We lost 70% of our player base half a year in

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

This brings to mind Josh Strife Hayes' "Worst MMO Ever?" series where he digs up every MMO he can find listed on Steam. And frequently discovers there's less than 10 players on line with him.

Someone could cherry pick through Steam to come up with just the right MMOs to prove their point depending on most recent content release date.

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In terms of percentage losses, perhaps. But, I think anyone here would point out the fragility of small sample sizes if they were looking at a fall from 100 to 20 over the past month.

30k+ players, on the other hand, is far past the point of running into issues inherent to low sample size, and would only be 'tainted' if there were something about which button one clicks to access the game (double-clicking from Steam or just clicking, waiting, inputting one's password, and clicking again on the official launcher) that would cause players to play less between patches than most people.

SE is quite aware of the sub drop offs, apologists have nothing to back it up. It was mentioned in the SE quarterly earnings:

"Net sales declined YoY in the MMO sub‐segment, but we announced at our Las Vegas FINAL FANTASY XIV FAN FESTIVAL in
late July that we would release our latest expansion pack “FINAL FANTASY XIV: DAWNTRAIL” in summer 2024 and the Xbox Series
X|S versions in spring 2024. We expect new initiatives like these to build up excitement around the title."

Of course wonder how much further the drop-off will be until summer 2024.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by technole

SE is quite aware of the sub drop offs, apologists have nothing to back it up. It was mentioned in the SE quarterly earnings:

"Net sales declined YoY in the MMO sub‐segment, but we announced at our Las Vegas FINAL FANTASY XIV FAN FESTIVAL in
late July that we would release our latest expansion pack “FINAL FANTASY XIV: DAWNTRAIL” in summer 2024 and the Xbox Series
X|S versions in spring 2024. We expect new initiatives like these to build up excitement around the title."

Of course wonder how much further the drop-off will be until summer 2024.

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Wouldn't be surprised if we see a 90% drop on Steam and a 50% on LB. :)

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Originally Posted by OliverQ

I'm not sure what the issue with the new Deep Dungeon is, but from my limited experience I haven't notice many people queuing for PotD either. I tried it for the first time this week to level an alt and ended up soloing it for a bit.

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That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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For someone bragging about ripping people off with RMT in the game...this would be a serious blow to your business. I think you just lie about everything. You don't do RMT, you don't do anything. Everything you say and do is a contradiction. You are probably either a kid who their parents pay his sub or a really sad adult.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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Time for you to move operations to another game then. Won't be any customers left for you here in another month.

I'm taking a break to play BG3. After I beat that I'll be back to FF14.

What a wild concept, huh? Taking breaks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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The entire game will die come Dawntrail.


Dual dye channels that is

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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Isnt the game already dead ? I'm sure I read you say that all the devs are "leaving up in arms because of the game's vision" ?

Is it going to die next month now ? Or is it the month after ?

I guess it's time to pack up our bags and go since our forum guru Noumenon said the game is going to die very soon

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Bg3 is not a live service game. Starfield had a 50% days after it released as well. That's pretty normal. XIV is an MMO where we have multiple indicators that people are not only unsubbing, but not even really active.

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Look at you, going all "BG3 is different from FFXIV, so it doesn't count."

Is this also you? :

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Everything Yoshi P touches lately assumes you're an idiot unfortunately. That seems to be his recipe for attracting a wider audience...you know in the years Elden Ring and BG3 are dominating video game discourse.

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The point of steam numbers is that when mmos have there own launcher they appear to receive around 10% of the playerbase.

Steam players and launcher players aren’t drastically different groups of people though.

So let’s assume ff14 had 10x December numbers. That’s places around 300k active daily’s which I mean is overall pretty darn good by mmo standards but it’s a massive hit from the memes of 2021.

Dawn will obviously spike the numbers again.

While it’s inaccurate to say the game is dying it’s accurate to say it’s losing significant numbers of players.

Personally I’d probably play this a lot more if it had challenging 4 man content.0

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

I'm taking a break to play BG3. After I beat that I'll be back to FF14.

What a wild concept, huh? Taking breaks.

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Agreed.

So why is FFXIV still charging money for a subscription? Clearly, everyone is supposed to take a break, correct? That's the core gameplay design? After all, you want everyone else to join you or shut up. The company should not be charging money for a game that they fully intend for people not to play. They took the game off the storefront during the Endwalker launch because people couldn't play, and they should do the same thing again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

Look at you, going all "BG3 is different from FFXIV, so it doesn't count."

