I'm bored when I heal because I need more complex DPS rotations

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

I’d rather have more interesting spells for healing and support on healers’ toolkit than complex dps rotations.

That is my feedback

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Honestly me too. The problem with this is that in order to make a toolkit interesting, the content itself has to necessitate it's use. A lot of the healing and support skills involved in a healer kit tend not to be necessary unless doing optimized runs for damage, that's just the way that fights are designed to keep them accessible. In order to make this happen they would need to make midcore content harder to heal, and when that used to be the case people just wouldn't play healer.

Ultimately they made fights easier to heal so that more people would play healer since that's always been a problem. The mentality of player that makes a good healer is rare in the gamer demographic, it's been the problem with support roles across most games for ages.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.

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Or the DF healers aren't actually paying attention to the screen for various reasons (Boredom, used to warriors that heal themselves and the group, used to PLDs that heal themselves, used to over eager DNCs that heal the group etcetcetc)

But yes, I'm sure it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal. I can only assume this is verified from the source right? :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.

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Yay, punish the class for the bad behavior of the troublemakers. That's totally not infuriating for those of us who do a good job or anything.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.

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you could literally take away every single dps button from healers and these people still would not be able to heal, it's a meaningless thing to say. these aren't broil/glare gods with 100% uptime, these are players who simply lack any sort of game sense to effectively play any job. in fact i'd say they choose healer solely because they get told how easy and lacking in responsibilities it is. if you didn't want to try, why wouldn't you pick a healer? for a majority of content now you aren't required at all and all you have to do is show up and press a single button over and over, and occasionally hit a 2nd every 30s if you're feeling like you want to try hard.

i stopped doing roulettes entirely because outside of healers being even more boring in casual content than they are in savage/ult, you get two types of tanks - the tanks that don't need you to heal at all and the tanks that literally refuse to press a single mitigation button at all because they believe they are a DPS job. this happens in savage too btw, all the time you get tanks that do not use any mits for TBs or other mechs because "I'M IN THE MIDDLE OF MY BURST!"
so i think the logical and rational thing to do is to reduce tanks to 1 spam button and a DoT, plus a varying oGCD/GCD attack they can hit on a cooldown... or we can stop designing jobs around people who will fail to do their duties no matter what. clearly that design seems to extend to the tanks, because tanks like GNB and DRK haven't had their bursts gutted to compensate for the fact that a large amount of their players are unga bunga monkeys who just think they're big manly men there to do "big d*k deeps" and not do anything a tank should actually be doing (like mitigating damage!)

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.

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I have notice this too!
- Co-healers who never use any heals cds,never ress, never Esuna.
- I have died to Eulogia's Eudaimon Eorzea, as DPS with full hp/zero hit prev taken - due lack of healing..
(this has only happened once..but still).

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

- Co-healers who never use any heals cds,never ress, never Esuna.

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And again I ask. If healing was actually engaging, enjoyable and above all else consistently required even in casual endgame content do you feel that perhaps these people would actually be more inclined to pay attention to their FFXIV window rather than whatever TikTok/netflix is showing on the second screen?

*Edit* Also:

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I have died to Eulogia's Eudaimon Eorzea, as DPS with full hp/zero hit prev taken - due lack of healing..

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This is why I endlessly preach about the importance of saving a shadowplay recording or uploading a log when you die so that you can better understand what actually happened. You weren't at full HP, and you had a 25% vulnerability stack on you. So no, that's not what happened.

You took a vuln stack at 6:08 which was still on when you ate a ~52k hit from Eudaimon Eorzea which just about overkilled you. Without that Vuln you would have taken ~40k and lived just fine.

Curing Waltz was off cooldown and would have been enough to save you (Last used at 5:21). Shield Samba and Second Wind were both on cooldown unfortunately (I'd argue that both were kind of wasted given the big hit that was coming up but that's getting unfairly nitpicky and min-maxy for a modern 24 man).

As far as the lack of healing thing goes, you had Asylum, Medica II and a PI tick from the WHM, Lilybell had been used in the run up to the Eudaimon hit and the Sadge did a few E-Prognoses.

In the 10 seconds before you died, you received a rough total of 40k's worth of healing and the final hit overkilled you by 182 hp.

So yeah.

