Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

With enough skill speed you can also ensure that your BB won't even hit at all in coil.

Too bad they changed the way foresight worked in V1 and 2.0.

It would of been handy to use during Titan's special move.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

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stacking SkSp shouldn't be required to be effective. even if you can get two BBs off in the span of a single SE, why would you? you'll be missing the SE debuff for another 4-5 seconds while you reapply it.

In my experimentation, I've noticed that forcing Storm's Path into my rotation helps quite a bit in the long run short term the benefits are negligible.

On Garuda I typically open with 2 or 3 BBs, throw in a SE, then rotate SE=>BB=>SE=>SP. watching hate meters and switching to SE=>BB rotation as needed to improve enmity generation. the only time you need IB is if you mess up dodging a slipstream. If i'm miles above everyone else in hate, i stop using BB and start going for SE=>SP rotation. it's not the most effecient in terms of raw damage, but it's awesome for mitigation.

too many WAR are using gear as a crutch to make up for what we are lacking. if research needs to be done, it's not on gear customization. gear is not intended to be a crutch. better gear makes you better. it wont' make you good

the biggest problem I think we're overlooking is we're pumping too much enmity out. I never lose hate. and about half way through any fight, i'm nowhere close to losing hate. so in reality i've been putting my research time into using BB less and using SP more. we're behind PLD mitigation by 10%. SP can help close that gap, as we only need ~80hp for every 1k healed. between bloodbath and SP we can easily make that up. but we have to figure out a consistent way to rotate SP while keeping SE up and managing enmity with BB. one Quality of Life change that would help with this greatly would be to move SP to combo from skull sunder rather than maim. thus increasing the efficiency of managing maim's CD and enmity generation, as skull sunder provides more enmity than maim does. I feel like i'm wasting maim whenever i move to SE=>SP=>SE=>BB rotation.

Storm's Path just doesn't heal for enough to make any appreciable difference. You can research it all you want but it doesn't have some kind of hidden feature that suddenly makes it solve the problem with the class. It's like trying to figure out how to empty a bath tub with a teaspoon; technically it's a valid method, but it doesn't become a realistic option no matter how much you "research" it. It's a 250 potency attack, which is the lowest of all the combo finishers, and it heals for a tenth of what an endgame mob deals with an auto-attack. It's so negligible that it self-evidently cannot make the kind of difference that's needed.

I'm starting to think Yoshi-P's comments on warriors are some kind of deliberate mindgame where he poised players of the class against each other in order to shut them up. He'd be aware that there's enough people white-knighting for Final Fantasy that accusing the players of not being good enough at the game means a lot of people will just take his word for it and start "researching" (I chuckle every time someone says that) instead of categorically discussing why the class is underpowered. Now we've got people wasting their time trying to make the class work by using abilities that are so obviously not good. Yesterday someone said he was researching (hnppffhaha) how Steel Cyclone might be the key to making warrior the very strong class that big boss Yoshi promises it is.

Now a large portion of the playerbase is wasting its time on completely futile research (hnngpfff) while another portion is engaged in Hiir/Sephirah-esque blemishing of every single discussion by swearing up and down that the class is performing fine and coming up with daily nonsense arguments based on nothing whatsoever. That interview certainly has managed to fool a lot of people into thinking it's their own fault that the class is underpowered and that somehow tens of thousands of players - many of them MMORPG veterans - have yet to figure out how to play a class in this mechanically primitive game after a month of heavy theorycrafting and collective experimentation in every corner of the game's content.

Well played, Yoshi-P. Well played.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Now a large portion of the playerbase is wasting its time on completely futile research (hnngpfff) while another portion is engaged in Hiir/Sephirah-esque blemishing of every single discussion by swearing up and down that the class is performing fine and coming up with daily nonsense arguments based on nothingwhatsoever. That interview certainly has managed to fool a lot of people into thinking it's their own fault that the class is underpowered and that somehow tens of thousands of players - many of them MMORPG veterans - have yet to figure out how to play a class in this mechanically primitive game after a month of heavy theorycrafting and collective experimentation in every corner of the game's content.

Well played, Yoshi-P. Well played.

