Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

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Originally Posted by ASkellington

As I've said previously Synastry could be fine if it worked for more than Benefic 2 (one may as well not exist). CI in theory wouldn't need 2 charges as you could Synastry 1 tank and use CI on the other for double tank busters (or do the same with Exaltation). I still don't understand why it doesn't even work with A. Benefic. That one is a GCD.

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To be precise it does work on A. Benefic, but only on the intial heal.

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

>YoshiP give us DPS rotations, please.
>"Go play Sage."
>Sage barely has a rotation, it's the same Glare/Broil/Malefic/Dosis spam as the others!
>"We streamlined Healer dps so that healers can focus on healing, their actual role."
>But we don't have anything to heal!
>"If you want more healing intensive content go play ultimate."
>But healing is still boring/barely required in 99% of the content!
>"Go play ultimate."

We might need the assistance of the japanese community.

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Good luck trying to get the Japanese community, they're almost as stubborn as the devs when it comes to healers. Especially on whm for some reason.

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Originally Posted by Acece

Good luck trying to get the Japanese community, they're almost as stubborn as the devs when it comes to healers. Especially on whm for some reason.

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Same can be said for you guys as well. Lets face it, the entire FFXIV community is stubborn on each other

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Originally Posted by Atelier-Bagur

Same can be said for you guys as well. Lets face it, the entire FFXIV community is stubborn on each other

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I really don't know who you are directing that at. If it's healers then you have not seen how flexible on our demands, we just want something to keep us engaged, anything.

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Originally Posted by Acece

I really don't know who you are directing that at. If it's healers then you have not seen how flexible on our demands, we just want something to keep us engaged, anything.

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And I agree. I just wanted to point that out

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Originally Posted by fxmaxximus

*insert toxicity here*

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Honestly, if all you got is "get gud" at everything, maybe YOU should play Healer and tell us what is wrong before making such a rude ass post.

Healers are repetitve and stale and with more expierence, knowledge it is getting worse.
And the worst is they play way too similar. When you know youre way around SCH go and try SGE or WHM. The diffrence is just how you place youre OGCD/GCD management, thats it. AST is just busy for the sake of beeing busy, just an unnecesary workload just for the sake of it.
As long people are not in the line fire it is cool. Healers do not just suffer from bad design - NO we are allowed to suffer by the rest of the community, suffering with approval - How nice ^^
If this is "the way" than i want a god damn "healer mount" and stop telling me how bad this would get, tanks got it and behold the game didnt explode.

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Originally Posted by Banriikku

i want a god damn "healer mount"

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I mean, this should be the least of it, but let's not settle. There's more to this situation than a cosmetic can fix.

IMO "if you want a challenge, you have to play the hardest content in the game" is a bit of a cop out. Sure, if you want to spend months wiping to the same mechanics over and over (unless you're lucky and have a good group and can clear it faster) that is definitely a challenge, but not everyone wants to spend hours and hours on one bit of content. I can imagine there's a much wider proportion of the community who would like some challenging content that is easily puggable, that is repeatable, that doesn't need a massive time commitment and offers unique rewards that gives some incentive to do it. Just something that isn't a choice between face roll, or a massive wall.

The point is: SE has the information needed, yoshidas explanation and talk about the healers confirms this BUT with all the information they make still the wrong conclusion.

The Dev team thinks, that healing is hard or stressfull and pressing 2 Buttons + OGCD for dps all the time is fine because they think "healers should heal".

I am not sure but the game doesnt provide this kind of game at all - we are not having WoW healer demand but they behave as if they were this "healing is stressfull and hard" mechanic in place. I am very sure they dont play healer and as long as yoshida or one of his lead devs dont play a healer and test it out we will be stuck with this. So i go for the what is realistic option : Glam, Mount and Minions.

The community tried, we debunked all the "false information" and showed them: healers play like dps but with no rotation. They think all healers have identities and ignor that WHM feel wonky when you play it (Lily interaction for example), AST feels like arbitrary workload, SCH feels like a WHM with a safety net and SGE plays like WHM without wonky Lilys.

