BLU for Duty Finder and Raids! Show your support!

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Originally Posted by Alleo

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Again, if people got their hopes up by assuming that SE would change their mind simply because they already did a few times, that's their own fault. SE never hyped anyone about making BLU a regular job. Quite the opposite, in fact. So if some people thought that they were going to do the opposite, that's on them, not on SE.
If I change my mind about what I want to eat today, does it mean that I'll paint the door in red when I said that I was going to paint it in green? No. And assuming that would be ridiculous. Stop trying to find people some lame excuses because they got their hopes crushed after hyping themselves over the complete opposite of what they were told.

Regarding the 70/30, they already said that they didn't only listen to the vocal minority. I don't have anything to tell you on the matter, and I'm not here to debunk any conspiration theory of whatever. I was just quoting an official number given by the game's director. Do whatever you want with it, I don't really care.

For the Carnival: good for you to insist on it. But it wasn't my point. That's all I'm saying. Feel free to argue with anyone else about the issues you think are important. But not with me, as I didn't bring it up at all. I just said that Yoshida gave an answer to these "this is an MMO! REEEEE!" silly arguments. If you want to use strawmans or move goalposts, do as you wish, but don't expect me to follow.

As for the end, of course, people are free to express themselves. I never said otherwise. But on that point, I have to remind people that they are not entitled to anything, and that saying stuff like "SE is just lazy" while showing a clear lack of any game design knowledge doesn't help anything or anyone. And it's also not because they voice their minds that SE has to respond or change anything. It seems that people can't accept that. The same people saying "this is a waste of ressources, delete". There's a difference in providing constructive criticism and acting like a spoiled child.

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Edit: Just to be clear, I'm done with this back and forth. I don't see it bringing anything worth debating over. That's basically the third time I'm repeating what I already said. It's going a bit too much in circles to my tastes. Feel free to answer one more time if you want the last word though, I'd gladly give it to you.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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Just to take a few points you made:

Your changing your mind on what to eat analogy doesn't quite apply, its more of a case of, if I change my mind on whether to paint my door red or green based on what other people said about it, it would be reasonable to assume you could get me to change my mind on what colour to paint my shed. Just because those old interview exists, it doesn't mean its peoples fault to get upset when they do what they said. Its like with article 13 in the EU atm, the EU said they wanted it their way, people responded with no we want it our way, then they carried on doing it their way anyway, is it then the peoples fault for expecting them to change their mind and getting their hopes up?

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

Belittling the other argument by saying "This is an mmo, REE!", calling it silly and the other name calling you do the other side is also poor argumentation, there's a difference between constructive criticism and being and acting like an ass.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

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There's maybe 100-150 unique posters in this 69 (Nice.) page long thread. The angry thread on Reddit was off the front page by the 2nd day. My worthless anecdotal evidence is that everyone I have explained the blu job to think it sounds cool as hell and whenever it's come up in fc chat the ratio of people who think it sounds cool vs. people disappointed they can't main blu is 10:1. I've gotten literally 0 pushback from anyone on the concept of limited jobs itself, just some disappointed blu fans mad it happened to them.

Frankly, if I had my way, all new jobs from here on would be limited.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

There's maybe 100-150 unique posters in this 69 (Nice.) page long thread. The angry thread on Reddit was off the front page by the 2nd day. My worthless anecdotal evidence is that everyone I have explained the blu job to think it sounds cool as hell and whenever it's come up in fc chat the ratio of people who think it sounds cool vs. people disappointed they can't main blu is 10:1. I've gotten literally 0 pushback from anyone on the concept of limited jobs itself, just some disappointed blu fans mad it happened to them.

Frankly, if I had my way, all new jobs from here on would be limited.

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Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

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Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

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I have never seen something on r/ffxiv stay on the front page for more than 1 day, no matter how upvoted or commented it is, again anecdotal but that was also one of the most commented on threads I have ever seen on the sub, with a fairly decent amount of upvotes, if that can't stay on the front page for more than a day then nothing can

Edit: After spending some time just scrolling through the top posts of all time on the sub, the only thing I can find close to the number of comments on the original BLU discussion thread is when the job guides went up for stormblood and that still has 800 less comments, so unless I can find anything else, it might be the most commented on thread in the sub, so if that doesn't last more than a day (assuming thats accurate idk) then again what would?