If you'd not eaten the 25% vuln you'd have lived just fine.
If you'd eaten pretty much any food with vit or even chugged a Healing pot you'd have scraped through.
If you'd have saved Samba for the upcoming hit you'd have been fine.
If you'd have remembered to hit curing waltz you'd have been fine.

You were the only one that died.

Are you sure it was a lack of healing?

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Are you sure it was a lack of healing?

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Imagine if you had something like a bi-weekly or monthly web show of some sort where you spent 40 minutes debunking claims of people blaming the healers for not healing because they didn't see a Cure II casting. Not that that's any rational amount of work to request of someone, but I wonder if maybe that would convince at least a few people that the majority of healers aren't the pathetic toddlers who can't fit the square block in the square hole that they think they are.

While I haven't seen a lot of healers that refuse to heal, I have seen a lot of healers that refuse to hardcast a single res. I've seen parties wipe in extremes/savage because the healer that's alive absolutely refuses to cast a res at all unless Swiftcast is up, so their cohealer stays dead until the next major mechanic while the healer that's alive just flings rocks, then the debuffs aren't given out properly and we wipe.

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Originally Posted by RinaB

I've heard this complaint forever and I can't speak for people's personal groups or statics but in duty finder it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal so I wouldn't expect much from the devs.

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Let’s remove all AoE attacks from DPSes too since apparently we got plenty of chronic single targeting DPSes.

Let’s move all tank’s mitigative cooldowns into traits so they don’t need to press them since apparently we got blue dpses who thinks they are ‘emergencies’ rather than necessity.

SE says people would like it, I’m sure of it! /s

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

......

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I dont think it's allowed to link logs and "badtalk" players on forums.
(player names can be seen on the logs)


You may not have notice this but, the vul % changes based on boss's ability : the ability which i died on had 13% not 25% ( I had 1 stack).
Now you know.

The spirit of the post is true regardless

Shield healers aren’t there to baby you with succor and adlo when you miss mechanics, I’ll heal you if I have spare oGCD’s but I’m not an adlo bot so you can go chasing AOE’s

If you miss a mechanic get a vuln stack and then a raidwide comes out you should pretty much expect to die, that’s exactly the type of healing square has cultivated by making healing such a joke that most people genuinely ignore it

This is made worse by the fact that there is no punishment for the “medica 2 is the answer to every question” playstyle, if you have a vuln stack and a raidwide is coming and my co healer is at 15* my HPS (not uncommon) I’m just gonna assume they will heal you if not they are probably foaming at the mouth for the chance to hard raise you do either way it’s not really my problem

This is exactly the type of apathy you should expect from the way healers are designed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Shield healers aren’t there to baby you with succor and adlo when you miss mechanics, I’ll heal you if I have spare oGCD’s but I’m not an adlo bot so you can go chasing AOE’s

If you miss a mechanic get a vuln stack and then a raidwide comes out you should pretty much expect to die, that’s exactly the type of healing square has cultivated by making healing such a joke that most people genuinely ignore it

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There is actually another side to this argument. In casual content, there is a chance that DF will set the party with 2 WHMs. If someone gets a vuln before a big raidwide and neither WHM have Temperance available, who is the one to blame in that scenario?

I think it's good to always have some self-accountability. It's usually better to not pin the blame on others when there were things you could've done to not die.

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Originally Posted by Aravell

There is actually another side to this argument. In casual content, there is a chance that DF will set the party with 2 WHMs. If someone gets a vuln before a big raidwide and neither WHM have Temperance available, who is the one to blame in that scenario?

I think it's good to always have some self-accountability. It's usually better to not pin the blame on others when there were things you could've done to not die.

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The alliance queue really needs a modern shakeup, the queues should backfill so you aren’t getting 5 withdraws in a row with 23/24 saying yes then starting again (especially on the rarer raids where it’s really common that if someone withdraws the roulette will then change tact and dump off the players into something else making you wait even longer)

They should also attempt to evenly divide the players they do have, like if you go in and have 2 SCH, 2 AST and 2 WHM you shouldn’t end up in a situation where all three end up in a party with the other one of themselves, the same could be said for one party having 5 melees and the other having 5 dancers

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

You may not have notice this but, the vul % changes based on boss's ability : the ability which i died on had 13% not 25% ( I had 1 stack).
Now you know.

