Built-in Parsers

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

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I mean this as a genuine question - why do you think you can decide what is fun for other people? No one has a gun to their head to log in to their raid.

Also, to tie back in to the actual topic, the inclusion of ingame parsers wouldn't force everyone to raid. I don't know where this thread of conversation started but it's just you (and maybe others, I don't know) telling people they can't possibly have fun raiding. Maybe you should stop projecting.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Fun takes a back seat to getting it done. It's not fun to wipe over and over on a 3 minute segment of a fifteen minute fight
I'm not saying in general that fun is non existent, but fun really isn't why you do stuff like raiding, it's more the pleasure in achievement, closer to other things.

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It's not fun for YOU.

I enjoy learning the fight on my job and talking with my boyfriend about healing strategies. Yes, we want to eventually clear the fight, but that is the fun in it, learning it and learning how to optimize my job in the fight.

Wiping is a natural part of the learning process and does not mean we aren't having fun.

I mean like I said before you can stop acting like an omniscient mind reader now. You don't have that power. Fun is why I do raiding. You can't just paint everyone with your generalization brush.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

did anyone in the group notify people that standing in said spot can kill people? no? group fault.

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Originally Posted by Miste

Communicating a strategy doesn't somehow make people immune to mistakes so I don't even get what you are trying to say here. Mistakes happen even when people know the entire fight.

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As you can see I already answered your question. You are just ignoring it.

I already said that even if the group notifies and explains the strategy people can still make mistakes.

Also just because people make mistakes does not mean we all finger point, it is simply a fact that one person can cause a wipe by themselves. No one said to be rude to someone just for making a mistake, but owning up to your own mistakes is also part of being an adult. It is just a fact of this game that one person can be at fault for a wipe. No one is saying that a team should be rude to that member for the mistake; simply that mistakes need and should be discussed in order to progress.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

everyone here really should stop the vendetta against me as imo i did nothing wrong,

and the smile faces are letting ppl know im not being nasty/angry. That im trying to be pleasant.

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You did nothing wrong? You are trying to be pleasant? You can't be serious. You were completely rude to Hyomin just because she countered your claims. Calling her "elitist" and telling her to "grow up" and saying passive aggressive things like "they are more pleasant than people like you" and you think you did nothing wrong and you actually think you are "trying to be pleasant".

I mean if you don't want people on your case then don't be rude and accept it when you end up being incorrect about something you claimed.

If you actually think you were "trying to be pleasant" with that post I mean....yeah I can only conclude you are trolling at this point.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I guess you've never really practiced at something like that. believe me, it's work. You pretty much say it is with your words. The fun part after a while are the times you can ditch practice to blow off steam.

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I've just gotten so used to people being ignorant and assuming things on these forums that I'm not even offended anymore. I raid in this game. I practiced playing sports in the past, I practice playing an instrument. I like to learn new things every day and practicing things is honestly one of my few forms of entertainment. It's not work. I never said it was with my own words. You simply read it that way because you have an incredibly negative mindset and simply read anything you can with the most pessimistic worldview possible. If you think ditching practice is the "fun part," "to blow off steam," I don't consider that fun, I consider it lazy and unbecoming. The difference is that I'm not going to tell everyone who thinks that being goal-oriented is "work," that they're lazy. Unlike you, who is implying that people who are goal oriented, at some point, aren't fun or don't know how to have any.

I can't believe I'm yet again wasting my time with someone who can't see that other people view things and also live their lives differently, and that their opinion isn't fact or purely based on logic. It's just that, an opinion. Stop trying to force it on the rest of us. It's an incredibly selfish, and I can't believe I'm saying it unironically, an all around toxic mindset.

@riyah. Attendance or have times for raids are there for a reason. YOU either work or been busy all day. Last thing you want to do on a game you want to beat is to swipe over again and again with people who clearly dont have the same goal as you. Statics are made with same minded people. When I work 8 hours and do gym for 2, last thing I want to do is waste mine or others time. You talk like it's fine to Waste peoples time.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

did anyone in the group notify people that standing in said spot can kill people? no? group fault.

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Gave you like 8 scenarios earlier; Bourne gave a few more.

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you guys are missing a lot of details in your explains such as planning before hand, run/strat explination, leadership. Which is part of doing endgame content. If people fail at doing this stuff they are part of the fault for the mistakes of others.

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I'm gonna redirect you to the point from earlier.

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how are people missing this part.

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Because personal responsibility is a thing. Sorry you can't handle that fact.

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3 ppl cherry picking posts is really nothing.

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I hope you're not talking about me too. Quoting entire posts of yours and responding piece by piece is the opposite of cherry picking.

And yet you've yet to directly respond. Which is kind of a microcosm of the whole problem when you think about it: you have a preconceived notion of reality and ignore anything that contradicts that.

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nor proof i "don't know what im talking about" I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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You're right: I don't have proof. But I'll give you this: You either haven't done the content and don't know what you're talking about, you've been blissfully unaware of being carried, or you're maliciously lying.

Also:

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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You've now said parsers are bad. I will quote this every time you say "But I never said parsers are bad!" Might even stick it in my sig to drive a point home.

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I very much know what im talking about, you guys are looking at semantics while leaving out details.

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1. No clue what you're talking about because you haven't done it
2. No clue what you're talking about because of unaware carries
3. Malicious liar

Just because you're ignoring the details doesn't mean they aren't there.

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Each member has a job to do, a role to play.

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Agreed. It's not a DPS' fault when a tank doesn't mitigate a tankbuster, or a healer's fault when DPS stand in everything. It's not the pitcher's fault when the outfielders can't catch a popfly, nor is it the third baseman's fault when the first baseman fumbles with the ball. It's not the people in the box's fault when the person up to bat misses.

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A leader still needs to be a leader and communicate. The leader is suppose to organize, communicate, discuss the plan of attack.

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Who is the leader of a pug?

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If the runs plan goes south, everyone is at fault.

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Factually incorrect. I will not stop calling you out on it.

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A group is a unit, not separate pieces. Pointing fingers is childish. Even if you didn't kill the group, you just are much responsible for not doing your part in the communication for the run. you was a member of that group, you are part of that group, and should take responsibility. Pointing fingers isn't being a good team member.

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"Hey X, I noticed you aren't keeping up straight shot through the fight. It would greatly benefit your damage and help us over the enrage hurdle if you did that."

"Screw off Y, why doesn't everyone else just do more damage? We're all responsible for the damage."

"That's true, but we're all >2000 dps greater than you and maybe you could pick it up."

"No."

"Okay listen I am your leader and you will list--"

"Screw you Y, you aren't leader of dirt. This is a raid finder team."

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@ thread

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Yes?

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everyone here really should stop the vendetta against me as imo i did nothing wrong, but give my opinion on the matter. And say my beliefs.

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You put your ideas out into the open marketplace. Don't be surprised when they're rebuffed.

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but honestly, i never stated i hate parser, never stated no one should use them

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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all i stated was you don't need to use a parser to be good.

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Nobody argued that point. We don't need healthbars to be good either.

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all i stated was everyone in the group is/should be responsible if a run goes south. Mostly because that's the truth. If you don't act like a team, you won't beat content.

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You're both right and wrong. You need to act like a team, but part of being a team is being the best member you can possibly be. You're also assuming everybody who runs raids does so in a static: they do not. Raid Finder and Party Finder exist for a reason.

