New summoner is unacceptable

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Originally Posted by tearagion

And I think it doesn't feel like a Summoner much anymore outside of demis, can we stop posting this subjective drivel please?

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It's like people have different opinions or something! What I have said and what you have said is clearly subjective. But I can and will continue posting it as often as I please.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It's like people have different opinions or something! What I have said and what you have said is clearly subjective. But I can and will continue posting it as often as I please.

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Astute observation, maybe with this revelation headway can finally be made on how absolutely barebones and unrealized the job is at level 90, compared even to the other brand new jobs Sage and Reaper.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Astute observation, maybe with this revelation headway can finally be made on how absolutely barebones and unrealized the job is at level 90, compared even to the other brand new jobs Sage and Reaper.

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What you see as bare bones I see as fun and engaging. A job doesn't have to have 14921051 abilities to be fun. I also think it is realized just fine.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

What you see as bare bones I see as fun and engaging. A job doesn't have to have 14921051 abilities to be fun. I also think it is realized just fine.

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Well there was always Machinist, Dancer, Warrior, Gunbreaker, etc. for people looking for a nice relaxing low-complexity job to enjoy, SMN was however deleted and replaced with something entirely incomparable. Asking for a revert would be unreasonable of me. Asking for a full job at level 90 is not.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Well there was always Machinist, Dancer, Warrior, Gunbreaker, etc. for people looking for a nice relaxing low-complexity job to enjoy, SMN was however deleted and replaced with something entirely incomparable. Asking for a revert would be unreasonable of me. Asking for a full job at level 90 is not.

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It is a full job at 90. You just don't like it.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Well there was always Machinist, Dancer, Warrior, Gunbreaker, etc.

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Hey man, what have we done? My Gunbreaker has like double the buttons of Summoner. :(

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

It is a full job at 90. You just don't like it.

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Your rotation doesn't significantly change from level 22 to 85. It's a minute of mostly instant casts with some traits and a couple oGCDs sprinkled in here and there between the pretty lights. Specifically brand-new buttons per minute you get 1 Astral Flow (oGCD), half a Searing Light (raid buff oGCD), an Enkindle (oGCD), and Ruin 4 (GCD). Really incredible stuff. To add onto that, you get 3 more new buttons by 86 of which the only ones that have a rotational demand are Slipstream and Crimson Cyclone, the others are pretty much just silver platter'd. Reaper from 70 to 90 gets far more to sink its teeth into than Summoner from 22-85 and it's also regarded as a very simple class.

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Originally Posted by Jandor

Hey man, what have we done? My Gunbreaker has like double the buttons of Summoner. :(

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I feel like my problem isn't much the amount of buttons, but something I feel with healers as well. Like, the skills have very little to do with each other. You pick what's procing and that's it, you don't build your burst and there's zero synergy between the skills if you ask me. Too spammy. And even if you decide to follow a "rotation", again, doesn't really feel like I'm thinking through the process at all? I don't have a large experience with DPS nor with old summoner, I tried the summoner because I couldn't handle doing the MSQ with any healer and was impressed with how brainless the class is. The skills are pretty, but there's nothing special about summoning something, and you get tired of the flashy skills really quickly.

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Originally Posted by IckeDerTyp

I miss dots... Again...

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i thot I was the only person who did...lol.

I definitely miss shadowflare.

Even though RDM is my main, I have played SMN since 2.0.

After leveling SMN to 90 & using it considerably in the 90 dungeons...i don't know...it's just MEH to me. This is just my opinion.

I miss shadowflare. I miss the DOTs. Fester means nothing to me without the DOTs. I would have settled for the for Ifrit, Garuda, Titan slapped on a DOT when they are first summoned

I think the stat squish didn't help any. Bahamut/Phoenix DPS seems a little weak.

Don't get me wrong, I love the aesthetics & I enjoyed leveling the job to see the changes but the job doesn't pop for me like it did in ShB.

I keep forgetting that I have a Ruin 3 or 4, barely use it.

I guess i miss the busyness of the ShB SMN. Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Your rotation doesn't significantly change from level 22 to 85. It's a minute of mostly instant casts with some traits and a couple oGCDs sprinkled in here and there between the pretty lights. Specifically brand-new buttons per minute you get 1 Astral Flow (oGCD), half a Searing Light (raid buff oGCD), an Enkindle (oGCD), and Ruin 4 (GCD). Really incredible stuff. To add onto that, you get 3 more new buttons by 86 of which the only ones that have a rotational demand are Slipstream and Crimson Cyclone, the others are pretty much just silver platter'd. Reaper from 70 to 90 gets far more to sink its teeth into than Summoner from 22-85 and it's also regarded as a very simple class.