The healer have no "theme". Except you take "bad game design" as a theme.
AST has infinite mana - why ? WHM has mana problems in longer fights even when you play right and gets punished for using its class ability. SCH has no interaction with its own class gauge and the Fey is now on crack and needs even less interaction. SGE play smooth BUT incredible repetitive. And to make it weird all healers have buttons you can throw away because extrem situational or just not worth/unnecessary.

Dont get me wrong Healers work, you can with every healer clear all content but the design is flawed and people like me that like to take the supporter role feel ignored by people that dont want play supporter and/or think supporter should be removed or worthless etc.. And such people design then the healer class.

All respect to the dev but they have no clue at all about supporter or healer in particular and ignor us because "you are so mean and trolling. Oh btw you are sundered and youre complain is invalid" or any other reason they can pull out of their hat just to not look at the healers. /rant end

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

IMO "if you want a challenge, you have to play the hardest content in the game" is a bit of a cop out. Sure, if you want to spend months wiping to the same mechanics over and over (unless you're lucky and have a good group and can clear it faster) that is definitely a challenge, but not everyone wants to spend hours and hours on one bit of content. I can imagine there's a much wider proportion of the community who would like some challenging content that is easily puggable, that is repeatable, that doesn't need a massive time commitment and offers unique rewards that gives some incentive to do it. Just something that isn't a choice between face roll, or a massive wall.

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Besides, it's not about challenging content.
It's about engaging gameplay at all difficulty levels.

Wiping 100h in an Ultimate because the same people keeping messing up a dance and kill everyone, resetting a 15min fight, doesn't make GlareGlareGlare more exciting. It doesn't turn 1111111 into 1335241121334 because you either dodge or die. Only very few things are recoverable through sheer heal spam in Ultimate like healers healbotting someone that got a feather rain dot in UwU or healing autos on a dps if the tank died.
And even if it were different: it's obviously not content that's designed to be done on a day by day basis, where you just hop in anytime you feel like it. So that would still leave the majority of combat-based ingame activities with 11111 spam.

One of the biggest problems Yoshida has is that he worries too much about neglecting casuals, to the point that he indirectly neglects everyone else instead.

What I mean by this is that he's openly admitted he's a hardcore gamer. He knows that many players are not hardcore gamers and just play for story, glam, housing, RP, ect. He doesn't want to create a game that's biased towards his own preferences. Therefore he's careful to consider the casual player and make sure the game is inclusive to them. So far great, I fully approve.

The problem comes in when the fear of bias or not accommodating the very casual player is so strong, that they push everyone else aside instead. Healers being a great example, are not designed to be "easy to learn, hard to master" and engaging for all players, they're designed only for the most casual players. There is no attempt to accommodate all types of players, even though it's not just about casual vs hardcore, but also a wide range of players in-between who simply want a game to challenge them a bit and keep them occupied.

Ultimate and Savage have sort of become the corner to put us in and keep us quiet. This is why we're told to get back in our corner and shush when we want the actual game itself to be enjoyable. It's not meant for us.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Healers being a great example, are not designed to be "easy to learn, hard to master"

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Healers have essentially turned into "Easy to learn, boring when mastered"

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

There is no attempt to accommodate all types of players, even though it's not just about casual vs hardcore, but also a wide range of players in-between who simply want a game to challenge them a bit and keep them occupied.

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Respectfully, as has been repeated numerous times, difficulty (challenge) and engagement are two separate things.

Even if your doing the most mundane thing the game has to offer, it should still be fun.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Healers have essentially turned into "Easy to learn, boring when mastered"

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I hope I never "master" it then, it sounds utterly miserable.

Although if we are talking healers I think they have limited their possibilities (by sticking to an even split of shield vs pure) and each individual healer really doesn't have a unique identity or abilities, except maybe Sage and AST at a stretch?

If I (gulp) compare with WoW you have:

Shaman - totems, bloodlust, kind of a pure healer - ranged
Druid - more of a regen/hots healer and can be ranged and melee (with cat form) - you have to plan for damage and when you use your hots
Paladin - melee, sword and shield, big dps, nice strong powerful heals
Monk - also melee, not really played it but it looks fun
Priest (ranged) - holy spec is probably like WHM with big aoe heals and strong single target, then Disc Priest, which is a pure shield healer - cast your shields and madly DPS to generate heals (Disc is probably the hardest to play)

The above healers don't just have 1 dps spell and a dot and IMO have different identities and play styles which makes healing much more fun (plus you have to handle way more incoming damage and its not all predictable).