Edit 2: Found a givaway thread with more comments, previous points still stand

Final Edit: Found a statistics website, it is the 5th most commented thread on the sub of all time, previous points again still stand

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Yeah, anectodal evidence like that is pretty worthless, because I could also say everyone I know hates the idea of limited jobs and the implementation of blue mage they are going for. So as it stands unless theres some kind of secret census we don't know about, 70% sounds made up because the OF and Reddit are the only public feedback we get. Also your point about it being off the front page in a day is kinda wrong, they actually made 2 blu threads because the first was so popular, and the way reddit works is that content naturally gets pushed off after a day or so, it doesn't go back to the top unless you pin it, unless it was pinned or mega threaded, you would need to make a new blu discussion daily to keep it on the front page.

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There's all sorts of other forums and social media that the community team presumably trawls for their data, because official forums like this one are inherently worthless for metrics (only people overly invested in a game will post on official forums and this forum in particular has a lot of people who look at ff11 fondly and also occasionally pine for 1.0 so their opinions are safe to disregard). But they are great for yelling at nobody in particular.

Although, just to be clear, I think they made that percentage up too. Not because I think it's wrong, but because knowing that would imply the community team is doing their job and that is a great joke if I ever heard one.

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

And there's also the matter of how Yoshida worded his point. According to him, 70% of the reactions where positive about Blue Mage. He didn't say that 70% of the reactions where positive about limited jobs. There is a difference. I myself have said that I really like what they have done with Blue Mage, but I am strongly against forcing Blue Mage, and other limited jobs, from participating in content. Could my reaction be considered positive towards Blue Mage specifically? That's up for interpretation.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Uh no... As long as it has lots of upvotes and comments, it stays on the first page for a while. It went to the second page due to lack of interest over more interesting threads.

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That's not how Reddit works.

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

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Thats exactly my problem with numbers like that. What did they ask or look for? Where did they get it? How many sites did they look over to get it? Was it unbiased or did they look at this through their own filters? (It would be much better if we had a ingame questionnaire after the release to get true answers to this)

Also what I found quite interesting: I checked the site for 4.5 and they only write: New job Blue mage there. No hint that it would be limited at all. If someone does not follow any interviews/liveletters they might even get the idea that this is a normal job in this game. Why not include the word "limited" in it?

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Originally Posted by Blueyes

Let's not take this "70% of players are okay with this" for more than what it's worth. Make no mistake. There are players out there who have only watched the trailer for Blue Mage. They may react to that with, "awesome! Blue Mage looks great and I really look forward to playing it." That's positive feedback, but this person who only watched the trailer would be completely oblivious to the fact that Blue Mage is a limited job. Yoshida himself said that people don't read interviews, and I'd be willing to bet that even fewer people take the time to watch Letters from the Producer. And those are the only places were you'll hear about the limitations imposed on Blue Mage, other than talks among the community.

And there's also the matter of how Yoshida worded his point. According to him, 70% of the reactions where positive about Blue Mage. He didn't say that 70% of the reactions where positive about limited jobs. There is a difference. I myself have said that I really like what they have done with Blue Mage, but I am strongly against forcing Blue Mage, and other limited jobs, from participating in content. Could my reaction be considered positive towards Blue Mage specifically? That's up for interpretation.

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Your entire point assumes SE's metrics are using feedback from sources that are unaware of BLUs limitations. I'm far more likely to trust their metric than this foundless assertion.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Your entire point assumes SE's metrics are using feedback from sources that are unaware of BLUs limitations. I'm far more likely to trust their metric than this foundless assertion.

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Ah yes, like how Yoship said on MCH's and DRK's release that "Their data was fine and that people were just getting used to the jobs" or how "People complaining about MCH needed to get good, because their data showed it's damage was perfectly fine"?