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acting like a team does include communication before a run, make sure people know what to do. Know where to stand. Use markers, macros with speech text to impotent skills (raise/voke/ect)

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And what do you do when people just do not get it, and do not improve, no matter how hard the group tries?

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If you just jump into content expecting a win, you are part of the groups issue if runs go south. You gotta make sure people are on the same page before you start. A leader who doesn't do this is just as much fault, as the person who stood in fire. Who is just as much fault as the healer who refused to raise them out of spite.

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Sorry, but no. If you sign on for a farm group, you'd better know all of this without needing more than a few words of greeting. Personal responsibility, Red.

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and the smile faces are letting ppl know im not being nasty/angry. That im trying to be pleasant.

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Your actions and namecalling toward HyoMin let us know in a far more potent and real way that you're being petty. The smileys do not help, sorry to say. HyoMin, without an emoticon in sight, has been far more pleasant than you.

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this post is gonna get cherry picked to hell so, ya not expecting much after this. lol

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You're welcome again. Your entire post, dissected and responded to piece by piece. Before I go though...

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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When? I played this game for years and parser never killed it for me. I was also in one of the best end game linkshells including Blugatr back the time. Please explain.
I also played on ps2 btw :) weird I never got kicked from my linkshells and did every single end game content...

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

epic post is epic

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Is it inappropriate to be the tiniest bit in love with you after this post? :rolleyes:

This have impressively shifted into a discussion about accountability for ones promises, a misguided understanding of the way a mathematically-based mechanics of a game work and plain out psychology opinions over the past two or so dozens of pages...At least, parsers are in the background there, somewhere...

Well...

1) There are many people that thoroughly enjoy their jobs. Largely because they feel satisfaction at the results and/or just cause they ended up being lucky on the coworkers. When you work with people that are just enjoyable to be around, competent at what they do and fair in how they act towards others, the work both passes quickly and is in no way a "chore". Thus, any comparison of raid culture (or any culture for that matter) to job is just irrelevant, as it's not the lone concept of what a "job" is that is a problem for people, but the specific environment of a specific job that they end up at.

2) When the game is deprived of its nice graphics and what not, it is clear that it is just a bunch of calculations done. If X is higher or equal to Y, you win, if it's lower, you lose. X is based on 1A, 2A, 3A and 4A, while Y is fixed. Simple, right?! A "clear" happens when the sum of the parts, as in, the sum of individual peoples damage equals or exceeds the bosses HP. Every person adds their share (fair or not), based on their ability and stats. If a person makes mistake, their numbers decrease as a result. If that number decreases to the point that the Y is not met before the players end up dead for a reason that would not have occurred if that mistake was done, it is that person fault. "Recovering from a mistake" is actually nothing more than salvaging as much of those numbers as possible. It's never a case of reaching what it would be without the mistake being made.
If the sum of losses from a mistake reaches a point that what would be cleared no longer is (enrage, party wipe etc.), then it is the fault of whoever made the mistakes, whether it's one person or all eight.

This is not a void. Performance of an individual is related to performance of others to a lesser or greater degree. If tank dies, the damage done goes down (healers need to revive the tank AND keep DPS alive, at least long enough to not be killed before the tank is resurrected, while the DPS may not have the luxury of worrying about their rotation and instead run with their tails between their legs here or there to lower the damage done to them, like to avoid cone AoE's that they would never be in if the tank would be alive). If the difference between the players gear and skills is not high enough to brute-force the fight, it actually takes only two or three more serious mistakes, even in leveling content let alone savage/extreme/ultimate. If they were all done by a single player...it's that players fault. The numbers are absolute, one cannot suddenly increase their potential just cause another person died. If they could, they would be at that potential to begin with. There is no "party member died, your damage increases by 20%" type of mechanics in this game (at least, not class/job based).


Ultimately, no one still even tried to answer two questions I posted quite early on, to my knowledge.
1) If the people that use ACT manage to remain civil due to the shadow of ban if they act out of place, why would the same shadow of ban stop being effective just because the parser is now official and not third-party?! The reason for the ban never is the parser, it's the action based on it.
2) Was there ever any actual investigation made into the effect of parsers on the playerbase as a whole in any game that officially adopted parsers?! I could not find anything of the sort with a quick search, and I'm confident in there not being such a thing, so I won't do a throughout one.


As I have said at some point, removal of the parser if it turns to crank up the number of harassment incidents is most certainly an option. As such, I entirely agree that a trial run would cause little harm. Ultimately, no matter the result, someone will complain, but without any actual data to go along with it (and Square Enix, let alone players, does NOT have that data), it's just a back-and-forth argument that is hardly going to convince anyone of anything. A trial run would go a long way to getting that data. Basing ones "guesses" only on current amount of harassment incidents is just that...guessing. And I can flip a coin too. I can keep on flipping it until it will come up heads or tails just how I want it. Guesses mean nothing at all.

@OP—

This is generally what happens when you bring up the discussion of a parser, or of parsing in general. The two sides will always clash. And you will never be able to get a straightforward answer to your question(s) from either so long as one side continues to endlessly debate with the other. I’m always one to welcome friendly debates, and I’m sorry that your original questions have remained unanswered. But such is the way of discussion forums, generally speaking.

I am pro-parser, especially in content where parsing can be an immensely useful tool in terms of progression (Ultimate, Savage, and Ex trials), and I am of the firm belief that implementing a condoned, built-in parser would in no way increase nor decrease the amount of harassment that currently takes place in this game. Like I have repeatedly said in this thread and all other parser threads made on the OF, people are going to be jerks with or without a parser, and people should stop blaming the tool; they should blame the person. A parser will not directly or indirectly affect the way an individual behaves—if they seek to be a twat, then be a twat they shall, whether or not they have a parser at their disposal.

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1. I do believe that, if a parser were to be built into this game as a toggable feature in PF, GMs would still take appropriate actions against any and all reported harassment, especially if there is sufficient in-game proof (via chat log) that harassment/griefing occurred. I doubt that, because a parser would now be considered “legal” in FFXIV, that they would start letting blatant cases of harassment slide. When it comes to people that would outright harass regardless, generally these people don’t really think about, nor care about, the consequences of their actions, so the threat of a ban probably doesn’t even scare them. Hence, why they act as such. Of course, they could also be under a misguided assumption that, because the GMs do not report on the actions they take, that they will get lucky enough to walk away with a slap on the wrist, instead of something more severe. Who really knows. Point of the matter is: even if parsers were officially condoned by SE, the consequences of using them for the sole reason of being a twat are not going to go away. Official parsers =/= a green light on harassment.

(Adding in here that criticism does not necessarily equate to harassment, especially if delivered tactfully and respectfully. Criticism—from yourself and from others—is necessary in improving performance. Constructive criticism is not a bad thing, and I really wish that people would stop perceiving it as such. Sure, if someone said “X, you’re only pulling 2k DPS as a DRG; YOU SUCK. Please uninstall the game”—that is a clear case of griefing/harassment, and the person should be punished. However, saying, “X, I see that you’re only pulling 2k DPS as a DRG. And I’ve noticed you haven’t been keeping up your Heavy Thrust buff, or using Blood of the Dragon. I can give you some advice to improve your rotation and numbers” is not harassment, but constructive criticism/advice. It all boils down to 1. How the criticism/advice is delivered, and 2. For it to not be perceived out of context, or as inherently malicious.)