I think the above contributes to the boringness of healers. Tanks are in a similar place IMO, but not as bad.

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Originally Posted by EgilTheStressedMage

I hope I never "master" it then, it sounds utterly miserable.

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Play it enough, let it live rent free in your head and you'll get there in a year or 2.
It's definitely not something you think about when you're a new healer. When you first start out you're just worried about you and yourself dying or letting the party die.
Eventually that fear gets replaced by being afraid that people think you're bad because you have no idea what constitutes being good.
Once you reach the final conclusion you realize all you have left are those 2 buttons.

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Originally Posted by Thoosa

Although if we are talking healers I think they have limited their possibilities (by sticking to an even split of shield vs pure) and each individual healer really doesn't have a unique identity or abilities, except maybe Sage and AST at a stretch?

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WHM is just AST but worse and easier. SGE is just SCH but different and easier.

Wonder if the dev team will even care about this post

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Wonder if the dev team will even care about this post

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Optimistic to think they've even bothered to read the post.

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Wonder if the dev team will even care about this post

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I'm sure if they didn't care about the other healer threads with multiple upvotes and posts they'll not care about this one...

*pokes last thread of hope* This thing ain't snapped yet so...

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Originally Posted by Minarisweet

Wonder if the dev team will even care about this post

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Outside of the JP forums, the devs don’t read the other forums. The community reps for that language supposedly read them then report back their findings.

The Dev Team or someone at SE reads this stuff. The last time Yoshida talked about healer and how he was explaiing their plan/vision made it clear they knew about the healers. They have all the information and Feedback but still come to the conclusion "cater to the audience that thinks healing is stressfull".

As a sprout, I think the best thing they can do to address this issue is to reduce tank self healing. I haven't experienced this yet, but I don't think tanks should have self healing, except maybe some weak paladin heals. Tanks should be good at avoiding or mitigating damage and healers should be good at healing. Once that health bar goes down it should be the healer's job to refill.

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Originally Posted by ArthurVeritaston

As a sprout, I think the best thing they can do to address this issue is to reduce tank self healing. I haven't experienced this yet, but I don't think tanks should have self healing, except maybe some weak paladin heals. Tanks should be good at avoiding or mitigating damage and healers should be good at healing. Once that health bar goes down it should be the healer's job to refill.

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I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

The idea that it’s okay to dismiss valid and persistent healer complaints about lacking DPS variety or healing complexity while playing as a healer for 99% of instances and the entirety of solo content by simply pointing to four extremely specific instances as if that’s the only thing that healers ever want to play is actually incredibly disingenuous and rude.

It feels like the director is sometimes looking for an easy out in these questions, and it’s kind of disheartening to see “You think you want it, but you don’t” types of responses from Final Fantasy XIV designers when I thought they wanted to avoid those problems that many players had with toxic World of Warcraft community-versus-designer conflicts.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

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Clemency I believe is on PLD because in previous titles the job has had access to low level white magic, such as cure. Instead of just giving them Cure from WHM they decided to make an independent healing spell for PLD in this iteration.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Clemency I believe is on PLD because in previous titles the job has had access to low level white magic, such as cure. Instead of just giving them Cure from WHM they decided to make an independent healing spell for PLD in this iteration.

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I understand that there is a tradition of giving Paladins some healing or white magic, not just in FF but in many RPGs.

I think even accounting for that it is a detriment to gameplay and would be best abandoned. Prior to the WAR rebalancing, practically the only time I ever saw Clemency come up in conversation were people saying PLDs just shouldn't use it because it's a DPS loss and an insult to their healers.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I still have trouble wrapping my brain around the fact that WAR has self-heals. That makes no sense to me. And Aurora doesn't really make much sense in GNB's job fantasy either.

I would be down for getting rid of all of them, including Clemency, since PLD still has other things that contribute to its "mage tank" role. However, I can see why they exist--to make soloing through MSQ content easier on tank players.

Which...I think that is a pretty significant problem with the game's design when you step back and look at it: that each tank (except DRK) has a self-heal *solely* to survive solo content, but that throws off the balance of practically everything else.