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Yes, and the four hits that came before that killing blow, were at +25%, making it harder to keep your HP at a stable 'you will live through this' level. Now you know /s

Being snarky aside, this might be the first time I've seen someone with a raiding resume as illustrious as Sebazy's get told 'you don't know how to read logs, here's a lesson', quite unexpected

Point of Sebazy's post, even if it is a bit blunt in how it's worded, is there: you said you took no healing in the leadup to the final hit, you got like 150% your healthbar in healing. Just, it turns out you needed 155% of your healthbar or so, to survive, thanks to the +25% fun sticker you picked up from somewhere. But you went straight for 'the healers didn't heal', and I'd have thought that as a healer main yourself you'd know better


In unrelated news, I had a Brandihild moment of inspiration earlier re: destroying the pure/barrier split

First time i seen more mature replay here, i appreciate it.

I don't like fflogs beeing posted on forums -
Because you can actually see the names of the other players.
- which felt was both unnecessary and disrespectful..

When i wrote my first reply.. i didn't have those players in mind at all...
The one who was bringing them up - was Sebazy after digging them up from fflogs :P
(That one was more recent, which is why i mention it)

Anyway
i just notice a trend with ffxiv healers in PF..
That's all.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

First time i seen more mature replay here, i appreciate it.

I don't like fflogs beeing posted on forums -
Because you can actually see the names of the other players.
- which felt was both unnecessary and disrespectful..

When i wrote my first reply.. i didn't have those players in mind at all...
The one who was bringing them up - was Sebazy after digging them up from fflogs :P
(That one was more recent, which is why i mention it)

Anyway
i just notice a trend with ffxiv healers in PF..
That's all.

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Your character name is literally visible on forums, regardless of fflogs.

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Originally Posted by Rehayem

Your character name is literally visible on forums, regardless of fflogs.

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and? It dosnt matter to me if ppl know my character name..

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I dont think it's allowed to link logs and "badtalk" players on forums.
(player names can be seen on the logs)


You may not have notice this but, the vul % changes based on boss's ability : the ability which i died on had 13% not 25% ( I had 1 stack).
Now you know.

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It's not bad talk, it's clarification on a common sentiment which I believe is demonstrably incorrect, thus here we are.

I'm not calling you (or anyone else for that matter) out for being bad or such, I'm simply highlighting what's what and the reality behind what I suspect drives a very significant percentage of these kind of accusations against healers. So many people jump to instantly saying 'You never healed me!' as a defence mechanism rather than looking back and analysing what actually happened and seeing if there is a way to prevent it in the future which is not only a great way to improve as a player, but it's a wildly valuable life skill as well. Blame shouldn't be a central part of this, if there's a way to resolve an potential issue, why not make that adjustment?

It could absolutely be argued that those healers could have done more to save you, just as you could have done more to save yourself. But it's a 24 man, if you're not try harding yourself, it's not really fair to expect others to go above and beyond either. That's fair right?

And ya, Bole (10/10 appropriate name for the topic btw ;) ) has the raid mitigation side covered, so no need for me to expand on that.

So yeah in closing, it's less of a trend of healers not healing and more a trend of people being quick to jump the gun and blame the healer even if it wasn't actually the healer's fault as demonstrated by your example. I've seen it in literal world prog back in FCOB, I've seen it in DF but in an even more comical situation.. We've all been there.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

The alliance queue really needs a modern shakeup, the queues should backfill so you aren’t getting 5 withdraws in a row with 23/24 saying yes then starting again (especially on the rarer raids where it’s really common that if someone withdraws the roulette will then change tact and dump off the players into something else making you wait even longer)

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Absolutely. Even on a busy server at decent hours, getting dumped out of the queue occasionally causes pretty big delays, it sucks if it happens repeatedly.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

First time i seen more mature replay here, i appreciate it.

I don't like fflogs beeing posted on forums -
Because you can actually see the names of the other players.
- which felt was both unnecessary and disrespectful..

When i wrote my first reply.. i didn't have those players in mind at all...
The one who was bringing them up - was Sebazy after digging them up from fflogs :P
(That one was more recent, which is why i mention it)

Anyway
i just notice a trend with ffxiv healers in PF..
That's all.

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I think Sebazy's answer was quite mature.

You made a false claim and they brought proof of that claim being wrong and told you what really happened.

If anything they are being more respectful than you with other players, considering he's defending that they did their job properly, and, unless you purposely click on the cross of your name in the menu of fflogs, you will hardly see any data outside from yours in that log.