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Well please enlighten us as to what a realized summoner would look like other than just slapping a bunch of DoTs to upkeep in there.

I think new SMN feels impactful and it feels like a summoner. It's kinda enjoyable to play but it is VERY simple.

I wish SMN had this little extra to add to the complexity of the rotation. It doesn't have to become a hard job but something to make it abit more engaging.
Plus I wish there was more of a reason to change up the rotation of the 3 primals.
I also kinda miss dots, but maybe i only miss them because the job feels kinda empty.

I wish there were a few more oGCDs to weave. As far as a DoT, I wouldn't mind one. They could make it Ramuh themed, have you summon Ramuh during the cast to apply the DoT.

I also wouldn't mind getting some cast times back in exchange for some more potency...it's a little silly that you only have 3 (or 2 if you use swift) hardcasts per minute...on a caster.

I think easy fix would be

Reduce demi cd to 50 seconds so you have to rotate your summons differently
Reduce demi duration to 10 seconds, we don't need more than that for 2 abilities
Change summons to be abilities instead of spells

That would bring us more complexity and cast times

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Originally Posted by Sunako

I think easy fix would be

Reduce demi cd to 50 seconds so you have to rotate your summons differently
Reduce demi duration to 10 seconds, we don't need more than that for 2 abilities
Change summons to be abilities instead of spells

That would bring us more complexity and cast times

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and completely unsynchronize our burst windows from the rest of the party unless we forcibly drift CDs? terrible idea.

Wouldn’t it be cool if Energy Drain / Siphon reset with each Egi summon, then during the summon Fester and Painflare became aspected to the primal’s element? They could even have different effects like Ifrit’s being melee ranged or Garuda’s having some kind of DoT. Maybe Titan could have utility like stun on its aoe.

The main problem with that idea is that different Egi’s have different charges, so like for Garuda you’d have 4 gcds but still only 2 Aetherflow for the oGCD. And then in Ifrit phase you’d have to either clip the GCD to use them or Swiftcast one of the Ruby Rite casts (and you’d still have to clip the second). Although, it’d probably be a good excuse for them to redo the Aetherflow mechanic to be more fitting with new Summoner.

I still wish we had control over when Everlasting Flight and Rekindle could be used too. They’re great skills and they’re pretty strong support for the healers (I know they don’t need it right now but that’s a different story lol), but since they’re only available for a 15 second window it feels like you never get to use them when they’re actually needed. I think it’d be cool if they made Rekindle an upgrade from Physick when you reach level 70 and learn Summon Phoenix. As cool as it’d if they made it a gcd, that would obviously be ridiculously powerful lol, so they could just have it upgrade into the current version of Rekindle with like a 45/60s cool-down. Or at least give us the option of choosing to summon Phoenix or Bahamut. Making Rekindle an upgrade to Physick would free up Astral Flow for Phoenix, so they could add a new ‘Phoenix morn’ to equalise the potencies. Maybe even have Bahamut grant some kind of small damage buff to the party to compensate for lacking healing. Everlasting Might?

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

and completely unsynchronize our burst windows from the rest of the party unless we forcibly drift CDs? terrible idea.

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Demis would on be sync during opener and 6min window which is usually the pot window. during 2min and 4min window you could rotate your primals. Like if you have more room in your rotation you could precast splitstream and fit 2 summons into buff windows which is almost same amount of potency than demi phase itself especially if summons would be ogcd. Energy drain itself have 1min cd so it would be always on sync. That would make the job instantly way more interesting to play compared to what it is now.

I like it more than old Summoner by far. The only thing I even have a complaint about is I wish Ifrit's moves didn't have such a long gcd to cast unlike the others. I guess it was for balancing reasons but it just makes me use Ifrit dead last now.

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Originally Posted by seraf

I like it more than old Summoner by far. The only thing I even have a complaint about is I wish Ifrit's moves didn't have such a long gcd to cast unlike the others. I guess it was for balancing reasons but it just makes me use Ifrit dead last now.