So I think if there is any way to remove this and still allow tank players to progress through MSQ content, it has to be done.

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The tanks having self-sustain has very little, if anything, to do with solo-ing MSQ content. Every single tank could still accomplish that without ever touching their self heals. They're only needed when you're meme-ing old EX or Savage fights.

They're added to give tanks flavor and survivability in harder content so they aren't solely reliant on a healer. Otherwise, they'd be even further reduced to DPS that occasionally press a CD. Furthermore, tanks having self-sustain isn't really the problem here. A Warrior could literally never touch any one of their self heals and at one healer would be even remotely stressed about it. After all, there's a reason Dark Knight is meta despite it's complete lack of healing. There's so little healing required it just doesn't matter. So the tank with none but deals the highest damage wins.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The tanks having self-sustain has very little, if anything, to do with solo-ing MSQ content. Every single tank could still accomplish that without ever touching their self heals. They're only needed when you're meme-ing old EX or Savage fights.

They're added to give tanks flavor and survivability in harder content so they aren't solely reliant on a healer. Otherwise, they'd be even further reduced to DPS that occasionally press a CD. Furthermore, tanks having self-sustain isn't really the problem here. A Warrior could literally never touch any one of their self heals and at one healer would be even remotely stressed about it. After all, there's a reason Dark Knight is meta despite it's complete lack of healing. There's so little healing required it just doesn't matter. So the tank with none but deals the highest damage wins.

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I would agree with your elaboration, with the exception of "further reduced to DPS" because they still have a suite of mitigation abilities and also care the most about positioning. Also, XIV is already a DPS-driven game--all of the jobs are already "reduced to DPS." The problem is that tanks get DPS mini-games while healers get single-button DPS spam.

I also think the "flavor" is quite irrelevant, since there are many different ways to give a tank flavor than self-sustaining through self-heals. If they in fact do need more to do outside of DPS, perhaps the raid design should focus more on forcing them to single-target DPS- or healer-busters. But I think healing themselves--on top of being, as you observe, mostly unneeded--is treading too much on the already quite narrow role of healers.

And blah blah I've already talked at length in this thread about how the self-sustain is really just the devs' way of making the game relatively fail-proof because XIV cares more about reeling in new casual players than challenging their skill. But I still think Arthur hit on perhaps the one thing that is the biggest culprit for healer irrelevancy.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

They're only needed when you're meme-ing old EX or Savage fights.

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This is just blatantly untrue. Both current EX's have been completed without healers due mostly to tank self healing.

P1N and P2N have been solod by WAR/PLD/GNB due to their self healing.

P1S and P2S have been done by an all warrior team. Why do you think that is even possible?

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I would agree with your elaboration, with the exception of "further reduced to DPS" because they still have a suite of mitigation abilities and also care the most about positioning. Also, XIV is already a DPS-driven game--all of the jobs are already "reduced to DPS." The problem is that tanks get DPS mini-games while healers get single-button DPS spam.

I also think the "flavor" is quite irrelevant, since there are many different ways to give a tank flavor than self-sustaining through self-heals. If they in fact do need more to do outside of DPS, perhaps the raid design should focus more on forcing them to single-target DPS- or healer-busters. But I think healing themselves--on top of being, as you observe, mostly unneeded--is treading too much on the already quite narrow role of healers.

And blah blah I've already talked at length in this thread about how the self-sustain is really just the devs' way of making the game relatively fail-proof because XIV cares more about reeling in new casual players than challenging their skill. But I still think Arthur hit on perhaps the one thing that is the biggest culprit for healer irrelevancy.

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As I have stated previously, the issue is two-part: Tanks and Healers built up power-creep due to the necessity of wanting them to "feel" stronger with each expansion, and the scaled down difficulty of overall content as they wanted to appeal to as many of the incoming player base as possible. These changes are great for the casual and newer players in simple content like Normal Modes and Dungeons, but hurts the fun and engagement of it's more veteran/hardcore players even in it's Savage tiers. The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content. As a tank, it does feel nice to have such a powerful kit that I can carry any party in 4 to 8 man content with, but in the same vein, it feels wasted and boring in current Savage content. This is doubly so with healers having a lackluster DPS rotation to fill in the gaps.