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To be fair, a lot of the research is how to make WAR more like PLD. Although, like you said, it is mechanically primitive compared to other MMOs. After all, when I asked about parry, I was linked to a PLD block/parry table. Which is nice and all, but hypothetically, if DEX had a hidden modifier to parry for WARs, no one seems to have tested it and made their results public enough. Linking a PLD table doesn't help as a WAR. Not saying this is the case at all, but the point is to find the 'trick' to how WAR tanks, not how it tanks compared to PLD. This thread is becoming more like an iOS vs Android debate.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

Storm's Path just doesn't heal for enough to make any appreciable difference.

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If you use Storm's Path once every 3 combo cycles will end up healing one-third less than Bloodbath provides over the long term, and you can burst up Bloodbath by lining it up with Berserk and Internal Release. Not only is Storm's Path bad, it's *laughably* bad. It lives right alongside Steel Cyclone and Unchained on the "Wall of Uselessness".

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Originally Posted by C-croft

To be fair, a lot of the research is how to make WAR more like PLD. Although, like you said, it is mechanically primitive compared to other MMOs. After all, when I asked about parry, I was linked to a PLD block/parry table. Which is nice and all, but hypothetically, if DEX had a hidden modifier to parry for WARs, no one seems to have tested it and made their results public enough. Linking a PLD table doesn't help as a WAR. Not saying this is the case at all, but the point is to find the 'trick' to how WAR tanks, not how it tanks compared to PLD. This thread is becoming more like an iOS vs Android debate.

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But it's already obvious how the class tanks. People have already figured out how to play it. It's obvious from first glance. The problem is that the tools with which a warrior tanks are not strong enough. There's nothing to research, the tool is just too weak. There's no mystery here, people just believed a bullshitter.

Does it go Titan HM > Crystal Tower > Coil or Crystal Tower > Titan HM > Coil once Crystal Tower is released?

Titan > CT > Coil

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Originally Posted by Onisake

stacking SkSp shouldn't be required to be effective. even if you can get two BBs off in the span of a single SE, why would you? you'll be missing the SE debuff for another 4-5 seconds while you reapply it.

In my experimentation, I've noticed that forcing Storm's Path into my rotation helps quite a bit in the long run short term the benefits are negligible.

On Garuda I typically open with 2 or 3 BBs, throw in a SE, then rotate SE=>BB=>SE=>SP. watching hate meters and switching to SE=>BB rotation as needed to improve enmity generation. the only time you need IB is if you mess up dodging a slipstream. If i'm miles above everyone else in hate, i stop using BB and start going for SE=>SP rotation. it's not the most effecient in terms of raw damage, but it's awesome for mitigation.

too many WAR are using gear as a crutch to make up for what we are lacking. if research needs to be done, it's not on gear customization. gear is not intended to be a crutch. better gear makes you better. it wont' make you good

the biggest problem I think we're overlooking is we're pumping too much enmity out. I never lose hate. and about half way through any fight, i'm nowhere close to losing hate. so in reality i've been putting my research time into using BB less and using SP more. we're behind PLD mitigation by 10%. SP can help close that gap, as we only need ~80hp for every 1k healed. between bloodbath and SP we can easily make that up. but we have to figure out a consistent way to rotate SP while keeping SE up and managing enmity with BB. one Quality of Life change that would help with this greatly would be to move SP to combo from skull sunder rather than maim. thus increasing the efficiency of managing maim's CD and enmity generation, as skull sunder provides more enmity than maim does. I feel like i'm wasting maim whenever i move to SE=>SP=>SE=>BB rotation.

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Let me know when you get to hard content or DPS who aren't horrible. There is absolutely no way you will be able to hold aggro with SE => BB => SE => SP rotation. And why would you anyway? An extra 150 hps every 30 seconds? That's laughably pointless.

You aren't far enough to really understand, and that's fair enough, but BB => BB => SE => BB => BB is our best rotation as far as threat goes. Losing the SE buff for the Heavy Swing + Maim + Storm's Eye is no big deal. Losing literally ~1/4th of your enmity in order to fit in 120-200 self healing every 30 seconds is probably the worst tradeoff you could possibly make.

We're also behind PLD mitigation by FAR more than 10%. We're behind in required heals by ~9%, and that's before you count Rage of Halone or Block. Those together will put PLD WAYYY ahead of WAR. If you are getting enough out of Storm's Path to make up for even the heal difference I would be surprised. But if ~100-200 healing is 10% of the heals you receive every 30 seconds, then I think you might be outgearing the content.