Is this also you? :

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What a huge L. Try reading the first quote again. It's not that their declines are different, it's that they mean different things. When an offline or single player title sees a huge drop in players, that's to be expected because it is a linear experience where the campaign eventually ends. When people leave MMOs in big numbers, it changes the mood of the game and even eventually causes systems to break down.

Now go log on your other alt and like your posts again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

What a huge L. Try reading the first quote again. It's not that their declines are different, it's that they mean different things. When an offline or single player title sees a huge drop in players, that's to be expected because it is a linear experience where the campaign eventually ends. When people leave MMOs in big numbers, it changes the mood of the game and even eventually causes systems to break down.

Now go log on your other alt and like your posts again.

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Except a lot of people play XIV like a single player rpg. When the expansion drops, they play the story. Unsub until x.5, come back, play the rest of the expansion, do content until the next expansion releases.





It's why there's an uptick in player numbers before the next expansion drops, not just the expansion spike.



Also, for a game like bg3, where it's got tons of choices and options on how to play, you'd think it'd have a lot more staying power.



It's not a linear story.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Except a lot of people play XIV like a single player rpg. When the expansion drops, they play the story. Unsub until x.5, come back, play the rest of the expansion, do content until the next expansion releases.





It's why there's an uptick in player numbers before the next expansion drops, not just the expansion spike.



Also, for a game like bg3, where it's got tons of choices and options on how to play, you'd think it'd have a lot more staying power.



It's not a linear story.

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So what you're saying is that they should drop the subscription fee from FFXIV?

Cause I totally agree.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EverQuest

So let’s assume ff14 had 10x December numbers. That’s places around 300k active daily’s which I mean is overall pretty darn good by mmo standards but it’s a massive hit from the memes of 2021.

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we have been well above 300k active for a long time and still are way above that number.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

So why is FFXIV still charging money for a subscription?

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you paying for a game you hate is your problem. they dont force you to stay subbed it's all your choice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

Except a lot of people play XIV like a single player rpg. When the expansion drops, they play the story. Unsub until x.5, come back, play the rest of the expansion, do content until the next expansion releases.





It's why there's an uptick in player numbers before the next expansion drops, not just the expansion spike.



Also, for a game like bg3, where it's got tons of choices and options on how to play, you'd think it'd have a lot more staying power.



It's not a linear story.

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I didn't say linear story. I said linear experience. You could be the only person playing BG3 and it doesn't change anything about the game. Regardless of the options a playthrough of a single player game eventually ends. FFXIV theoretically doesn't until the servers go offline. If one person is playing XIV, many of the systems break down. Just because devs have added tools to make certain parts of playable alone doesn't make it a single player game because it has all sorts of other aspects-- how does a market board, FC, PVP, savage raid, etc occur without other players? I can't believe you are honestly choosing to continue digging in this hole. People don't want XIV to improve to keep people playing 24/7, people want incentive and content to perhaps keep more playing together in patch lulls. That's not unrealistic and it's not the end of the world.

The person who quoted me didn't know what they are talking about plain and simple. You cannot just take statements out of context and poof, success. It has to make sense. One statement was commenting on the implications of player loss (I never said the % drops were different aside from Starfield and I mentioned that bc it's so new and even that lost a huge number) and another was commenting on difficulty which means the same thing across any game. If we are trying to decide if Pokemon or XIV need harder content that means the same thing , the only thing that changes is the implementation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Agreed.

So why is FFXIV still charging money for a subscription? Clearly, everyone is supposed to take a break, correct? That's the core gameplay design? After all, you want everyone else to join you or shut up. The company should not be charging money for a game that they fully intend for people not to play. They took the game off the storefront during the Endwalker launch because people couldn't play, and they should do the same thing again.

---

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

So what you're saying is that they should drop the subscription fee from FFXIV?

Cause I totally agree.

---

SE charging your sub fee is totally reasonable because you agreed to it.

Excerpt from User Agreement:

Welcome to FINAL FANTASY® XIV (the "Game" or the "Service"). In order to play the Game, you ("You" or "User") must first agree to this FINAL FANTASY XIV User Agreement ("User Agreement") between you and Square Enix, Inc. ("Square Enix"). PLEASE READ THIS USER AGREEMENT CAREFULLY.