I am still of the mind that they should scrap or combine 1/3rd of healers healing kits, replace them with engaging DPS options, while scaling down tank sustainability and increasing DPS checks in some fights to help bring back the feeling of the trinity, thus allowing tanks and especially healers to feel more like the roles they are supposed to be. However, I do not think any changes to that degree will happen till after the next Ultimate, as I believe Yoshi and the devs are worried they might break something within the jobs and the next Ultimate that was already put on hold for so long.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is just blatantly untrue. Both current EX's have been completed without healers due mostly to tank self healing.

P1N and P2N have been solod by WAR/PLD/GNB due to their self healing.

P1S and P2S have been done by an all warrior team. Why do you think that is even possible?

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Non-existant/very low DPS checks as well. Yes the self healing keeps them alive, but DPS checks are supposed to be in place to give reason for needing DPS in the first place.

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Originally Posted by MellowMink

The idea that it’s okay to dismiss valid and persistent healer complaints about lacking DPS variety or healing complexity while playing as a healer for 99% of instances and the entirety of solo content by simply pointing to four extremely specific instances as if that’s the only thing that healers ever want to play is actually incredibly disingenuous and rude.

It feels like the director is sometimes looking for an easy out in these questions, and it’s kind of disheartening to see “You think you want it, but you don’t” types of responses from Final Fantasy XIV designers when I thought they wanted to avoid those problems that many players had with toxic World of Warcraft community-versus-designer conflicts.

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I really hope that this can somehow be propagated up to the director; I feel like he should take a little bit of time to write a more serious response to concerned healers that doesn’t sound like he’s being dismissive or wants healers to stop complaining about continued problems.

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Originally Posted by Ixon

As I have stated previously, the issue is two-part: Tanks and Healers built up power-creep due to the necessity of wanting them to "feel" stronger with each expansion, and the scaled down difficulty of overall content as they wanted to appeal to as many of the incoming player base as possible. These changes are great for the casual and newer players in simple content like Normal Modes and Dungeons, but hurts the fun and engagement of it's more veteran/hardcore players even in it's Savage tiers. The trick now is how do you make jobs fundamentally more of a challenge and more engaging to veteran players without taxing the skill floor and without making more casual/newer players a complete hindrance in a majority of content. As a tank, it does feel nice to have such a powerful kit that I can carry any party in 4 to 8 man content with, but in the same vein, it feels wasted and boring in current Savage content. This is doubly so with healers having a lackluster DPS rotation to fill in the gaps.

I am still of the mind that they should scrap or combine 1/3rd of healers healing kits, replace them with engaging DPS options, while scaling down tank sustainability and increasing DPS checks in some fights to help bring back the feeling of the trinity, thus allowing tanks and especially healers to feel more like the roles they are supposed to be. However, I do not think any changes to that degree will happen till after the next Ultimate, as I believe Yoshi and the devs are worried they might break something within the jobs and the next Ultimate that was already put on hold for so long.

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I agree with all of this. I just have to reiterate that I don't see how self-healing feeds into the tank fantasy "feeling stronger." I know in a roundabout way stuff like Aurora is just another passive mitigation buff, but it still isn't playing into the job fantasy of being "tankier," i.e. having thicker skin or a bigger butt. So the fact that it is stepping on healers' toes *and* doesn't really resonate well with the tank job fantasy tells me that it's probably bad design.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I agree with all of this. I just have to reiterate that I don't see how self-healing feeds into the tank fantasy "feeling stronger." I know it a round-about way stuff like Aurora is just another passive mitigation buff, but it still isn't playing into the job fantasy of being "tankier," i.e. having thicker skin or a bigger butt. So the fact that it is stepping on healers' toes *and* doesn't really resonate well with the tank job fantasy tells me that it's probably bad design.