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Originally Posted by Wangstrong

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which is why i said in the long run i'm finding SP to make a difference. while marginal, it's still something. agaisnt trash, it's not useful. but against bosses

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Originally Posted by Kitru

It lives right alongside Steel Cyclone and Unchained on the "Wall of Uselessness".

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I've found SC useful against trash. granted it's only marginally better than cross-class flash. it does free me up to take Mantra, Conv, Feather Foot, Internal Release, Provoke.

In a 5 minute fight you will get about 120 abilities off if you execute perfectly. which is about 40 combos. assuming no misses and you never miss a GCD. assuming a perfect 1/3 SP rotation you would get 13 off. however this is not realistic. because fracture, IB, etc. consuming GCD slots.

so really you'll get about 10 SPs. you gain 50% back from the combo of 250, which means a heal of 125 potency. assuming a 20% crit rate, those two combos generate 1375 potency in healing on average.

Now, I also lose 40 potency in attacks per combo. You could argue i'm also losing enmity in opportunity cost in addition to this damage, but I don't lose hate. so the extra enmity isn't needed. so it's not really 'lost.' so i'm losing a total of 400 potency in damage in opportunity cost. so i'm trading 400 potency in damage for 1375 potency in mitigation.

the obvious problem is, that 1375 healing from a war ends up being maybe 1.5 cure1 from a whm.

it is laughably bad, but it's still better than nothing. which is why again, a nice QoL would be to move SP to combo off of skull sunder. if we were to increase the potency to 270 instead of 250 it would be a nice, but not game-breaking buff.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Let me know when you get to hard content or DPS who aren't horrible. There is absolutely no way you will be able to hold aggro with SE => BB => SE => SP rotation. And why would you anyway? An extra 150 hps every 30 seconds? That's laughably pointless.

You aren't far enough to really understand, and that's fair enough, but BB => BB => SE => BB => BB is our best rotation as far as threat goes. Losing the SE buff for the Heavy Swing + Maim + Storm's Eye is no big deal. Losing literally ~1/4th of your enmity in order to fit in 120-200 self healing every 30 seconds is probably the worst tradeoff you could possibly make.

We're also behind PLD mitigation by FAR more than 10%. We're behind in required heals by ~9%, and that's before you count Rage of Halone or Block. Those together will put PLD WAYYY ahead of WAR. If you are getting enough out of Storm's Path to make up for even the heal difference I would be surprised. But if ~100-200 healing is 10% of the heals you receive every 30 seconds, then I think you might be outgearing the content.

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I've been holding hate off a Relic/full DL bard against Garuda. I do the same rotation in AK with a relic/DL BLM and the same bard. i have no DL accessories and i'm using a scream. if you're losing hate something else is wrong. you generate PLENTY of enmity to hold off of DD. and besides, i said if people are getting close I throw in a couple extra BBs.

Reality: I never lose hate.

Reality: i don't really need to maximize enmity gain, because it's wasted.

Conclusion: I might as well improve my mitigation, even if it's by a tiny amount, by using SP.

The only content I have not done yet is Titan and Coil. This is because i'm helping gear the rest of my FC who aren't ready for titan/coil yet. I could have completed Titan and been active in coil weeks ago. but i'm simply not in a hurry. I'm enjoying the game. I don't need to rush to complete content just for the sake of it.

So unless Titan and coil mobs are made of paper, and the DD get a massive enmity buff for some other reason, my assumptions do not change. you just plain do not need to keep enmity threshold as high as you possibly can. I've never been in a situation where i am always riding the threat line and about to lose hate. so how about instead, you let me know when you learn to control the enmity line instead of blindly pushing it as high as possible.

For further clarification:

The Garuda runs I did yesterday showed my two bards doing about 100-120k damage each. I did between 30-35k damage. I never lost hate with my current rotations.

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Originally Posted by hola

well, if we wear DD accessories，we could deal ok dmg, i just crit for 950 on my warrior with dd gear on garuda, without defiance of course.

so this class definitely need to be adjusted..

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Originally Posted by Kitru

A PLD with Sword Oath hits as hard as a WAR without Defiance. Even when they're going DPS mode, WAR doesn't deal more damage.

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Um even in sword oath with my current gear the highest crit I have ever landed was just over 450. My 3-tier fast-savage-rage combo nets me around 400 damage-ish with no crits. Im not sure how warrior damage is but I feel like it would be higher than that.