I think people should be more critical with themselves. Firstly because a lot of players can't differentiate not healing from efficient healing and secondly because this mentality of "I died therefore is healer's fault" is one of the reasons behind abyssos's green river in pf, where a lot of healers were getting the blame from dps who used mits who knows where and thought of the self heals as funny buttons to not press.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

I dont think it's allowed to link logs and "badtalk" players on forums.
(player names can be seen on the logs)

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Wrong guy blaming right guys for his mistakes gets called out by good guys using righteous methods and facts then calls it "bad talk" simply because it completely counters his wrong behaviors and philosophies with no possible rebuttals, meaning he's the one who must change.

Living up to your ethos, I can see.

Back on the other topic, if doing DPS as healers was more fun, I think there would be much less need for healers wanting more to heal. In fact, I wonder if replacing some OGCD heals and buttons with DPS ones would make healing more difficult and enjoyable by forcing GCD heals more often and having to properly balance between heals and DPS.

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Originally Posted by Zeastria

Anyway
i just notice a trend with ffxiv healers in PF..
That's all.

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But is it a trend, though? The point of what’s being discussed is that people are quick to rid themselves of all responsibility of a KO by placing the entirety of that responsibility on the healer, if it seems like they weren’t healed in time even when there was healing efforts being made for them. So how much of this trend is actual healers not healing and how much of it is a false perception that a KO was someone else’s fault?

Also, can I just say what a double standard it is that we can call out a healer for not healing hard enough, but if you call out a DPS for not doing their rotation correctly, that’s toxic?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

But is it a trend, though? The point of what’s being discussed is that people are quick to rid themselves of all responsibility of a KO by placing the entirety of that responsibility on the healer, if it seems like they weren’t healed in time even when there was healing efforts being made for them. So how much of this trend is actual healers not healing and how much of it is a false perception that a KO was someone else’s fault?

Also, can I just say what a double standard it is that we can call out a healer for not healing hard enough, but if you call out a DPS for not doing their rotation correctly, that’s toxic?

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I mean, calling out a tank for not mitigating is also a big no-no. But it's totally fine to call out a healer for not healing when everyone is already full HP but some people die to minor overkill because the tank/DPS didn't press their 10% button.

The healer blame trend is not even unique to FF14 either. I was even nagged by a DPS person who was buddies with a Warrior tank in Warcraft during the Legion expansion.

I was playing a Shaman at the time. Nobody died in the 5 man dungeon either since I was using Healing Stream Totem, Riptide HoTs on the tank with Healing Rain for efficient AoE heals. They likely judged my ability to heal based on how much light "Jesus beams" I threw out (Chain Heal) and saw the Lava Burst animations instead. Apparently that was proof of me being "caught" pwning the enemies. Wrath also had Chain Heal spam for Shamans, but some players still didn't get the memo that Healing Stream Totem got buffed. If you looked at the Warrior tank's data though with those supposed parsers that are allowed in WoW, they dumped so much rage into DPSing with Revenge hits instead of mitigating with Shield Block and Ignore Pain >.> They also would have seen the Healing Stream Totem a mile away if they knew how to use the parsers to view heals too ... Even then, nobody died and still they complain ...

Why is there such an obsession with micromanaging how healers play, even by people who don’t play healer?

Healer player: Can I have more DPS actions?
Someone, Inevitably: If you want to DPS then you should play a DPS job. Healers are supposed to HEAL!

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why is there such an obsession with micromanaging how healers play, even by people who don’t play healer?

Healer player: Can I have more DPS actions?
Someone, Inevitably: If you want to DPS then you should play a DPS job. Healers are supposed to HEAL!

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Which is funny cause if a healer casts a heal in most dungeons they'll get cursed out. Like how hard is it for people to understand, most of our kit is both not needed and offensive to use, so either give us skills for what you've set us up to be doing or change the same so we can use the stuff you've given us without getting kicked from party.

Imagine a world where 90% of mobs were immune to physical damage and dragoons were like, "well, can I have some more magic attacks or could you make more mobs take physical damage" and the response from players being THEN JUST PLAY BLACK MAGE!

That's actually more reasonable cause it wouldn't stop queues from popping. Telling everyone to give up on healer...well...gl with that.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why is there such an obsession with micromanaging how healers play, even by people who don’t play healer?