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I'd have to take a strong guess, but back in ARR you had just PLD and WAR right? PLD was mostly mitigation and blocking of damage while WAR was mostly a SOAKER of damage with Defiance granting more HP and higher healing received. In HW we got DRK, which was just edgy PLD with it's main focus being on magic damage mitigation and TBN, a shield. They leaned a little more into WAR being more of a soaker of damage(that also had great synergy with it's Fell Cleaves and Bloodbath that became iconic with the job, turning into Nascent later), and gave Clemency to PLD which I think thematically makes sense with it being all Holy spells and all that. From there they sort of had their "identities" or main focus and just added more homogenizations while trying to keep them thematically different. When GNB came in, they kinda just threw in what was left; general mitigation, heal and shield on 2 of combo(rather than flat healing on 3 of combo like WAR or DRK), a regen that no other tank had, and a parry ability(Camouflage) cause we heard some DRK's missed Dark Dance. This ideology that they made fed into the tank thought of "needing to protect an ally" where PLD could flat heal, or cover, and provide mitigation; WAR providing healing through hitting things, DRK gave a shield and was still the "magic defense" tank with Dark Mind, and GNB with mitigation and a regen. All of this which got expanded on in EW.

Healing itself is just a part of "sustainability" and is in my opinion, the equivalent of mitigation or a shield when it comes to being tanky. Whether I tank a small amount of damage from mitigation or a shield, or take a large amount of damage that I heal myself up for, it's all apart of sustainability. Roadhog from Overwatch comes to mind in that regard. Though we have reached a point, through my reasons stated above, that it is too much and causing negative side effects on the healer role. They COULD shift the healing more towards Clemency, where your sustainability would be at a cost of your DPS so you would only really do it in an emergency, thuis relying more on your healers to stay alive. However, there is such an overall disdain for Clemency that I do not think they would go in that direction.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

I would agree with your elaboration, with the exception of "further reduced to DPS" because they still have a suite of mitigation abilities and also care the most about positioning. Also, XIV is already a DPS-driven game--all of the jobs are already "reduced to DPS." The problem is that tanks get DPS mini-games while healers get single-button DPS spam.

I also think the "flavor" is quite irrelevant, since there are many different ways to give a tank flavor than self-sustaining through self-heals. If they in fact do need more to do outside of DPS, perhaps the raid design should focus more on forcing them to single-target DPS- or healer-busters. But I think healing themselves--on top of being, as you observe, mostly unneeded--is treading too much on the already quite narrow role of healers.

And blah blah I've already talked at length in this thread about how the self-sustain is really just the devs' way of making the game relatively fail-proof because XIV cares more about reeling in new casual players than challenging their skill. But I still think Arthur hit on perhaps the one thing that is the biggest culprit for healer irrelevancy.

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The problem still isn't tank sustain though. Say they took away every self-sustaining tanks have this tier. What changes? They can't meme on P1N or old EXs; content that is largely irrelevant in terms of balance. It wouldn't impact a Healer's gameplay. You wouldn't have more to heal in P1N or even P1S if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. We know this because, hilariously, the speed meta is actually double Dark Knight—the tank with zero sustain. What needs to be addressed is the one button spam "rotation" healers have. Taking away tank healing won't accomplish that.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

This is just blatantly untrue. Both current EX's have been completed without healers due mostly to tank self healing.

P1N and P2N have been solod by WAR/PLD/GNB due to their self healing.

P1S and P2S have been done by an all warrior team. Why do you think that is even possible?

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This isn't unique to Endwalker though. Xeno used to do "Man-modes" all the way back in Heavensward. Tankcob was a thing before Warrior had Bloodwhetting. And you're ignoring those all Warrior savage comps were with fully BiS players, 99% players who barely killed it before enrage.

It's all entirely irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. Delete Bloodwhetting, Aurora, Clemency, Corundum and Equilibrium and what happens? Tanks can't solo Normal modes nobody cares about and Healers remain bored spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis because the outgoing damage is still laughable. All you've accomplished in this scenario is reducing tank gameplay and nothing else. Healers aren't healing more in Savage if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. Top groups don't even want Warrior because it's damage sucks relative to Dark Knight. The biggest irony is come 6.1, if LD is properly fixed, Warrior and Paladin will be reduced to prog tanks and abandoned instantly thereafter at the higher levels. They're self-sustain doesn't matter because the outgoing damage is pitiful.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

The problem still isn't tank sustain though. Say they took away every self-sustaining tanks have this tier. What changes? They can't meme on P1N or old EXs; content that is largely irrelevant in terms of balance. It wouldn't impact a Healer's gameplay. You wouldn't have more to heal in P1N or even P1S if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. We know this because, hilariously, the speed meta is actually double Dark Knight—the tank with zero sustain. What needs to be addressed is the one button spam "rotation" healers have. Taking away tank healing won't accomplish that.