2. As far as I am aware, there has never been any official types of research on the effects a built-in parser has on the community of an MMO as a whole. Most of the discussion about how a parser changed the playerbase is nothing but accounts of personal experience, which are naturally going to vary between individuals, and are not a very good/quantitative way to analyze the effects of parsers, especially when one side fights so vehemently to paint the parser in the light they deem appropriate; and really, to come up with raw, quantitative data would be quite a bit of a challenge, since most games do not tell people of any actions taken against individuals they report, much like the FFXIV GMs remind people every time they submit an harassment report.

Adding an in-game parser is a green light for using numbers as criticism, which some people perceive as harassment. But getting feedback on your performance is a good thing for high-end content, and I think a built-in parser would fit with the idea of making sure PC and PS4 players have equal opportunities. Additionally, it'll mean more accuracy of your parses, so no skewed community perception of jobs based on errors in DoT estimation.
As long the in-game parser only works if you are solo or in high-end content, and stays out of any casual stuff, I think it's only a positive change. It's better if the game tells you if you're bad than if a player does it.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is generally what happens when you bring up the discussion of a parser, or of parsing in general. The two sides will always clash. And you will never be able to get a straightforward answer to your question(s) from either so long as one side continues to endlessly debate with the other.

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I know. The reason why I brought those two questions back is more of an attempt to actually bring the topic back onto parsers themselves, more so than a hope of getting actual answers. I have my own opinion of what the answer is, which correlates with your stance on it, by the way. But these questions were originally supposed to serve the duty of making the anti-parser people actually consider why they have such a belief in the supposed negative impact of in-game parsers.

Clearly...that purpose they failed at miserably, keh.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

I’m always one to welcome friendly debates, and I’m sorry that your original questions have remained unanswered. But such is the way of discussion forums, generally speaking.

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They were more like early arguments. And I'm afraid that "it's the way" of more than just forums, which I'm sure that every person up for an actual discussion, where actual arguments are exchanged back and forth, find out quite early on, keh. A shame, really.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

(...)people are going to be jerks with or without a parser, and people should stop blaming the tool; they should blame the person. A parser will not directly or indirectly affect the way an individual behaves—if they seek to be a twat, then be a twat they shall, whether or not they have a parser at their disposal.

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You, me and multiple others have brought this up in this thread (I can imagine it being in past ones too, though I wasn't a witness of em myself), and yet, they are 'conveniently' ignored by those against the parsers. I just don't understand how someone can complain about not being listened to (which many of these 'anti-parsers' people claimed in this thread), while themselves not even in any way responding to some of the arguments brought up...Hence, why I stopped actively reading this thread for the past few days. There just was little point in a discussion where the core points I brought up would just be ignored. Though I am surprised the thread is still not 'dead', keh.


As for the research, it would actually be quite nice if one of the developers/publishers actually that have a semi-successful or successful MMO title made such a compilation before and after adding a parser...but that's not going to happen either, keh.


Still, I appreciate you putting time into putting out your stance on these questions, thanks.

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Originally Posted by kikix12

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well seperating people into "no parser" and "parser" is not going to increase/decrease df times. people will use what ever is going fastest.
Also no one is ignoring anyone , but the pro parser people still trying to teach the no parsing people how much good a parser will do , without having the negative impact in mind :)

Yes its easy to ignore the negative stuff , when it does not affect yourself ^^ (neither u cant understand why people dont want parsers since people lack the understanding for it)

Like in real life , people will only start to care about something when they are affected from it.

Good day to you :)

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well seperating people into "no parser" and "parser" is not going to increase/decrease df times. people will use what ever is going fastest.
Also no one is ignoring anyone , but the pro parser people still trying to teach the no parsing people how much good a parser will do , without having the negative impact in mind :)

Yes its easy to ignore the negative stuff , when it does not affect yourself ^^ (neither u cant understand why people dont want parsers since people lack the understanding for it)

Like in real life , people will only start to care about something when they are affected from it.

Good day to you :)

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What negative effects?

Do you mean your tinfoil hat conspiracy theory that widespread parsing will turn everyone into kick-happy trolls?

For like the tenth time please offer something that isn't antecdotal to back up your claims.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well seperating people into "no parser" and "parser" is not going to increase/decrease df times. people will use what ever is going fastest.
Also no one is ignoring anyone , but the pro parser people still trying to teach the no parsing people how much good a parser will do , without having the negative impact in mind :)

Yes its easy to ignore the negative stuff , when it does not affect yourself ^^ (neither u cant understand why people dont want parsers since people lack the understanding for it)

Like in real life , people will only start to care about something when they are affected from it.

Good day to you :)

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I've run into enough rude, negative, passive-aggressive and quite frankly unpleasant people in this game. It is not as if this game is sunshine and rainbows, then suddenly parsers will give us dark clouds and sadness.

I understand why people don't want parsers personally, but to pretend that there aren't already issues or that they will somehow get worse just because of parsers existing is just a bit too paranoid and negative even for me.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well seperating people into "no parser" and "parser" is not going to increase/decrease df times. people will use what ever is going fastest.

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If a person doesn't want parsers but still will go into a parser queue, especially since the additional option should, normally, make the no-parser queue faster (people wanting parsers would be added to the no-parser list if their queue would take too long, but the reverse would not be true), then clearly they weren't all that strongly against it as some would make me believe. I am against open-world PvP, so I don't play open-world PvP. In games where there are open-world PvP maps, I don't go to those maps unless absolutely necessary, and even then, I play those games only if that's limited to the bare minimum. I just don't do stuff that I don't want to do. Why would others be any different, when they have the option not to do it?!

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

Also no one is ignoring anyone , but the pro parser people still trying to teach the no parsing people how much good a parser will do , without having the negative impact in mind :)

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This whole thread is a suggestion about how to limit any POSSIBLE negative impact to the bare minimum, and there were multiple suggestions, the initial one in my opening post included, how to go about that. All those suggestions were nearly or completely ignored by the people that do not want parsers. Often they were twisted around (like happened with Taika's suggestion about making it limited to high-end content).

Yes, there were constructive posts from people that are opposed to the parsers. I want to make clear that I did not ignore them or "see what I want to see". However, that doesn't mean that all the points of the "pro-parser" group were contested, while I cannot remember a single thing from the "no-parser" group that was omitted. Heck, some of the "no-parser" groups arguments were responded to in a multitude of ways by multiple people, not just once or twice by a single person.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

Yes its easy to ignore the negative stuff , when it does not affect yourself ^^ (neither u cant understand why people dont want parsers since people lack the understanding for it)

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Whatever have made you think that it wouldn't affect me?! Of course it does affect me. I am actually as casual a player as they get. Heck. If parsers were limited only to high end content, then chances are that the parsers availability in them would be the only reason for me to actually start doing them, even then through all sorts of learning parties rather than clear ones, probably.

But you see, I look at both the bigger picture and the details. And I try to look from various perspectives. I may fail of course...but accusing me of being wrong on the basis of me not being affected and not knowing how it feels?! That's purely ignorance on your part, when I made myself quite clear where I stand in the early posts in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

Like in real life , people will only start to care about something when they are affected from it.