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Originally Posted by Onisake

The Garuda runs I did yesterday showed my two bards doing about 100-120k damage each. I did between 30-35k damage. I never lost hate with my current rotations.

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Well, keep enjoying Garuda I guess. If you're able to keep aggro while only using butcher's block once every 30 seconds, more power to you.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Well, keep enjoying Garuda I guess. If you're able to keep aggro while only using butcher's block once every 30 seconds, more power to you.

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Well, Keep enjoying being completely inefficient I guess. If you are able to be barely viable while using gear as a crutch, more power to you.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

Um even in sword oath with my current gear the highest crit I have ever landed was just over 450. My 3-tier fast-savage-rage combo nets me around 400 damage-ish with no crits. Im not sure how warrior damage is but I feel like it would be higher than that.

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Are you implying sword oath got you 450dmg crit on an auto atk hit? Cos you do know sword oath only affect auto atk potency right? That sounds like incredibly high dmg for auto atks from not-relic weapon, forget warriors, I doubt any DD job can beat that kind of dmg.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

Um even in sword oath with my current gear the highest crit I have ever landed was just over 450. My 3-tier fast-savage-rage combo nets me around 400 damage-ish with no crits. Im not sure how warrior damage is but I feel like it would be higher than that.

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Sword Oath adds an extra 50 potency attack with every auto-attack. Auto-attacks are designed to deal .8333 potency every GCD. Sword Oath actually increases the value based upon attack speed of the weapon: with a 2.2 weapon, Sword Oath adds an extra 57.4 potency for each GCD.

Sword Oath adds a lot more damage than you think. It's not "50% more damage from auto-attacks". It's a lot more.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Sword Oath adds an extra 50 potency attack with every auto-attack. Auto-attacks are designed to deal .8333 potency every GCD. Sword Oath actually increases the value based upon attack speed of the weapon: with a 2.2 weapon, Sword Oath adds an extra 57.4 potency for each GCD.

Sword Oath adds a lot more damage than you think. It's not "50% more damage from auto-attacks". It's a lot more.

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while that may be true I have never encountered a boss besides the demon wall that I could effectively tank in sword oath even then I still can lose threat against a decently geared bard if they go too crazy. The demon wall just does not do much damage that is the only reason it works. This is for end game content only though, prior to getting shield oath I always tanked in sword oath.

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Originally Posted by zsedc

Are you implying sword oath got you 450dmg crit on an auto atk hit? Cos you do know sword oath only affect auto atk potency right? That sounds like incredibly high dmg for auto atks from not-relic weapon, forget warriors, I doubt any DD job can beat that kind of dmg.

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Sorry, I meant sword oath with fight or flight up, that crit was on a sprits within at full life. A crit on an auto attack is lucky to get over 100 lol.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

while that may be true I have never encountered a boss besides the demon wall that I could effectively tank in sword oath even then I still can lose threat against a decently geared bard if they go too crazy. The demon wall just does not do much damage that is the only reason it works. This is for end game content only though, prior to getting shield oath I always tanked in sword oath.

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And I've never claimed that you're supposed to tank in Sword Oath, just like you shouldn't tank without Defiance on. The point was that a WAR outside of Defiance has no DPS advantage over a PLD in Sword Oath, just like a WAR in Defiance has no real DPS or enmity advantage over a PLD in Shield Oath.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

while that may be true I have never encountered a boss besides the demon wall that I could effectively tank in sword oath even then I still can lose threat against a decently geared bard if they go too crazy. The demon wall just does not do much damage that is the only reason it works. This is for end game content only though, prior to getting shield oath I always tanked in sword oath.

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Your gear is almost to the point where you can tank all of AK in sword oath. I can pretty much do AK outside of Defiance, but I usually turn it on for the last boss just to make my healer's life easier. Though this would be much easier with a premade party of 4. I would not try it in a solo duty finder queue.

Also, you should be putting out significantly more enmity in sword oath than shield oath.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

And I've never claimed that you're supposed to tank in Sword Oath, just like you shouldn't tank without Defiance on. The point was that a WAR outside of Defiance has no DPS advantage over a PLD in Sword Oath, just like a WAR in Defiance has no real DPS or enmity advantage over a PLD in Shield Oath.