4. BILLING PROCEDURES AND RECURRING TRANSACTIONS
4.1 FINAL FANTASY XIV Subscription Fees. In order to access SQUARE ENIX's servers to play the Game, you must agree to a recurring subscription ("Subscription") with a minimum subscription term of 30 days, and pay a recurring subscription fee ("FFXIV Subscription Fee"). Square Enix may offer different subscription plans in its sole discretion. Further, Square Enix may offer you the chance to purchase additional features for your FFXIV Service Account, which we call "Add-ons" or "Options." Add-ons may be subject to either additional recurring fees or one-time fees. A "Recurring Fee" is a fee that will be charged on a recurring basis until you terminate your subscription. A "One-Time Fee" is fee that is only charged once. All fee rates will be posted at https://sqex.to/ffxivnafees and any changes to Recurring Fee rates will be posted with 30 days' advance notice and notice will be provided to the Game community. Square Enix may change fee rates at any time in its sole discretion, and will use reasonable efforts to notify you at least 30 days in advance of any changes to any Recurring Fees. All FFXIV Subscription Fees are billed in advance. All FFXIV Subscription Fees are non-refundable, with the limited exception in Section 4.7 below.


Remeber to click "I disagree" next time

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

So what you're saying is that they should drop the subscription fee from FFXIV?

Cause I totally agree.

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No one's forcing you to sub. Drop it if you don't think it's worth the cost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

SE charging your sub fee is totally reasonable because you agreed to it.

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What's funny is that you think this is some kind of gotcha.

As if there hasn't been a history of pay2play MMOs that have gone free2play in the past.

Quote:

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Remeber to click "I disagree" next time

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And you can remember to not click post next time.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

No one's forcing you to sub. Drop it if you don't think it's worth the cost.

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Nah, the subscription has well worth it for the forums alone.

But I ain't gonna argue against a free2play model either. More money back in my pocket.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

What's funny is that you think this is some kind of gotcha.

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It's okay though. No one on the internet would ever admit that, so I can look past it.

Quote:

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As if there hasn't been a history of pay2play MMOs that have gone free2play in that past.

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But you already signed your agreement. That's my point. You're basically arguing the things you agreed to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MisterNublet

And you can remember to not click post next time.

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wow
a blatant attempt to silence one's voice. just... wow

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

But you already signed your agreement. That's my point. You're basically arguing the things you agreed to.

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I've signed agreements with previous MMOs that were initially pay2play and years later they went Free2Play.

Just because I agreed to pay SE to play FFXIV right now, doesn't mean SE can't change their minds down the road and go free2play model. They have that option.

What the hell are you even arguing?

Quote:

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wow
a blatant attempt to silence one's voice. just... wow

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Need a subscription to post on the forums. You technically tried to silence me first by telling me not to agree to the subscription agreement.

Wow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aword3213

Remember to click "I disagree" next time

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Cool! And hundreds of thousands of people are doing just that!

https://files.catbox.moe/8o1w2r.png

You might like this now, but you won't like it when all your friends are gone and queues for new content can't be filled. Oh, what's that? It's just a single-player game anyway and you don't need other people to enjoy it? Then why are you paying $156 a year for it? Oh wait, hold on? Other MMOs have also died, so this one isn't special? Yeah, and where did we get our player base from? You think they're going to stay? Oh wait, I think I got you now. No one should be attached to this game anyway because it's a consumer product and life is ultimately meaningless? Then why are you here?
(All of the above are real copes that I have heard in the past month)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by caffe_macchiato

Snip

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Gosh, FFXIV must have been absolutely and utterly dead for 60% of its life! According to your amazing graph, the "activity trend" shows the playerbase is currently more active than it ever was in ARR, HW, or SB, and right on par with the release of ShB (and even a bit ahead of its first lull). Ain't it hilarious when people try to provide "evidence" the game is "failing" and just end up showing how well it's really doing? lol

Losing this many players isn't evidence the game is failing but it is a worrisome trend given that it exceeds previous "down periods" everyone keeps talking about ("servers are slways slow at .5 patch")

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

Losing this many players isn't evidence the game is failing but it is a worrisome trend given that it exceeds previous "down periods" everyone keeps talking about ("servers are slways slow at .5 patch")

---

It's still better than ARR when 2.5 came out.

It's still better than HW when 3.5 came out.

It's still better than SB when 4.5 came out.

It might be behind 5.5 but that's when the WoW exodus got into full swing and bloated the game numbers far beyond normal.

You can worry if you want. I'm not. I won't worry until after Dawntrail is released and we see how much the game is affected by YoshiP's vision of turning it from a MMORPG into a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's still better than ARR when 2.5 came out.

It's still better than HW when 3.5 came out.

It's still better than SB when 4.5 came out.

It might be behind 5.5 but that's when the WoW exodus got into full swing and bloated the game numbers far beyond normal.