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Just to take a few points you made:

Your changing your mind on what to eat analogy doesn't quite apply, its more of a case of, if I change my mind on whether to paint my door red or green based on what other people said about it, it would be reasonable to assume you could get me to change my mind on what colour to paint my shed. Just because those old interview exists, it doesn't mean its peoples fault to get upset when they do what they said. Its like with article 13 in the EU atm, the EU said they wanted it their way, people responded with no we want it our way, then they carried on doing it their way anyway, is it then the peoples fault for expecting them to change their mind and getting their hopes up?

On the 70/30 split, who are you to decide what the vocal minority is, judging by reddit and the OF it honestly does not seem 70/30, a 50/50 would see more reasonable to me at best, so SE should source where they are getting this from, saying its the official number and reporting it as fact or "Don't really care" is a dangerous precedent to set.

Belittling the other argument by saying "This is an mmo, REE!", calling it silly and the other name calling you do the other side is also poor argumentation, there's a difference between constructive criticism and being and acting like an ass.

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1. When there is no evidence of any kind of change, yes, hoping for a miracle coming from nowhere that would contradict previous statements is setting yourself up for dissapointment.

2. Reddit and official forums are by default vocal minorities. Or maybe are you implying that a majority of players participates in these debates? If that's the case, that's ridiculous. So yeah, 150 upvotes on a thread's OP is far from being a majority.

3. I have the right to think that some arguments are ridiculous and silly. And I have the right to say it. If you're gonna say stupid stuff openly on the Internet, you should expect criticism. Also, as I've already said, I already argued against that argument before. If you don't like my interpretation of what came out of that argument, then sorry but not sorry.
I respect people's right to express their opinion. But I don't have to respect the opinion itself, especially if it's trash.
If saying that an argument is silly when it objectively is (yes, wanting a new job to be deleted for the only reason that it's "designed for solo play" in a theme park "MMORPG" which already has a ton of single player content is silly and egoistic in regards to the players who already expressed being excited for it) makes me an ass, then I gladly take the label.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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I wrote out a long reply because I was bored on the train, but it got deleted due to signal dropping and I can't be bothered to type it all out again.
Basically: There is evidence of them changing their mind about jobs, see drk/war/mch
Im saying the 70% number is worthless if we dont know where its from, so until its sourced, the forums are the only way we can gauge albeit a shite one
And thats like, your opinion, don't need to act so aggressive and superior, theres more constructive ways other than ""objectively silly", like its not, in your opinion which is no way objective its silly. People expect criticism on the internet but in a discussion they at least expect it to be constructive not just "ur wrong and entitled".
Also last page I thought you said you were done with this, clearly not.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I wrote out a long reply because I was bored on the train, but it got deleted due to signal dropping and I can't be bothered to type it all out again.
Basically: There is evidence of them changing their mind about jobs, see drk/war/mch
Im saying the 70% number is worthless if we dont know where its from, so until its sourced, the forums are the only way we can gauge albeit a shite one
And thats like, your opinion, don't need to act so aggressive and superior, theres more constructive ways other than ""objectively silly", like its not, in your opinion which is no way objective its silly. People expect criticism on the internet but in a discussion they at least expect it to be constructive not just "ur wrong and entitled".
Also last page I thought you said you were done with this, clearly not.

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There was no evidence of them going to change their minds about Blue Mage. Evidence of them changing DRK or whatever is not evidence to support a change of stance regarding a completly different matter. That's what my analogy was about, you didn't get it unfortunatly.

The "70%" is from the game's director. You may think it's a worthless piece of data, but that data is not for you. You being unhappy about their audit methods is irrelevant, they won't change them for you if the results are not going in your way. Yoshida basically said "we're happy with the feedback we got". You have no weight in deciding if they are satisfied or not.

For the fifth time, I already gave "constructive criticism" about the "MMORPG" argument. Besides, yes, I can very well say that people are wrong and entitled if I think they are. And yes, playing a theme park mmorpg and not accepting theme park mmorpg activities and wanting to remove them even if other people might have fun with is is silly and egoistic. If you don't see why, that's not my problem.
Edit: Just to make it clear, you are currently defending an opinion where people think of themselves so high that they don't care if they end up stripping other player's enjoyment out of the game. And you basically are asking me to play the "nice guy" card and not to "act superior". Not a chance. I despise people who only care about themselves while not giving a damn if they hurt others in the process. And you are actively defending these people right now, against the "ass, bad and superior acting" me. If they want to argue with me, let them, they don't need a white knight.

