undersize raids and trials from previous expansions and figure out ways to complete them with only 3-4 people. It's lots of fun, but it would be great to have some endgame stuff we could do as a group as well.

I think a harder 24 man difficulty would be interesting as well. Maybe just make the rewards the same as the normal version, but dyeable like they do for the 8 mans.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OcieKo

Even then, the pacing is nearly twice as fast here. To get HC or any content for that matter at a pace of the people who burned through all of their desired SHB content in 2 weeks, the man-hours and financial costs would probably require our subs to go up by a significant margin.

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If I knew more HC content was in the pipeline beyond the normal formula that we have gotten, I would not be making my posts with such fervor. Alas, I can already see the same formula has already been set in place again with the way they set up the expert dungeons, tomes, and extremes. This is the same precursor to 4 savage trials that we have always been given. The same exact meal that we have been fed for 6 years, and it is not only stale, but does not satisfy the hunger for very long.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Elleia

I would really like to see some more challenging light party content added to the game, weather it's just harder dungeons/trials or something new. My friends and I often go back and unsync/undersize raids and trials from previous expansions and figure out ways to complete them with only 3-4 people. It's lots of fun, but it would be great to have some endgame stuff we could do as a group as well.

I think a harder 24 man difficulty would be interesting as well. Maybe just make the rewards the same as the normal version, but dyeable like they do for the 8 mans.

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Making harder versions of 4 man content, is currently off the table due to it requiring the same developers who make savage and ultimate 8 man content, which the team feels is a better use of their time, as it reaches more people while being more possible to work and learn through mistakes. If I remember correctly, Yoshi likes the idea of it, but the reality of actually doing it stops it pretty early.
I believe harder 24 man wasn't as plainly refuted, but I think Yoshi mentioned wanting to focus on larger group harder content like Baldesion Aresenal instead of it.
Questions of this variety were asked during the Media Events in April/May.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zabuza

If I knew more HC content was in the pipeline beyond the normal formula that we have gotten, I would not be making my posts with such fervor. Alas, I can already see the same formula has already been set in place again with the way they set up the expert dungeons, tomes, and extremes. This is the same precursor to 4 savage trials that we have always been given. The same exact meal that we have been fed for 6 years, and it is not only stale, but does not satisfy the hunger for very long.

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If you're referring to the reduction of the 8man "raid" being reduced down from Coils to Alexander to Omega/Eden that we have now, ya that's a bit sad even on the normal difficulty.
Pretty sure the original SB plan of 3 Ultimates is planned for SHB since the initial reception changed with the 2nd one. So HC should be at least a little bigger this expansion than it ended up being last one. Even if the plan is the same, the need to revise the plan early on shouldn't be there this time. Unless the developers that create the fights burn out of making them.

Keep in mind, changing too much of the formula would most likely result in a lot less content overall. I.E. 4 Ultimates, but raid tiers are 3 fights instead of 4. Personally I'm rather fond of the 2.5-3.5 month major patch cycle, and with the amount of content in the X.X5 patches nowadays its almost 1.5-2 month patch cycle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avraym

You'll find very quickly, that the amount specifically intended for max level is almost non existent.

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which many have conceded but retorted that this game isn't designed very heavily for the "race to cap, now what?" crowd.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avraym

But it's incredibly limited. In NO other MMORPG's expansion that I've played, have I be been able to beat the story, reach max level and acquire the best in slot gear for MULTIPLE jobs, in less than two weeks.

There is a lot to do in this game, but there's just very very limited amounts of content that is both challenging and rewarding to do at max level.

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Again, this has been stated to be by design. Your definitions of challenging and rewarding are very strict , FFXIV tends to cater to the largest playerbase possible with the majority of content, this means challenges have to be average, we've hit a certain plateau of difficulty that the Dev team is happy with and most players can manage. They've acknowledged people want challenges above that and tried to provide but they also know that the gimme challenge crowd is very small.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avraym

Why is it so absurd, that reaching your characters full power potential in such a short amount of time is a problem?
Why is it so absurd, that perhaps after the 3rd expansion, that still getting the same formulaic content has grown lacking?
Why is it so absurd, that there is so much for casual players to do, but so little for raiders.