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If this would be correct, there would be no such thing as a "Crusade" or "Inquisition". People do a whole lot of butting in on another persons stuff, even if it doesn't involve them, just cause they feel like it. Politics, religions...stuff like that, which is normally banned on forums, are banned for the very reason that people have strong opinions on them even if they shouldn't matter to them in the slightest way at all.

I can understand not wanting a parser. The reasons have already been stated.

I would like to see something that tells the party that you're doing significantly less than you should be for the item level you're at. It doesn't even have to be strict, just something that will flag people who obviously aren't interested in trying.

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not the case, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

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Originally Posted by Khemorex

well seperating people into "no parser" and "parser" is not going to increase/decrease df times. people will use what ever is going fastest.
Also no one is ignoring anyone , but the pro parser people still trying to teach the no parsing people how much good a parser will do , without having the negative impact in mind :)

Yes its easy to ignore the negative stuff , when it does not affect yourself ^^ (neither u cant understand why people dont want parsers since people lack the understanding for it)

Like in real life , people will only start to care about something when they are affected from it.

Good day to you :)

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You have zero quantitative evidence that implementing a built-in parser in high-end duties will increase or decrease the amount of negativity already present in this game. The "pro-parser" posters in this thread have all achknowledged that, more than likely, things are going to remain just as they are, where as the "anti-parser" posters continue to act as if implementing a built-in parser in content where it matters is the equivalent to the end of the world, and that suddenly the amount of twats and toxicity is going to increase one hundredfold.

The only posters I have seen acting remotely negative in this thread are those against parsers, but they have yet to give any evidence to back up their claims outside of anecdotes. Because such evidence does not exist--they cannot see into the future, and see that people are going to just start kicking players because of a bad parse. Jerks will continue to be jerks, whether or not they have a parser to publicly use or not. Built-in parsers are not a green light for harassment. GMs would still continue to take action against any and all who are reported with sufficient evidence of harassing another person. That isn't going to change just because of a toggable feature in PF. Criticism isn't a form of harassment when delivered constructively, and if a person doesn't like parsers, don't join a PF where it's displayed that a parser is going to be used. Just like you wouldn't join a Lootmaster party if you dislike Lootmaster. It's that simple.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

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All of these are already punishable offenses now, although the first one has to be extremely cut-and-dry for it to not just be considered "differences in playstyle" (e.g., chat log evidence of a conspiracy to kick someone "because they are not good enough"). Regarding PFs, the party leader is allowed to set whatever restrictions they want; it's their PF. Regarding FFLogs, players can claim their character and opt to have all publicly uploaded logs hidden, as far as I'm aware.

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This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

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This exclusion already happens. If you look in PF, there are plenty of parties that exclude: players under the minimum ilvl set by the PF leader, jobs the PF leader does not want in their party, players that have not cleared the duty trying to join groups looking to farm. The list goes on. And, in private parties, the leader is allowed to set whatever rules they want--it's their PF; not a DF group. That's why those options to limit jobs and set an ilvl requirement exist.

Not to mention, the "high DPS or kick" parties already exist. And they will always continue to exist, parser or no parser. It's not like the implementation of a parser is going to change their existence, and neither side can prove it will be an increase or decrease. Again, you cannot prove implementing a parser is going to suddenly increase the amount of harassment that already takes place. Nor can you make mass assumptions like the last paragraph of your post:

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The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

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You don't have any evidence to back those claims up; so they really equate to little more than fearmongering.

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Originally Posted by Zafire063

I can understand not wanting a parser. The reasons have already been stated.

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I get not wanting to use a parser. But I don't think there has been a sensible reason stated for why they shouldn't be allowed as an optional feature. Why deny them from those who want to use them in their premade groups consisting of people who have joined knowing the runs will be parsed?

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Originally Posted by Zafire063

I would like to see something that tells the party that you're doing significantly less than you should be for the item level you're at. It doesn't even have to be strict, just something that will flag people who obviously aren't interested in trying.

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I really don't get how it would be in any way better to have someone simply flagged as awful instead of having the objective numerical context to measure all group members' performance. The first one will just make a person feel bad, the second option explains what's wrong in their performance so they're able to fix it.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits only will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

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Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

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Originally Posted by Taika

I get not wanting to use a parser. But I don't think there has been a sensible reason stated for why they shouldn't be allowed as an optional feature. Why deny them from those who want to use them in their premade groups consisting of people who have joined knowing the runs will be parsed?


I really don't get how it would be in any way better to have someone simply flagged as awful instead of having the objective numerical context to measure all group members' performance.

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How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

---

Kicking someone from a PF group is not abuse. Let's get that out of the way right now. If someone as the leader of their PF decides they hate the glamour, race, name, or server of a person, they are in their right to kick that person. It may make them a jerk, or anything like that, but it is not against the rules and it is not abuse. Anyone can make a party finder group, so it is not like you are being directly excluded because you cannot join one person's party.

There are already parties that discriminate in PF, demanding high dps or consistent dps from other players. We don't even have an official parser in game yet people will still demand these things and kick anyone who doesn't meet their criteria.

Mocking and harassing people over numbers is already punishable and even if a parser becomes official it will still be punishable.

FFlogs will always realistically be a grey area regardless of how anyone feels about it.

My main issue with this post is that it implies kicking anyone for their DPS or for underperforming or holding the group back is "abuse," or as if it's morally wrong. Even today, people are kicked from party finder groups, duty finder groups, etc, for many other reasons that more or less qualify for the same thing. Not being able to dodge AoEs. Not being able to meet heal checks as a healer. Not properly managing or using cooldowns at all as tanks. Failing the same mechanic every time the user is given that mechanic, the list goes on. Parsing and damage numbers should not be excluded from this list, just because it bruises people's fragile egos. To take a hard stance that "no one should be kicked for their DPS numbers at any point," you are essentially arguing that no one should be kicked from any content period for any reason at all, because the person would feel bad about it. You cannot argue that someone is more justified in kicking someone for not meeting a heal check and then say that the same person can't kick someone for not meeting a DPS check. It's a literal contradiction.

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Originally Posted by Zafire063

How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

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I've played mainly this one (endgame focused), but this one's been heavily parsed for the whole time, and all my groups have been parsed (both statics and pugs). I have not witnessed the behaviour you're describing. Earlier in this thread I checked there are well over 110 000 individual parses published for OS1 - that should tell you something about how commonly all party finder content is already parsed this moment. There's no reason to assume having an official parser would change the behaviour of the people who are already parsing this content. And, once again, treating people badly would still not be any more allowed than it is now.

Edit: To add, I think parties are and should be allowed to set their own entry requirements (talking about PF content here, not random groups). If the party leader wants to set "5k DPS or kick" or "1 mistake and kick" groups, they're very much allowed to do so. I won't join those parties, and everyone else has that exact same right, official parser or not (and as you know there already are groups like that, even without an official parser). People who wish to play more casually and set more reasonable expectations are free to do just that as well. And even if an official parser would be added, it should be an optional feature, available for those parties that wish to use it and not forced on those who don't.

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Originally Posted by ThirdChild_ZKI

Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

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This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

Ultimately, as an MMO, this game is "public domain". Whatever you do within, your numbers, your chat...all of it is "public" to a greater or lesser degree. Square Enix itself shows a surprising lot of information about players through lodestone.