As for me being done, I told that to Alleo about the argument we had. I never told that to you. Did you think you'd get a free card at being insulting without me answering? Good try.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

I despise people who only care about themselves while not giving a damn if they hurt others in the process.

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You need to take a good look at your posts in this thread then.

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And yes, playing a theme park mmorpg and not accepting theme park mmorpg activities and wanting to remove them even if other people might have fun with is is silly and egoistic.

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But hardly anyone wants to remove the Masked Carnival element and the spellbook log. The complaints are requests for adding content to the game in the form of BLU as an unlimited, proper job. And you have made your claim why you don't think that would work or that they devs shouldn't invest in it, but that's neither here nor there. Unless I missed some crusade to get Masked Carnival burned down since last time I posted here, no one wants to take anything away from anyone, at least not on the side of people who want to see BLU unlocked.

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Originally Posted by Fyce

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You're shifting the goalposts now about evidence, of course theres no evidence specifically about blue mage, we only just got it announced.
Whoa there as Billy said no one is saying anything about ripping out the carnival, at least im not, im saying i want it in df and raids as well, at a proper level. Im not defending people wanting content being stripped out. And as billy pointed out you are doing exactly what you are on a crusade against people with another opinion to you.
As for "that data is not for you", true its for marketing. Im not trying to say Yoshi and co arn't satisfied, im saying im not satisfied and neither should any player, because we don't know its origin. It'd be like me saying in an essay 70% of killer whales prefer the taste of human, then when asked about it I say, well im satisfied with where i got the data so there. And before you be a pedant and say its not an essay so it doesnt apply, it does, if you throw out statistics you need to back them up. Why do you need to do this? Because 70% of people agree with me from data ive gathered from non descript locations, and im satisfied.
And no I wasnt just praying you'd go away or something, i was curious as to why you were still here when you said you were leaving, apparantly i misinterpretted you.
I'm not trying to white knight anyone. You're making up a group of people im apparantly arguing for and represent

So people that want blue mage as a true job while still having the carneval as the solo part are now those that think to high of themselves and that are hurting others?

People want it in other content and have said more than once that they would be fine if they still have certain skill for solo play. The change that people want would make it a win win for everyone. Have the solo carnival to test your skills, be able to kill monsters outside of instances with awesome moves that you learned from monsters and have people that want it in content too be able to use it there with a certain rotation that you get by doing the job quests (which are already there for this blue mage)

But okay that opinion is hurtful and totally trash in some peoples opinion...

What exactly is still solo content on the blue mage that we are seemingly getting? Yoshida talks about having a solo part in an MMO and changing things up but the only thing that makes it different from other jobs in that part is the carnival and the collection of monster skill (which probably need groups for some of them anyway) and them not being able to do recent content. Everything else can already be done with normal jobs too and heck these normal jobs can even try more solo challenges on top of that. (Eureka and Deep dungeons)

A blue can go around and kill monsters on the overworld -> can be done by any other job too (and other jobs level better with Fates). Its not like you need to do group play if you want to level up another job. You can do this solely by killing monsters and doing fates.
A blue can go and do dungeon and primals (but it remains to be seen if they can do that solo, I doubt it) -> any other job can do dungeons and primals for farming solo with unsynch too

And SE already is introducing other solo playstyles with Shadowbringers by giving us the new NPC system which seemingly allows people to go into Shadowbringer dungeons with NPCs. So this game is already quite solo friendly and is turning even more solo friendly in the future. All your gatherers and crafters are kinda solo, all jobs can be leveled solo too, the MSQ is mostly solo with some group instaces but that might change in the next expansion (and nobody truly stops anyone from leveling to max level outside of it and then running each dungeon for the MSQ unsynch). Honestly the only group content you need people for are PVP (which can be kinda solo too since you can ignore your team completely and do your own thing for marks) and savage/extreme instances in current content. (And again if you wait long enough you can get everything from this one or two expansions down the line solo too)

Honestly this game is already in many ways more a single player game than a MMO. And its fine because there is enough for both sides to do. Yet now suddenly they talk about more solo stuff by introducing a limited job that honestly cant do that much more solo than other jobs and that next to the carnival offers nothing that more special in that part than other jobs.