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I do agree there, defiance really should carry some kind of defensive bonus other than just additional HP, honestly Defiance should be 25% bonus hp and 25% damage reduction, that would do a lot to put them closer to paladin in terms of mitigation.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

I do agree there, defiance really should carry some kind of defensive bonus other than just additional HP, honestly Defiance should be 25% bonus hp and 25% damage reduction, that would do a lot to put them closer to paladin in terms of mitigation.

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I'm *hoping* you meant to say 25% +healing there instead of 25% damage reduction. Shield Oath is only 20% DR.

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Originally Posted by Hachiko

Your gear is almost to the point where you can tank all of AK in sword oath.
snip...

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I can kind of see that but its not really worth it, the extra damage is minimal at best in comparison to true dps damage, its better to stay in shield oath and take the reduced damage to allow your healer to throw dots or cast a few spells in between healing. I have not played warrior so I am unfamiliar with it however my friend does play warrior and I understand that he had a much easier time than I did early game tanking...ie when we ran together to test hate generation I couldn't even out threat him single target now however is a much different story and I do believe that they need at least 1 damage mitigation cooldown like rampart or at the very least a large boost to the self heals.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

I do agree there, defiance really should carry some kind of defensive bonus other than just additional HP, honestly Defiance should be 25% bonus hp and 25% damage reduction, that would do a lot to put them closer to paladin in terms of mitigation.

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wrong, Warrior is not a tank who reduce dmg, but at least he should have some decent selfheal.

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Originally Posted by Rios-Drakoon

wrong, Warrior is not a tank who reduce dmg, but at least he should have some decent selfheal.

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They don't need all the damage reduction of a paladin but taking 25% less damage while in defiance would make there self heals more effective as the damage you take would be scaled back. More so than a 25% healing buff...possibly in some situations maybe the later would be more effective. The self heals would still need a buff but it wouldn't need to be as large of a buff.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I'm *hoping* you meant to say 25% +healing there instead of 25% damage reduction. Shield Oath is only 20% DR.

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25% damage reduction is what I meant because they have no other real defensive cool downs so it would never really be more than 25% which paladins can go way above 20% damage reduction even if it is only for a short time. Foresight is...meh it equates to like 2-5% damage reduction overall.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

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Just increasing the healing buff to 25% and making it on defiance by default would put them at equal effective HP as PLDs in Shield Oath. Honestly if they want to go the route of Higher HP but receives more healing they should make Thrill of Battle 90s and last 20s and also give it a 25% healing buff. It still wouldn't be as good as Rampart but it'd close the gap substantially. They could also make Wrath stacks grant a drain effect similar to Bloodbath, like say 10% damage dealt as HP per stack, max 50% at 5 stacks. Inner Beast could grant a shield equal to 300% of damage dealt, and also increases potency of the next cure spell received by 50%. Bloodbath grants a regen effect that restores 1% + X% of last damage recieved HP per tick. Just throwing random ideas out there.

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

25% damage reduction is what I meant because they have no other real defensive cool downs so it would never really be more than 25% which paladins can go way above 20% damage reduction even if it is only for a short time. Foresight is...meh it equates to like 2-5% damage reduction overall.

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Yeah... that's terrible logic. WAR should get its tank CDs improved to balance itself out with the PLD tanking CD suite. It should also get its +heal increased to 25%, through a combination of passive bonuses on Defiance and stack based via Wrath. Increased DR so that it's *higher* than PLD would just be insane. Hell, from an eHP standpoint, you're effectively asking for WAR to 167% of what a PLD gets, which is just *ridiculous*. Honestly, do you have *any* idea what you're suggesting actually has an effect upon or how anything actually relates to anything else?

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Yeah... that's terrible logic. WAR should get its tank CDs improved to balance itself out with the PLD tanking CD suite. It should also get its +heal increased to 25%, through a combination of passive bonuses on Defiance and stack based via Wrath. Increased DR so that it's *higher* than PLD would just be insane. Hell, from an eHP standpoint, you're effectively asking for WAR to 167% of what a PLD gets, which is just *ridiculous*. Honestly, do you have *any* idea what you're suggesting actually has an effect upon or how anything actually relates to anything else?

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I said I wasn't familiar with the way warrior works going in but purely looking at the numbers a 25% damage reduction would help a lot in terms of tanking with the current skill set of the warrior. How is 5% dr over shield oath equate to 167% of paladin mitigation? I am genuinely curious. Also do you have to be so callus towards someone who is only pitching an idea?