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You use your swiftcast for ifrit . Slow gem cast , SC , insta gem cast and by the time ifrit is available , so is SC

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Originally Posted by Izar_Chillen

You use your swiftcast for ifrit . Slow gem cast , SC , insta gem cast and by the time ifrit is available , so is SC

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Actually, if you're being optimal you'll want to use SC on Garuda to ensure her slipstream DoT is snapshotted with party buffs

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Your rotation doesn't significantly change from level 22 to 85. It's a minute of mostly instant casts with some traits and a couple oGCDs sprinkled in here and there between the pretty lights. Specifically brand-new buttons per minute you get 1 Astral Flow (oGCD), half a Searing Light (raid buff oGCD), an Enkindle (oGCD), and Ruin 4 (GCD). Really incredible stuff. To add onto that, you get 3 more new buttons by 86 of which the only ones that have a rotational demand are Slipstream and Crimson Cyclone, the others are pretty much just silver platter'd. Reaper from 70 to 90 gets far more to sink its teeth into than Summoner from 22-85 and it's also regarded as a very simple class.

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Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90 (All of 2 buttons, one of them being a 30s dot). Cry me a river.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90. Cry me a river.

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I'm personally pretty okay with new SMN but in their defense, a common pain point for a LOT of healer players is that their dps rotation is so stagnant and none of the current content requires the bloated healing kits they currently have, leading to a large majority of your kit seeing little to not practical use and glare/broil spam to win the day, which is extremely boring

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Originally Posted by DezereDawn

I'm personally pretty okay with new SMN but in their defense, a common pain point for a LOT of healer players is that their dps rotation is so stagnant and none of the current content requires the bloated healing kits they currently have, leading to a large majority of your kit seeing little to not practical use and glare/broil spam to win the day, which is extremely boring

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Deceptus is one of many healer mains who have given up the healer role because of that glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.

Even if we had the incoming damage to make use of our bloated healing kits, it would still be unacceptable because we still have do fates, hunts, solo duties, bozja, eureka etc.

Braindead is unacceptable state of affairs. The only reason sage is getting a pass right now is because its got the "newness" and is overpowered when in fact its the same 1 button spam nonsense and it plays like a mishmash of whm and sch rather than anything new.

give it a few months for the bottom of the barrel players to whinge about how they cant heal on sage and healers will be back to being in constant need.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Well please enlighten us as to what a realized summoner would look like other than just slapping a bunch of DoTs to upkeep in there.

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Any system to keep track of at all, at the moment the job gauge is is only useful as a timer to tell you how long you have to Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix and how many Aetherflow charges you have, a system that is frankly more vestigial than DoTs were and should have received much more attention than it has (which was none). There are many possibilities for expansion. You could bring back the concept of Aethertrail to augment the abilities your demi will use, say for instance you used all painflares, maybe Bahamut will only cast some AoE version of wyrmwave. Primal attunement could also be extended to the Aetherflow system, for instance maybe an Ifrit attuned Aetherflow gives Bahamut Flarebreath, maybe Titan gives Flatten, maybe Garuda gives Tempest Wing. Potencies adjusted, these could have different niches or interactions, or at the absolute least maybe you want one of each.

What I'm asking for I guess is for abilities to mean something to each other, right now you just go down the incredibly simple checklist in almost the same order every time without even the difficulty of finding a space to stand still and cast for more than ~7-8 seconds a minute. Bit of an unfair question from you, but I hope I've communicated that I do think this version has potential, and that Aetherflow and skill interaction are both pretty pathetic and what I would want to see change first.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90. Cry me a river.

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Okay? That's a problem too in my opinion, not that this is the thread for it.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Any system to keep track of at all, at the moment the job gauge is is only useful as a timer to tell you how long you have to Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix and how many Aetherflow charges you have, a system that is frankly more vestigial than DoTs were and should have received much more attention than it has (which was none). There are many possibilities for expansion. You could bring back the concept of Aethertrail to augment the abilities your demi will use, say for instance you used all painflares, maybe Bahamut will only cast some AoE version of wyrmwave. Primal attunement could also be extended to the Aetherflow system, for instance maybe an Ifrit attuned Aetherflow gives Bahamut Flarebreath, maybe Titan gives Flatten, maybe Garuda gives Tempest Wing. Potencies adjusted, these could have different niches or interactions, or at the absolute least maybe you want one of each.

What I'm asking for I guess is for abilities to mean something to each other, right now you just go down the incredibly simple checklist in almost the same order every time without even the difficulty of finding a space to stand still and cast for more than ~7-8 seconds a minute. Bit of an unfair question from you, but I hope I've communicated that I do think this version has potential, and that Aetherflow and skill interaction are both pretty pathetic and what I would want to see change first.

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Unless all those things are somehow balanced incredibly well, you will only end up using one of those attunements for Bahamut, whichever gives the most DPS gain. If they all give the same DPS gain then they are just different particle effects for the same ability. While I actually like the idea of summons granting buffs or certain party wide effects, unless you force players to cycle through all of them in the way they do now you will only be using one of these summons, again whichever gives the highest DPS gain.