So IMO having it as a normal job with some special functions in solo content and the carnival on top of that would be the best version and would please both sides too.

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Originally Posted by MrKimper

Ah yes, like how Yoship said on MCH's and DRK's release that "Their data was fine and that people were just getting used to the jobs" or how "People complaining about MCH needed to get good, because their data showed it's damage was perfectly fine"?

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Except players had numerical data to support their requests for buffs. You have something to show that their metrics are using feedback from sources unfamiliar with BLUs limitation?

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Except players had numerical data to support their requests for buffs. You have something to show that their metrics are using feedback from sources unfamiliar with BLUs limitation?

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We dont have metrics for that but we also can see that this official forum is quite splitted on its opinion about blue with some being in the "I wait for release to judge it-camp". The JP forum also seems to be similiar to ours, reddit was also talking quite much about this after fanfest and liveletter, and both times it was again splitted. So it really begs the question on where they go their data from? There was no questionaire on this forum or per mail. How big was their sample? What questions did they ask or what answers did they look for?

They cant have asked the majority of their playerbase because most probably wont even see things like fanfest, liveletters or twitter posts and at least on reddit and here its definitely not 70/30.

(And I do doubt the answers even more since they are only calling it a new job on the special page so who knows how accurate any numbers are)

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Originally Posted by Alleo

We dont have metrics for that but we also can see that this official forum is quite splitted on its opinion about blue with some being in the "I wait for release to judge it-camp". The JP forum also seems to be similiar to ours, reddit was also talking quite much about this after fanfest and liveletter, and both times it was again splitted. So it really begs the question on where they go their data from? There was no questionaire on this forum or per mail. How big was their sample? What questions did they ask or what answers did they look for?

They cant have asked the majority of their playerbase because most probably wont even see things like fanfest, liveletters or twitter posts and at least on reddit and here its definitely not 70/30.

(And I do doubt the answers even more since they are only calling it a new job on the special page so who knows how accurate any numbers are)

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I can see as well and honestly, aside from the vocal who continually post about it I don't see so heavily a split as you're implying, least not from glossing over the threads from here and reddit and the responses on facebook. I've no reason to believe that their auditing team is so cursory as that though.

They didn't perform a poll. This metric didn't require a questionnaire. Their auditors monitored and collected the responses of people from across social media.

Of course they didn't ask the majority of the playerbase, they didn't ask anyone, it wasn't necessary for what they were doing.

The question and answer pertained to the response to BLUs announcement at the FanFest and the resulting reactions. Why would they collect response data that doesn't pertain to the situation [BLU and its design and people's feelings on it]? I see no reason beyond player generated marketing paranoia to believe that SE would be that deceitful over this without some sort of evidence.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

I see no reason beyond player generated marketing paranoia to believe that SE would be that deceitful over this without some sort of evidence.

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Then explain why the patch site doesn't say it's a limited job. Seems kind of important to mention.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Then explain why the patch site doesn't say it's a limited job. Seems kind of important to mention.

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On a patch site intended to tease upcoming content? Even if they used the term "limited job", unless they devoted excess space to detail what that meant it'd be meaningless.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

On a patch site intended to tease upcoming content? Even if they used the term "limited job", unless they devoted excess space to detail what that meant it'd be meaningless.

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The site right now is teasing BLU as a new job. Within the context of XIV that's a very solid concept. BLU does not fall under that concept. Right now, the patch site teases something that will not be delivered in 4.5. It is false advertisement.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The site right now is teasing BLU as a new job. Within the context of XIV that's a very solid concept. BLU does not fall under that concept. Right now, the patch site teases something that will not be delivered in 4.5. It is false advertisement.

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Very solid concept? What concept do you believe that is?

The patch site is teasing a new job and in 4.5 we're getting a new job.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Very solid concept? What concept do you believe that is?