This isn't unique to Endwalker though. Xeno used to do "Man-modes" all the way back in Heavensward. Tankcob was a thing before Warrior had Bloodwhetting. And you're ignoring those all Warrior savage comps were with fully BiS players, 99% players who barely killed it before enrage.

It's all entirely irrelevant for the reasons I stated above. Delete Bloodwhetting, Aurora, Clemency, Corundum and Equilibrium and what happens? Tanks can't solo Normal modes nobody cares about and Healers remain bored spamming Glare/Malefic/Broil/Dosis because the outgoing damage is still laughable. All you've accomplished in this scenario is reducing tank gameplay and nothing else. Healers aren't healing more in Savage if Bloodwhetting didn't exist. Top groups don't even want Warrior because it's damage sucks relative to Dark Knight. The biggest irony is come 6.1, if LD is properly fixed, Warrior and Paladin will be reduced to prog tanks and abandoned instantly thereafter at the higher levels. They're self-sustain doesn't matter because the outgoing damage is pitiful.

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But wouldn’t healers be healing more in say, dungeon pulls of said tools got taken away. Not really advocating for either side but i’m curious on their thought process on if they knew already things like dungeon pulls were easy to heal, why continue to give tools that make it even more irrelevant. As it is Warrior can basically solo heal dungeon pulls. I don’t remember it being like that in ShB but maybe i was out of the loop

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But wouldn’t healers be healing more in say, dungeon pulls of said tools got taken away. Not really advocating for either side but i’m curious on their thought process on if they knew already things like dungeon pulls were easy to heal, why continue to give tools that make it even more irrelevant. As it is Warrior can basically solo heal dungeon pulls. I don’t remember it being like that in ShB but maybe i was out of the loop

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Barely. Warrior is an outlier here, I'll admit, but dungeon mobs are embarrassingly weak. The only real difference between say, Warrior and Dark Knight is you'll actually throw a couple oGCDs on the latter whereas you can almost ignore the former. ShB was largely the same, just not quite as one-sided. Probably the only noteworthy change is Warrior wouldn't be able to entirely solo bosses.

I really hope Criterion will be good, but I also think a rework for dungeons is needed to streamline them a little.
What I mean is that I think the difficulty should go up with the levels, it feels like it's all over the place atm but overwhelmingly on the '' you can't die unless you do it on purpose '' side.

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Originally Posted by KizuyaKatogami

But wouldn’t healers be healing more in say, dungeon pulls of said tools got taken away. Not really advocating for either side but i’m curious on their thought process on if they knew already things like dungeon pulls were easy to heal, why continue to give tools that make it even more irrelevant. As it is Warrior can basically solo heal dungeon pulls. I don’t remember it being like that in ShB but maybe i was out of the loop

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IMO dungeon mob pulling difficulty really only depends on how well the tank knows how to use their mitigation tools and from my time healing is probably the only "true" occasion where I do need to use my full healing kit to to its fullest. I had a couple of mess ups here and there either because of my own fault or because tank wasnt doing its half of the role well enough and I think the devs lean too much into that situation which is why we get more "healing abilities" rather than giving us more dps options. I think healing in general needs to cull a bit of their toolkits in favor of dps'ing or useful buffing to make the difficulty of balancing heals and damage more exciting and rewarding consistently.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Barely. Warrior is an outlier here, I'll admit, but dungeon mobs are embarrassingly weak. The only real difference between say, Warrior and Dark Knight is you'll actually throw a couple oGCDs on the latter whereas you can almost ignore the former. ShB was largely the same, just not quite as one-sided. Probably the only noteworthy change is Warrior wouldn't be able to entirely solo bosses.

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For fun I did a test with a healer friend of mine where we did the entirety of the lvl90 dungeon,Dead Ends, with me on GNB, them on SGE, with two DPS. I only used Aurora and Heart of Corundum the whole dungeon and my healer still did not have to GCD heal(minus Pneuma or E. Diagnosis for Toxicon procs). I'm sure if I was on WAR I would only need Bloodwhetting, not to mention there are accounts of solo WAR lvl90 dungeon runs.