Healer player: Can I have more DPS actions?
Someone, Inevitably: If you want to DPS then you should play a DPS job. Healers are supposed to HEAL!

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Sadly the only way for Healers to have more DPS actions is to play Warrior.

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Originally Posted by Mithron

Back on the other topic, if doing DPS as healers was more fun, I think there would be much less need for healers wanting more to heal. In fact, I wonder if replacing some OGCD heals and buttons with DPS ones would make healing more difficult and enjoyable by forcing GCD heals more often and having to properly balance between heals and DPS.

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You got to the core of the issue with healers, the risk vs reward of healing isn't there, what to me makes healer fun (beyond random DPS rotation varity) is the trying to fit in as much damage as possible while keeping the party alive, when you can do both at the same time it makes the entire role feel boring.

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Originally Posted by Lady_Silvermoon

Which is funny cause if a healer casts a heal in most dungeons they'll get cursed out. Like how hard is it for people to understand, most of our kit is both not needed and offensive to use, so either give us skills for what you've set us up to be doing or change the same so we can use the stuff you've given us without getting kicked from party.

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I feel like it's the same arguement for why Paladin shouldn't be spamming clemency tbh, but those said healers would get mad at a new PLD for using it while using healing that isn't needed. In reality as a PLD i feel insulted that I get gcd healed when I have more then enough self sustain, for pretty similar reasons why a healer would get frustrated at a PLD for spamming that ability

Although most people (me included) usually just get on with the duty, if someone wants to waste time healing only or something more power to them I guess? It's likely more faster getting through the duty them making a fuss over someone not playing optimally lol.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Or the DF healers aren't actually paying attention to the screen for various reasons (Boredom, used to warriors that heal themselves and the group, used to PLDs that heal themselves, used to over eager DNCs that heal the group etcetcetc)

But yes, I'm sure it's an ongoing problem of healers simply refusing to heal. I can only assume this is verified from the source right? :rolleyes:

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This. I swear the last tank's death I directly caused was because I almost fell asleep :/

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Why is there such an obsession with micromanaging how healers play, even by people who don’t play healer?

Healer player: Can I have more DPS actions?
Someone, Inevitably: If you want to DPS then you should play a DPS job. Healers are supposed to HEAL!

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because the same people who are obsessed with their idyllic perfect idea of the holy trinity meaning that healers spam Cure Cure Cure for their gameplay loop and having to work 24/7 to keep everyone alive with healing spells also simultaneously hate the idea of other players being able to affect their gameplay in a massively multiplayer online rpg like this and rage whenever they die
it's easier if you don't think about it too much, lol

64 pages is a lot. Seems like there is a consensus that healer rotations need some adjusting. Hopefully in the upcoming media tour we hear about this-- I mean there's multiple healers so surely they can experiment with at least one of them and see if the game collapses due to one healer having a tiny more interesting dps rotation.

Bc doesn't Yoshi P want consensus...

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

64 pages is a lot. Seems like there is a consensus that healer rotations need some adjusting. Hopefully in the upcoming media tour we hear about this-- I mean there's multiple healers so surely they can experiment with at least one of them and see if the game collapses due to one healer having a tiny more interesting dps rotation.

Bc doesn't Yoshi P want consensus...

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I have an older one of 30 pages as well, but sub forums don't get as much traction as General does.

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

64 pages is a lot. Seems like there is a consensus that healer rotations need some adjusting. Hopefully in the upcoming media tour we hear about this-- I mean there's multiple healers so surely they can experiment with at least one of them and see if the game collapses due to one healer having a tiny more interesting dps rotation.

Bc doesn't Yoshi P want consensus...

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I mean we also have a thread about essentially the same topic, with the same ideas floating around going for over 200 pages:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-play-Ultimate

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Originally Posted by Sani2341

I mean we also have a thread about essentially the same topic, with the same ideas floating around going for over 200 pages:
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-play-Ultimate

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343 likes as well. I wonder how many likes are needed before it is consensus.

My point just being, people have been talking about this all patch cycle with a lot of agreement occurring but the dev team hasn't meaningfully commented. If there's no update for 7.0 then imo Yoshi P needs to clarify what exactly it takes to reach consensus, assuming that it's a tangible thing and not a PR excuse.