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An entity within the lore with a pre-established skill-set you equip on your character and run content with. Skills and lore are unlocked via additional quests. Can hit max level cap, which is upgraded with every exception.
And just in case you still found some holes to pick at it, the fact remains they presented BLU as a Limited Job in fanfest, setting it apart from regular jobs, and then proceeded to explain how it differs (DF lock, max level currently at 50).
Saying it's a "Limited job" would require them to add an explanation? Then they should've done exactly that. Because absolutely no one is going to look at that site and think for a second they're getting anything other than what I said at the start of this post.

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The patch site is teasing a new job and in 4.5 we're getting a new job.

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We're getting a Limited Job. It's really not the same thing. You can argue the language semantics all you want but therein lies the crux of the matter and why so many people here have a hard time believing in that "70% positive feedback" claim. Calling BLU a Job is a lie of omission.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

An entity within the lore with a pre-established skill-set you equip on your character and run content with. Skills and lore are unlocked via additional quests. Can hit max level cap, which is upgraded with every exception.
And just in case you still found some holes to pick at it, the fact remains they presented BLU as a Limited Job in fanfest, setting it apart from regular jobs, and then proceeded to explain how it differs (DF lock, max level currently at 50).
Saying it's a "Limited job" would require them to add an explanation? Then they should've done exactly that.

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You are defining a job as something that must be able to hit max level cap upon release...why? I don't see how that is part of the concept of a job.
Because other than that restriction of yours, BLU fits your concept of a job.

And no, they shouldn't have as it was unnecessary. When people go to unlock BLU, it and the functions around it, will be explained to them in-game. Why would they need to go on an extended explanation on a teaser site over this?

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Calling BLU a Job is a lie of omission.

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If you choose to define a job as something that can level to 70/80 and join Duty Finder. Neither of those criteria are something I view as intrinsic to a job.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Because other than that restriction of yours, BLU fits your concept of a job.

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And that's why BLU is a Limited Job. Or should I have added "run current content, including MSQ" to the list? Because BLU can't do that either. BLU can't use the Duty Finder either. And the list of Limitations go on.
I didn't see the need to start listing 80% of the game's content that BLU doesn't have access to to show really how they're separate.

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When people go to unlock BLU, it and the functions around it, will be explained to them in-game. Why would they need to go on an extended explanation on a teaser site over this?

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Because otherwise people are going to unlock BLU and wonder why they can't do all these things that a Job should be able to do. There was a lot of talk in this thread about expectations. Well this is SE actively leading people astray.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Can hit max level cap, which is upgraded with every exception.

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You didn't answer why you feel that is a requirement to be considered a job.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

And that's why BLU is a Limited Job.

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They used the word "limited" to denote that BLU would have restrictions the other jobs did not, not to mark it as something not a job. That is why it is limited.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

You didn't answer why you feel that is a requirement to be considered a job.

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Because a lower level cap is one of the limitations that make BLU a limited job. You know, that thing SE themselves said it was. A job in XIV can do whatever a limited job can, the other way around doesn't work.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

Because a lower level cap is one of the limitations that make BLU a limited job. You know, that thing SE themselves said it was. A job in XIV can do whatever a limited job can, the other way around doesn't work.

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Both jobs and "limited' jobs are being classified as a job. So something is not meshing between your criteria and SE's as to what constitutes a job. I'm just trying to understand what.

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Originally Posted by SDaemon

Both jobs and "limited' jobs are being classified as a job. So something is not meshing between your criteria and SE's as to what constitutes a job. I'm just trying to understand what.

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The fact that BLU is a limited job, and they should've advertised it as such. Because no one is going to look at the site and think "yeah that thing's going to be capped at level 50 and I will have no df access whatsoever".
The semantic you're championing is exactly what they're hiding behind, and why I called it a lie of omission. You can sort of say they're not wrong - a limited job is a subset of jobs in the game, with limitations. But there's a lot that they're not saying when they call it simply a "job", too.
Will be interesting to see how many "I made a forum account just to ask why BLU is capped at 50" or things along those lines

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

The fact that BLU is a limited job, and they should've advertised it as such. Because no one is going to look at the site and think "yeah that thing's going to be capped at level 50 and I will have no df access whatsoever".
The semantic you're championing is exactly what they're hiding behind, and why I called it a lie of omission. You can sort of say they're not wrong - a limited job is a subset of jobs in the game, with limitations. But there's a lot that they're not saying when they call it simply a "job", too.
Will be interesting to see how many "I made an account just to ask why BLU i