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Because as advertised this is a Themepark Game and that entails a holistic approach, if taken for face value at only one aspect it will always be lacking. The forumula has been working and continues to work for the last 6 years, it's showing a little strain now that we have 2 more races to provide for though so who knows if we'll even get the same amount of content now. It is NOT only a casual game unless "casual" means "not endgame" content. The crafting and marketboard scene is a daily madhouse for some. The completionists hunt their achievements constantly (not to mention the huntmarks and their 24 hour linkshells). People have alts, people run RP, people even use it as the backdrop for just social gatherings and events. This isn't casual VS Raiders. Some people likely play more than you do and feel just as fulfilled by the things you consider "unrewarding" as you do by a fresh raid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avraym

We enjoy the content we get, but we shouldn't be condemned for pointing out how little raid content there is despite the growing player base and increase in raiders.

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Condemned? You shouldn't be, but expect that when you propose focusing on "endgame" content only that there will be pushback because more of something means less of something else with this development team. The established userbase tends to like the way things are and expects certain things at certain times along with a game they can play casually and still be on par with someone who focuses solely on endgame dungeon runs.

This is how it has been for 6 years and while some may say change is good, why are you surprised people react negatively to a represented community going "OK but all the other stuff is fluff, gimme more of that one thing I love" which implies the other part is worthless. You may not truly feel that, you probably understand that everyone has that thing they like about the game they play, but while you feel you're simply asking for more of what YOU want, you are indirectly asking for the less raid oriented community to sacrifice a different part for that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ksuyen

Because the end of the game has never existed, there is nothing could be said to be lack of.
As the game itself is a journey, every ending is a new beginning.
Sit, relax and enjoy the journey because every moment is new content.
It is only the end of game when the dev abandon it and move on to the new title.

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I would say Yes and No on that.
As an MMO there's no real end to it. As you decide how you want to play the game once you reach max level and the end of the current story.
But once the story is done for the current version and you've done all the latest dungeons/trials/raids. What is there to do besides older repeatable content?

This is something I find myself in each update. I do the story, the latest dungeons/trials/raids, I get the best current gear. And since I don't really care for mount farming, glamour farming etc. (Except when it's something I really like visually)
I don't care about leveling other jobs and don't care about achivements. There's not much to do honestly then to sit and wait for the next update.
Which is why I jump between games to fill my time.
Nothing sais I have to stay in one game and dedicate my whole interest into it.
So I can't really say that I am complaining.
Just adding my voice that endgame is fairly short lived unless people do older content.
But to be honest, all MMOs are like that.
So FFXIV isn't an exception.
It's just how appealing that older content is to people that makes it worth it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Krotoan

Condemned? You shouldn't be, but expect that when you propose focusing on "endgame" content only that there will be pushback because more of something means less of something else with this development team. The established userbase tends to like the way things are and expects certain things at certain times along with a game they can play casually and still be on par with someone who focuses solely on endgame dungeon runs.

This is how it has been for 6 years and while some may say change is good, why are you surprised people react negatively to a represented community going "OK but all the other stuff is fluff, gimme more of that one thing I love" which implies the other part is worthless. You may not truly feel that, you probably understand that everyone has that thing they like about the game they play, but while you feel you're simply asking for more of what YOU want, you are indirectly asking for the less raid oriented community to sacrifice a different part for that.

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The game isn't the same as it was 6 years ago. It has grown. It has more revenue, more support and a bigger team. It has more resources it can recycle to create new content which all other games rightfully do.
So why are we fed the same amount of content and why does it mean resources need to necessarily be taken away from something? Would it be so difficult to invest a little more into something we can all agree doesn't have a lot currently invested into?

Nobody is implying casual content is worthless. We'd just like OUR side to be a little more sated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Avraym

The game isn't the same as it was 6 years ago. It has grown. It has more revenue, more support and a bigger team. It has more resources it can recycle to create new content which all other games rightfully do.
So why are we fed the same amount of content and why does it mean resources need to necessarily be taken away from something? Would it be so difficult to invest a little more into something we can all agree doesn't have a lot currently invested into?

Nobody is implying casual content is worthless. We'd just like OUR side to be a little more sated.

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It's because they pump their ressources into stuff like Blue Mage, Bard Performance, Combat Replay, GATEs (okay, I am not against new gates, but that rollercoster was maybe a bit over the top for what it is), adding systems like Trusts when we already have Squadron, a half baked Glamour Dresser... And honestly removing the relic from dungeons made dungeons kind of obsolete after leveling. So we maybe can add Dungeons to the list too. Then solo inctance story content where you play as another character...

I would not even say that these things are casual content. I hardly would call these things content at all.

Well and treasure map dungeons, wich are content but kind of niche...