My feedback would be to move healers away from shield / not shield and into offensive heal and support heal. In general healer's damage might increase, but it would also be more likely to be considered in content for "are your team members doing enough?". There are a few primary reasons why I think spending too much time on healers should just heal is going to be nigh impossible:

1) We have linear gear growth (gear go BRR healing power goes up, defensive abilities go up, time to death goes down, all leading to less heals needed on a multi-variable problem)
2) You'll have to nerf tanks and potentially other jobs sustain as well (No one likes nerfs lol)
3) You'll have to nerf healing power and or also potentially redesign mechanics to demand more (oGCD heals can save the day on their own, if you want a healer to be healing their little healer hearts out you can't solve problems in one button for even slightly extended periods of time)
4) If you make too high of a demand you essentially create a very large space of failure and a narrow window of success. If healing demands increase a lot such that healers HAVE to heal all the time, that means if you flub your party dies. A lot of additional stress will be introduced by that, and probably a lot of "welp lets abandon this duty, the healer sucks and so we're never going to win". Even tanks can kind of suck and still win lol.

Therefore:

Healing as a concept is diametrically opposed to everyone and anyone doing well, the better your team is the less important you and your primary goal will be. While if you make healing too important such that healing HAS to be done, and it is one of those things that will be on a time line compounding issues if you messed up trying to catch back up the stream-- failure will be a lot easier and it'll primarily be one person's fault.

Tank uses defensive cooldowns well? Less heals.
Everyone deals great damage? Less heals.
Everyone performs mechanics? Less heals.
SE doesn't make content hard enough that people can regularly fail it (unlikely, except for new savage / ultimate)? Less heals.
You know your job very well and so you use the most optimum skills for the situation? Guess what, less heals.
You're well geared? You heal more, less heals.
Everyone else is well geared? They take less damage, less heals.

Practically everything in the game points to the purpose of heals being less valuable if anyone is doing the right thing. The best time for healers being a healer in normal content is when you're with a pack of dodos lol. If you somehow address those issues, you will be on the other side where you will approach "healer healed tank too late, incoming damage in 2 minutes will overcome the cast time of healer- we failed the mission, next time don't wait 2 seconds to heal me".

Therefore, alternatively, rather than changing many jobs, many mechanics, many pieces of gear, and whole game wide structures... in a huge spider web that you probably wont even solve anyways... How about we just make healers more engaging without having to fully address that issue (by giving healers OTHER engagement on top of healing).

So- to provide two types of styles, engaging more people who want to be on the healer role. You add offensive and 'defensive' (support) healers. Support healers will be essentially the support class, their skills will result in damage, but from making the dreamwork via teamwork.

Sage and Scholar would be offensive healers, and as a lazy example many of the mechanics that used to exist on Scholar would be brought back. Which includes more offensive attack spells and a bit more interaction from the fairy. Sage would have even more focus on Kardia type mechanics, AoE Kardia! Weee, lol. As a general mantra while healers would have to switch targets, they should also frequently have an enemy in their sights. There will need to be skills that help them balance resources and needs around that idea (like Scholars would save big heals and for smaller needs would tell the fairy that she was a good little tinkerbell and then eviscerate the enemy). Many skills that were pure heal might become mix and or be blended into existing heal spells while new offensive mechanics are added (which is to say button bloat isn't the goal). In an expansion setting you'd expect half your skills at worst to be offensive related (though they may have combat elements in them as well).

For both the above and below healer concepts may introduce capped interactive skills. An issue Astrologian had when they could buff an entire party was 5% on 8 was worht more than on 4, and on top of that depending on what job and who you were with it could be even more inconsistent. Potentially can avoid that by saying "10% extra damage up to 500 potency". "Deals 100 potency per attack up to 500". Etc. Etc.

I think in my dark healer thread I had suggested hemorrhaging spine (curse themed healer lol) which increased damage by a fixed potency from the rear and ranged up to a fixed value. One potential benefit being given the fixed value, if you make the buffs last a fair amount they can 'tend' to be full value as long as even a few people are trying.

Some other ideas brought up for that offensive healer were monster curse (heals) where you would prevent damage coming from the target (not to supplant normal heals, just a supplement), Damage Pets, Auras with interactions (so they don't just sit on your bar), RoA / DoA (regen / damage on action debuff mechanics, kardia vaguely is like the idea), offensive spell that can be used on allies as a heal, and Gray Health which was simply a way to layer in new healing spells (if you 'prepped' a player you could more effectively return their health). https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/392280

White Mage and Astrologian then become support healers. For example with Astrologian we go a bit back into unique and powerful cards (with a generic undertone of buffing, just incase). These jobs will target the enemy less often, even if they did interact with the enemy it will most likely not require targeting the enemy to do so. These jobs target their allies, a lot.