Do you think Square soft could improve the summoner gameplay according to this topic?

Do they usually care about what players say?

I'm asking that because I'm not very happy with the new gameplay which is too easy to play...

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Unless all those things are somehow balanced incredibly well, you will only end up using one of those attunements for Bahamut, whichever gives the most DPS gain. If they all give the same DPS gain then they are just different particle effects for the same ability. While I actually like the idea of summons granting buffs or certain party wide effects, unless you force players to cycle through all of them in the way they do now you will only be using one of these summons, again whichever gives the highest DPS gain.

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The point wasn't the specific changes, and aside from that there are a variety of ways to incentivise using specific skills only a few times and filling in the gaps with potency. Probably the simplest example is MNK's basic rotation, keep up Disciplined Fist and Demolish. Their different durations mean that your basic rotation is the most varied of all melee dps.

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Originally Posted by neolopia

Do you think Square soft could improve the summoner gameplay according to this topic?

Do they usually care about what players say?

I'm asking that because I'm not very happy with the new gameplay which is too easy to play...

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historically they don't take in much of what the non-japanese players have to say

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Originally Posted by Recon1o6

Deceptus is one of many healer mains who have given up the healer role because of that glare/broil/malefic/dosis spam.

Even if we had the incoming damage to make use of our bloated healing kits, it would still be unacceptable because we still have do fates, hunts, solo duties, bozja, eureka etc.

Braindead is unacceptable state of affairs. The only reason sage is getting a pass right now is because its got the "newness" and is overpowered when in fact its the same 1 button spam nonsense and it plays like a mishmash of whm and sch rather than anything new.

give it a few months for the bottom of the barrel players to whinge about how they cant heal on sage and healers will be back to being in constant need.

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Yeah I have zero idea how and why SE determined that SGE is an advanced healer job that will be challenging and fun for veteran players.

It is just not.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Healers basic damage rotation is the same from lvl 4 to lvl 90 (All of 2 buttons, one of them being a 30s dot). Cry me a river.

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https://i.gifer.com/origin/2c/2cd20e...5ce7_w200.webp

If you didn't notice this isn't thread about how Yoshi-P screwed over Healers yet again, it's about how Yoshi-P screwed over SMN.

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Originally Posted by tearagion

historically they don't take in much of what the non-japanese players have to say

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Not true but we'll move along anyway.

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Originally Posted by neolopia

Do you think Square soft could improve the summoner gameplay according to this topic?

Do they usually care about what players say?

I'm asking that because I'm not very happy with the new gameplay which is too easy to play...

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They rarely make major changes to a job in the middle of a expansion cycle even went it's clearly needed. Thread can make an impact if; the Language speaking mods bring the ideas to the SE team and if the SE Team to include Yoshi-P would get off their damn high horse and really listen to the players feedback. I honestly think success have made the team rather arrogant from their humble beginnings.

I've played every iteration of SMN (played since beta), and this one is my favorite. It needs a bit more complexity, but overall I enjoy the feel of it.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

They rarely make major changes to a job in the middle of a expansion cycle even went it's clearly needed. Thread can make an impact if; the Language speaking mods bring the ideas to the SE team and if the SE Team to include Yoshi-P would get off their damn high horse and really listen to the players feedback. I honestly think success have made the team rather arrogant from their humble beginnings.

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I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

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Originally Posted by Skiros

I don't get that vibe from them honestly. Rather, it just seems like they're now taking feedback from players who don't care about the game that much, or who don't know what they're talking about. If anything they should listen less to feedback from players who demonstrably are unable to achieve or excel in their roles. They should not be taking feedback on SMN from people who don't even have it leveled at 90.

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You can't really tell if feedback is given from players who know the class or players who don't know the class. I think summoner is pretty dope right now, but it does feel lack it is lacking something to make it feel more whole.

I like the summoner....

I remember when it first started many people saying all they wanted was real summons and they didn't care if the rest of the job was doing nothing.

It's good to have one easy dps class for people that don't love DPS jobs... and it helps that it is so flashy.

I"ll just let Ruby Rhod say it for me on how the new SMN is:
https://youtu.be/ay4CNqCfE2o?t=154

Seriously though, the main issues isn't the changes made to the overall design. Even though who like the change all but admit it's lacking.
Its the amount of the removed.
It's the lack of any real mechanical design.
It's the lack of respect paid to players who enjoyed the old design.