You can worry if you want. I'm not. I won't worry until after Dawntrail is released and we see how much the game is affected by YoshiP's vision of turning it from a MMORPG into a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

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It’s worse than those at least from the perspective that it’s the only one of those that ended up worse off than it’s predecessor, you don’t write off decline as “yeah but there’s more players than 10 years ago when the game was in its infancy”

And I’m still trying to figure out how people thinking that the entirety of the WOW exodus falling away is either somehow a good thing or otherwise a foregone conclusion decided when it happened. 14 squandered the biggest injection of players it will ever get and people are still saying “yeah but more people are playing than in HW”, do y’all hear yourselves

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s worse than those at least from the perspective that it’s the only one of those that ended up worse off than it’s predecessor, you don’t write off decline as “yeah but there’s more players than 10 years ago when the game was in its infancy”

And I’m still trying to figure out how people thinking that the entirety of the WOW exodus falling away is either somehow a good thing or otherwise a foregone conclusion decided when it happened. 14 squandered the biggest injection of players it will ever get and people are still saying “yeah but more people are playing than in HW”, do y’all hear yourselves

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This tbh, I really dont understand this take of "yeah the game is more popular than in the past", not only it had a massive influx of players because of the wow exodus, but also natural growth, and then proceeded to literally almost lose all of that growth to go back to normal levels.

It's just... not a good thing lol.

It had the chance to easily become the biggest MMORPG by a pretty big margin, and failed at it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

And I’m still trying to figure out how people thinking that the entirety of the WOW exodus falling away is either somehow a good thing or otherwise a foregone conclusion decided when it happened. 14 squandered the biggest injection of players it will ever get and people are still saying “yeah but more people are playing than in HW”, do y’all hear yourselves

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Why on earth would anyone think that all the players that came over from WoW would stay when FFXIV is focused on the story journey, unlike WoW which was focused entirely on end game?

WoW's currently in the process of dying back out because it's having a hard time keeping new players due to the terrible experience new players have and the Dragonflight changes aren't scratching that itch sufficiently for the veterans, especially with the way Activision-Blizzard has started incorporating predatory monetization into the game with things like the Trading Post (that's a pretty disgusting story if you haven't heard what they've done to screw players over that had initially like the Trading Post concept).

There's a good chance that part of the WoW exodus that came then left will be back again on Tuesday simply because it is new content with a story that doesn't piss them off even if it's not a literary classic.

I'm sorry, but I've been playing MMORPGs longer than some FFXIV players have been alive. I've seen it all before. What's happening here does not worry me.

Populations decline mid-expansion then bounce back when the next expansion releases. Most gamers aren't interested in being tied to a single game and wanting to play a new release (or releases) to its fullest usually means taking a break from the others they have been playing. It is normal.

Long time players realize a game no longer holds any special meaning to them and they go off to seek out new games to play. In the meantime, new players pick up the game for the first time and replace those who have left, though eventually the number is smaller than those that left. It is normal.

There comes a point when yes, the population will start declining and that's okay. Times change. Tastes change. Expectations change. It is normal.

This game is no where close to dying, though. There are still plenty of players logging in and enjoying it. It has retained players from the WoW exodus. I should know - most of the members of my Marilith FC came over from WoW at the tail end of the exodus. They're still got a massive amount of content they haven't touched yet because they're enjoying repeating content they've already done.

Think what you want. It doesn't affect most of us because we're more interested in playing the game than obsessing over random numbers of questionable importance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It’s worse than those at least from the perspective that it’s the only one of those that ended up worse off than it’s predecessor, you don’t write off decline as “yeah but there’s more players than 10 years ago when the game was in its infancy”

And I’m still trying to figure out how people thinking that the entirety of the WOW exodus falling away is either somehow a good thing or otherwise a foregone conclusion decided when it happened. 14 squandered the biggest injection of players it will ever get and people are still saying “yeah but more people are playing than in HW”, do y’all hear yourselves

---

There are also more players playing than to ShB release. Everything you are spewing around here is really disingenuous. Get some real arguments and don't beat around the bush cause you don't have any ground to argue on.

Game now is more popular than to ShB release which was one of the best received expansions ever. What is your argument against that? You argue that "Oh yeah but HW" and "Oh yeah but 10 years ago" which wasn't even the point there. Like wtf kupo. Get a grip.

Edit: You do know that you can be unhappy with a product and that doesn't mean it is automatically bad or everyone else has to dislike it, yeah? Some peoples ego is just on another level.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ranaku

There are also more players playing than to ShB release. Everything you are spewing around here is really disingenuous. Get some real arguments and don't beat around the bush cause you don't have any ground to argue on.