As such, consent for sharing public information is not really required. That applies both in real world and in this, and there are very few limitations on what information is excluded (largely offensive or intimate one) from this freedom.

Parsers and the corresponding logs thusly are in no way restricted by regulations of any sort (whether or not that is "proper" is another thing entirely). It's just a matter of Square Enix not wanting to take chances on the possibility of them affecting the community negatively, while still requiring time and money to develop.

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Originally Posted by Zafire063

How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

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This is all anecdotal; not quantitative evidence. And whether or not it occurs in other games does not necessarily mean that it will or will not occur in this game if a built-in parser were to be implemented in high-end content where parser use actually matters (there's very little reason to have parsers in dungeons or even 24-mans because the content is relatively easy, and usually does not have the same types of DPS checks or rDPS requirements that Savage or Ex content does). If these were restrictions set in place in a PF group by the PF leader, they have the right to set whatever restrictions they want in their party. That's why PF has all those fancy options when you create one. In DF, any clear cut cases of harassment will be properly dealt with if reported. That isn't going to change just because a parser is a publicly condoned/built-in feature.

You're right in saying that some people do not need such a tool at their disposal, because they are only going to use it negatively and paint those that use the tool for "good" in that same negative light; people usually tend to pay more attention to the bad, and use it to generalize concepts as a whole. One person was a jerk and used a parser to do it? Now suddenly everyone who parses is also a jerk--because one guy was. But you blame that person for being a jerk; you don't blame the tool, nor do you generalize others who use said tool. It's not the parser's fault someone was being a twat. They would probably be a twat without a parser anyways. Because that's sadly how people are. But again, you blame the person, not the tool. (Note that I use the general "you" in the latter portion of this paragraph; it's not meant to imply you, specifically.)

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Originally Posted by Zafire063

How many MMO's have you played?

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Fights in many MMO has a DPS check while handling mechics. You either have
A: A DPS who fail mechanics or B; A dps whol fail to do enough damage or worse one failing both. If a person is doing 3% less than the rest which is doable in many fights in the mmo's ive played, they never got kicked. Honestly we talking drastic 20-30% less than people, hell some people do less than tanks.
I like how someone said they played FFXI and had a lot of toxic people with parsers, yet I was on ps2 and did the hardest fights in the game. I played BnS and Gw2 as well, no toxic people with parsers there that I have witness. Honestly 3% is easily doable in many fights and you have to kinda prove yourself there people get kicked for lets say doing 200-300 dps less than the other dps in most farm groups or statics. This shit happens a lot and nobody is getting kicked. If a person is doing 700-1k less than the third dps or second, they are bad.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

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I noted before that people are very much selective about what numbers go up. I simply noted that in my case, unless I hide my own (which has its own implications), or request that my entire team's parses not be uploaded if somehow my specific numbers aren't great, I simply have to let whatever goes up stand and speak for me. For that reason, and others unimportant to the topic at hand, I care very little for what goes up there. I DO care if my team and I perform well, but anyone trying to progress can see that right in front of them when it's happening. I'd agree it could use more tools, but largely, it's not the data and management that needs work, it's the players and how they choose to use it. I know that may be stepping on toes a bit to say that, but let's not act like we haven't seen examples of what I mean in this very topic itself.

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Originally Posted by Miste

snip

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and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

From my past mmo, and endgame experience + coil + extremes most of my deaths had been due to healers not healing. I also never said ppl are immune to mistakes, but if people lack communication they are partly at fault for a run going south. People just don't wanna be told they are at fault. They rather point fingers.

I'm not being passive aggressive. I met ppl in many mmo with similar mindset, and most of the time they are rude. I personally find a few of the post are rude for no reason. Some of yours some of theirs, some of other peoples.

Rude as in claiming I don't run content cuz I don't got mounts. Claim I didn't play 30 mmo the long term, which is easy in this day and age.



People like duelgunner who stuff apparently that my posts go above their head. I think you guys need to take a steo back and SLOWLY read your posts. you guys do come off aggressive, like heaven forbid people not want parser. People who don't, have experience mostly negative from the people who used them. And you lot are not helping with how some of your posts come off.

I just gave my 2 cents, and instead of a discussion on the how/why im just told I'm wrong "because" . How is that a discussion? Maybe stop assuming peoples mindset and actually talk instead of assuming.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is all anecdotal; not quantitative evidence. And whether or not it occurs in other games does not necessarily mean that it will or will not occur in this game if a built-in parser were to be implemented in high-end content where parser use actually matters (there's very little reason to have parsers in dungeons or even 24-mans because the content is relatively easy, and usually does not have the same types of DPS checks or rDPS requirements that Savage or Ex content does). If these were restrictions set in place in a PF group by the PF leader, they have the right to set whatever restrictions they want in their party. That's why PF has all those fancy options when you create one. In DF, any clear cut cases of harassment will be properly dealt with if reported. That isn't going to change just because a parser is a publicly condoned/built-in feature.

You're right in saying that some people do not need such a tool at their disposal, because they are only going to use it negatively and paint those that use the tool for "good" in that same negative light; people usually tend to pay more attention to the bad, and use it to generalize concepts as a whole. One person was a jerk and used a parser to do it? Now suddenly everyone who parses is also a jerk--because one guy was. But you blame that person for being a jerk; you don't blame the tool, nor do you generalize others who use said tool. It's not the parser's fault someone was being a twat. They would probably be a twat without a parser anyways. Because that's sadly how people are. But again, you blame the person, not the tool. (Note that I use the general "you" in the latter portion of this paragraph; it's not meant to imply you, specifically.)

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you know you can be less rude about replying to him and it isn't much an anecdotal, as a few people in this thread have had similar experience. Being dismissive over the experience of others doesn't help foster a good discussion.

DCUO has a built in parser, and imo it ruined the community. Instead of working as a team, people solo'ed trying to be number 1.

My g/f and I quit wow (at different times) simple due the community require you have a parser.

My g.f got lvl 46 warlock, and tried joining a guild to meet ppl. Every she asked guild required her to DL a list of add on, she explained she wasn't allowed to DL addons due to sharing a pc, and every reply she got back was "your lazy" "you're just looking for a carry"

I quit for similar reasons, the community wasn't great and too many requirements for something simple. WoWcrendor has several joke videos about it lol.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

Fights in many MMO has a DPS check while handling mechics. You either have
A: A DPS who fail mechanics or B; A dps whol fail to do enough damage or worse one failing both. If a person is doing 3% less than the rest which is doable in many fights in the mmo's ive played, they never got kicked. Honestly we talking drastic 20-30% less than people, hell some people do less than tanks.
I like how someone said they played FFXI and had a lot of toxic people with parsers, yet I was on ps2 and did the hardest fights in the game. I played BnS and Gw2 as well, no toxic people with parsers there that I have witness. Honestly 3% is easily doable in many fights and you have to kinda prove yourself there people get kicked for lets say doing 200-300 dps less than the other dps in most farm groups or statics. This shit happens a lot and nobody is getting kicked. If a person is doing 700-1k less than the third dps or second, they are bad.

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it really depends on the ff11 server, and when you played parser were not a huge thing around ps2 NA launch, it was around 2006-2008 that parser started ti be a thing with windower. and 2008-2011 with abyssea is went people were extremely cruel about them. raging in people for not gear swapping, even if they had no gear to do so. This is just during exp groups too. till the mentality switch to large leech fests using dungeon books.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

cherry picking

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please look up what cherry picking means :) As well as assumption.