This redesign was an insult to the player base and the dev team should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves to push out before it was truly ready. This version of Summoner is befitting FFXIV 1.0.

I have mixed feelings about new SMN. I've been a SMN since I started playing XIV in 2019 and loved it. Acquiring Tri-disaster and Bane made it really fun to poison mobs; by the time tanks gathered mobs, some enemies would already be at 1/2 HP. Trances reset the cooldown for Tri-Disaster. I never had issues managing dots. They didn't seem consistent with SMN lore to me but they were fun. Maybe the job needed simplification but a re-work!?

I agree 100 % with OP; 6.0 SMN just feels unfinished - as if they didn't playtest it. The Primals don't add anything in the way of unique choices, or combos. They play like visual gimmicks and quick ones at that. They appear in little sparklefart clouds, obscuring floor mechanics, and disappear. Needing a target to summon them is clunky too and doesn't make sense. Trances didn't need a target before 6.0 meaning you could prep; they had more flexibility.

Aetherflow is still here but it's just extra busy work when Energy Drain comes out of cooldown. It does proc Ruin IV ... for a VERY brief timer - more restricting than the stack mech it used to have - another loss of flexibility. Primals' timers also restrict the rotation. Although, flexibility would hardly matter since the Primals are barely unique from one another. SMN players don't have choices anymore. The rotation is now just summon, cast procced spell, use skills before timers expire. Repeat. Clunky and stale gameplay.

Worst of all - Carbuncle. It's now our little lost puppy doing nothing for us except we need it to use 90 % of skills. It puts this job at a HUGE disadvantage compared to other casters. I was initially drawn to the job for the pet and now the pet is just an obstacle to gameplay!

Changes I hope for:
Remove Aetherflow; it's unnecessary clutter on the HUD and with the current mechanics, the player does not need to pay any attention to it whatsoever. Or, at least tie Aetherflow to the Primals or Carbuncle somehow. I'd rather have dots than Aetherflow.
Change/remove timers on Primals and Ruin IV. The job DESPERATELY needs more flexibility.
Make the Primals more unique. Maybe unique buffs ? Maybe Geruda is better for mobs, Ifrit for bosses like before? Titan for solo play? Something - ANYTHING to make it worth choosing them.
MAKE CARBUNCLE A PET AGAIN. Right now, the pet is just an annoying requirement and NOT an advantage. The pet has to offer its own auto-attacks or buffs, or SOMETHING, or you might as well play a DPS w/o the pet requirement.

The concept of having Primals in the rotation is cool and brings SMN closer to its own job lore - and makes it very unique from other jobs. But as far as gameplay, there's just no reason to choose SMN over another caster.

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Originally Posted by Dyvid

I"ll just let Ruby Rhod say it for me on how the new SMN is:
https://youtu.be/ay4CNqCfE2o?t=154

Seriously though, the main issues isn't the changes made to the overall design. Even though who like the change all but admit it's lacking.
Its the amount of the removed.
It's the lack of any real mechanical design.
It's the lack of respect paid to players who enjoyed the old design.

This redesign was an insult to the player base and the dev team should be embarrassed and ashamed of themselves to push out before it was truly ready. This version of Summoner is befitting FFXIV 1.0.

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Exactly, it was rushed 100%.

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Originally Posted by ApolloGenX

I like the summoner....

I remember when it first started many people saying all they wanted was real summons and they didn't care if the rest of the job was doing nothing.

It's good to have one easy dps class for people that don't love DPS jobs... and it helps that it is so flashy.

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If you don't like DPS jobs, don't play DPS jobs. Catering to people that don't like playing healers or are just terribly at it is what lead us to the current state of healing, which is awful.

Design jobs for people who love playing them.

Honestly it feels like SMN doesn't even have a mechanic anymore. They don't need to keep track of anything, it has no decisionmaking in their rotation.
You just go through the motions of whatever is available to you at the time. It needs something to add a little complexity to it because right now it just feels all shiny & flashy without any substance to it.

A rotation that you can play with one button does not seem like a particularly well thought out rotation.

SPOILERS LVL 83 TRIAL: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6r3T1X0OXIU

As a start, I would get rid of aetherflow as an actual ability and make the aetherflow points have a proc chance on your other abilities similar to how bloodletter works on BRD. Having a dynamic OGCD would be a huge improvement. I would also get rid of the attunement requirement, and let people cast the primals/charges in whatever order they wished. Right now if you fat-finger a second primal after the first you'll be left stuck with a stack of charges and no way to use them. No idea how that work since in their infinite wisdom they decided to tie all 3 primals' abilities to THE SAME BUTTON.