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Originally Posted by Hirosashi

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He's saying WARs effective HP would be 167% higher than PLDs base HP. Base HP*1.25/.75= Base HP*~1.67

Just a note, IB has an accepted bug listed for improper returns on healing. Hopefully that helps a little bit.

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Originally Posted by C-croft

Just a note, IB has an accepted bug listed for improper returns on healing. Hopefully that helps a little bit.

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The bug in question is when a monster's HP is lower than the HP Inner Beast would heal. For instance of a monster has only 300 HP left and you kill it with Inner Beast, you will only receive 300 HP for the Inner Beast. While annoying, it's not really relevant to endgame tanking.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

He's saying WARs effective HP would be 167% higher than PLDs base HP. Base HP*1.25/.75= Base HP*~1.67

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Ah I see I miss read that part, That does make too large of a difference in that case.

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Originally Posted by CurlyBruce

The bug in question is when a monster's HP is lower than the HP Inner Beast would heal. For instance of a monster has only 300 HP left and you kill it with Inner Beast, you will only receive 300 HP for the Inner Beast. While annoying, it's not really relevant to endgame tanking.

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I noted that they were saying that it would also happen in the middle of the fight as well as the end.

PS forum limit hit.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

(snip) STR recommendation for 15% parry damage mitigation.

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Hm, where did you get that number? My parry, according to combat log, shaves 23% off the damage of each hit. I am nowhere anywhere near 405 strength.

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Originally Posted by Xariann

Hm, where did you get that number? My parry, according to combat log, shaves 23% off the damage of each hit. I am nowhere anywhere near 405 strength.

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You are correct, and I made a mistake there confusing total mitigation averages vs actual activation averages. you get 20-25%(at 405str) which averages out to 15% of total incoming damage parried away during the course of a fight, with current stat allotments. The goal in a lot of cases is to get this higher.

405 STR is for 25% mitigation, not 15%. You should really get your fact straight before acting like you're a god above us all Lhun.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

405 STR is for 25% mitigation, not 15%. You should really get your fact straight before acting like you're a god above us all Lhun.

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He's a secret agent of the PLD collective, sent to plant misinformation in WAR threads O.o

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Originally Posted by Tronic

He's a secret agent of the PLD collective, sent to plant misinformation in WAR threads O.o

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Oh dear.

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405 STR is for 25% mitigation, not 15%. You should really get your fact straight before acting like you're a god above us all Lhun.

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First, I've never felt arrogant or "a better player" then anyone. I just seem to be more willing to try unconventional techniques then some of the naysayers we've been getting, and the Japanese players really don't see the imbalance as harshly as NA does, to the point of not inviting them to groups. I'm just a player who likes to master every game I play. I have, however, been playing this game a lot longer you, but, I am not a "god", far from it. We'll see how things turn out in a year from now.

I've spent some time reviewing the data from the myriad of sites we have, and they point to 15% OVERALL mitigation average at 405 STR, when you look at the rate of parry during a fight. I made an error during that post due to confusing the total overall average mitigation with the amount per parry, while also realizing I see near 21% mitigation on my parries. My apologies.

I don't mean to lead anyone astray, I just think the "current state of warrior" isn't as bad as people think it is.

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I don't mean to lead anyone astray, I just think the "current state of warrior" isn't as bad as people think it is.

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I'd say most people that are disapointed with WAR while knowing what they are talking about aren't saying that the WAR is bad but rather weaker than PLD.
The problem we have right now as a WAR isn't that we can't clear stuff, we can, it requires more gear than a PLD but we can. The problem is "why would you take a WAR in your party when you can take a PLD ?"

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

I'd say most people that are disapointed with WAR while knowing what they are talking about aren't saying that the WAR is bad but rather weaker than PLD.
The problem we have right now as a WAR isn't that we can't clear stuff, we can, it requires more gear than a PLD but we can. The problem is "why would you take a WAR in your party when you can take a PLD ?"

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Because there are some things they do better than PLD. People keep saying it's a myth WAR does more dmg than PLD, yet there are parses out there showing WARs dealing equal if not more dmg than actual DPS classes, you just have to change your gear and playstyle. They are more versatile, for encounters you only need 1 tank for they can DPS and pick up the boss if the PLD dies, much easier than any other DPS could. I'm not saying it's impossible to hold AoE threat as a PLD, far from it, but it's definitely easier for a WAR. Just like it's not impossible for a WAR to maintank, it's just easier for a PLD.