You might see Enstone early on for CNJ that increases the damage of an ally. Stoneskin may be brought back where when it breaks within X seconds it deals extra damage, otherwise dealing damage when broken / expired (gives you a skilled play opportunity but a skill floor as well).

Both jobs might see some healing spells condense, some removed (with thought put into ensuring ultimate isn't impossible due to a change in healing potential), and then new spells added based on the job's enemy or ally basis. All jobs will be able to contribute damage, how they do it would be different. Shields might still have some bias but it's less of a concern now, as there is a new one lol.

For jobs that are ally oriented their skills will have an exception for solo play. For example Blue Mage's basic instinct had code written to work when players are incapacitated / alone. If a spell needs a bonus effect to not nerf the job when alone (so you're not a WHM thinking "I wish I was a SGE, cause I have no one to buff"). While normally playing all the cards on yourself or your chocobo, in a party, would be bad, there might be a passive that appears that helps with that when alone.. "The house always wins" - grants self maximum benefit for cards used. Or something.

A Healer's job in a good party mostly just ends up being to spam their one attack, and some basic sustain for arena wides.

Also unironically, for SGE the better the party is the harder time they will have as their main source for MP regen is using their Addersgalls to heal... And if nobody's taking damage, you'd need to spend GCDs to overheal to get MP.


One thing that could be done is adding in more attack options to use the Job resources...
An attack (Seraph Strike) that spends Lilies for WHM, something better than Energy Drain for SCH... An attack that uses Addersgall for SGE... AST is supposed to be getting a rework so I dunno about it.

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Originally Posted by CaptainLagbeard

A Healer's job in a good party mostly just ends up being to spam their one attack, and some basic sustain for arena wides.

Also unironically, for SGE the better the party is the harder time they will have as their main source for MP regen is using their Addersgalls to heal... And if nobody's taking damage, you'd need to spend GCDs to overheal to get MP.


One thing that could be done is adding in more attack options to use the Job resources...
An attack (Seraph Strike) that spends Lilies for WHM, something better than Energy Drain for SCH... An attack that uses Addersgall for SGE... AST is supposed to be getting a rework so I dunno about it.

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Which is exactly why despite all the complaining people do energy drain is still somehow the better designed system

Who the hell thought that a system that makes you overheal yourself with druachole to get mana was a well designed system, the least they could have done is if the addersgall is going to overcap it just passively gives you 700 mp but it’s not like SGE needs to be made any easier

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Originally Posted by Bole

We don't want our DPS rotations to be just pressing 1 button ad nauseam. How the developers achieve that is up to them. I personally don't care whether it is to reduce downtime between healing or whether they give us a few more buttons to press in downtime. Stormblood SCH was in a much better state DPS wise - if some of those elements came back, it would reduce the monotony (and the point is that they've already achieved this before).

I wouldn't mind losing some of my healing buttons to make space for the DPS buttons. A lot of these buttons don't have meaningful differences, and I am okay with using more GCD heals to keep up with the damage.

Realistically, they'll never manage to increase healing requirements to make current healers useful in anything but the hardest content. This is why I a slightly more interesting DPS rotation is a better solution.

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Name me one job that just pushes one button. Name me one. Sure as hell aren't any I've played. Not one job just hits one button. You're lying and exaggerating.

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Originally Posted by Nabril

Name me one job that just pushes one button. Name me one. Sure as hell aren't any I've played. Not one job just hits one button. You're lying and exaggerating.

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Well, yea. You're right. Healers don't just press one button. We have a DoT as well, so that's two buttons.

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Originally Posted by Teno

Wrong game, in this one healers dps and you will accept it. So more dps interactions pls, pvp sage is an example of what it should be.

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Indeed. Healers need Enochian. They need to maintain that by DPSing and heal carefully so that they the timer on Enochian doesn't expire. If it does, they need to wait out the cool down before they can begin DPSing again.

THAT would add excitement to healing! If you want to DPS, struggle! And if anyone thinks this is too hard- we Black Mages know how to manage Enochian. It's not hard. Healers can do it.

Here we go again… lmao