You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative. Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out.

"hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage? then wait for a yes or no. If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.


also that is not saying the tool is bad, the community around the tool is bad.

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Originally Posted by akaneakki

When? I played this game for years and parser never killed it for me. I was also in one of the best end game linkshells including Blugatr back the time. Please explain.
I also played on ps2 btw :) weird I never got kicked from my linkshells and did every single end game content...

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we was on garuda >> lakshmi.

She also played on asura My g/f mostly played it, and showed it to me after the fact. She had a brief stint in bluegartr and saw some nasty drama in it as well.

She played ff14 from 2004-2011. I tried it around 2009-2011. the parser stuff didn't happen on garuda still 2008/2009. It got worst in 2010 with the "gear swap or kick" mentality in exp pt/meripo pt.

in fact my g.f got perma ban from ff11 forums just for saying "i don't like gear swapping it looks stupid" (i saw it, it did lol ppl blinking in and out every skills)

in the endgame shells we was in, they put numbers over skill. It got old, too much drams over loot drops, gear swapping and forced voip use got too much.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

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So you just want everyone to ignore your posts and stop replying to you, since apparently disagreeing is picking a fight? That'd be a dream come true.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

more antecdotes, rudeness, etc.

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An antecdote (or, in this case, antecdotal evidence) is anyone's personal experience being used as part of the reasoning for a specific decision. Based on your post I thought you might need that clarified. At one point you say something "isn't an antecdotal" because multiple people in this thread have had a similar experience. That does not change the fact that anyone telling a story about their experience without hard evidence to back it up (video, chat logs, whatever) is putting forth an antecdote.

Literally everything in your post (well, everything you put forth as a reason to not have ingame parsers at least - not the rude, snippy remarks you make at people) is antecdotal. They are a bunch of stories about you and your girlfriend.

Do you understand the problem with allowing antecdotal evidence (especially highly contested antecdotal evidence like yours) to weigh in to a discussion is? It can be made up. You can tell all the stories about parser toxicity you want - where is the proof? You don't have any.

You might argue that we take you at your word - okay, fine, but what about all the other people who are saying their experiences with parsers are very different from yours? If we take you at your word we have to extend the same courtesy to them. Now we have two opposing views that are both supposed to be true, that can't possibly be though.

Do you understand why all your stories are pointless yet? At least in the context of this discussion?

I would love to sit here and rip into this post and quote little bits of it where you were incredibly rude but I don't have enough charge left on my phone for that. I'm sure others will. You are on here insulting some of the nicest, most helpful people I've found on the internet and calling them rude for responding to you? I'm pretty disgusted by that, honrstly.

If you're getting so many negative replies to your posts doesn't it make you stop and think for even a second? That you might be wrong on at least some of this?

It should. You are. Please stop.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

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No one was rude until you started labeling people "elitist" and telling them to grow up.

Simply disagreeing with you is not rude.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you. No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

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You talk about how rude it is to pick fights with other people, yet here you are: still picking fights with everyone who disagrees with you. Still calling people names; calling people rude for calling you out on your own condescension and rudeness.

Also, the definition of anecdote:

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Anecdote
—noun

1. a short account of a particular incident or event, especially of an interesting or amusing nature.
2. a short, obscure historical or biographical account.

Anecdotal
—adjective

1. pertaining to, resembling, or containing anecdotes: an anecdotal history of jazz.

2. (of the treatment of subject matter in representational art) pertaining to the relationship of figures or to the arrangement of elements in a scene so as to emphasize the story content of a subject. Compare narrative (def 6).

3. based on personal observation, case study reports, or random investigations rather than systematic scientific evaluation: anecdotal evidence.

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There. Now that you have the definition of anecdote and ancedotal, perhaps you can start to use them correctly. Which you have not been doing this entire back-and-forth.

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From my past mmo, and endgame experience + coil + extremes most of my deaths had been due to healers not healing. I also never said ppl are immune to mistakes, but if people lack communication they are partly at fault for a run going south. People just don't wanna be told they are at fault. They rather point fingers.

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Healers not healing? They’re at fault for failing to fulfill their designated role in a duty. Not you, not the tanks, not the other DPS, not the entire party. Just the healers are at fault. If they weren’t topping people off, and people went down because of it, it is no one’s fault than their’s.

How and why does a healer need communication to say “RAID WIDE AOE DAMAGE PLEASE HEAL PEOPLE”? That should be inherent, especially if they are attempting endgame content. If a healer doesn’t know by the time they reach endgame that they need to heal people, they shouldn’t be doing that content. Heck, they shouldn’t be a healer period.

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I'm not being passive aggressive. I met ppl in many mmo with similar mindset, and most of the time they are rude. I personally find a few of the post are rude for no reason. Some of yours some of theirs, some of other peoples.

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Like your posts are rude for no reason?

And please stop with the generalizations and assumptions. You don’t want people to assume things about you, but it’s okay for you to just assume things about them?

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Rude as in claiming I don't run content cuz I don't got mounts. Claim I didn't play 30 mmo the long term, which is easy in this day and age.

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You have said yourself you have done no Alexander Savage or Omega Savage, yet you are sitting here trying to argue over mechanics that you have no idea what they are because you haven’t done/don’t do the content. Tank doesn’t mitigate Punishing Heat, a glaringly obvious tankbuster? They are at fault; not the healer, not the OT, not any of the DPS. A healer screws up Unstable Gravity in V2S and doesn’t get knocked back for Tank/Healer Long Drop, killing all 4 DPS? They are at fault. Same as if it was a DPS that didn’t get knocked back during DPS Long Drop, and who killed both tanks and both healers. Yet you continue to argue these mechanics and more in content you have never done. So you do not have the right expertise to sit here and argue with us over them.

Really, what you’re doing isn’t arguing, but trying to deflect and/or redirect the blame to the party. I’m sorry, but, as a BRD, if the tank doesn’t use a CD and dies, that is his fault. Not mine. It’s not my job to tell him “Now, PLD, please use Sentinel for that tankbuster—oh, nevermind.” Players in Savage and Ex content should know how to play their job, and not need someone to tell them: “That’s a tankbuster, please mitigate it next time.” “...I asked you to mitigate it...” “POP A COOLDOWN, PLEASE.” Even in learning groups, after dying to the mechanic once, a tank should realize “Damn, that hurts a lot. I need to use [cooldown] there so I don’t die.” Same thing for healers with AOE healing: “Dimensional Wave kind of hurts; I should definitely have Medica II pre-casting and ready there.” Or “I should use my Indom there” or “Aspected Benefic time!”.

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People like duelgunner who stuff apparently that my posts go above their head. I think you guys need to take a steo back and SLOWLY read your posts. you guys do come off aggressive, like heaven forbid people not want parser. People who don't, have experience mostly negative from the people who used them. And you lot are not helping with how some of your posts come off.

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Perhaps you should consider your own advice, and think about how your posts come off. When myself and the other posters who respond to you fight to remain civil, even in light of the condescending emotes and name-calling (which, yes, you have done, in case you have forgotten).

I’ve already read through this reply three times trying to remain cordial, though it’s extremely hard to do at this point.