Game now is more popular than to ShB release which was one of the best received expansions ever. What is your argument against that? You argue that "Oh yeah but HW" and "Oh yeah but 10 years ago" which wasn't even the point there. Like wtf kupo. Get a grip.

Edit: You do know that you can be unhappy with a product and that doesn't mean it is automatically bad or everyone else has to dislike it, yeah? Some peoples ego is just on another level.

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The game currently barely exceeds launch ShB right before an almost 9 month drought of zero content on top of a 7 month drought of content; that is not a good sign, and like I said the fact that SHB and EW got a massive injection of players and is completely failing to hold them is the problem, if you go from 90-100-110-200-110 you don’t say that’s a good thing because you are still on the long term track, you look at why you completely failed to hold that extra 90

No idea where you got the last part, you just seem way too angry in general but sure

And jojoya like I’ve said before you don’t just ignore that many people leaving the game who came into it (think why did the WOW refugees comes to 14 over any other MMO If they were so different that they were never going to stick, 14 had the opportunity to make them stick and completely failed by doing nothing more than barely even their usual release stuff) . With that many people you try to get them to stick, you don’t declare them a lost cause

And for people who “are so chill with the current game” y’all like pretending that we are all salivating over bad numbers when all we are doing is pointing out that losing a massive injection of players will never be a good thing, I know the game is not dying, I never implied it did, but y’all both are quick to imply that’s why I’m saying

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's still better than ARR when 2.5 came out.

It's still better than HW when 3.5 came out.

It's still better than SB when 4.5 came out.

It might be behind 5.5 but that's when the WoW exodus got into full swing and bloated the game numbers far beyond normal.

You can worry if you want. I'm not. I won't worry until after Dawntrail is released and we see how much the game is affected by YoshiP's vision of turning it from a MMORPG into a RPG that can be played solo or with friends.

---

All that tells me is that the most jaded players and second lifers stay in the game, which is something I can observe with my own two eyes. I can barely even get people to say hi in dungeons anymore. Cities are boring as hell with 60% of people in them afk or linkshell RPing. Thank goodness a patch is on the way.

And I've already said the population will bounce back. My theory is we won't see EW highs and then sharper, lower declines bc 7.0's "we're on a vacation" expansion will be mid and better games will pull people away. Only way this doesn't happen imo is if 7.0 knocks it out of the park. We will see. All evidence points to that not being the case since ARR isn't (posiitive) evidence and 7.0 is clearly more ARR and less EW.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

This game is no where close to dying, though. There are still plenty of players logging in and enjoying it. It has retained players from the WoW exodus. I should know - most of the members of my Marilith FC came over from WoW at the tail end of the exodus. They're still got a massive amount of content they haven't touched yet because they're enjoying repeating content they've already done.

Think what you want. It doesn't affect most of us because we're more interested in playing the game than obsessing over random numbers of questionable importance.

---

This. There is always going to be a rise and fall of players. That's just how gaming is. People aren't always going to be playing FFXIV when there is content to be gleaned elsewhere in the grand world of gaming. People will come for the story, leave once completed, then come back when more content shows up. Others stay for friends, others for Savage content, and more for other content they enjoy. Some leave because they have pressing IRL matters to contend with and take a break. Everyone has their own reasons to play and their own reasons to leave.

There was a quote from FFXI times that I remembered:
"During your time here, you will be able to talk, join, and adventure with many other individuals in an experience that is unique to online games.
That being said, we have no desire to see your real life suffer as a consequence.
Don't forget your family, your friends, your school, or your work."

The population is never going to be the same. I know a game that's been up since 2001 that is still ongoing despite the population change throughout the decades. FFXIV is a far cry from being dead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

That just shows the entire game is dying ;)

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well duh, pretty normal given the end of expansion, 70% of players dont sub during patches or even do savages. the game was never as livley as ppl thought it was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Turtledeluxe

All that tells me is that the most jaded players and second lifers stay in the game, which is something I can observe with my own two eyes. I can barely even get people to say hi in dungeons anymore. Cities are boring as hell with 60% of people in them afk or linkshell RPing. Thank goodness a patch is on the way.

And I've already said the population will bounce back. My theory is we won't see EW highs and then sharper, lower declines bc 7.0's "we're on a vacation" expansion will be mid and better games will pull people away. Only way this doesn't happen imo is if 7.0 knocks it out of the park. We will see. All evidence points to that not being the case since ARR isn't (posiitive) evidence and 7.0 is clearly more ARR and less EW.

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I never really said hi in dungeons even when I was new. And that was a long time ago. I don't really talk to people outside my friend group, and why should I? I almost never see them again. I don't strike up conversations with random people IRL either.