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I'm not championing semantics. You're championing the differences between the two focused on limitations and not what about the both of them make it a job. There isn't any arguing that limited jobs cannot do things that the other jobs can and content available to the limited job that isn't to the others. I'm arguing that those differences don't make it not a job in regards to what a job actually is and as such announcing it as a new job isn't false advertisement. Could SE have gone into great deal about BLUs design on the patch site? Sure. I don't see the necessity of that though. Its restrictions and available content will be clearly given to players in-game. If someone unlocks BLU and then is confused why they can't level past 50 or join the DF that isn't on SE who provided them with that information when they unlocked it.

I think the real problem is the fact that they have over 100 abilities already planned for Blue Mage.. compare that to the roughly 25 for current classes (and even that they want to trim down if I'm not mistaken, albiet for bloat reasons more so than balancing but still). Yes, they can only have a certain number of spells active at one time.... but in order to balance it properly, they have to consider ALL of the spells and how each can interact with one another. This is a nightmare for the dev team, I'd imagine. The only way I could see this working is if they restrict what spells can be used in raid content, which I think people would be pretty unhappy about and it would make it kind of messy because they want you to find the abilities on your own but you need to have certain ones in order to raid and it'd just be a pretty confusing scenario, honestly.

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Originally Posted by Mikki

I think the real problem is the fact that they have over 100 abilities already planned for Blue Mage.. compare that to the roughly 25 for current classes (and even that they want to trim down if I'm not mistaken, albiet for bloat reasons more so than balancing but still). Yes, they can only have a certain number of spells active at one time.... but in order to balance it properly, they have to consider ALL of the spells and how each can interact with one another. This is a nightmare for the dev team, I'd imagine. The only way I could see this working is if they restrict what spells can be used in raid content, which I think people would be pretty unhappy about and it would make it kind of messy because they want you to find the abilities on your own but you need to have certain ones in order to raid and it'd just be a pretty confusing scenario, honestly.

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From the few skills we've seen, some already seem to be kinda worthless, for example the fish slap ability has 10 potency, so that doesn't need balancing so if there are other abilities like that which are funny but bad then that narrows it down, theres also the potential of repeat skills, ie frost breath, aqua breath ect, which have the exact same function but hit different elemental weakness in the carnival, if we assume a few of these "Functionally idenetical but different looking" with the situational/ useless ones, a usable rotation of 24 could be reached out of 100 skills.

They also said in one of the recent interviews or what not that if only by virtue of how much anything costs, you'd have to devise a rotation anyway. And these rotations likely aren't going to be out from thin air, they were designed intentionally.

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Originally Posted by BillyKaplan

You need to take a good look at your posts in this thread then.

But hardly anyone wants to remove the Masked Carnival element and the spellbook log. The complaints are requests for adding content to the game in the form of BLU as an unlimited, proper job. And you have made your claim why you don't think that would work or that they devs shouldn't invest in it, but that's neither here nor there. Unless I missed some crusade to get Masked Carnival burned down since last time I posted here, no one wants to take anything away from anyone, at least not on the side of people who want to see BLU unlocked.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Whoa there as Billy said no one is saying anything about ripping out the carnival, at least im not, im saying i want it in df and raids as well, at a proper level. Im not defending people wanting content being stripped out. And as billy pointed out you are doing exactly what you are on a crusade against people with another opinion to you.

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I'm sorry? I absolutly never asked for some content to be removed or stopped because I didn't like it, or because "I don't think it fits in a MMORPG". Not even LoV or Mahjong. And if you didn't see the countless people and the upvotes they got when they said that they'd rather see BLU never implemented than this Limited version, then yeah, you have no clue at who exactly was my post directed to.
I mean... this very thread is called "SE, the concept of "Limited Jobs" is a really bad idea, turn back now", has 157 upvotes, and the OP used the "this is an MMORPG" argument. And while the OP doesn't openly say that they'd want Limited BLU removed (they want it "adjusted" whatever that means), some others in that thread were not as kind.
I could find you other examples, but I have a feeling that it'd be a waste of time and effort for a dissapointing result.