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I just gave my 2 cents, and instead of a discussion on the how/why im just told I'm wrong "because" . How is that a discussion? Maybe stop assuming peoples mindset and actually talk instead of assuming.

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No, what you have done is argue that you’re right, and everyone who disagrees with you is wrong and/or rude and/or “an E”. You haven’t really added anything to this discussion other than paint more anti-parser users in a negative light. Not all anti-parser users are like you, I’m sure, but you aren’t doing the “no parser” side any favors with your behavior.

As for the “because”, that is false. Everyone gave you reasons as to why you were wrong. You just choose to ignore them because they destroy any and all of your arguments. I’m not going to list them all here—the walls of text posters left in response to you are there for others to see and judge.

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you know you can be less rude about replying to him and it isn't much an anecdotal, as a few people in this thread have had similar experience. Being dismissive over the experience of others doesn't help foster a good discussion.

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I wasn’t being rude. I personally found it more rude to say “How many MMOs have you played?” when that has no bearing on a discussion centered around a single MMO and a built in feature in THAT SPECIFIC MMO. And please, once again, refer to the definitions of what “anecdote” and “anecdotal” means.

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DCUO has a built in parser, and imo it ruined the community. Instead of working as a team, people solo'ed trying to be number 1.

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This is an opinion (as you say, “imo”). This is a PERSONAL OBSERVATION with no scientific or quantifiable data to back it up. This is a personal experience. Therefore, it is anecdotal.

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My g/f and I quit wow (at different times) simple due the community require you have a parser.

My g.f got lvl 46 warlock, and tried joining a guild to meet ppl. Every she asked guild required her to DL a list of add on, she explained she wasn't allowed to DL addons due to sharing a pc, and every reply she got back was "your lazy" "you're just looking for a carry"

I quit for similar reasons, the community wasn't great and too many requirements for something simple. WoWcrendor has several joke videos about it lol.

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More anecdotes.

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it really depends on the ff11 server, and when you played parser were not a huge thing around ps2 NA launch, it was around 2006-2008 that parser started ti be a thing with windower. and 2008-2011 with abyssea is went people were extremely cruel about them. raging in people for not gear swapping, even if they had no gear to do so. This is just during exp groups too. till the mentality switch to large leech fests using dungeon books.

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This seems like more anecdotes, since I still don’t see any quantifiable evidence to back up these claims. I have friends who played FFXI and LOVED IT. Never had anything negative to say about the community—one still occasionally plays it and got another one of my friends into it. But again, that is another anecdotal experience based off of their personal observations. Not quantifiable. Not solid evidence that parsers destroy communities.

The one day I played FFXI, while there weren’t many players around, the ones that were, were nice. They actually said hello to me and greeted me as a new player. That never happened when I first started playing FFXIV. But again, my personal experience doesn’t say anything about either community as a whole. Unless there is quantitative data showing “Parsers destroyed FFXI” or “Parsers make FFXIV players mean”, no one can say for sure, without a doubt, 100% truth, that either case is the case.

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please look up what cherry picking means :) As well as assumption.

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Dualgunner is not cherry-picking your posts. She responded to them in full, the exact opposite of what cherry-picking is. For others that didn’t respond to your ramblings in full, perhaps they just don’t have the energy to repeat themselves, or repeat what others have already said. If you want an example of cherry-picking, here is one: “John cherry-picked the verses from the Bible that he chose to live by, rather than live by the Bible as a whole.” Again, considering that dualgunner, myself, and so many others have tried to respond to your posts in full, and not just pick pieces to “attack” and ignore the rest, that’s not cherry-picking.

Dualgunner bringing up your statement of parsers is just her showing that you’re contradicting yourself with an earlier statement: “I never said I was against parsers”, yet you claimed “Parsers destroy communities.” That’s an insinuation that you’re very much against them, or at least view them negatively, and not neutrally.

I also love how you call people out for supposed assumptions, which you just assume people are being inherently rude when they respond to something they disagree with. Disagreement =/= rudeness. Miste is probably the least rude person I know on this forum, yet you called her rude.

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You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative. Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out.

"hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage? then wait for a yes or no. If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

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And yet, if that person is refusing to listen to advice and refusing to improve, why should a party be forced to deal with them? They very obviously aren’t willing to cooperate with the group (something you keep preaching—group content is group content, and all members should cooperate with the others); why should the group carry them through content if they aren’t going to pull their weight? Such things you don’t even need a parser to see (e.g., a Bard not keeping up Straight Shot or using songs, a DRG not using BotD or Heavy Thrust, a NIN not using Mudras, etc.).

I do my best to offer advice for jobs I am well-versed in in-game, and for fights that I am familiar with, but the minute someone I give advice to (be it for jobs or mechanics) gets snippy with me, they have lost all sense of deserving any sort of respect or courtesy. Respect and courtesy are things you earn, not things you demand.

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also that is not saying the tool is bad, the community around the tool is bad.

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Which is a broad generalization that you cannot support with anything other than personal experience and anecdotal evidence. Ever stopped to consider, if you are having so many negative experiences, perhaps the problem doesn’t lie with others, but with yourself?

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

snip

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Hey .
Here.
Pst.
Here here!
I will tell you a secret!
Most PC players that do ex/savage content run parsers, yet Gridania is not on fire. Don't tell anyone, k?

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and

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Fyi I played FFXI from 2003 to 2009. With months of break. You said first FFXI then you said just now it depends on server. You suddenly change your mind. I know what Windower Was, hell I even know what FFXIapp was. Dont just say parser toxic shit depended on server when you said FFXI. Also saying there are no mechanics that can one shot a group in Ff14 also makes me belive you dont know what the hell you talk about. And please don't talk like you have experience when you clearly just said you never did finnish omega savage for example. There was a lot of 1 shot shit in second coil too btw. Allganfield that was excuted proppely, groups faul when 1 guy is doing something weird with it? Or killing the big add you need to use for shriek in turn 7? People putting the yellow mark wrong way in turn 6 and gets the whole group eaten? I could go on for days about this honestly.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

and imo they was being equally rude :P same for you.

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No, rude would be posting this to the sheer nonsense this post comprises of. See, when I want to be rude, you'll know. :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

No one has a right to assume the stance of others, or pick fights with people who has different experiences.

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Yet you have accused literally everyone who had the gull to disagree with His Holiness Big Red they are rude. Furthermore, you go on the assume their stance on parses based solely on your bias opinion. Since you're ever so fond of suggesting people "look up" definition. I advise you look up what hypocrite means. :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

From my past mmo, and endgame experience + coil + extremes most of my deaths had been due to healers not healing. I also never said ppl are immune to mistakes, but if people lack communication they are partly at fault for a run going south. People just don't wanna be told they are at fault. They rather point fingers.

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And if they do communicate or it's a farm party where everyone should know the mechanics, if the healers can't heal through AoE damage, it isn't the fault of the DPS for dying. That is a ludicrous notion that highlights your nonsensical hypocrisy. Not more than a few pages ago, you said:

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

never in mmo is 1 person at fault for 8 ppl dying. everyone has their fair share in the blame, no matter what "examples" you try to use, you are missing details on how/why that even happen. just pointing out the end result.

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That is a direct contradiction to the above. If people can make mistakes, then they can be responsible for wiping a full party due to said mistake.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

Rude as in claiming I don't run content cuz I don't got mounts. Claim I didn't play 30 mmo the long term, which is easy in this day and age.

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You said:

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

i actually do said content :) jusy not at the moment, and i skipped alexander S because it simply wasn't my thing. :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

iPeople like Dualgunner* who stuff apparently that my posts go above their head. I think you guys need to take a steo back and SLOWLY read your posts. you guys do come off aggressive, like heaven forbid people not want parser. People who don't, have experience mostly negative from the people who used them. And you lot are not helping with how some of your posts come off.

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Let me make something abundantly clear. My current response to you has nothing whatsoever to do with parses but towards your misinformed, hypocritical and rude attitude. Delete ACT tomorrow and I'd change absolutely nothing in my response. Stop being a tool and take some accountability, Mr. "i got 30+ mmo under my belt, i got 10 years of mmo under my belt." :)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

I just gave my 2 cents, and instead of a discussion on the how/why im just told I'm wrong "because" . How is that a discussion? Maybe stop assuming peoples mindset and actually talk instead of assuming.

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They were returned due to high volumes of irony.

http://i2.wp.com/www.votersopinion.c...reme-Irony.gif

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

you know you can be less rude about replying to him and it isn't much an anecdotal, as a few people in this thread have had similar experience. Being dismissive over the experience of others doesn't help foster a good discussion.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

so please.. grow up and stop being an E.

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I can only assume "elitist"? Either way, there's that pesky hypocrisy again. Really ought to look up that word. ;)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

My g.f got lvl 46 warlock, and tried joining a guild to meet ppl. Every she asked guild required her to DL a list of add on, she explained she wasn't allowed to DL addons due to sharing a pc, and every reply she got back was "your lazy" "you're just looking for a carry"

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Anecdotal issues aside, you do realize people can and do already do this in FFXIV, yes? I can have a parse running and kick you for low DPS without ever uttering two words. I can also outright acknowledge I'm kicking you for low DPS. How? I just point to a nebulous example like "I watched your rotation." Funny how you continuously attribute toxicity towards parses yet there are two examples where I never mention having one. Now before you attempt to argue never having said parsers ruin MMOs. Just remember!

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

I did endgame in ff11 for 4 years before this type of toxic environment with parser/third party tools killed it.

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:)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative. Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

so please.. grow up and stop being an E.

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:)

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

"hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage? then wait for a yes or no. If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

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Player 1: "Want some tips to increase damage?"
Player 2: "Fuck off. Don't tell me how to play my job."
Player 2: *wipes to Tidal Wave*
Player 2: "WTF HEALERS? ARE YOU FUCKING STUPID?!"

According to the school of Big Red, Player 1's at fault for not communicating better. After all...

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

never in mmo is 1 person at fault for 8 ppl dying. everyone has their fair share in the blame, no matter what "examples" you try to use, you are missing details on how/why that even happen. just pointing out the end result.

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:)
---------

Emoticons brought to you by extremely high doses of sarcasm.

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

please look up what cherry picking means :) As well as assumption.

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cher·ry-pick
ˈCHerēˌpik/Submit
verb
gerund or present participle: cherry-picking
1.
selectively choose (the most beneficial items) from what is available.
"the company should buy the whole airline and not just cherry-pick its best assets"

Somehow "quoting the whole post verbatim" doesn't seem to fit that. Also where do assumptions come in? Are you talking about my doubt for your claims of MMO experience? That's not an assumption, that's just doubt. To be sure though:
doubt
[dout]
Spell Syllables
Synonyms Examples Word Origin
See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
verb (used with object)
1.
to be uncertain about; consider questionable or unlikely; hesitate to believe.

as·sume
əˈso͞om/Submit
verb
1.
suppose to be the case, without proof.

They're different terms to the point they can even interact with each other: you can doubt an assumption.

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You are kinda proving the point the the community around the tool are very negative.

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How so? Because I'm not only disagreeing with you, I'm showing you that many of the points you're making are invalid?

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Also for the communication part. That is not the best way to communicate. You can't give advice by belittling the person, or calling them out. "hey, <player 1> i main <player 1's job> want some tips to increase damage?

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

"Hey X, I noticed you aren't keeping up straight shot through the fight. It would greatly benefit your damage and help us over the enrage hurdle if you did that."

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Ya know, these two sound shockingly similar to me. Neither are forcing advice down someone's throat, though mine does make a passive observation about something that may have been noticed about another player's gamestyle.

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If he/she says no don't press it. communication =/= forcing advice down ppl throat.

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If he says no / don't press it, like the player in my hypothetical did, is it still the leader's fault that they're playing terribly? If so, you created a no-win situation in your frankly desperate attempts to be right.

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also that is not saying the tool is bad, the community around the tool is bad.

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Allow me to regale you with another one then:

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Originally Posted by BigRed5392

DCUO has a built in parser, and imo it ruined the community.

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Parsers could not have ruined a community (again, in your opinion (again, anecdote and meaningless)) if they were not bad. Therefore you claiming that they did means you inherently believe that parsers, the tool, are bad.

While you sit in your armchair pretending people are cherrypicking your posts, it seems like you're not even bothering to read the responses. Glass houses.

EDIT: I hit quote reply on the page this was posted in, didn't see the epic responses from Bourne, Moro, and HyoMin too. It's 5am for me, and I just finished a paper for class so I only focused on the part specifically addressing me >w<

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

l

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He even said that healers wiped his whole group in coil. Yet he says it's a group wipe because yeah.. it was the groups fault. When he clearly said healers didnt top them up.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

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This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

It's not a matter of excluding people, if you are under performing badly for the end game content you signed up for, I'm sorry but you have no place there - specially on a party that already has 7 other people ready to clear and are being held back by a single individual. In this case said player should take a step back, and do their research on their job.. Everyone has the right to learn, but no one has a right to ruin other people's fun and make the instance a frustrating experience. Excluding people already happens with the current parse, so that point is moot. What I would like is for people to be able to see their numbers and have a drive to improve, as many seem to be ignorant on how bad they are doing.

I helped some people clear O1S and there were instances where I was outdps'ing actual DPS players on a White Mage. This is also a common occurence on Ex Roulette - I'm not expecting people to perform at world level on roulettes, of course, but being able to outdps your healer in single target damage is the bare minimum I'd ask. Maybe - just maybe if they could see their actual numbers they'd think "damn, I could do better".

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

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Why exactly do people think making parses official is suddenly going to transform everyone into a complete jerk? This tool is already widely used. You act as every higher performance player who does a roulette goes around kicking people because they didn't reach 99% of their damage potential. As long as SE keep their policy of no harassment regarding DPS numbers (which is VERY strict, mind you), I think people's attitudes would hardly change.

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Originally Posted by Estelle9lives

This is an absolutely terrible attitude to have.

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Originally Posted by Xlantaa

If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

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Not only is this a horrible attitude but this also breeds bad players. It's pretty much saying; hey it's okay to be bad so we gonna do it for ya. If someone is a bad performer they can't be in the group, knowing this person can't either do mechanics or dps or both. It's simple. When 7 people can do it why can't the last one too? Like honestly too many players in the game let the bad players get away, thats also a reason why many are bad in the first place. Second reason is when they actually get told, they will think we are just saying it to offend them. There is so many reasons for why they think it's offensive but there is clearly one that makes them believe so: Players who say it's fine to be bad and let them keep doing it.