Besides, I always admitted that if it was possible and realistic to please everyone, then it would be wonderful. Or maybe you thought that because I debunked some bad ideas/solutions that wouldn't work, I was against pleasing everyone? If that's the case, then stop it right now, because you are deeply mistaken.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

You're shifting the goalposts now about evidence, of course theres no evidence specifically about blue mage, we only just got it announced.

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I don't know what you're talking about. It has always been about BLU. I'm not moving goalposts. What I'm telling you is that there is no correlation between them changing their mind on something, and them changing their minds on BLU. Again, it's not because there are cases of them shifting plans that you can assume that they'll always to that. That's all I'm saying.
But let's be clear here, because the subject is slowly moving away. I'm not saying that "I hoped that SE would change their mind" is wrong. It was about people who were surprised that SE didn't change their mind when there was no reason to be surprised.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

As for "that data is not for you", true its for marketing. Im not trying to say Yoshi and co arn't satisfied, im saying im not satisfied and neither should any player, because we don't know its origin. It'd be like me saying in an essay 70% of killer whales prefer the taste of human, then when asked about it I say, well im satisfied with where i got the data so there. And before you be a pedant and say its not an essay so it doesnt apply, it does, if you throw out statistics you need to back them up. Why do you need to do this? Because 70% of people agree with me from data ive gathered from non descript locations, and im satisfied.

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What did you expect exactly? Yoshida putting out a Powerpoint about how their community team gather data, on what websites, what metric they find relevant, how many people were audited, etc... all in the middle of an interview session? If that's the only kind of data you are willing to accept, then I'm sorry but you will never get it.
So, simply ignore the "70%" and just go with "Yoshida is happy with the feedback they got", because that's all what matters in the end. The number itself is pretty irrelevant. Trying to argue against it will achieve absolutly nothing.

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Originally Posted by Mikki

I think the real problem is the fact that they have over 100 abilities already planned for Blue Mage.. compare that to the roughly 25 for current classes (and even that they want to trim down if I'm not mistaken, albiet for bloat reasons more so than balancing but still). Yes, they can only have a certain number of spells active at one time.... but in order to balance it properly, they have to consider ALL of the spells and how each can interact with one another. This is a nightmare for the dev team, I'd imagine. The only way I could see this working is if they restrict what spells can be used in raid content, which I think people would be pretty unhappy about and it would make it kind of messy because they want you to find the abilities on your own but you need to have certain ones in order to raid and it'd just be a pretty confusing scenario, honestly.

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They don't need to balance BLU's abilities around raiding cause you're not going to be able to do any current level content. They have said in an interview that it was difficult to expect BLU to be lvl 80 in Shadowbringers. And having OP abilities in content you can Unsync isn't really a problem. There are still the 24 man raids that you can't unsync but good luck getting a pre made party every time you want to do one one BLU

It's entirely possible they may change their minds on blu, but there is no world where they do it now. Maybe in time for 5.0 if they get a lot of real blowback about it or it ends up with use numbers similar to verminion, but that's pretty unlikely. They're not going to cave on content that nobody has really tried, and there was especially no chance that they go back on it from between when it was announced back in november to now.

Edit: Honestly, if they were going to kill the limited job concept and convert blue over I wouldn't expect it until around 5.3. Seems like about the amount of time it would take to get it balanced while still doing all the other balancing work they will inevitably need to do, such as buffing warriors again the very second they aren't mandatory.

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Originally Posted by Arkdra

It's entirely possible they may change their minds on blu, but there is no world where they do it now. Maybe in time for 5.0 if they get a lot of real blowback about it or it ends up with use numbers similar to verminion, but that's pretty unlikely. They're not going to cave on content that nobody has really tried, and there was especially no chance that they go back on it from between when it was announced back in november to now.

Edit: Honestly, if they were going to kill the limited job concept and convert blue over I wouldn't expect it until around 5.3. Seems like about the amount of time it would take to get it balanced while still doing all the other balancing work they will inevitably need to do, such as buffing warriors again the very second they aren't mandatory.

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If Limited jobs or BLU in general are not successful it probably wouldn't get reworked till 6.0